ultimately I think America needs to have a real and intense discussion about cheating in sports... We all know what happened in baseball, yet people like A-Rod and Giambi continue to play and have their stats intact... For example, everyone is involved in perpetuating this myth about ARod and his homers. When he hits his next homer, his 648th, the issue of his cheating and doping wont come up. That number is accepted despite what we know.
How many people cared about cycling prior to lance?
Repectfully music, enough. Please. The Arod/Giambi argument doesn't work here. Here's why:
Neither will be going to the Hall of Fame. Ever.
Neither of them SUED PEOPLE FOR LIBEL AND PUT IT IN PEOPLES FACES.
You keep missing the bigger point. Lance is a class A douche. He didn't apologize until it was too late. He sued people for libel. He made $$$ based on a myth. He lived a lie on the course AND OFF OF IT. He exploited the hearts and caring souls by pretending to be something he wasn't. How you continue to defend this fraud is mind-boggling to me.
Giambi fessed up. ARod fessed up. They aren't representing organizations that prey on peoples sickness.
Lance's 'apology' is horse-pucky and doesn't come from a genuine place of contrition. He is doing it to compete again.
The guy ruined a organization people believed in. The guy took a sport "nobody cares about", put it on his back and was an inspiration - BASED ON A LIE.
It takes a lotta ball to pull off what he did( ).
He's a fraud. Find a new hero. Find a cancer patient without celebrity who is overcoming without attaching it to some stupid yellow bracelet that represents lies, fraud and now saddness for millions. Find a patient in a center near you. Learn their story. Help them. Believe in their will and determination. Put that belief to good use and help a local chapter heal others in your community.
I've read your posts, and while I don't agree with some, you are a LOT brighter than this.
Nobody cares about cycling outside of cycling fanatics. Guarantee this is the cherry that puts the "who gives a shit" on the ratings for this years TDF, btw. Bradley Wiggins who? Most people would trip over him in a deli and have no clue who he is. Sad. Lance ruined a foundation and a sport. And yet you cheer and root for this despicable walk of life.
To each his own.
Repectfully music, enough. Please. The Arod/Giambi argument doesn't work here. Here's why:
Neither will be going to the Hall of Fame. Ever.
Neither of them SUED PEOPLE FOR LIBEL AND PUT IT IN PEOPLES FACES.
You keep missing the bigger point. Lance is a class A douche. He didn't apologize until it was too late. He sued people for libel.
Totally agree. Can you imagine what it was like for these people being sued by Lance? Think about how much it cost to hire lawyers to compete with Lance's lawyers. They should all sue Lance for slander and monetary damages. The baseball players cheated themselves and the game...but they didn't maliciously try to hurt anybody else. That's what Lance did. And for the most part, these were people who were subpoenaed to testify against him. They didn't just come out of the woodwork like a bunch of rats just to get him. They were summoned to testify. They testified the truth, and Lance tried to destroy their lives. He's a total piece of shit.
ultimately I think America needs to have a real and intense discussion about cheating in sports... We all know what happened in baseball, yet people like A-Rod and Giambi continue to play and have their stats intact... For example, everyone is involved in perpetuating this myth about ARod and his homers. When he hits his next homer, his 648th, the issue of his cheating and doping wont come up. That number is accepted despite what we know.
How many people cared about cycling prior to lance?
Repectfully music, enough. Please. The Arod/Giambi argument doesn't work here. Here's why:
Neither will be going to the Hall of Fame. Ever.
Neither of them SUED PEOPLE FOR LIBEL AND PUT IT IN PEOPLES FACES.
You keep missing the bigger point. Lance is a class A douche. He didn't apologize until it was too late. He sued people for libel. He made $$$ based on a myth. He lived a lie on the course AND OFF OF IT. He exploited the hearts and caring souls by pretending to be something he wasn't. How you continue to defend this fraud is mind-boggling to me.
Giambi fessed up. ARod fessed up. They aren't representing organizations that prey on peoples sickness.
Lance's 'apology' is horse-pucky and doesn't come from a genuine place of contrition. He is doing it to compete again.
The guy ruined a organization people believed in. The guy took a sport "nobody cares about", put it on his back and was an inspiration - BASED ON A LIE.
It takes a lotta ball to pull off what he did( ).
He's a fraud. Find a new hero. Find a cancer patient without celebrity who is overcoming without attaching it to some stupid yellow bracelet that represents lies, fraud and now saddness for millions. Find a patient in a center near you. Learn their story. Help them. Believe in their will and determination. Put that belief to good use and help a local chapter heal others in your community.
I've read your posts, and while I don't agree with some, you are a LOT brighter than this.
Nobody cares about cycling outside of cycling fanatics. Guarantee this is the cherry that puts the "who gives a shit" on the ratings for this years TDF, btw. Bradley Wiggins who? Most people would trip over him in a deli and have no clue who he is. Sad. Lance ruined a foundation and a sport. And yet you cheer and root for this despicable walk of life.
To each his own.
