Florida Teacher suspended over anti-homosexual remarks:

cincybearcat

I certainly agree that he is wrong and was stupid to post it.

And that it is hard being on the side here that is defending his right to say it in the manner he did without losing his job, chose his comment is indefensible in my opinion, but he has the right to say it in,my opinion.

brianlux

cincybearcat wrote:

I certainly agree that he is wrong and was stupid to post it.

And that it is hard being on the side here that is defending his right to say it in the manner he did without losing his job, chose his comment is indefensible in my opinion, but he has the right to say it in,my opinion.

Yes, as you say, it is hard to defend the manner in which he communicated his thoughts- that was certainly ill chosen. I am against censorship so in that sense I support the right for anyone to say anything. But I'm also thinking this issue is not about rights but about responsibility. Facebook is public and writing homophobic remarks in a public place is irresponsible.

The biggest issue to me is the homophobia. Sometimes I find it hard to believe that it is 2011. Thirty years ago I was under the impression we were almost done with homophobia, racism, hate in general. Yeah- naive me. What a bummer.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

cincybearcat wrote:

I certainly agree that he is wrong and was stupid to post it.

And that it is hard being on the side here that is defending his right to say it in the manner he did without losing his job, chose his comment is indefensible in my opinion, but he has the right to say it in,my opinion.

people just aren't getting it. this is not a free speech argument. he has every right to enjoy saying stupid things in public. we are not saying he is not allowed to say things in public that he wants to. but he needs to be prepared to take responsibility for saying things like that. it's not appropriate to be a bigot and to go around spouting this garbage IN PUBLIC and be teaching a new crop of impressionable children.

if you would just see the correlation to the past. if he said the N word on facebook, you wouldn't be saying he doesn't deserve to lose his job. IT'S THE SAME THING, AND NO ONE CAN DENY THAT FACT.

keep in mind, months ago I was the sole person in a thread defending a guy who was a justice of the peace and refused to marry interracial couples, not because he didn't like black people, but his opinion was that races should not mix; he thought it was detrimental to ALL races (not just whites). I got crucified for my opinion that he wasn't being racist. but I came to the realization that it wasn't appropriate for him to act this way because it is his job, and he is not allowed to conduct himself in this manner.

publicly slandering gays, while being required to teach children and prepare them for life in the world, is equally as deplorable conduct. the big issue here is PUBLIC. he didn't get overheard saying it to a friend at a bar, he didn't forward an off colour racist joke, he put it out there for the whole world to see.

he should not be teaching. end of story.

cincybearcat

I never said anything about free speech, it's not like he is being arrested.

But I wonder if an employer should have the ability to fire an employer for what they post on the internet in their free time, especially when it isn't disparaging to the employer specifically.

And, I.admit that I am still thinking about it and may yet change my mind.

Been an interesting discussion for me, thanks for the thought provoking posts. Not do much for the childish derogatory ones though.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

cincybearcat wrote:

I never said anything about free speech

yes you did. you said "he has the right to say it". but even if that's not what you meant, there is someone else on here who won't stop talking about this guy and his right to free speech.

brianlux

cincybearcat wrote:

But I wonder if an employer should have the ability to fire an employer for what they post on the internet in their free time, especially when it isn't disparaging to the employer specifically.

The nature of the job itself probably has a lot to do with this becoming a publicized issue. I used to be a teacher and I know from experince that teachers are under more scrutiny (and I think rightly so) than people in many other professions. Teachers often have a huge influence on their students. The most important job, I believe, of a teacher is to facilitate critical thinking. A teacher who broadcasts his or her bias publically is probably not well suited to teach. I think the guy needs to first examine his biases and if he can't at the very least stuff them, then he probably should find another job. The other thing he may need to consider is examining his homophobia-- which is something that often has a lot to do with a person's own sexual insecurities or uncertainties.

aerial

Let people believe what they choose, as long as it hurts no one what is the big deal. Why is it okay to dislike this guy but it's not okay for him to dislike someone? Some of you on MT are worse that the ones you accuse.



Accusing your opponent of
causing you offence has become
an everyday tactic in public
discussion.
This is a cowardly tactic, which
means that you don’t have to
bother putting your own case, or
pointing out the other’s flaws.
This also presents another’s
opinions as mere ‘hate’ or ‘phobias’,
suggesting that your opponent is
blind or irrational.
Against this, we should celebrate
the virtues of public argument. It is
through arguments that we develop
our own ideas, and learn from each
other.
We should avoid playing the
‘offence card’, and continue with
the match of public debate.

aerial

If he did vomit when he heard the News would it then be okay to post? Would it merit firing? Can you post facts and stay safe?

pandora

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

I never said anything about free speech

yes you did. you said "he has the right to say it". but even if that's not what you meant, there is someone else on here who won't stop talking about this guy and his right to free speech.

