the bloke is douche. any fake tears he gives will never compensate the clean, morally strong riders that could have won the tour.
I don't think any non-dopers were even in the top 20, that's why they just vacated those years. It wasn't just Lance but pretty much all the top guys of that era.
just heard lance was making $280,000 per speech in 2004......$280K to listen to a load of bullshit :x
If I had known then what I know now...
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
the bloke is douche. any fake tears he gives will never compensate the clean, morally strong riders that could have won the tour.
I don't think any non-dopers were even in the top 20, that's why they just vacated those years. It wasn't just Lance but pretty much all the top guys of that era.
There were non-dopers, but they couldn't finish at the top because they didn't dope, or weren't even in the pro's - forced to quit because of the pressure to dope or run out of town by people like Lance for trying make a change.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals. Ghandi
I have zero interest in watching or evening hearing about it.
+1,000,000
really? :shh:
If I had known then what I know now...
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
So here are some of the questions we hope Oprah asked Lance:
1. Why now, Lance? Is it because in one potential perjury case the statute of limitations has passed? Is it because you've already lost almost all your sponsors, had to step back from your foundation and are no longer getting the attention you once earned?
Did you have to lose nearly everything until you sought the only possible out? And at this point, why are you worth listening to at all?
2. Why are you doing this with me, Oprah Winfrey? I'm not known for my cycling knowledge or for pointed follow-up questions or my investigative journalistic skills. In fact, it's the opposite.
Wouldn't sitting down with Scott Pelley at "60 Minutes" have been a more legitimate forum? How about the Sunday Times of London, which you sued for libel for printing the truth? Or any of the French or American media that you bashed all along when in fact they weren't wrong at all?
You always fashioned yourself as a tough guy, Lance. You beat cancer for crying out loud, why go soft now?
3. Let's talk Betsy Andreu, the wife of one your former teammates, Frankie. Both Andreus testified under oath that they were in a hospital room in 1996 when you admitted to a doctor to using EPO, HGH and steroids. You responded by calling them "vindictive, bitter, vengeful and jealous." And that's the stuff we can say on TV.
And what would you say directly to Betsy, who dealt with a voicemail from one of your henchmen that included, she's testified, this:
"I hope somebody breaks a baseball bat over your head. I also hope that one day you have adversity in your life and you have some type of tragedy that will … definitely make an impact on you."
When you heard about that voicemail, why didn't you call Betsy and apologize then?
4. By the way, did you take performance-enhancing drugs prior to your diagnosis of testicular cancer, as Betsy Andreu, who I now have every single reason to believe, says you admitted to doing? Do you think it played a role in your diagnosis?
And while the reason you contracted cancer does nothing to diminish the intensity of your battle, or the great example of strength it provided, don't you think it would've been an essential part of your public campaign against the disease to mention that you used performance-enhancing drugs?
5. Just to get it on the record, because the way things are going I'm pretty sure this will come out at a later date, did you or your minions ever pressure federal authorities to stall out investigations into your doping?
Now, you wouldn't lie to me, right, Lance?
6. What do you say to Emma O'Reilly, who was a young Dublin native when she was first hired by the U.S. Postal team to give massages to the riders after races?
In the early 2000s, she told stories of rampant doping and how she was used to transport the drugs across international borders. In the USADA report, she testified that you tried to "make my life hell."
Her story was true, Lance, wasn't it? And you knew it was true. Yet despite knowing it was true, you, a famous multimillionaire superstar, used high-priced lawyers to sue this simple woman for more money than she was worth in England, where slander laws favor the famous. She had no chance to fight it.
She testified that you tried to ruin her by spreading word that she was a prostitute with a heavy drinking problem.
"The traumatizing part," she once told the New York Times, "was dealing with telling the truth."
Do you want to apologize to her? Not in general. I mean directly and by name. I mean, Lance, of all the people to attack like that, of all the people you had power and wealth over, you had to go after her? How Lance, could you do this to someone, and why would anyone want to believe again in someone capable of doing this to someone?
7. In 2011, former teammate Tyler Hamilton spoke about you and doping on "60 Minutes." He later said you two ran into each other in a Colorado restaurant where he says you tried to intimidate him, saying, "I'm going to make your life a living hell both in the courtroom and out of the courtroom."
Yet you knew he was telling the truth, right Lance? So why threaten him?
8. Greg LeMond, a three-time Tour de France champion, once raised the following hypothetical question: "If Lance's story is true, it's the greatest comeback in the history of sport. If it's not, it's the greatest fraud."
The allegation is that you heard that and decided to use your influence with Trek bikes to drop its association with LeMond's brand. The company even went to court to end a long-term contract. "Greg's public comments hurt the LeMond brand and the Trek brand," a company official said at the time.
What comment? Wondering about something that was true?
The move cost LeMond millions. Did you try to ruin him financially simply for spite?
9. We've just scratched the surface on people you pushed around. There are more victims in your wake. Do you want me to continue with the others?
If I had known then what I know now...
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
imalive, I'm sure Oprah will ask none of those questions. I'm betting the bulk of the interview will revolve around Oprah laughing like an idiot while Lance tries to teach her how to pop a wheelie.
"See a broad to get dat booty yak 'em, leg 'er down, a smack 'em yak 'em!"
I'm not going to dismiss LA's usage of PED's but what I'm most bothered by was his intimidation/bullying of those who testified or spoke out against him. To me this was far worse than his drug usage in that how it impacted those who were speaking the truth about what he did, even though many other riders were using in that 6 of the 7 races he won they couldn't name any other riders as winner of TDF. :(
Maybe he should become a whisleblower for the government or cycling agencies on how he was able to keep his testing undetected for so long.
