Florida Teacher suspended over anti-homosexual remarks:

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  • DOES NO ONE HERE UNDERSTAND WHAT A "CODE OF CONDUCT" IS? It's a bunch of rules that govern how a person potentially represents the business they work for, whether it be during work hours or not. He didn't choose to share his hate towards gays in a private setting, he chose to do it in the most public place possible. He therefore cast a bad light on the organization he worked for, therefore giving said organization no choice but to suspend him.

    What if he had said this in the teacher's lounge? we wouldn't be hearing about it
    what if he said this to his wife at dinner? we wouldn't be hearing about it
    what if he said it at his Bigots Anonymous meeting? we wouldn't be hearing about it

    IT IS NO FREE SPEECH. No one is saying he can't say what he said, it's the method he used to get his point across to potentially THOUSANDS of people.

    it's mind boggling that people don't see that.

    If I was to post a picture of myself on facebook naked with a ribbon on my junk, and it happened across the desk of my manager or HR department, even though I didn't act like that at work, I'm pretty sure I'd get reprimanded or fired, especially if people knew where I worked.

    it's pretty damn simple as far as I'm concerned.
    Gimli 1993
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    St. Paul 2014
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,495
    DOES NO ONE HERE UNDERSTAND WHAT A "CODE OF CONDUCT" IS? It's a bunch of rules that govern how a person potentially represents the business they work for, whether it be during work hours or not. He didn't choose to share his hate towards gays in a private setting, he chose to do it in the most public place possible. He therefore cast a bad light on the organization he worked for, therefore giving said organization no choice but to suspend him.

    What if he had said this in the teacher's lounge? we wouldn't be hearing about it
    what if he said this to his wife at dinner? we wouldn't be hearing about it
    what if he said it at his Bigots Anonymous meeting? we wouldn't be hearing about it

    IT IS NO FREE SPEECH. No one is saying he can't say what he said, it's the method he used to get his point across to potentially THOUSANDS of people.

    it's mind boggling that people don't see that.

    If I was to post a picture of myself on facebook naked with a ribbon on my junk, and it happened across the desk of my manager or HR department, even though I didn't act like that at work, I'm pretty sure I'd get reprimanded or fired, especially if people knew where I worked.

    it's pretty damn simple as far as I'm concerned.

    It's mind boggling that you don't see that the question is if the business/school/employer can enforce a code of conduct that applies to internet postings.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,495
    DOES NO ONE HERE UNDERSTAND WHAT A "CODE OF CONDUCT" IS? It's a bunch of rules that govern how a person potentially represents the business they work for, whether it be during work hours or not. He didn't choose to share his hate towards gays in a private setting, he chose to do it in the most public place possible. He therefore cast a bad light on the organization he worked for, therefore giving said organization no choice but to suspend him.

    What if he had said this in the teacher's lounge? we wouldn't be hearing about it
    what if he said this to his wife at dinner? we wouldn't be hearing about it
    what if he said it at his Bigots Anonymous meeting? we wouldn't be hearing about it

    IT IS NO FREE SPEECH. No one is saying he can't say what he said, it's the method he used to get his point across to potentially THOUSANDS of people.

    it's mind boggling that people don't see that.

    If I was to post a picture of myself on facebook naked with a ribbon on my junk, and it happened across the desk of my manager or HR department, even though I didn't act like that at work, I'm pretty sure I'd get reprimanded or fired, especially if people knew where I worked.

    it's pretty damn simple as far as I'm concerned.

    Oh, and it is also the question of reprimand versus fired. What's the correct course of action if they can enforce it?
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Hugh Freaking DillonHugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    edited August 2011
    DOES NO ONE HERE UNDERSTAND WHAT A "CODE OF CONDUCT" IS? It's a bunch of rules that govern how a person potentially represents the business they work for, whether it be during work hours or not. He didn't choose to share his hate towards gays in a private setting, he chose to do it in the most public place possible. He therefore cast a bad light on the organization he worked for, therefore giving said organization no choice but to suspend him.

    What if he had said this in the teacher's lounge? we wouldn't be hearing about it
    what if he said this to his wife at dinner? we wouldn't be hearing about it
    what if he said it at his Bigots Anonymous meeting? we wouldn't be hearing about it

    IT IS NO FREE SPEECH. No one is saying he can't say what he said, it's the method he used to get his point across to potentially THOUSANDS of people.

    it's mind boggling that people don't see that.