So lance is the only person who acheived fame and wealth via using drugs and lying about it? You seen what Arod and Giambi are paid every year? What about Clemons, the guy prior to doping exposure was considered one of the greatest pitchers to ever play. What about Bonds? The guy was doping for years, made millions during that time period and allowed the public to give him the title "Home Run King of all time".
Whether ARod or Clemons ever make it INTO the HOF is one thing. I think most people view both as 2 of the greatest to ever play the game. The fact both acheived those stats while doping and lying about it is another issue.
Sports are messed up. And focusing on one rider and athlete does a major disservice to what should be the ultimate goal post doping scandal in all sports. That is to clean up all sports, and make sure stuff like this doesnt happen again.
None of these guys admitted to it for years. Bonds STILL hasnt admitted to it. And has lied for decades. Was Clemons chomping at the bit to confess? How about Palmiero? Or ARod?
The only REASON they confessed was because they were found out. They were named in the Mitchell report.
And beyond that its not like Basso, Ulrich, Hamilton and the the like were making pennies while Lance was raking in millions. All those guys were making bank and were lying to the public.
Wake up friend. Lots of people made money off the myth. The journalists and cycling world as a whole, who had no problem making millions during those 7 tours and said nothing all the while they knew 80 percent was doping. Selig and other heads made millions and did nothing to stop the doping because they had come off hellish years post strike and the world now viewed baseball as the national pastime again in 98.
Lance was one of hundreds, thousands even who made money off lies and myths. The myth was so big, it even involved CEO's, commissioners, team doctors and leaders from other countries and other teams, and on and on. Other teammates, other teams, managers, officials, leaders.
Again, lets have an honest conversation about cleaning sports up.
Repectfully music, enough. Please. The Arod/Giambi argument doesn't work here. Here's why:
Neither will be going to the Hall of Fame. Ever.
Neither of them SUED PEOPLE FOR LIBEL AND PUT IT IN PEOPLES FACES.
You keep missing the bigger point. Lance is a class A douche. He didn't apologize until it was too late. He sued people for libel.
Totally agree. Can you imagine what it was like for these people being sued by Lance? Think about how much it cost to hire lawyers to compete with Lance's lawyers. They should all sue Lance for slander and monetary damages. The baseball players cheated themselves and the game...but they didn't maliciously try to hurt anybody else. That's what Lance did. And for the most part, these were people who were subpoenaed to testify against him. They didn't just come out of the woodwork like a bunch of rats just to get him. They were summoned to testify. They testified the truth, and Lance tried to destroy their lives. He's a total piece of shit.
Lance was rare because he sued others, but its crystal clear, he could have not done that, and would have been fine. The entire sports world was covering up the fact in all sports doping was the rule not the exception. Everyone was doing it. Everyone knew about it, from the athletes to the higher ups. And everyone was involved in the cover up.
I think people like Selig and team managers in baseball, and in cycling the officials who knew everyone was doping, they share as much of the blame as any of the athletes who doped.
The reason doping was allowed to continue and to permeate the sport was precisely because of their attitude reguarding it.
Whether we are talking cycling officials or Selig, the idea someone wouldnt expose doping because they knew the sport was making money is gross. But its exactly what happened.
Repectfully music, enough. Please. The Arod/Giambi argument doesn't work here. Here's why:
Neither will be going to the Hall of Fame. Ever.
Neither of them SUED PEOPLE FOR LIBEL AND PUT IT IN PEOPLES FACES.
You keep missing the bigger point. Lance is a class A douche. He didn't apologize until it was too late. He sued people for libel.
Totally agree. Can you imagine what it was like for these people being sued by Lance? Think about how much it cost to hire lawyers to compete with Lance's lawyers. They should all sue Lance for slander and monetary damages. The baseball players cheated themselves and the game...but they didn't maliciously try to hurt anybody else. That's what Lance did. And for the most part, these were people who were subpoenaed to testify against him. They didn't just come out of the woodwork like a bunch of rats just to get him. They were summoned to testify. They testified the truth, and Lance tried to destroy their lives. He's a total piece of shit.
and people are STILL making bank off it. The same journalists who made money off Lance and cyclings rise to prominence, are now the same group who are making millions to tear him down. You dont think the journalists and news organizations are making serious money off all this? Its all about ratings and advertising.
If you think only one guy or one team made millions off this you are seriously deluded.
Or take Bonds. They guy has the temerity to interact with people like Aaron or Mays, people who were clean and act like he deserved a place with them. And that he was indeed hitting all those homers legitamately. Really?
Repectfully music, enough. Please. The Arod/Giambi argument doesn't work here. Here's why:
Neither will be going to the Hall of Fame. Ever.
Neither of them SUED PEOPLE FOR LIBEL AND PUT IT IN PEOPLES FACES.
You keep missing the bigger point. Lance is a class A douche. He didn't apologize until it was too late. He sued people for libel.
