Lance Armstrong doping ?

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  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    BinFrog wrote:
    I am still torn on this whole thing. He's a cheater. We all get that and understand it now. The thing is: he won in an era of cheaters. In order to beat them, he joined them. He still was an amazing athlete. Doping or not, to win TDF 7 years in a row is astounding.

    actually ... you can chalk that up to the many myths about lance armstrong ... i used to believe this as well ... but the reality is that he won because he had the best doctors, the best drugs and the best system for cheating money can buy ... cycling is a team sport - you can be the best rider in the word but if your team sucks ... you have no chance of wining a grand tour ... lance's access to everything was the best and that's why he won all those TDF ...
  • musicismylife78
    musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
    BinFrog wrote:
    musicismylife78 wrote:
    i wonder what you all think of why lance didnt win any Tours past 2005. Did he not dope after then? Was doping just more widespread by that time?


    After his '05 "win" he retired for a long time. Hard to come back from that...

    I am still torn on this whole thing. He's a cheater. We all get that and understand it now. The thing is: he won in an era of cheaters. In order to beat them, he joined them. He still was an amazing athlete. Doping or not, to win TDF 7 years in a row is astounding.


    precisely my point about the complexity of the issue. Whats that saying that was passed around for the last couple years "if he cheated, he doped and beat a bunch of other dopers to win 7".

    Being torn is I think normal and decisions by courts and the UCI wont change that for many people.

    This doesnt end really. 2012 isnt the end of Lance, nor is it the end of this debate. people will be debating this for decades to come, just as the issue of steroids in MLB hasnt gone away and people continue to dope. It will reappear and have to be dealt with again, and there will be a strong split between those who alienate lance and those who continue to idolize him. He will continue to work in reguards to cancer awareness so he's not going away.
  • Wma31394
    Wma31394 Posts: 3,045
    just the way sport is these days...all sports..too much restrictions on these athletes..he just doped better than the other cyclists...all his tdf titles show it.

    If you dont like dopers..dont watch sports.
    "Going where the water tastes like wine!"
  • keeponrockin
    keeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    musicismylife78 wrote:
    One of the things thats stuck out so far, was in 2001 I think they talk about Lance and 2 other cyclists, riding and training without doping, and that they looked and felt awful, and could barely ride even small hills. And that once they doped they were able to become "their normal" amazing athlete selves.

    .
    So without drugs, he would not have won anything.

    He's a fraud.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • musicismylife78
    musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
    polaris_x wrote:
    BinFrog wrote:
    I am still torn on this whole thing. He's a cheater. We all get that and understand it now. The thing is: he won in an era of cheaters. In order to beat them, he joined them. He still was an amazing athlete. Doping or not, to win TDF 7 years in a row is astounding.

    actually ... you can chalk that up to the many myths about lance armstrong ... i used to believe this as well ... but the reality is that he won because he had the best doctors, the best drugs and the best system for cheating money can buy ... cycling is a team sport - you can be the best rider in the word but if your team sucks ... you have no chance of wining a grand tour ... lance's access to everything was the best and that's why he won all those TDF ...
    \
    but basso and ulrich, contador, landis, periero, all those guys won as well. I think it was so widespread that it was just accepted and normal. Had to have been. Hell Pantani won the year before Lance won his first, and he was a doper. This clearly goes way way beyond just that man from Texas

    Another thing that surprised me, sort of off topic was the report mentioned lance having a house in france and italy, even during 1999 and 1998, how did he afford that? Wasnt he just a no name athlete at that point?
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    musicismylife78 wrote:
    but basso and ulrich, contador, landis, periero, all those guys won as well. I think it was so widespread that it was just accepted and normal. Had to have been. Hell Pantani won the year before Lance won his first, and he was a doper. This clearly goes way way beyond just that man from Texas

    Another thing that surprised me, sort of off topic was the report mentioned lance having a house in france and italy, even during 1999 and 1998, how did he afford that? Wasnt he just a no name athlete at that point?