    If I was to post a picture of myself on facebook naked with a ribbon on my junk, and it happened across the desk of my manager or HR department, even though I didn't act like that at work, I'm pretty sure I'd get reprimanded or fired, especially if people knew where I worked.

    it's pretty damn simple as far as I'm concerned.

    It's mind boggling that you don't see that the question is if the business/school/employer can enforce a code of conduct that applies to internet postings.

    why shouldn't they? whether it be internet postings, or someone taking a picture of him holding up an anti-gay sign in front of city hall, it all falls under the same umbrella:

    say what you want, we won't stop you, but don't be dumb enough to think there aren't consequences if you put it out there for public consumption. make no mistake, HE put the SCHOOL in this position, not the other way around.
    Post edited by Hugh Freaking Dillon on
    Gimli 1993
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    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • DOES NO ONE HERE UNDERSTAND WHAT A "CODE OF CONDUCT" IS? It's a bunch of rules that govern how a person potentially represents the business they work for, whether it be during work hours or not. He didn't choose to share his hate towards gays in a private setting, he chose to do it in the most public place possible. He therefore cast a bad light on the organization he worked for, therefore giving said organization no choice but to suspend him.

    What if he had said this in the teacher's lounge? we wouldn't be hearing about it
    what if he said this to his wife at dinner? we wouldn't be hearing about it
    what if he said it at his Bigots Anonymous meeting? we wouldn't be hearing about it

    IT IS NOT FREE SPEECH. No one is saying he can't say what he said, it's the method he used to get his point across to potentially THOUSANDS of people.

    it's mind boggling that people don't see that.

    If I was to post a picture of myself on facebook naked with a ribbon on my junk, and it happened across the desk of my manager or HR department, even though I didn't act like that at work, I'm pretty sure I'd get reprimanded or fired, especially if people knew where I worked.

    it's pretty damn simple as far as I'm concerned.

    Oh, and it is also the question of reprimand versus fired. What's the correct course of action if they can enforce it?

    to me, in a case of racism or bigotry, FIRED.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • Does it not say anything to his merit that a group like the KKK has threatened to protest in his defense??

    No that means nothing. Only that they are capitalizing on the publicity involved in this case.

    agreed. if he didn't enlist them, that is. :lol:
    Gimli 1993
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    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • pandora wrote:
    You sound filled with hate and disgust just like the teacher we are discussing

    in almost every post to me you have made snide comments when you do not even know me :?

    just like the man we are talking about

    hate makes more hate

    love makes more love

    I guess if you don't believe in the power of love you will just stay a hater no better than the ones you hate

    to be quite honest, pandora, it seems if someone isn't one of your followers, they are somehow filled with hate and you seem to be so condescending because you pity them.

    it's getting a bit tired. can we just argue the subject instead of you judging us for seemingly judging someone else? do you not see how much judgment you toss around, while telling us to stop judging others?

    I'm as much about love and nature and earth as the next person, but honestly, it's not the answer to every problem in the world.

    if it worked, it would be, but it doesn't, so it's not.
    Gimli 1993
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  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    edited August 2011
    pandora wrote:
    You sound filled with hate and disgust just like the teacher we are discussing

    in almost every post to me you have made snide comments when you do not even know me :?

    just like the man we are talking about

    hate makes more hate

    love makes more love

    I guess if you don't believe in the power of love you will just stay a hater no better than the ones you hate

    to be quite honest, pandora, it seems if someone isn't one of your followers, they are somehow filled with hate and you seem to be so condescending because you pity them.

    it's getting a bit tired. can we just argue the subject instead of you judging us for seemingly judging someone else? do you not see how much judgment you toss around, while telling us to stop judging others?

    I'm as much about love and nature and earth as the next person, but honestly, it's not the answer to every problem in the world.

    if it worked, it would be, but it doesn't, so it's not.


    lets post the entire conversation please and not take my words out of context

    pandora wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    I would like to see all people stop being so judgmental and abusive to each other

    it starts with each and everyone of us

    we are all role models each and every one of us

    we can start right here on the best band in the universe's website! 8-)

    we can try to be always kind and respectful to each
    other and try not to presume and judge but just love :D

    Yeah, that hippie-dippie lesbo-love bullshit and the "Let's just all love each other" crap is what lead to things like Prop 8 passing and DOMA.

    Sorry... you have your love ins, I'll go fight for my rights and stand up for myself and the gay kids in that asshole's classroom who are too scared to stand up for themselves.
    You sound filled with hate and disgust just like the teacher we are discussing

    in almost every post to me you have made snide comments when you do not even know me :?

    just like the man we are talking about

    hate makes more hate

    love makes more love

    I guess if you don't believe in the power of love you will just stay a hater no better than the ones you hate

    I stand by what I said the quote is filled with hate and judgement for others
    and did they call me a lesbo :? :wtf:

    thats super rude not a nice term ... some of my dearest friends are gay women...
    I take great offense to that and how can you defend that?