Totally agree. Can you imagine what it was like for these people being sued by Lance? Think about how much it cost to hire lawyers to compete with Lance's lawyers. They should all sue Lance for slander and monetary damages. The baseball players cheated themselves and the game...but they didn't maliciously try to hurt anybody else. That's what Lance did. And for the most part, these were people who were subpoenaed to testify against him. They didn't just come out of the woodwork like a bunch of rats just to get him. They were summoned to testify. They testified the truth, and Lance tried to destroy their lives. He's a total piece of shit.
and people are STILL making bank off it. The same journalists who made money off Lance and cyclings rise to prominence, are now the same group who are making millions to tear him down. You dont think the journalists and news organizations are making serious money off all this? Its all about ratings and advertising.
If you think only one guy or one team made millions off this you are seriously deluded.
Did you even read my post? I don't care about the money Lance made or the money made off him by journalists or whoever. I said I don't like how he viciously attacked and sued innocent people who were called to testify against him and testified truthfully.
i also question the idea of apologizing or admitting too late. Few of the dopers reguardless of sport readily admit it. Many spend years denying it. Bonds for example still hasnt admitted it.
Many lied under oath, quite a few, like Palmiero and Mcguire lied in front of congress. Its not like Clemons or ARod happily admitted they doped.
They admitted it because they were caught. Its always like that. Hamilton doped as far back as 2004, probably earlier. he didnt admit it until 2011. You dont think he was doping in 2002 or 2003? He lied and cheated for 7 years before admitting it.
You think Clemons was going to admit he doped if he wasnt brought to trial?
All these guys only confessed when they were caught or cornered.
Totally agree. Can you imagine what it was like for these people being sued by Lance? Think about how much it cost to hire lawyers to compete with Lance's lawyers. They should all sue Lance for slander and monetary damages. The baseball players cheated themselves and the game...but they didn't maliciously try to hurt anybody else. That's what Lance did. And for the most part, these were people who were subpoenaed to testify against him. They didn't just come out of the woodwork like a bunch of rats just to get him. They were summoned to testify. They testified the truth, and Lance tried to destroy their lives. He's a total piece of shit.[/quote]
and people are STILL making bank off it. The same journalists who made money off Lance and cyclings rise to prominence, are now the same group who are making millions to tear him down. You dont think the journalists and news organizations are making serious money off all this? Its all about ratings and advertising.
If you think only one guy or one team made millions off this you are seriously deluded.[/quote]
Did you even read my post? I don't care about the money Lance made or the money made off him by journalists or whoever. I said I don't like how he viciously attacked and sued innocent people who were called to testify against him and testified truthfully.[/quote]
Bonds also sued people as well. He sued the Game of Shadows authors who exposed him as a cheater, because they were going to include grand jury testimony that proved he lied under oath.
Bonds and Clemons and Arod arent known for being nice or great people either.
i just think cheaters and dopers are cheaters and dopers. Its silly to qualify it. Many other riders participated in this fraud and myth.
Bonds also sued people as well. He sued the Game of Shadows authors who exposed him as a cheater, because they were going to include grand jury testimony that proved he lied under oath.
Bonds and Clemons and Arod arent known for being nice or great people either.
i just think cheaters and dopers are cheaters and dopers. Its silly to qualify it. Many other riders participated in this fraud and myth.
Yeah well Bonds is an asshole too. I don't care about cycling and never gave a crap about Armstrong. If anything, I hated having to sit through coverage of his bike races. But I love baseball and I'll say this: I agree with your "cheaters and dopers are cheaters and dopers" stance. But remember, it wasn't against the rules in baseball for quite some time. I'm pretty sure (though not completely positive) that the stuff McGuire was on in '98 weren't banned by MLB (though they should have been because they were banned by the NFL and International Olympic Committee). That's why I don't like these Baseball writers sitting on their high horses denying guys entry to the Hall of Fame. PED use was not only allowed by MLB in the late 90's, it was sorta encouraged with the whole "chicks dig the long ball" stuff.
For a while, I was one of those "fuck these cheaters!" guys. But then I too had to get off my high horse. If I feel that Barry Bonds' records aren't legit, then my beloved 1993 Phillies pennant isn't legit because their best player (Dykstra) was juiced out of his mind that year. And since I'm not about to give up my childhood memory of that 1993 postseason, I'm not gonna begrudge anybody who has fond memories of Bonds, A-Rod, Lance, or whoever. But as I said before, I've never liked Lance so to see him dragged through shit is alright with me.
I do have a question for fellow tour fans. I stopped watching it in 2008 or so, because i felt like the everyone was doping. i havent watched it since.
Lance seemed to suggest, and Ive heard others say, the tour is now cleaned up.
Is this true? Is it alot harder for cyclists to dope now? Lance mentioned the biological passport and other new testing measures that have made it alot harder to cheat or elude or cheat drug tests. Is this correct?
During those years, 1999-2005, i did find cycling and the tour lots of fun to watch. But on the flip side, i also, find watching both MLB and cycling nowadays pointless because how can you trust anyone who wins or does anything.