SOMEONE you can say my name

it's when a fellow poster insinuates I am compromised in my thinking ability because of the lack the same amount of brain cells as the next person... that I get a teensy bit upset about, go figure.

it may not be freedom of speech government style but it big brother style...
when an employer can do that to a person in their free time. Yes he chose to take the job
but was forced to lose his freedom of speech outside the classroom.This should not be part of the deal of employment. IMO

It is wrong, it is losing your right to speak your mind freely for fear of losing your job
and that "rule" should be changed unless it involves threats and direct slander or is happening on company time or in the classroom.

As far as spreading hate...

as I've said hate is hate whether you rant it or whether you sugarcoat and make it pretty
because it is then 'civil', whether you hide it in snide remarks or examples.
The outcome is the same someone gets offended and hurt. It is all negative and destructive.
And it makes for more hate.

I do not condone his hate but his right to express it only.
And as I've said it should be up to the website what is acceptable for their clients.

I've been thinking about some middle aged men I know... one being a past employee
and he is only one example.

He went through a terrible time of rage... extreme mood swings, abusive to others on the job
including his boss, my husband.
This out of character. I asked him to maybe see a doctor
because we did not want to fire this man who had been with us for 15 years.
He is family.

He was diagnosed with diabetes... advanced... causing nasty behavior.
He also had a series of mild strokes he was unaware he had had which effected his reasoning ability.

Not only do people here judge this teacher when he has been doing an awesome job for 22 years,
they assume he is a terrible person. And then they themselves rant in the same manner.
Perpetuate the hate.

What if he is ill like what happened to our employee. We could have cared less,
it could have been our 'policy' to fire someone who behaved like that, been quick to judgement,
quick to write off a great human being.

But with tenderness, kindness and understanding we found a solution and we all learned
the value of caring about another human being and the importance of helping them
instead of just assuming them bad and writing them off.

I'm giving this teacher the benefit of doubt because I do not have all the facts
and for other reasons I have already stated.

He shows no signs of ever having any trouble in the classroom this the biggest factor for me.
That and he did not try to teach his views to his students ever over 22 years and has been loved and admired.

I believe in freedom of speech, I believe in privacy and this pertains to employment
not just on a government/ constitutional level.

I hope he gets the help he needs so he can resume his life in the classroom.

redrock

A teacher, a post of responsibility, posted something nasty on his facebook (quite a public place). What he posted was testimony of his long standing opinion on a subject. I understand that this opinion was not aired in school but, nevertheless, is ingrained in him. Not a nice one either, but his choice.

Someone to do with the school (student, ex student, whatever) lodged a complaint with the school.

The school was duty bound to investigate this complaint. During this time, the teacher was put on admin duty.

Whilst the board who investigated the complaint may have found the propos held by this teacher vile, they also found that he had not violated their rules therefore said teacher has been reinstated.

So he is back teaching with students knowing how he really is, what he really thinks. I'm thinking he won't get teacher of the year this year.

I wouldn't want my kid taught by this guy.

This wasn't a question of free speech or not, but a question of school rules being broken and thus investigated as such.

Prince Of Dorkness

pandora wrote:

]it may not be freedom of speech government style but it big brother style...

Um... Pandora... In the book 1984, Big Brother Was the government. Please don't use phrases like "big brother style" if you don't actually know what they mean.

There are some jobs where one doesn't have the permission to do or say whoever the fuck they want, lest it reflect badly on their employer. He has one of those jobs. He knew that.

cincybearcat

brianlux wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

But I wonder if an employer should have the ability to fire an employer for what they post on the internet in their free time, especially when it isn't disparaging to the employer specifically.

The most important job, I believe, of a teacher is to facilitate critical thinking.

Then he was successful!

And that critical thinking is to come to an end conclusion, no? Otherwise why think. Of course this is a bit more sensitive a topic then most.

cincybearcat

redrock wrote:

This wasn't a question of free speech or not, but a question of school rules being broken and thus investigated as such.

Exactly, but also a question as to if the school has the right to discipline it's employees for internet postings about current affairs.

pandora

Lots of people have broken stupid rules and laws in their lives ... probably just about everyone.

Losing ones right to speak freely on their own time in a public place
imo is a stupid 'rule' or 'would be law' ....cause watch that will be next... a law
and it infringes on basic rights, our freedom of speech.

If he had sugarcoated his hate to appear civil would people have ignored it
and it would be a nonissue...
and he would continue to teach children successfully for another 22 years?

hate is hate even subtle.

or must all teachers be liberal in their thinking?
Or have no opinion private or public even outside the classroom?