Peace
Yes, that is what makes Lance different from the other dopers. His intimidation and bullying tactics that cost other people their careers, jobs, and reputations. He is mean and ruthless. AND for those of you saying the "good" that he did for his foundation he had ulterior motives. Livestrong was/is his brand. He made money - lots of money - off of that brand. Further, it appears as if he made money off of the foundation and for sure had expenses paid by the foundation. I read an article not too long ago where the foundation sponsored a ride in Canada or Alaska and rich people paid a large sum of money to "ride with Lance." I can't remember the sum but it seems like it was $2,500 or $5,000.00 per person. He came to the ride just in time to start riding, then took off ahead of the people who paid to ride with him, then left right after the ride. And the worst thing, his fee was one-half of the amount each person paid. The other half went to the foundation. So he makes money from foundation appearances. The foundation is important to him for that reason.
Agree. It's great he raised money for the foundation (whoops, and of course for himself), but he screwed over people big time.
I just read this. What a surprise:
About 100 Livestrong staff members gathered in a conference room as Armstrong told them "I'm sorry." He choked up during a 20-minute talk, expressing regret for the long-running controversy tied to performance-enhancers had caused, but stopped short of admitting he used them.
So here are some of the questions we hope Oprah asked Lance:
1. Why now, Lance? Is it because in one potential perjury case the statute of limitations has passed? Is it because you've already lost almost all your sponsors, had to step back from your foundation and are no longer getting the attention you once earned?
Did you have to lose nearly everything until you sought the only possible out? And at this point, why are you worth listening to at all?
2. Why are you doing this with me, Oprah Winfrey? I'm not known for my cycling knowledge or for pointed follow-up questions or my investigative journalistic skills. In fact, it's the opposite.
Wouldn't sitting down with Scott Pelley at "60 Minutes" have been a more legitimate forum? How about the Sunday Times of London, which you sued for libel for printing the truth? Or any of the French or American media that you bashed all along when in fact they weren't wrong at all?
You always fashioned yourself as a tough guy, Lance. You beat cancer for crying out loud, why go soft now?
3. Let's talk Betsy Andreu, the wife of one your former teammates, Frankie. Both Andreus testified under oath that they were in a hospital room in 1996 when you admitted to a doctor to using EPO, HGH and steroids. You responded by calling them "vindictive, bitter, vengeful and jealous." And that's the stuff we can say on TV.
And what would you say directly to Betsy, who dealt with a voicemail from one of your henchmen that included, she's testified, this:
"I hope somebody breaks a baseball bat over your head. I also hope that one day you have adversity in your life and you have some type of tragedy that will … definitely make an impact on you."
When you heard about that voicemail, why didn't you call Betsy and apologize then?
4. By the way, did you take performance-enhancing drugs prior to your diagnosis of testicular cancer, as Betsy Andreu, who I now have every single reason to believe, says you admitted to doing? Do you think it played a role in your diagnosis?
And while the reason you contracted cancer does nothing to diminish the intensity of your battle, or the great example of strength it provided, don't you think it would've been an essential part of your public campaign against the disease to mention that you used performance-enhancing drugs?
5. Just to get it on the record, because the way things are going I'm pretty sure this will come out at a later date, did you or your minions ever pressure federal authorities to stall out investigations into your doping?
Now, you wouldn't lie to me, right, Lance?
6. What do you say to Emma O'Reilly, who was a young Dublin native when she was first hired by the U.S. Postal team to give massages to the riders after races?
In the early 2000s, she told stories of rampant doping and how she was used to transport the drugs across international borders. In the USADA report, she testified that you tried to "make my life hell."
Her story was true, Lance, wasn't it? And you knew it was true. Yet despite knowing it was true, you, a famous multimillionaire superstar, used high-priced lawyers to sue this simple woman for more money than she was worth in England, where slander laws favor the famous. She had no chance to fight it.
She testified that you tried to ruin her by spreading word that she was a prostitute with a heavy drinking problem.
"The traumatizing part," she once told the New York Times, "was dealing with telling the truth."
Do you want to apologize to her? Not in general. I mean directly and by name. I mean, Lance, of all the people to attack like that, of all the people you had power and wealth over, you had to go after her? How Lance, could you do this to someone, and why would anyone want to believe again in someone capable of doing this to someone?
7. In 2011, former teammate Tyler Hamilton spoke about you and doping on "60 Minutes." He later said you two ran into each other in a Colorado restaurant where he says you tried to intimidate him, saying, "I'm going to make your life a living hell both in the courtroom and out of the courtroom."
Yet you knew he was telling the truth, right Lance? So why threaten him?
8. Greg LeMond, a three-time Tour de France champion, once raised the following hypothetical question: "If Lance's story is true, it's the greatest comeback in the history of sport. If it's not, it's the greatest fraud."
The allegation is that you heard that and decided to use your influence with Trek bikes to drop its association with LeMond's brand. The company even went to court to end a long-term contract. "Greg's public comments hurt the LeMond brand and the Trek brand," a company official said at the time.
What comment? Wondering about something that was true?
The move cost LeMond millions. Did you try to ruin him financially simply for spite?
9. We've just scratched the surface on people you pushed around. There are more victims in your wake. Do you want me to continue with the others?
I made my post before I read this. Sheesh. Cause I couldn't hate the guy any more... that's a great piece, btw.
And maybe Oprah could milk the interview more too.
I'm not going to dismiss LA's usage of PED's but what I'm most bothered by was his intimidation/bullying of those who testified or spoke out against him. To me this was far worse than his drug usage in that how it impacted those who were speaking the truth about what he did, even though many other riders were using in that 6 of the 7 races he won they couldn't name any other riders as winner of TDF. :(
Yes, that is what makes Lance different from the other dopers. His intimidation and bullying tactics that cost other people their careers, jobs, and reputations. He is mean and ruthless. AND for those of you saying the "good" that he did for his foundation he had ulterior motives. Livestrong was/is his brand. He made money - lots of money - off of that brand. Further, it appears as if he made money off of the foundation and for sure had expenses paid by the foundation. I read an article not too long ago where the foundation sponsored a ride in Canada or Alaska and rich people paid a large sum of money to "ride with Lance." I can't remember the sum but it seems like it was $2,500 or $5,000.00 per person. He came to the ride just in time to start riding, then took off ahead of the people who paid to ride with him, then left right after the ride. And the worst thing, his fee was one-half of the amount each person paid. The other half went to the foundation. So he makes money from foundation appearances. The foundation is important to him for that reason.