Music, how do you feel about Lance suing the Sun Times in London because they wrote an article about Lance doping? They paid a settlement to Lance. He made money off of the paper telling the truth. Has any of these other athletes you compare Lance to done that?
Music, how do you feel about Lance talking about Betsy Andreau for the last 15 years or so? And when I say "talking about" I mean calling her a liar, crazy, a bitch, vindictive? And he said this because she told the truth under oath about what Lance said in a hospital room - when he admitted to taking PEDs prior to his cancer diagnosis.
How do you feel about Lance sabotaging Frankie Andreau after he and Betsy testified under oath about Lance's doping? Frankie quit his pro cycling career because of the pressure for him to dope. Since then Lance has done everything in his power to keep Frankie from working in the cycling profession. Lance has been successful in costing Frankie several jobs during his life. What other doping sports professionals have done that to others?
How do you feel about Lance slandering Emma O'Reilly, his former soigneur? He made public statements saying that she slept with many guys on the team, called her a whore, said she lied, and said she was a drunk. Why? Because she spoke to David Walsh about Lance's doping. She told the truth. Lance even sued her! A simple masseuse, who had the misfortune to cross big bad ass Lance. How many other doping professionals have done that.
How do you feel about Lance chasing down a breakaway group in the 2004 TDF and telling the group the pelaton will not let them get away as long as Phillipe Simeoni was in the group? Simeoni ended up dropping from the breakaway due to Lance's threat. And for a cyclist that is not a GC (general classification) contender, a sprinter, or a climber a chance to get in a breakaway is the only chance to win and get some TDF glory. Also, Ekimov, one of Lances most loyal team mates spit on Simeoni. Why the hate towards Simeoni? He got tested positive and instead of fighting it he cooperated with authorities and told them he had been working with the doping doctor, Michele Ferrari, who was also Lance's doping doctor. Lance was pissed that his doctor was threatened.
Music, have you read the USADA report? If not, at least look at the affidavits that are attached to the report - specifically Dave Zabriskie.
How do you feel about Lance suing SCA for his bonus money? SCA denied his bonus because of Lance's doping history. The bonuses were contingent upon him winning without doping. Lance won that case (through a settlement I think) and received millions more because of his lying and bullying. Lance testified under oath in that case at a deposition that he had not doped and that he would never, never dope.
HOw do you feel about Christophe Bassons? He was a pro French cyclist who refused to dope. Lance bullied him out of cycling. Google him and read his story.
How do you feel about Mike Anderson? Google Mike Anderson and read his story.
HOw do you feel about Lance snitching on Tyler? Tyler Hamilton left Lance's team. That really pissed Lance off. To Lance that is disloyal. And Tyler was doing well that season and it rubbed Lance the wrong way. He told UCI (whom he had in his pocket) to "pop" him. They did and Tyler got caught. How many other doping professionals do you know that turn in other athletes because they are threatened by their success? How many other doping professionals have the power and money to control the organization that is in charge of athlete discipline? Lance had that power and he abused it.
O.K. I've rambled on enough. Just from what I've read Music seems to focus on the doping aspect only. There is so much more to Lance's story - abuse, bullying, etc.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals. Ghandi
Bonds also sued people as well. He sued the Game of Shadows authors who exposed him as a cheater, because they were going to include grand jury testimony that proved he lied under oath.
Bonds and Clemons and Arod arent known for being nice or great people either.
i just think cheaters and dopers are cheaters and dopers. Its silly to qualify it. Many other riders participated in this fraud and myth.
Yeah well Bonds is an asshole too. I don't care about cycling and never gave a crap about Armstrong. If anything, I hated having to sit through coverage of his bike races. But I love baseball and I'll say this: I agree with your "cheaters and dopers are cheaters and dopers" stance. But remember, it wasn't against the rules in baseball for quite some time. I'm pretty sure (though not completely positive) that the stuff McGuire was on in '98 weren't banned by MLB (though they should have been because they were banned by the NFL and International Olympic Committee). That's why I don't like these Baseball writers sitting on their high horses denying guys entry to the Hall of Fame. PED use was not only allowed by MLB in the late 90's, it was sorta encouraged with the whole "chicks dig the long ball" stuff.
For a while, I was one of those "fuck these cheaters!" guys. But then I too had to get off my high horse. If I feel that Barry Bonds' records aren't legit, then my beloved 1993 Phillies pennant isn't legit because their best player (Dykstra) was juiced out of his mind that year. And since I'm not about to give up my childhood memory of that 1993 postseason, I'm not gonna begrudge anybody who has fond memories of Bonds, A-Rod, Lance, or whoever. But as I said before, I've never liked Lance so to see him dragged through shit is alright with me.
thanks for the honest and thoughtful response. your second paragraph is my stance on lance and his cheating. Those 7 Tours and what he stood for meant something to me. Meant something to my family. And thats hard for some people to understand. I fully admit, I know nothing about the Philles and have heard Dykstras name but couldnt identify him from Adam. The Phillies winning the pennant means nothing to me because it wasnt part of my childhood and i wasnt into baseball then. That said, im not going to blast you or call you an idiot for supporting them even if as you say Dykstra used steroids (i really know nothing about him so this is news to me).