    yeah ... doping was endemic which is why it's disheartening to read guys from that era claim to not have known anything ... cycling is an amazing sport and it needs to confront its past and move forward but with truth and transparency ... i am pretty sure the winners of 2 of the 3 grand tours this year did so clean and with clean teams ... cycling is probably the most aggressive sport right now when it comes to doping ... and i think burying this or trying to disengage from it is not helping ...

    having said that - lance is not just another athlete who doped ... his involvement and ruthlessness as it relates to doping goes far beyond some epo and blood transfusions ... this is the part where we have not seen eye to eye ... he's not just another athlete who doped ...

    no ... lance had major results prior to his cancer including a world championship ... he signed a 2 year $2 million dollar deal with Confidis in 1996 ... he was already loaded ... and to be clear - he doped before his cancer ...
  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    So they stripped Armstrong of his 7 tour victories?

    They are going to leave the titles blank for those years. Why? Did people not finish on the podium? Why wouldn't they award the 2nd place finisher? Or did they all cheat? To mean they need t o provide answers as to why they would not award people below the title.

    So why don't they do the credible thing and erase all results for those years?
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • supersonicyears
    supersonicyears Posts: 2,619
    lukin2006 wrote:
    So they stripped Armstrong of his 7 tour victories?

    They are going to leave the titles blank for those years. Why? Did people not finish on the podium? Why wouldn't they award the 2nd place finisher? Or did they all cheat? To mean they need t o provide answers as to why they would not award people below the title.

    So why don't they do the credible thing and erase all results for those years?
    This is what I was going to ask. Are they going to give it to the 2nd place winner and will they check to make sure they weren't also doing the same thing? This is unbelievable.
    "In the age of darkness
    want to be enlightened"
  • musicismylife78
    musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
    supersonicyears wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    So they stripped Armstrong of his 7 tour victories?

    They are going to leave the titles blank for those years. Why? Did people not finish on the podium? Why wouldn't they award the 2nd place finisher? Or did they all cheat? To mean they need t o provide answers as to why they would not award people below the title.

    So why don't they do the credible thing and erase all results for those years?
    This is what I was going to ask. Are they going to give it to the 2nd place winner and will they check to make sure they weren't also doing the same thing? This is unbelievable.

    They wont give it to the 2nd place winner because look at the list from 199-2005, every person who was 2nd or 3rd or 4th was guilty of doping as well. The cycling world knows they cant give the runner up the award, because its well known how deep and ubiquitous doping was. I dont think they will do anything to make sure this doesnt happen again. Thats the sad part and the farce of the entire investigation. If they were aiming to bring down everyone who doped during those years, they'd have to prosecute and fine and ban team leaders, CEO's, members of UCI, and people who run and own the Tour. Thats never going to happen. It would be like running an investigation and punishing yourself. So one guy is taking the blame for an entire culture, and sport. Lets be real, people and organizations were getting paid off, and looking the other way, for more than one athlete. This involved pretty much every elite Tour cyclist, for years and years. Its the same reason cops are never investigated, and buisnessmen never are rounded up. They have the power, and they are running the investigation.

    Sports and cycling specificially, fundamentally cant clean house, which it should do, until the higher ups are prosecuted and treated like the criminals they are.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    there are a lot of people hoping lance stays quiet ...

    one day - he will HAVE to come clean ... just hoping it's sooner rather than later ...
  • musicismylife78
    musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
    polaris_x wrote:
    there are a lot of people hoping lance stays quiet ...

    one day - he will HAVE to come clean ... just hoping it's sooner rather than later ...

    do you think Sheryl Crow talked to the USADA for the investigation? Supposedly they ended their relationship on good terms.

    And his first wife?
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    musicismylife78 wrote:
    do you think Sheryl Crow talked to the USADA for the investigation? Supposedly they ended their relationship on good terms.

    And his first wife?

    nope ... she would have been listed ... i think sheryl crow was quoted as being supportive relatively recently ... they all knew he doped ... they didn't care ...
  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,618
    polaris_x wrote:
    musicismylife78 wrote:
    do you think Sheryl Crow talked to the USADA for the investigation? Supposedly they ended their relationship on good terms.