Agree. It's great he raised money for the foundation (whoops, and of course for himself), but he screwed over people big time.
I just read this. What a surprise:
About 100 Livestrong staff members gathered in a conference room as Armstrong told them "I'm sorry." He choked up during a 20-minute talk, expressing regret for the long-running controversy tied to performance-enhancers had caused, but stopped short of admitting he used them.
As much as I once loved the guy his Livestrong Foundation came about by accident. He started taking PED's before winning TDF titles. After winning these titles and surviving near death from cancer, starting Livestrong was easy and it took off. Grant you for the good of many including my sister but he was all his self indulgence to be #1 at the sacrifice of those who spoke out about him.
Once he started he couldn't stop just out of pure greed.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
i dont think livestrong or lance are going away, nor do i think either will be shunned. America forgives when you own up. Look at Congressman Weiner and or Spitzer, both were exposed, and both routinely now are asked by talk shows for their opinions on issues. both routinely appear on maher and draw loud cheers.
Look at Clinton. How much bad press and bad publicity could he possibly get? the guys now extremely popular, well respected, and has his foundation and other work is seen as vitally important. In fact, Clinton was insanely popular as a president, I'd argue he's even more popular and more respected outside office post-scandal.
Again, armstrong has an emotional connection with people. Palmiero or Ulrich or Bonds they dont mean anything to me, and people liked them because of their skills at their sport, but thats where it ended.
no athlete who doped has done the type of outside consciousness raising and awareness that lance has done. Bonds isnt out there fighting for cancer or some other cause.
Lance made cancer fighting and awareness his mission. Again, i watched the tour those 7 years and followed lance like everyone else. The amount of times lance brought up cancer awareness and research is insane.
Thats the difference, and thats why people will forgive him, and why Livestrong will continue to fight the good fight.
People are naive if they think post Oprah Lance will wither away and Livestrong will fold. My expectation is he will spend the rest of his life fighting for cancer awareness and research.
You just dont see other doped athletes going to congress to fight for cancer research. you just dont. Its rare.
or look at someone like letterman or tiger woods. everyone ive mentioned, from clemons to Arod, to letterman to Woods, all lied, and lied for years. All denied it to fans and officials and their fans and families. Every single one of them is now forgiven.
America forgives, anyone who thinks otherwise is not paying attention
Lance acted the same way everyone else did. Bonds aint cooperating with officials and at trials, I have no doubt those journalists who have written exposes on him are shunned and threatened just as in the lance case.
Clemons wasnt forthcoming with his information.
Alot of these guys owned up merely because the public focus on steroids in sports started to get white hot.
Someone like Bonds is still in denial, and its a joke. Everyone knows he doped.
Bonds is one of those guys who will deny until the day he dies.
or look at someone like letterman or tiger woods. everyone ive mentioned, from clemons to Arod, to letterman to Woods, all lied, and lied for years. All denied it to fans and officials and their fans and families. Every single one of them is now forgiven.
America forgives, anyone who thinks otherwise is not paying attention
Lance acted the same way everyone else did. Bonds aint cooperating with officials and at trials, I have no doubt those journalists who have written exposes on him are shunned and threatened just as in the lance case.
Clemons wasnt forthcoming with his information.
Alot of these guys owned up merely because the public focus on steroids in sports started to get white hot.
Someone like Bonds is still in denial, and its a joke. Everyone knows he doped.
Bonds is one of those guys who will deny until the day he dies.
Letterman, Clinton, Tiger Woods?? I don't see any relation at all between any of their situations and Armstrong's. There is a big difference between doping, winning 7 tour de france races, lying about it, suing people and threatening to end people's careers in an effort to deny the cheating that's been proven, and someone fucking around on his wife (although Clinton lying to congress was bad... but I also don't think he should have been asked those questions in the first place and I think most agree with me). I don't think it's a very good comparison. As for baseball... Well, don't know too much about it, but I do know that some of those guys get death threats on a regular basis.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
all did something considered horrible and wrong and bad and unforgivable. All were forgiven.
People want to tear others down. And as I said, the idea that lance is going to disappear or that there will be witchhunt out to get his head once the interview airs is just pie in the sky and childish thinking.
For alot of folks on this board its about revenge. the majority of viewers will not see it like that. they will be sad and angry and upset, but as far as shunning him or viewing lance as a monster that wont happen.
The emotional and personal connection he developed with fans during those years is unique. I cant think of very many athletes in the last 2 decades who have had that deep of a connection with fans. People viewed him not just as this amazing athlete but emblematic of a horrific and disturbing disease that effects every single person in the world. The idea that this connection evaporates now that he confesses, that absolute bunk.
The point is people do bad things and lie and cheat and are forgiven. I named about a dozen people who have lied and cheated for decades, and all are forgiven.
There is something to be said for the idea we like to pump heroes up and then rip them to shreds when things like this happen. It makes us feel better. He was once the greatest cyclist of all time, now he's a disgraced liar and cheat. That makes us feel better.
all did something considered horrible and wrong and bad and unforgivable. All were forgiven.
People want to tear others down. And as I said, the idea that lance is going to disappear or that there will be witchhunt out to get his head once the interview airs is just pie in the sky and childish thinking.
For alot of folks on this board its about revenge. the majority of viewers will not see it like that. they will be sad and angry and upset, but as far as shunning him or viewing lance as a monster that wont happen.