    I thought everyone was working on kindness and respect... guess not.
    Post edited by pandora on
  • Ugh.

    No I did NOT call you "a lesbo."

    It's probably a pretty mean-spirited term but "Lesbo-Love" is used to describe that earthy, hippe, "free to be you and me" crap you get in "chicken soup for the soul" books, Hallmark cards and embroidered wall hangings.

    Eesh.
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    EmBleve wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    I'm not sure anyone here said it was not hate

    you read the words you feel the hate

    you can read words here and feel the hate

    but people have the right to hate and express that even though we wish they wouldn't
    Yes, they do have the right to express that. They also have an obligation to their profession and all it entails. It was irresponsible and it is ignorant, imo. I would not want him anywhere near my kid (unless I join the white aryan nation, which is most unlikely).
    yes I know about the rule remember and totally agree because of the rule he should not have spoke out.

    I am saying a rule like that should and hopefully will be challenged and brought to where it should be

    back to the workplace and classroom

    not to entail private time... not in a bar, not on the phone, not on a website
    that allows personal opinion rants

    Speaking one's opinions is a basic freedom.... each of us enjoys.

    What I have heard, if it wasn't for the great rules here, word choices
    about this man would have been more rant-ish... that's saying it mildly
    also probably directed at those defending the fact he should not be fired over this.

    And hate makes more hate but mostly solves absolutely nothing.

    Don't do what you don't like others doing....
    if you don't like someone being offensive to others... don't do it yourself.
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    Ugh.

    No I did NOT call you "a lesbo."

    It's probably a pretty mean-spirited term but "Lesbo-Love" is used to describe that earthy, hippe, "free to be you and me" crap you get in "chicken soup for the soul" books, Hallmark cards and embroidered wall hangings.

    Eesh.
    I'm sure thats loved by many and still derogatory and as you say yourself... mean spirited :?

    At least you admit it

    Again we are going off topic by conversing how bout you not read my posts and I won't read yours

    we don't want to lock this up
  • EmBleveEmBleve Posts: 3,019
    pandora wrote:
    yes I know about the rule remember and totally agree because of the rule he should not have spoke out.

    I am saying a rule like that should and hopefully will be challenged and brought to where it should be

    back to the workplace and classroom

    not to entail private time... not in a bar, not on the phone, not on a website
    that allows personal opinion rants

    Speaking one's opinions is a basic freedom.... each of us enjoys.

    What I have heard, if it wasn't for the great rules here, word choices
    about this man would have been more rant-ish... that's saying it mildly
    also probably directed at those defending the fact he should not be fired over this.

    And hate makes more hate but mostly solves absolutely nothing.

    Don't do what you don't like others doing....
    if you don't like someone being offensive to others... don't do it yourself.
    I think Hugh said it pretty clearly above, at least I can understand what he's saying and vice versa:
    DOES NO ONE HERE UNDERSTAND WHAT A "CODE OF CONDUCT" IS? It's a bunch of rules that govern how a person potentially represents the business they work for, whether it be during work hours or not. He didn't choose to share his hate towards gays in a private setting, he chose to do it in the most public place possible. He therefore cast a bad light on the organization he worked for, therefore giving said organization no choice but to suspend him.
    Professions like lawyers, doctors, teachers, and professors have to be concerned with their conduct outside of the workplace. Facebook is not private. And his message was beyond inappropriate. It was a direct representation of what he stands for as a human being.
  • pandora wrote:
    I take great offense to that and how can you defend that?

    I thought everyone was working on kindness and respect... guess not.

    you take great offence to most things, mostly because you misunderstand and personlize every comment someone directs at you, and of being hate-filled before, which you do to many others when they don't agree with you.

    practice what you preach for once. stop judging others, or stop bullying others and calling them names because they are apparently judging others. it's completely hypocritical.

    since you have so many gay friends, how do they feel about this teacher and his public rant? do they agree with your stance that it's his right to free speech, or do they take the, in my opinion, more responsible approach by saying this guy has to be held accountable for what he said?
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
    pandora wrote:


    Speaking one's opinions is a basic freedom.... each of us enjoys.

    You're not reading anyone's posts regarding code of conduct Pandora. There are consequences to freely speaking your mind, especially if it has to do with Hate and involving the internet. Why are you refusing to acknowledge this; it's coming from several people on here!!! TEACHERS, and other professionals, risk their jobs every day due to what they write on the internet for all to see.