    And his first wife?

    nope ... she would have been listed ... i think sheryl crow was quoted as being supportive relatively recently ... they all knew he doped ... they didn't care ...

    Wife #1 was handing out the cortisone "joints" :wtf:
  • Red Mosquito75
    Red Mosquito75 Moline IL Posts: 1,038
    Armstong just needs to own it. He needs to come out and say look it took a lot of money and drugs but I beat cancer, I raised a lot of money for cancer research etc through livestong. I won 7 Tour De France's and yes I cheated and lied to everyone.
    Who knows if he thinks he should apologize. Probably not but deep down he knows he was wrong but he made a lot of money and maybe that justifies it in his mind but somewhere down the line he is going to have to give up a lot of his fortune in lawsuit settlements.
    This is Not For You
  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    Armstrong will never just come clean for nothing...but eventually some book publisher will offer him mega $$$$ and he'll come clean then...and it'll be an interesting read.

    Just amazed that they can leave the title blank from his seven wins...doesn't make sense...if the tour doesn't believe the 2nd place and on down was clean then those years should be completely wiped and riders accomplishments removed...

    Just a ridiculous sport...
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Armstrong will never just come clean for nothing...but eventually some book publisher will offer him mega $$$$ and he'll come clean then...and it'll be an interesting read.

    Just amazed that they can leave the title blank from his seven wins...doesn't make sense...if the tour doesn't believe the 2nd place and on down was clean then those years should be completely wiped and riders accomplishments removed...

    Just a ridiculous sport...

    official word on what they will do is on friday ... but i see no problem with wiping the records clean for those years ...

    it's unfortunate tho that you continue to judge a sport you know nothing about ... the reality is that there needs to be a truth and reconciliation inquiry as suggested by both USADA and WADA ...

    the sport is probably the most aggressive one out there in catching cheats now but their unwillingness to deal with the past will continue to haunt them ...
  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    polaris_x wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Armstrong will never just come clean for nothing...but eventually some book publisher will offer him mega $$$$ and he'll come clean then...and it'll be an interesting read.

    Just amazed that they can leave the title blank from his seven wins...doesn't make sense...if the tour doesn't believe the 2nd place and on down was clean then those years should be completely wiped and riders accomplishments removed...

    Just a ridiculous sport...

    official word on what they will do is on friday ... but i see no problem with wiping the records clean for those years ...

    it's unfortunate tho that you continue to judge a sport you know nothing about ... the reality is that there needs to be a truth and reconciliation inquiry as suggested by both USADA and WADA ...

    the sport is probably the most aggressive one out there in catching cheats now but their unwillingness to deal with the past will continue to haunt them ...

    What's good is an enquiry if the key player in this will not participate?
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    lukin2006 wrote:
    What's good is an enquiry if the key player in this will not participate?

    he doesn't need to participate ... a portion of his world has already crumbled without his participation ... the sport is much bigger than lance armstrong ... the sport can move on without lance armstrong ... the problem is that there is still a culture of denial ... and it starts at the top ... the UCI needs to clean house ... starting with the president and ex-president ... both those guys are corrupt and doing what lance has done all these years ... cover their asses ...
  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    As time goes on by leaving the results from those years...people will have more questions...and, how will they answer why the 2nd and so on weren't able to move up.

    I'm judging today's riders, I'm calling the sport ridiculous because they are choosing not award a champion from 2nd on down.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    lukin2006 wrote:
    As time goes on by leaving the results from those years...people will have more questions...and, how will they answer why the 2nd and so on weren't able to move up.

    I'm judging today's riders, I'm calling the sport ridiculous because they are choosing not award a champion from 2nd on down.

    because of all the podium finishers during the years lance won - all of them have been implicated in one form or another in doping ... you don't see one single cyclist stepping forward now saying they should be awarded the title do ya? ... no, because they all know ... jan ullrich is staying quiet because the culture dictates that ...

    this really goes back to the UCI ... and there unwillingness to come clean ...

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