The emotional and personal connection he developed with fans during those years is unique. I cant think of very many athletes in the last 2 decades who have had that deep of a connection with fans. People viewed him not just as this amazing athlete but emblematic of a horrific and disturbing disease that effects every single person in the world. The idea that this connection evaporates now that he confesses, that absolute bunk.
The point is people do bad things and lie and cheat and are forgiven. I named about a dozen people who have lied and cheated for decades, and all are forgiven.
There is something to be said for the idea we like to pump heroes up and then rip them to shreds when things like this happen. It makes us feel better. He was once the greatest cyclist of all time, now he's a disgraced liar and cheat. That makes us feel better.
You seem to know a lot about a lot of other people. For me, I just like seeing people who did bad shit get what they deserve. I don't like people getting away with breaking the law or cheating, and I feel satisfaction when they get busted and punished one way or another. My feelings don't change according to how famous they are though. Could be anyone. It's not the fall from grace that I like or that makes me feel better. It's the justice.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
or look at someone like letterman or tiger woods. everyone ive mentioned, from clemons to Arod, to letterman to Woods, all lied, and lied for years. All denied it to fans and officials and their fans and families. Every single one of them is now forgiven.
America forgives, anyone who thinks otherwise is not paying attention
Lance acted the same way everyone else did. Bonds aint cooperating with officials and at trials, I have no doubt those journalists who have written exposes on him are shunned and threatened just as in the lance case.
Clemons wasnt forthcoming with his information.
Alot of these guys owned up merely because the public focus on steroids in sports started to get white hot.
Someone like Bonds is still in denial, and its a joke. Everyone knows he doped.
Bonds is one of those guys who will deny until the day he dies.
Letterman, Clinton, Tiger Woods?? I don't see any relation at all between any of their situations and Armstrong's. There is a big difference between doping, winning 7 tour de france races, lying about it, suing people and threatening to end people's careers in an effort to deny the cheating that's been proven, and someone fucking around on his wife (although Clinton lying to congress was bad... but I also don't think he should have been asked those questions in the first place and I think most agree with me). I don't think it's a very good comparison. As for baseball... Well, don't know too much about it, but I do know that some of those guys get death threats on a regular basis.
people are making it sound like lance is the first person who's ever lied or cheated. Anyone with any knowledge about sports in the last decade and a half, all sports, knows sports in general has a major problem in terms of steroid and doping and cheating. Going after Lance isnt going to solve Cycling's problem, nor does going after Bonds solve MLB's problems. These guys are emblematic. Emblematic of larger problems that go deeper than sports, and infest the American way of winning at all costs and doing whatever you have to do to win.
From day 1 of the MLB and Cycling steroid issues, Ive viewed this as a major problem involving every single leader, CEO, commisioner, team leader, coach, player. This needs to be looked at from a fundamental point of view.
What makes people cheat, why do they? What can be done to make cheating something that doesnt happen. How about steroids, why do people take drugs? What can be done to eliminate drug use from sports.
These are complex issues and arent solved in prosecuting users, which should happen on a much wider basis as far as im concerned. Going after a few players, the big names is silly. I think everyone who used in the MLB and cycling should face large fines at the minimum.
lance was a biking son of a gun. he peddled hard & harder than others. he fucking won countless fucking tours of god damn france. i say the guy is a fricking bad ass cyclist. many can't keep up & are simply jealous as shit of mr. lance.
or look at someone like letterman or tiger woods. everyone ive mentioned, from clemons to Arod, to letterman to Woods, all lied, and lied for years. All denied it to fans and officials and their fans and families. Every single one of them is now forgiven.
America forgives, anyone who thinks otherwise is not paying attention
Lance acted the same way everyone else did. Bonds aint cooperating with officials and at trials, I have no doubt those journalists who have written exposes on him are shunned and threatened just as in the lance case.
Clemons wasnt forthcoming with his information.
Alot of these guys owned up merely because the public focus on steroids in sports started to get white hot.
Someone like Bonds is still in denial, and its a joke. Everyone knows he doped.
Bonds is one of those guys who will deny until the day he dies.
Letterman, Clinton, Tiger Woods?? I don't see any relation at all between any of their situations and Armstrong's. There is a big difference between doping, winning 7 tour de france races, lying about it, suing people and threatening to end people's careers in an effort to deny the cheating that's been proven, and someone fucking around on his wife (although Clinton lying to congress was bad... but I also don't think he should have been asked those questions in the first place and I think most agree with me). I don't think it's a very good comparison. As for baseball... Well, don't know too much about it, but I do know that some of those guys get death threats on a regular basis.
people are making it sound like lance is the first person who's ever lied or cheated. Anyone with any knowledge about sports in the last decade and a half, all sports, knows sports in general has a major problem in terms of steroid and doping and cheating. Going after Lance isnt going to solve Cycling's problem, nor does going after Bonds solve MLB's problems. These guys are emblematic. Emblematic of larger problems that go deeper than sports, and infest the American way of winning at all costs and doing whatever you have to do to win.
From day 1 of the MLB and Cycling steroid issues, Ive viewed this as a major problem involving every single leader, CEO, commisioner, team leader, coach, player. This needs to be looked at from a fundamental point of view.
What makes people cheat, why do they? What can be done to make cheating something that doesnt happen. How about steroids, why do people take drugs? What can be done to eliminate drug use from sports.
These are complex issues and arent solved in prosecuting users, which should happen on a much wider basis as far as im concerned. Going after a few players, the big names is silly. I think everyone who used in the MLB and cycling should face large fines at the minimum.