    It's downright stupidity. Everyone should know this by now!!!
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,495
    This thread is a really good example of how discussion in this world has become nothing more than personal attacks, shouting louder because then you must be right, and not listening at all. Yet we bitch about our leaders doing the same thing.

    Sad. Oh, abd the gang mentality is pretty sickening.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • :roll:

    yeah, we anti-hate/bigotry people are pretty deplorable, aren't we?

    oh, how you do go on.

    personal attacks? really? look at Pandora. she never stops accusing people of being hateful, angry, etc, yet someone says something back and it's "oh, you don't know me, how DARE you!".

    hypocrisy at its finest.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • Nothing worse than people who obviously lose an argument and then whine about how mean people are.
  • aerialaerial Posts: 2,319
    Nothing worse than people who obviously lose an argument and then whine about how mean people are.

    I would say YOU are the biggest whiner on the MT. .
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    pandora wrote:
    I take great offense to that and how can you defend that?

    I thought everyone was working on kindness and respect... guess not.

    you take great offence to most things, mostly because you misunderstand and personlize every comment someone directs at you, and of being hate-filled before, which you do to many others when they don't agree with you.

    practice what you preach for once. stop judging others, or stop bullying others and calling them names because they are apparently judging others. it's completely hypocritical.

    since you have so many gay friends, how do they feel about this teacher and his public rant? do they agree with your stance that it's his right to free speech, or do they take the, in my opinion, more responsible approach by saying this guy has to be held accountable for what he said?
    Not really your business and entirely off topic making this thread about me... why again :?
    the poster quoted me ...clearly said "you" to me and admitted his words were mean spirited.

    You are directing posts to me about my conduct.... this gets threads locked

    please do not read my posts in the future if this is a possibility cause it is not fair to others who want to discuss

    stay on topic please
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    EmBleve wrote:
    Professions like lawyers, doctors, teachers, and professors have to be concerned with their conduct outside of the workplace. Facebook is not private. And his message was beyond inappropriate. It was a direct representation of what he stands for as a human being.

    that is your opinion and also how it stands now on the rule

    my opinion it should not cover opinions shared in a public manner
    I believe they should have freedom of speech and not fear losing their jobs for their opinions

    conduct as far as threatening others or promoting that and breaking laws in place... yes
    that is what should be of a concern.... not one's core beliefs
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    :roll:

    yeah, we anti-hate/bigotry people are pretty deplorable, aren't we?

    oh, how you do go on.

    personal attacks? really? look at Pandora. she never stops accusing people of being hateful, angry, etc, yet someone says something back and it's "oh, you don't know me, how DARE you!".

    hypocrisy at its finest.
    again... making the thread personal? ... trying to lock it up?

    But a few are being just like the man this thread is about ... words filled with hate!

    I'm not the only one who sees this.

    Hate is hate ... sugarcoated tied pretty and civil or in a rant IMO

    you can feel it across the miles...

    who lost an argument? :?
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    As far as my gay lady friends, they are bigger than this man
    my friends are empowered, strong, secure in themselves.
    If you knew these ladies you wouldn't have to ask.

    Shake their heads and laugh a bit at the outrageousness of this man
    and the fact it is a debate :?

    knowing all to well hate is everywhere ...

    and to combat it spread love and stay happy this is where success lies not to get angry
    and make more hate.

    They are an inspiration and have been for decades, you have no idea the individual
    calming effect they have on others in their lives and they are a lot of fun too!

    These ladies got it going on!

    Beautiful spirits making more with their love and acceptance
    bringing change just that way. :D
  • JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
    pandora wrote:
    EmBleve wrote:
    Professions like lawyers, doctors, teachers, and professors have to be concerned with their conduct outside of the workplace. Facebook is not private. And his message was beyond inappropriate. It was a direct representation of what he stands for as a human being.

    that is your opinion and also how it stands now on the rule

    my opinion it should not cover opinions shared in a public manner
    I believe they should have freedom of speech and not fear losing their jobs for their opinions

    conduct as far as threatening others or promoting that and breaking laws in place... yes
    that is what should be of a concern.... not one's core beliefs

    Sadly, the professional world does not work like you would like it to.
    It is not an opinion that professionals should be concerned about how they display themselves publicly.
    It's a fact, and this story is an example of that fact.
    An employer needs no reason to fire an employee, so why would an employee give them a reason? You are a representative of your employer, always. Screw that up and you're out of a job. It goes without saying, Pandora.
  • aerial wrote:
    Nothing worse than people who obviously lose an argument and then whine about how mean people are.