that said, i do think what most people seem to think is that you cant hold 2 ideas at the same time. People seem unwilling to say what Lance did when he lied, cheated, sued, harassed and on and on. That was obviously wrong and bad. But if you say something positive about the guy, its like "but he cheated, he cant have positive traits or be good at all, he's evil and bad solely". I think thats a myopic view of human beings and of Lance or any person. No one is all one thing. The thought process seems to be, unless I say he should be hung, or if i stick up for him in one manner, im somehow excusing or legitimizing the wrongs he's done. And thats just not true and furthermore its downright silly.
Its understandable people are upset. Some of us were and are fans of lance and defended the guy for years, and were inspired by his riding. People are works in progress. Im not able to go from, "i support the guy" to "lets throw him in jail".
I think the letter Oprah read during the interview sums up alot of supporters views on lance. We hate what he did. We feel let down. We feel sad. But I know I still support LiveStrong. I think its a fantastic organization, its a great website.
All those Nike commercials he appeared in, those inspired me when they aired. And I know they inspired many others as well. Theres a ting of sadness to view them now, but they are still awesome commercials, I watched them today and still find them powerful, moving and inspiring.
That one where he talks about people who say "what are you on?". Of course, its upsetting to see now, especially given i believed him. But, does that make the overall message less powerful? I find it just as riveting as I did in 2001. Even more so.
Music, how do you feel about Lance suing the Sun Times in London because they wrote an article about Lance doping? They paid a settlement to Lance. He made money off of the paper telling the truth. Has any of these other athletes you compare Lance to done that?
Music, how do you feel about Lance talking about Betsy Andreau for the last 15 years or so? And when I say "talking about" I mean calling her a liar, crazy, a bitch, vindictive? And he said this because she told the truth under oath about what Lance said in a hospital room - when he admitted to taking PEDs prior to his cancer diagnosis.
How do you feel about Lance sabotaging Frankie Andreau after he and Betsy testified under oath about Lance's doping? Frankie quit his pro cycling career because of the pressure for him to dope. Since then Lance has done everything in his power to keep Frankie from working in the cycling profession. Lance has been successful in costing Frankie several jobs during his life. What other doping sports professionals have done that to others?
How do you feel about Lance slandering Emma O'Reilly, his former soigneur? He made public statements saying that she slept with many guys on the team, called her a whore, said she lied, and said she was a drunk. Why? Because she spoke to David Walsh about Lance's doping. She told the truth. Lance even sued her! A simple masseuse, who had the misfortune to cross big bad ass Lance. How many other doping professionals have done that.
How do you feel about Lance chasing down a breakaway group in the 2004 TDF and telling the group the pelaton will not let them get away as long as Phillipe Simeoni was in the group? Simeoni ended up dropping from the breakaway due to Lance's threat. And for a cyclist that is not a GC (general classification) contender, a sprinter, or a climber a chance to get in a breakaway is the only chance to win and get some TDF glory. Also, Ekimov, one of Lances most loyal team mates spit on Simeoni. Why the hate towards Simeoni? He got tested positive and instead of fighting it he cooperated with authorities and told them he had been working with the doping doctor, Michele Ferrari, who was also Lance's doping doctor. Lance was pissed that his doctor was threatened.
Music, have you read the USADA report? If not, at least look at the affidavits that are attached to the report - specifically Dave Zabriskie.
How do you feel about Lance suing SCA for his bonus money? SCA denied his bonus because of Lance's doping history. The bonuses were contingent upon him winning without doping. Lance won that case (through a settlement I think) and received millions more because of his lying and bullying. Lance testified under oath in that case at a deposition that he had not doped and that he would never, never dope.
HOw do you feel about Christophe Bassons? He was a pro French cyclist who refused to dope. Lance bullied him out of cycling. Google him and read his story.
How do you feel about Mike Anderson? Google Mike Anderson and read his story.
HOw do you feel about Lance snitching on Tyler? Tyler Hamilton left Lance's team. That really pissed Lance off. To Lance that is disloyal. And Tyler was doing well that season and it rubbed Lance the wrong way. He told UCI (whom he had in his pocket) to "pop" him. They did and Tyler got caught. How many other doping professionals do you know that turn in other athletes because they are threatened by their success? How many other doping professionals have the power and money to control the organization that is in charge of athlete discipline? Lance had that power and he abused it.
O.K. I've rambled on enough. Just from what I've read Music seems to focus on the doping aspect only. There is so much more to Lance's story - abuse, bullying, etc.