I know it's a big problem in sports, but that doesn't mean we should go easy on Lance Armstrong (plus he was actually more diabolical about it than most!). It's not even the actual doping that's so troublesome. It's all the other shit. The intimidation tactics, the lengths to which he went to cover it up, all that shit. As was mentioned, it was the most sophisticated and scheming doping program ever seen in sports (supposedly). That's means something too. But for ME, it's really about how he handled the accusations and the cover up that REALLY put him in my bad books. :nono:
Chadwick: Lance was reported to be only average before he doped (so I've heard from his former coach, who worked with him before he doped). He wasn't strong on hills, and was only average for long distance. Reportedly, he never would have been particularly successful as a cyclist without doping. Competitive, yes. A Tour de France winner and multi-million dollar poster child? No.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
all did something considered horrible and wrong and bad and unforgivable. All were forgiven.
People want to tear others down. And as I said, the idea that lance is going to disappear or that there will be witchhunt out to get his head once the interview airs is just pie in the sky and childish thinking.
For alot of folks on this board its about revenge. the majority of viewers will not see it like that. they will be sad and angry and upset, but as far as shunning him or viewing lance as a monster that wont happen.
The emotional and personal connection he developed with fans during those years is unique. I cant think of very many athletes in the last 2 decades who have had that deep of a connection with fans. People viewed him not just as this amazing athlete but emblematic of a horrific and disturbing disease that effects every single person in the world. The idea that this connection evaporates now that he confesses, that absolute bunk.
The point is people do bad things and lie and cheat and are forgiven. I named about a dozen people who have lied and cheated for decades, and all are forgiven.
There is something to be said for the idea we like to pump heroes up and then rip them to shreds when things like this happen. It makes us feel better. He was once the greatest cyclist of all time, now he's a disgraced liar and cheat. That makes us feel better.
You seem to know a lot about a lot of other people. For me, I just like seeing people who did bad shit get what they deserve. I don't like people getting away with breaking the law or cheating, and I feel satisfaction when they get busted and punished one way or another. My feelings don't change according to how famous they are though. Could be anyone. It's not the fall from grace that I like or that makes me feel better. It's the justice.
How about this, what should and can lance do to be forgiven in your eyes? If you feel on thursday and friday that viewers are going to be disgusted and hate lance, what do you think lance has to do, in the larger publics eyes to be forgiven?
I brought up those other people because they all did wrong, and all were eventually forgiven. What did they do that, that lance needs to do, in order for the public to forgive him?
Ive mentioned the emotional and personal connection he formed with fans, and as of yet, i havent heard anyone discuss it. I rememeber this summer i brought it up and someone here said their uncle had cancer during the 7 tours and lance didnt mean anything to them.
But I didnt make up these ideas. They are real. They are true personally in my family, and i know thats alot of what he meant to the public at large. This wasnt just an athlete worshipped for his skills. He was admired and worshipped because of what he symbolized, and how millions of people saw their own relatives, friends, parents, loved ones via Lance and what he was doing. The fact he constantly references cancer awareness and spends his days off physically going and campaigning for research only intensifies that bond thats created.
And thats the grey issue no one discusses. Ive watched a few intense debates with lance on youtube. Some journalist who said he used is in the room. Lance see him. And goes on a rant, not about how great Lance is and how those 7 wins are legendary, but rather about cancer, that cancer is so common and so horrific and needs to be cured etc...
To me, I never saw any other doped athlete act that way. Did you? Maybe I blacked out the last decade and I missed something.
Personally I still feel the way I felt these last few years. Even now the issues are cloudy. There are people now who loathe and hate him. And people who will always view him as a hero and a great guy who did important things, but lied and cheated. Where you fall on that spectrum may not be black and white. You may feel both. And it also may be personal. Maybe if my family didnt deal with cancer around 2005, I wouldnt view him the way I do.
But i think its silly to not allow people to feel whatever they feel.
all did something considered horrible and wrong and bad and unforgivable. All were forgiven.
People want to tear others down. And as I said, the idea that lance is going to disappear or that there will be witchhunt out to get his head once the interview airs is just pie in the sky and childish thinking.
For alot of folks on this board its about revenge. the majority of viewers will not see it like that. they will be sad and angry and upset, but as far as shunning him or viewing lance as a monster that wont happen.
The emotional and personal connection he developed with fans during those years is unique. I cant think of very many athletes in the last 2 decades who have had that deep of a connection with fans. People viewed him not just as this amazing athlete but emblematic of a horrific and disturbing disease that effects every single person in the world. The idea that this connection evaporates now that he confesses, that absolute bunk.
The point is people do bad things and lie and cheat and are forgiven. I named about a dozen people who have lied and cheated for decades, and all are forgiven.
There is something to be said for the idea we like to pump heroes up and then rip them to shreds when things like this happen. It makes us feel better. He was once the greatest cyclist of all time, now he's a disgraced liar and cheat. That makes us feel better.
You seem to know a lot about a lot of other people. For me, I just like seeing people who did bad shit get what they deserve. I don't like people getting away with breaking the law or cheating, and I feel satisfaction when they get busted and punished one way or another. My feelings don't change according to how famous they are though. Could be anyone. It's not the fall from grace that I like or that makes me feel better. It's the justice.
How about this, what should and can lance do to be forgiven in your eyes? If you feel on thursday and friday that viewers are going to be disgusted and hate lance, what do you think lance has to do, in the larger publics eyes to be forgiven?
I brought up those other people because they all did wrong, and all were eventually forgiven. What did they do that, that lance needs to do, in order for the public to forgive him?
Ive mentioned the emotional and personal connection he formed with fans, and as of yet, i havent heard anyone discuss it. I rememeber this summer i brought it up and someone here said their uncle had cancer during the 7 tours and lance didnt mean anything to them.
But I didnt make up these ideas. They are real. They are true personally in my family, and i know thats alot of what he meant to the public at large. This wasnt just an athlete worshipped for his skills. He was admired and worshipped because of what he symbolized, and how millions of people saw their own relatives, friends, parents, loved ones via Lance and what he was doing. The fact he constantly references cancer awareness and spends his days off physically going and campaigning for research only intensifies that bond thats created.