    I would say YOU are the biggest whiner on the MT. .

    And you would be wrong about that, too.

    You can add it to the growing pile of things you're wrong about. Shall we take an inventory of the things you've gotten wrong or make a whole new thread?
  • JonnyPistachioJonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    There are a lot of factors surrounding this deplorable act this teacher committed...
    But the one thing I keep returning to is that the things he said eventually were heard by his students and co-workers. I think once it hits their ears, he is finished, no matter how it got there.

    I just cant imagine him teaching my kids. People defending this guys actions, would you be comfortable with him being your kids teacher?
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • By the way... This is what he said yesterday...as he gloated about being reinstated.. Right after the KKK threatened to protest on his behalf.

    "I try to be like Jesus every day. I teach God's truth, I make very few compromises. If you believe you may have a problem with that, get your schedule changed, 'cause I ain't changing! I try to teach and lead my students as if Lake Co. Schools had hired Jesus Christ himself."
    :roll:
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,495
    :roll:

    yeah, we anti-hate/bigotry people are pretty deplorable, aren't we?

    oh, how you do go on.

    personal attacks? really? look at Pandora. she never stops accusing people of being hateful, angry, etc, yet someone says something back and it's "oh, you don't know me, how DARE you!".

    hypocrisy at its finest.


    I was including everyone in the thread, even myself. There was very little discussion of the issue in this thread versus the same back and forth bickering of word choice, etc. And then everyone digs in.

    So, I've been re-reading it. I still question the "authority" of these coded-of-conduct and how they apply out into the internet world. But I certainly see this as being potentially an extreme case due to the bigotry involved. The problem is it seems like most of the country agrees with the bottom line of the facebook post, if not the hateful words. But, if it's going to change, people need to know that it is unacceptable.

    I've come to a new conclusion that he should have been suspended immediately pending an investigation. I believe the investigation would have provided him an opportunity to "repent" and still teach. I think the media coverage of the issue hurt any chance of a real resolution occurring, where a real discussion was had by the teacher and the school. It became just like this thread...dig in and no one listening to the other. And now, unfortunately we are no better off for a future occurrence of anything like this happening. I do think the media coverage and the immediate hatred towards this teacher took away any chance of "educating" him. And that is a shame.

    While I may not like it that facebook posts can be used by employers to discipline their employees, the reality may just be that it is SO public and could live forever (either stay online or even after removed, someone surely has the printed words on a screenshot, etc) that it has to be addressed by the employer. It still bugs me though. ;)
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,495
    Nothing worse than people who obviously lose an argument and then whine about how mean people are.

    Is this direct towards me?
    hippiemom = goodness
  • JonnyPistachioJonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    I've come to a new conclusion that he should have been suspended immediately pending an investigation. I believe the investigation would have provided him an opportunity to "repent" and still teach. I think the media coverage of the issue hurt any chance of a real resolution occurring, where a real discussion was had by the teacher and the school. It became just like this thread...dig in and no one listening to the other. And now, unfortunately we are no better off for a future occurrence of anything like this happening. I do think the media coverage and the immediate hatred towards this teacher took away any chance of "educating" him. And that is a shame.

    While I may not like it that facebook posts can be used by employers to discipline their employees, the reality may just be that it is SO public and could live forever (either stay online or even after removed, someone surely has the printed words on a screenshot, etc) that it has to be addressed by the employer. It still bugs me though. ;)

    I agree with all of this..
    He was given the chance to apologize, but decided not to. That quote he said (if true) when reinstated is scary to me.
    The facebook thing bothers me too.. But like you say, its etched in stone. Its there, and there's a chance that the whole world can see it. This is an interesting discussion to say the least.
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,495
    There are a lot of factors surrounding this deplorable act this teacher committed...
    But the one thing I keep returning to is that the things he said eventually were heard by his students and co-workers. I think once it hits their ears, he is finished, no matter how it got there.

    I just cant imagine him teaching my kids. People defending this guys actions, would you be comfortable with him being your kids teacher?


    I don't know. But I think yes. I don't really on a SS teacher to teach my kid about diversity. really depends on his behavior in the classroom. I would certainly want my kid to know that the teacher is wrong in his opinion and was wrong to use the hurtful words, but that everyone makes mistakes and it's better to tackle issues head on them drive the discussion underground with more hatred sent back his way.

    But I understand people feeling the way you do.
    hippiemom = goodness
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