I am aware of all this. I supported the guy, and until the Oprah interview believed him. He did alot of wrong. But he took a first step. He is in a pretty damn vulnerable spot. He's nude, exposed, the image he convinced the public of, and he convinced himself of, for 15 years, is gone. Who he was for nearly 2 decades is gone. Thats rock bottom. Thats a scary place to be in. He;s human and he made some horrible mistakes. Personally, I think, this is the hardest battle he will fight, other than cancer. To come back from this, not necessarily to race, or run triathelons. But as a person, as a human. As a good guy. What will he do the rest of his life? Its wide open, and whats good for him is, he can decide. He can be or do absolutely anything.
I dont write people off. People change and do change. Someone who is a liar and cheat today, could be an honest kind person in a few years.
I'd be lying myself, if I said, I wasnt disappointed. Maybe none of you viewed him as a hero and viewed those 7 tours as amazing to watch. I did. It meant something to me personally.
But I think what he's facing now, is more impressive than tackling Mont Ventoux, or riding 2,000 miles in July. To me, he isnt deleted from my heroes list.
In fact, to come back from all this, become a better person, to dedicate his life to cancer awareness and all that, if thats his legacy, that would be impressive. As Oprah said, you can either be a jerk or humanitarian. I think it would be great if lance continued on with the humanitarian and activist aspect and spent the rest of his life rehabilitating himself.
As Ledbetterman said, i dont expect everyone to understand my views here, but i should be allowed to view lance as a hero just as anyone who says they dont think of him as a hero is allowed to do.
none of my heroes are perfect or all good. I couldnt relate to a hero that was. I make mistakes, my life isnt perfect, i have problems and stumble and fall and all that. Having heroes that reflect that only makes sense. A hero that had no problems didnt make mistakes, didnt mess up, what purpose would that serve me? I cant relate to that.
none of my heroes are perfect or all good. I couldnt relate to a hero that was. I make mistakes, my life isnt perfect, i have problems and stumble and fall and all that. Having heroes that reflect that only makes sense. A hero that had no problems didnt make mistakes, didnt mess up, what purpose would that serve me? I cant relate to that.
To me there is a difference between a hero not being perfect and one whose every action was only to benefit himself. Those Nike commercials you talk about that were inspiring? He got big, big bucks to do those commercials. They were creations by an advertising company. The cancer he had very well could have been a result of his use of PED's. His creation of the foundation made him a "brand" - a money making brand. Tell me what heroic things he has done in his life. I don't see any.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals. Ghandi
none of my heroes are perfect or all good. I couldnt relate to a hero that was. I make mistakes, my life isnt perfect, i have problems and stumble and fall and all that. Having heroes that reflect that only makes sense. A hero that had no problems didnt make mistakes, didnt mess up, what purpose would that serve me? I cant relate to that.
To me there is a difference between a hero not being perfect and one whose every action was only to benefit himself. Those Nike commercials you talk about that were inspiring? He got big, big bucks to do those commercials. They were creations by an advertising company. The cancer he had very well could have been a result of his use of PED's. His creation of the foundation made him a "brand" - a money making brand. Tell me what heroic things he has done in his life. I don't see any.
you are assuming that everything a cheater or liar does is done out of self interest and to gain something. Again, people seem to have a hard time believing people can be both good and bad at the same time. We all are personally. We may lie to loved ones, but its a white lie, its not a big lie. We may fib, but we arent fibbing about major things like murder. We may lie on that job application but thats a small lie, and everyone does it. Yet we fully can call ourselves good people. You are also assuming he will ALWAYS be a liar and cheater, and that he wont fully be honest or do something for the common good ever.
MLK while demanding equal rights and standing up for the abused, and downtrodden, was cheating on his wife, and thus was a cheater, and you could even argue that while he demanded rights for all human beings, had trouble seeing women as deserving of those rights. One of his most trusted advisors, was a truly interesting and understudied historical figure named Bayard Rustin, who was gay. MLK and Rustin had a contentous relationship and its often argued King forced Rustin to leave the movement. The idea that MLK is rightly seen as one of the greatest figures of the 20th century, and at the same time was less than interested in the womens movement, feminism, honesty in marriage, and gay rights, is the point im arguing, He held all these views at once. He wasnt just one thing. He was all of it. Good and bad.
The fact he got paid for the commercials means little to me. Ive admitted time and again my hatred of cheating and my sadness about all this. That doesnt mean however, that I cant find the commercials inspiring or cant give money to Livestrong and view it as a good organization.
What people seem to be suggesting is Lance does everything to benefit himself. That anything he's done has only been because he has a huge ego. And wants money or fame or whatever.
Very few human beings are like that. People are complex. Its such an easy thing to broad brush someone. Oh they are evil.
I am inspired by Steve Jobs as well. Id consider him a hero. Apple created some amazing products, changed the world and music forever, and their ad campaigns are inspiring to me. But was Steve Jobs perfect? Was he without flaws? Im fully aware the iPod that changed music forever, was made by some starving child in indonesia, and its sold for hundreds of dollars and that child gets 10 cents. Im fully aware of this. And can simotaneously castigate the barbaric sweatshop practices, and also think Apple is a great company.