And thats the grey issue no one discusses. Ive watched a few intense debates with lance on youtube. Some journalist who said he used is in the room. Lance see him. And goes on a rant, not about how great Lance is and how those 7 wins are legendary, but rather about cancer, that cancer is so common and so horrific and needs to be cured etc...
To me, I never saw any other doped athlete act that way. Did you? Maybe I blacked out the last decade and I missed something.
Personally I still feel the way I felt these last few years. Even now the issues are cloudy. There are people now who loathe and hate him. And people who will always view him as a hero and a great guy who did important things, but lied and cheated. Where you fall on that spectrum may not be black and white. You may feel both. And it also may be personal. Maybe if my family didnt deal with cancer around 2005, I wouldnt view him the way I do.
But i think its silly to not allow people to feel whatever they feel.
Nothing - why should I forgive him?? I think what he did was unforgivable. Justice isn't about forgiveness. I actually don't loathe and hate him. I think he's a fuckin' slime ball though, who doesn't deserve to continue on in life being successful, since any success he's ever had or ever will have if people do forgive him will be based on his cheating and lying. That's just seems wrong and unjust to me.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
people want it one way or the other and its never like that. I cant post on here discussing it without someone saying im a lance or steroid apologist. Which doesnt even deserve a response, because its just a lazy comment thats not researched, if thats your argument.
Like all things people may fall into many categories. They may despise his actions but they may like another aspect of him. And I think thats important, because people arent their actions. If you murder someone, thats horrible and bad and wrong and you should be punished, but that doesnt mean you are a horrible person or that there is nothing good about you or that you should be left by the wayside.
Its easy to be black and white. Its alot harder to realize things are grey, and that people feel a variety of things for a variety of reasons. They may be a communist, but may have a job and pay taxes and shop at nike. They may be a feminist and sometimes enjoy edgy risque humor. A person might be a heroin user, but also be a caring, gentle, good person.
Ive never been able to see people as only one thing, because that paradigm is false and an illusion. Its made up.
And we all do it every single day. We lie, or fib, or do something mean, yet few would idenify as bad people
thats why im having a hard time saying he's a horrible person. because its never been about money to him or fame. anyone who watched interviews with him knows this. yes, he was taking credit for stuff he did while using drugs, but, i never heard him say he was great. I never got the opinion this was a big ego stroke. it all is so confusing. why dope to win and then instead of standing around saying how great you are, why spend countless hours creating raising awareness and funds for cancer? a typical steroid user, like bonds or clemons would have lied, soaked up the money and glory, and sat around and done nothing but install a olympic sized swimming pool and buy some expensive cars. reaping the benefits of your lying.
Lance seems completely different. He created a fundraising organizing and spent his free time getting people aware of cancer. and at every opportunity mentioned the plight of millions of cancer victims and the need for a cure. thats why its not black and white.
Im not aware of an athlete who has done anything like that. Id be happy to be proved wrong, but in terms of the steroid era in baseball and the massive doping in cycling, i cant think of another athlete who has that strong a dichotomy as lance. Basso wasnt "winning" then raising funds on behalf of HIV victims, Clemons after winning a Cy Young or a 20 strikeout game wasnt refusing to talk about how great he was and discussing the genocide in Rowanda. after Arod hits a homer, he isnt making sure the conversation goes into the plight of inner city youths and police brutality.
additionally, i think he gave people this idea that if they have cancer they can fight back, survive and go on to live their dreams. Reguardless of the validity of his own accomplishments, giving people that boost and inspiration thats profound and its not something that disappears based on jail time, fines, public humiliation or admission of lies. He gave alot of people with cancer hope. Hope that they could live. Hope that they could do anything. Whatever you think of Lance as a person, thats the legacy he has. For 7 tours, people in chemo and radiation, in hospice, people who that year found out they had cancer, for that summer, or those 7 years, felt like there was some hope.
Im not willing to part with that aspect of it. Nor should I have to. Anyone who went to a Livestrong "ride with lance" fundraiser can tell you how special that was, and how important, how cancer survivors view him during those events, and how he views the cancer survivors at such events
That scene in Dodgeball that seems so sad now, the impact and importance and meaning of it, I think is as true now as it was then when we believed him.
That scene in Dodgeball for my family and myself was more than just a gag or some cameo. It meant something, and still does.
Letterman is dedicating his Top 10 list to Lance tonight.
Should be good,...
For the ones who had a notion, a notion deep inside
That it ain't no sin to be glad you're alive
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Comments
I don't think any non-dopers were even in the top 20, that's why they just vacated those years. It wasn't just Lance but pretty much all the top guys of that era.
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
There were non-dopers, but they couldn't finish at the top because they didn't dope, or weren't even in the pro's - forced to quit because of the pressure to dope or run out of town by people like Lance for trying make a change.
really? :shh:
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
So here are some of the questions we hope Oprah asked Lance:
1. Why now, Lance? Is it because in one potential perjury case the statute of limitations has passed? Is it because you've already lost almost all your sponsors, had to step back from your foundation and are no longer getting the attention you once earned?
Did you have to lose nearly everything until you sought the only possible out? And at this point, why are you worth listening to at all?
2. Why are you doing this with me, Oprah Winfrey? I'm not known for my cycling knowledge or for pointed follow-up questions or my investigative journalistic skills. In fact, it's the opposite.
Wouldn't sitting down with Scott Pelley at "60 Minutes" have been a more legitimate forum? How about the Sunday Times of London, which you sued for libel for printing the truth? Or any of the French or American media that you bashed all along when in fact they weren't wrong at all?
You always fashioned yourself as a tough guy, Lance. You beat cancer for crying out loud, why go soft now?