And if he was found to be ill temporarily... like our employee...
definitely not responsible for his actions,
found to have a treatable condition would people forgive and restore a kinder attitude?

I find it amazing how people discount a human being... look past his merits of a lifetime.
It shouldn't though cause hysteria is rampant as is the incessant judging of others.
Something the teacher is guilty of also.

He will not take back nor apologize so he is either making a great stand with conviction
for his core beliefs or he is temporarily having a health issue because he is losing his job
and that seems irrational to me for someone who has lived an incredibly rational life.

Perhaps a loved one will help him find the answer.

cincybearcat

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

I never said anything about free speech

yes you did. you said "he has the right to say it". but even if that's not what you meant, there is someone else on here who won't stop talking about this guy and his right to free speech.

on the internet without it being his EMPLOYERS business. I'll have to look back and see if I was clear the first time. But I do think that is a right. Protection from overbearing employers to govern the thoughts of their employees 24/7.

pandora

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

pandora wrote:

]it may not be freedom of speech government style but it big brother style...

Um... Pandora... In the book 1984, Big Brother Was the government. Please don't use phrases like "big brother style" if you don't actually know what they mean.

There are some jobs where one doesn't have the permission to do or say whoever the fuck they want, lest it reflect badly on their employer. He has one of those jobs. He knew that.

I was using it in style of the Big Brother show
someone is always watching always listening :shock:

I am very familiar with the movie but I think the book was published earlier :? yes no?

Please don't tell me what I can and can not say
that would be wrong wouldn't you say?
You are assuming again I am uninformed.... that is rude.

I've said repeatedly I know about the rule ...I think it is a rule that needs to be changed
employers should not be allowed to restrict freedoms like our opinion in private and public unless it is direct slander or a threat. This rule should cover only during business hours and in the classroom.

JonnyPistachio

aerial wrote:

Let people believe what they choose, as long as it hurts no one what is the big deal. Why is it okay to dislike this guy but it's not okay for him to dislike someone? Some of you on MT are worse that the ones you accuse.

This teacher is full of hate (he is not full of "dislike"). I dislike the way he spreads hate. I dont hate him. See the difference?

"As long as it hurts no one what is the big deal"... :? Seriously? You don't see how this hurts people?!?! He has hurt people, THAT'S THE POINT!

redrock

cincybearcat wrote:

redrock wrote:

This wasn't a question of free speech or not, but a question of school rules being broken and thus investigated as such.

Exactly, but also a question as to if the school has the right to discipline it's employees for internet postings about current affairs.

If it breaks one of the rules they set out in their books and the employee signed contract saying he would adhere to these rules, I guess they do have the right. If one does not want to accept the rules, one doesn't sign a contract. He was being investigated "as to whether he violated the district's code of ethics. The code prohibits behavior that is "unbecoming" or that "disrupts the orderly processes of the district." Additionally, the state education code of ethics calls for educators to value the "worth and dignity of every person."

As a teacher whose role is to impart his knowledge, he must be credible to ALL his students. In my eyes, this person has lost all credibility as a teacher. I understand he is now speaking at a rally... Though one wonders if he is slightly delusional: "
On one of his class pages on the Mount Dora High website, Buell said he tried to "teach and lead my students as if Lake Co. Schools had hired Jesus Christ himself."

How can he hope to gain any respect from these young people now? Obviously, this 'credibility'/respect thing would vary with different 'types' of schools.

aerial

JonnyPistachio wrote:

aerial wrote:

Let people believe what they choose, as long as it hurts no one what is the big deal. Why is it okay to dislike this guy but it's not okay for him to dislike someone? Some of you on MT are worse that the ones you accuse.

This teacher is full of hate (he is not full of "dislike"). I dislike the way he spreads hate. I dont hate him. See the difference?

"As long as it hurts no one what is the big deal"... :? Seriously? You don't see how this hurts people?!?! He has hurt people, THAT'S THE POINT!

I think people need to toughen up and grow up......

JonnyPistachio

aerial wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

aerial wrote:

Let people believe what they choose, as long as it hurts no one what is the big deal. Why is it okay to dislike this guy but it's not okay for him to dislike someone? Some of you on MT are worse that the ones you accuse.

This teacher is full of hate (he is not full of "dislike"). I dislike the way he spreads hate. I dont hate him. See the difference?

"As long as it hurts no one what is the big deal"... :? Seriously? You don't see how this hurts people?!?! He has hurt people, THAT'S THE POINT!

I think people need to toughen up and grow up......

Nice.
Your response saddens me actually.
Ignorance is bliss I guess.