Or take someone like Dov Charney. He created American Apparel. The company is among the most socially conscious, their benefits package is amazing, they pay workers fairly, I saw somewhere they give the workers who actually make the clothes good wages. You couldnt ask for a better benefits and socially conscious company. At the same time Charney's behavior, walking around in underwear at the office, the bizaare ads he picks, posting nude womens photos on his office wall. This clearly isnt the most friendly or comfortable working environment. But, the company and he have done alot of amazing work, make great clothes.
none of my heroes are perfect or all good. I couldnt relate to a hero that was. I make mistakes, my life isnt perfect, i have problems and stumble and fall and all that. Having heroes that reflect that only makes sense. A hero that had no problems didnt make mistakes, didnt mess up, what purpose would that serve me? I cant relate to that.
To me there is a difference between a hero not being perfect and one whose every action was only to benefit himself. Those Nike commercials you talk about that were inspiring? He got big, big bucks to do those commercials. They were creations by an advertising company. The cancer he had very well could have been a result of his use of PED's. His creation of the foundation made him a "brand" - a money making brand. Tell me what heroic things he has done in his life. I don't see any.
I dont think you can say he started Livestrong to only benefit himself. Many athletes and celebrities have foundations and give to causes. Seems to me, if you are self obsessed and completely ego driven, spending free time creating an organization that aims to help others and lobbying congress on behalf of others, seems like thats a strange way to go about it.
i also think its safe to say, had the USADA not been as gung ho about all this, if they didnt subpeona Hamilton and others and force them to testify, every single one of them would, including lance would probably still be saying they were innocent.
Alot of them only told the truth because they were forced to. Hamilton had lied for nearly a decade. I find it hard to believe he would have changed course and admitted it, had he not been subpeoned
Bonds also sued people as well. He sued the Game of Shadows authors who exposed him as a cheater, because they were going to include grand jury testimony that proved he lied under oath.
uh....actually he didn't.....and he never wrapped himself in the american flag.....and he never sucked up to an american president....and he make nearly squadouche on endorsements :?
If I had known then what I know now...
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Bonds also sued people as well. He sued the Game of Shadows authors who exposed him as a cheater, because they were going to include grand jury testimony that proved he lied under oath.
uh....actually he didn't.....and he never wrapped himself in the american flag.....and he never sucked up to an american president....and he make nearly squadouche on endorsements :?
Actually he did. Bush called Bonds and congratulated him the night he "broke" Aarons record. And a simple Google search reveals Bonds did sue the authors of Game of Shadows. But later dropped it because he felt the lawsuit was "duplicative".
As for his salary, Bonds made 15 million alone in 2007 the year he broke the record. And the year prior made 20 million, the 4th highest salary in baseball. From 1986 to 2006, in 21 years, he made 176 million, making him at that time the highest paid baseball player in history.
I do have a question for fellow tour fans. I stopped watching it in 2008 or so, because i felt like the everyone was doping. i havent watched it since.
Lance seemed to suggest, and Ive heard others say, the tour is now cleaned up.
Is this true? Is it alot harder for cyclists to dope now? Lance mentioned the biological passport and other new testing measures that have made it alot harder to cheat or elude or cheat drug tests. Is this correct?
During those years, 1999-2005, i did find cycling and the tour lots of fun to watch. But on the flip side, i also, find watching both MLB and cycling nowadays pointless because how can you trust anyone who wins or does anything.
Was the 2012 tour clean? Will the 2013 be?
It is harder to dope now and it's the cleanest it's ever been, both based on testing, teams emphasizing their own internal controls, biological passport info, and how the race has played out as well as the watt readings guys are putting up. The race has been more interesting lately, because it's more of a battle between multiple riders and teams, rather than two juiced guys and their doped teammates leaving everyone else in the dust.
You point out the other edge of the sword with such a high level of testing within cycling;they end up catching a lot of dopers, which then creates an uneasiness and distrust in the winners. The focus on creating a clean sport also creates doubt. If the NFL tested and consequenced players the same a cycling, the sport would be decimated. There's a certain level of denial in a lot of other professional sports.
I do have a question for fellow tour fans. I stopped watching it in 2008 or so, because i felt like the everyone was doping. i havent watched it since.
Lance seemed to suggest, and Ive heard others say, the tour is now cleaned up.
Is this true? Is it alot harder for cyclists to dope now? Lance mentioned the biological passport and other new testing measures that have made it alot harder to cheat or elude or cheat drug tests. Is this correct?
During those years, 1999-2005, i did find cycling and the tour lots of fun to watch. But on the flip side, i also, find watching both MLB and cycling nowadays pointless because how can you trust anyone who wins or does anything.
Was the 2012 tour clean? Will the 2013 be?
It is harder to dope now and it's the cleanest it's ever been, both based on testing, teams emphasizing their own internal controls, biological passport info, and how the race has played out as well as the watt readings guys are putting up. The race has been more interesting lately, because it's more of a battle between multiple riders and teams, rather than two juiced guys and their doped teammates leaving everyone else in the dust.