3. Let's talk Betsy Andreu, the wife of one your former teammates, Frankie. Both Andreus testified under oath that they were in a hospital room in 1996 when you admitted to a doctor to using EPO, HGH and steroids. You responded by calling them "vindictive, bitter, vengeful and jealous." And that's the stuff we can say on TV.
And what would you say directly to Betsy, who dealt with a voicemail from one of your henchmen that included, she's testified, this:
"I hope somebody breaks a baseball bat over your head. I also hope that one day you have adversity in your life and you have some type of tragedy that will … definitely make an impact on you."
When you heard about that voicemail, why didn't you call Betsy and apologize then?
4. By the way, did you take performance-enhancing drugs prior to your diagnosis of testicular cancer, as Betsy Andreu, who I now have every single reason to believe, says you admitted to doing? Do you think it played a role in your diagnosis?
And while the reason you contracted cancer does nothing to diminish the intensity of your battle, or the great example of strength it provided, don't you think it would've been an essential part of your public campaign against the disease to mention that you used performance-enhancing drugs?
5. Just to get it on the record, because the way things are going I'm pretty sure this will come out at a later date, did you or your minions ever pressure federal authorities to stall out investigations into your doping?
Now, you wouldn't lie to me, right, Lance?
6. What do you say to Emma O'Reilly, who was a young Dublin native when she was first hired by the U.S. Postal team to give massages to the riders after races?
In the early 2000s, she told stories of rampant doping and how she was used to transport the drugs across international borders. In the USADA report, she testified that you tried to "make my life hell."
Her story was true, Lance, wasn't it? And you knew it was true. Yet despite knowing it was true, you, a famous multimillionaire superstar, used high-priced lawyers to sue this simple woman for more money than she was worth in England, where slander laws favor the famous. She had no chance to fight it.
She testified that you tried to ruin her by spreading word that she was a prostitute with a heavy drinking problem.
"The traumatizing part," she once told the New York Times, "was dealing with telling the truth."
Do you want to apologize to her? Not in general. I mean directly and by name. I mean, Lance, of all the people to attack like that, of all the people you had power and wealth over, you had to go after her? How Lance, could you do this to someone, and why would anyone want to believe again in someone capable of doing this to someone?
7. In 2011, former teammate Tyler Hamilton spoke about you and doping on "60 Minutes." He later said you two ran into each other in a Colorado restaurant where he says you tried to intimidate him, saying, "I'm going to make your life a living hell both in the courtroom and out of the courtroom."
Yet you knew he was telling the truth, right Lance? So why threaten him?
8. Greg LeMond, a three-time Tour de France champion, once raised the following hypothetical question: "If Lance's story is true, it's the greatest comeback in the history of sport. If it's not, it's the greatest fraud."
The allegation is that you heard that and decided to use your influence with Trek bikes to drop its association with LeMond's brand. The company even went to court to end a long-term contract. "Greg's public comments hurt the LeMond brand and the Trek brand," a company official said at the time.
What comment? Wondering about something that was true?
The move cost LeMond millions. Did you try to ruin him financially simply for spite?
9. We've just scratched the surface on people you pushed around. There are more victims in your wake. Do you want me to continue with the others?
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Agree. It's great he raised money for the foundation (whoops, and of course for himself), but he screwed over people big time.
I just read this. What a surprise:
About 100 Livestrong staff members gathered in a conference room as Armstrong told them "I'm sorry." He choked up during a 20-minute talk, expressing regret for the long-running controversy tied to performance-enhancers had caused, but stopped short of admitting he used them.
I made my post before I read this. Sheesh. Cause I couldn't hate the guy any more... that's a great piece, btw.
And maybe Oprah could milk the interview more too.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
As much as I once loved the guy his Livestrong Foundation came about by accident. He started taking PED's before winning TDF titles. After winning these titles and surviving near death from cancer, starting Livestrong was easy and it took off. Grant you for the good of many including my sister but he was all his self indulgence to be #1 at the sacrifice of those who spoke out about him.
Once he started he couldn't stop just out of pure greed.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Look at Clinton. How much bad press and bad publicity could he possibly get? the guys now extremely popular, well respected, and has his foundation and other work is seen as vitally important. In fact, Clinton was insanely popular as a president, I'd argue he's even more popular and more respected outside office post-scandal.
Again, armstrong has an emotional connection with people. Palmiero or Ulrich or Bonds they dont mean anything to me, and people liked them because of their skills at their sport, but thats where it ended.
no athlete who doped has done the type of outside consciousness raising and awareness that lance has done. Bonds isnt out there fighting for cancer or some other cause.
Lance made cancer fighting and awareness his mission. Again, i watched the tour those 7 years and followed lance like everyone else. The amount of times lance brought up cancer awareness and research is insane.
Thats the difference, and thats why people will forgive him, and why Livestrong will continue to fight the good fight.
People are naive if they think post Oprah Lance will wither away and Livestrong will fold. My expectation is he will spend the rest of his life fighting for cancer awareness and research.
You just dont see other doped athletes going to congress to fight for cancer research. you just dont. Its rare.
America forgives, anyone who thinks otherwise is not paying attention
Lance acted the same way everyone else did. Bonds aint cooperating with officials and at trials, I have no doubt those journalists who have written exposes on him are shunned and threatened just as in the lance case.
Clemons wasnt forthcoming with his information.
Alot of these guys owned up merely because the public focus on steroids in sports started to get white hot.
Someone like Bonds is still in denial, and its a joke. Everyone knows he doped.
Bonds is one of those guys who will deny until the day he dies.
People want to tear others down. And as I said, the idea that lance is going to disappear or that there will be witchhunt out to get his head once the interview airs is just pie in the sky and childish thinking.
For alot of folks on this board its about revenge. the majority of viewers will not see it like that. they will be sad and angry and upset, but as far as shunning him or viewing lance as a monster that wont happen.
The emotional and personal connection he developed with fans during those years is unique. I cant think of very many athletes in the last 2 decades who have had that deep of a connection with fans. People viewed him not just as this amazing athlete but emblematic of a horrific and disturbing disease that effects every single person in the world. The idea that this connection evaporates now that he confesses, that absolute bunk.
The point is people do bad things and lie and cheat and are forgiven. I named about a dozen people who have lied and cheated for decades, and all are forgiven.
There is something to be said for the idea we like to pump heroes up and then rip them to shreds when things like this happen. It makes us feel better. He was once the greatest cyclist of all time, now he's a disgraced liar and cheat. That makes us feel better.
people are making it sound like lance is the first person who's ever lied or cheated. Anyone with any knowledge about sports in the last decade and a half, all sports, knows sports in general has a major problem in terms of steroid and doping and cheating. Going after Lance isnt going to solve Cycling's problem, nor does going after Bonds solve MLB's problems. These guys are emblematic. Emblematic of larger problems that go deeper than sports, and infest the American way of winning at all costs and doing whatever you have to do to win.
From day 1 of the MLB and Cycling steroid issues, Ive viewed this as a major problem involving every single leader, CEO, commisioner, team leader, coach, player. This needs to be looked at from a fundamental point of view.
What makes people cheat, why do they? What can be done to make cheating something that doesnt happen. How about steroids, why do people take drugs? What can be done to eliminate drug use from sports.
These are complex issues and arent solved in prosecuting users, which should happen on a much wider basis as far as im concerned. Going after a few players, the big names is silly. I think everyone who used in the MLB and cycling should face large fines at the minimum.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Chadwick: Lance was reported to be only average before he doped (so I've heard from his former coach, who worked with him before he doped). He wasn't strong on hills, and was only average for long distance. Reportedly, he never would have been particularly successful as a cyclist without doping. Competitive, yes. A Tour de France winner and multi-million dollar poster child? No.
How about this, what should and can lance do to be forgiven in your eyes? If you feel on thursday and friday that viewers are going to be disgusted and hate lance, what do you think lance has to do, in the larger publics eyes to be forgiven?
I brought up those other people because they all did wrong, and all were eventually forgiven. What did they do that, that lance needs to do, in order for the public to forgive him?
Ive mentioned the emotional and personal connection he formed with fans, and as of yet, i havent heard anyone discuss it. I rememeber this summer i brought it up and someone here said their uncle had cancer during the 7 tours and lance didnt mean anything to them.
But I didnt make up these ideas. They are real. They are true personally in my family, and i know thats alot of what he meant to the public at large. This wasnt just an athlete worshipped for his skills. He was admired and worshipped because of what he symbolized, and how millions of people saw their own relatives, friends, parents, loved ones via Lance and what he was doing. The fact he constantly references cancer awareness and spends his days off physically going and campaigning for research only intensifies that bond thats created.
And thats the grey issue no one discusses. Ive watched a few intense debates with lance on youtube. Some journalist who said he used is in the room. Lance see him. And goes on a rant, not about how great Lance is and how those 7 wins are legendary, but rather about cancer, that cancer is so common and so horrific and needs to be cured etc...
To me, I never saw any other doped athlete act that way. Did you? Maybe I blacked out the last decade and I missed something.
Personally I still feel the way I felt these last few years. Even now the issues are cloudy. There are people now who loathe and hate him. And people who will always view him as a hero and a great guy who did important things, but lied and cheated. Where you fall on that spectrum may not be black and white. You may feel both. And it also may be personal. Maybe if my family didnt deal with cancer around 2005, I wouldnt view him the way I do.
But i think its silly to not allow people to feel whatever they feel.
so now lance's former coach is rolling him over too? unreal this frickin crap. snitch fest big time. i have zero respect for a snitchin frickin prick
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Like all things people may fall into many categories. They may despise his actions but they may like another aspect of him. And I think thats important, because people arent their actions. If you murder someone, thats horrible and bad and wrong and you should be punished, but that doesnt mean you are a horrible person or that there is nothing good about you or that you should be left by the wayside.
Its easy to be black and white. Its alot harder to realize things are grey, and that people feel a variety of things for a variety of reasons. They may be a communist, but may have a job and pay taxes and shop at nike. They may be a feminist and sometimes enjoy edgy risque humor. A person might be a heroin user, but also be a caring, gentle, good person.
Ive never been able to see people as only one thing, because that paradigm is false and an illusion. Its made up.
And we all do it every single day. We lie, or fib, or do something mean, yet few would idenify as bad people
Lance seems completely different. He created a fundraising organizing and spent his free time getting people aware of cancer. and at every opportunity mentioned the plight of millions of cancer victims and the need for a cure. thats why its not black and white.
Im not aware of an athlete who has done anything like that. Id be happy to be proved wrong, but in terms of the steroid era in baseball and the massive doping in cycling, i cant think of another athlete who has that strong a dichotomy as lance. Basso wasnt "winning" then raising funds on behalf of HIV victims, Clemons after winning a Cy Young or a 20 strikeout game wasnt refusing to talk about how great he was and discussing the genocide in Rowanda. after Arod hits a homer, he isnt making sure the conversation goes into the plight of inner city youths and police brutality.
Im not willing to part with that aspect of it. Nor should I have to. Anyone who went to a Livestrong "ride with lance" fundraiser can tell you how special that was, and how important, how cancer survivors view him during those events, and how he views the cancer survivors at such events
That scene in Dodgeball that seems so sad now, the impact and importance and meaning of it, I think is as true now as it was then when we believed him.
That scene in Dodgeball for my family and myself was more than just a gag or some cameo. It meant something, and still does.
Should be good,...
That it ain't no sin to be glad you're alive
ORGAN DONATION SAVES LIVES
http://www.UNOS.org
Donate Organs and Save a Life