You point out the other edge of the sword with such a high level of testing within cycling;they end up catching a lot of dopers, which then creates an uneasiness and distrust in the winners. The focus on creating a clean sport also creates doubt. If the NFL tested and consequenced players the same a cycling, the sport would be decimated. There's a certain level of denial in a lot of other professional sports.
maybe i'll watch in june this year. But I kind of think it wont be the same feeling I got back in those Lance years. For me at least, when I was watching those wins, doping hardly entered my mind. I remember it being an issue of course but at the time Lance seemed like one of the few clean riders. His story just transcended everything. Thats why everyone fell in love with the guy. Cycling didnt mean a thing to me prior to 1999. Nor had i ever watched a single Tour prior to Lance winning, or a single race period. I think that was a common experience among people during that time. And the way he and his team would win. They absolutely crushed every other rider and team. it was just so exciting to watch, and this was coming from, and still comes from a guy who isnt a big sports fan. I had a blast following Lance's progress each day. My parents had basic cable at the time, and called the cable company to order the Outdoor Channel. I remember excited to wake up early in the morning to check out the results of the day or to catch maybe the last 20 minutes of the race since the time difference would make it so the race would be over by about 9 in the morning my time. I remember being inspired by those amazing Nike commercials, and Im not a usual Nike supporter, in fact at that time I was a pretty big activist, so it was something indeed to think those commercials and the Livestrong gear was awesome. I wore the yellow bracelet for a good 3 or 4 years, maybe more. Every single day. Ive never been that into bike riding, but around those years, I remember bike riding in the summer and saying "im riding like Lance" to my parents. And how something like riding my bike which had been meaningless to me prior, now was cool, and fun. And I remember just being out and out inspired by Lance in general. The guy was told he had a few months to live, the cancer spread, and instead of giving up and hiding under the covers, he fought back and ended up winning the hardest sporting event in the world 7 times in a row. It was just such an incredible time and feeling we all felt.
Whats sad is I dont know if that feeling will ever come back. Im not too familiar with any of the current riders in the Tour, but with all sports now, we will forever wonder, "is this guy doping and cheating" "did he win this legitimately"? And the story, the backstory, the emotional and personal connection is something I dont think i'll find any time soon either.
It was just such a magical time back then. And i'd be lying if I said I didnt wish I could return back to that time, and feel all that again, thinking that doping wasnt widespread and that everyone was clean.
I do have a question for fellow tour fans. I stopped watching it in 2008 or so, because i felt like the everyone was doping. i havent watched it since.
Lance seemed to suggest, and Ive heard others say, the tour is now cleaned up.
Is this true? Is it alot harder for cyclists to dope now? Lance mentioned the biological passport and other new testing measures that have made it alot harder to cheat or elude or cheat drug tests. Is this correct?
During those years, 1999-2005, i did find cycling and the tour lots of fun to watch. But on the flip side, i also, find watching both MLB and cycling nowadays pointless because how can you trust anyone who wins or does anything.
Was the 2012 tour clean? Will the 2013 be?
It is harder to dope now and it's the cleanest it's ever been, both based on testing, teams emphasizing their own internal controls, biological passport info, and how the race has played out as well as the watt readings guys are putting up. The race has been more interesting lately, because it's more of a battle between multiple riders and teams, rather than two juiced guys and their doped teammates leaving everyone else in the dust.
You point out the other edge of the sword with such a high level of testing within cycling;they end up catching a lot of dopers, which then creates an uneasiness and distrust in the winners. The focus on creating a clean sport also creates doubt. If the NFL tested and consequenced players the same a cycling, the sport would be decimated. There's a certain level of denial in a lot of other professional sports.
Im not sure if thats necessarily the reason why i or many other people distrust sports in general. In fact, had sports in general done its job these last 20 years, these scandals wouldnt have even have occured. The cheaters would have been weeded out, and doping would have been punished and not celebrated. I think the general public is distrustful of sports accomplishments right now, because of how genuinely widespread the doping and cheating scandals are. They dont just involve a few big names. They involve hundreds of athletes from every single sport. And all occurred with the blessing or the tacit approval of those in charge, and the people who could have done something to stop it. Just like with the Penn State scandal, if you are making money and sucessful and big news, people can turn a blind eye to some pretty horrific and blatant stuff. All these dopers and cheaters should and could have gotten caught if the powers that be in each sport had actually wanted to catch them. Thats the disturbing thing about it all to me, Selig and the UCI and whoever else, those people who knew this was going on, and did nothing to stop it.
I dont know what that mindset is, Of the Seligs of the world. They know Mcgwire, Sosa, Clemons, Bonds and everyone else is using. But do nothing, refuse to blow the whistle on the players, and allow the charade to continue on, all because they are all making serious money off everything. To me, that should be punishable just as doping is. Selig is as much to blame as any athlete is.
A vast majority of those slamming Lance would have done just as he did.
Faced with that fork in the road, of cheating in a cheating ridden sport to become wealthy beyond your imagination at minimal risk......or being one of a number of cyclists battling to win against people doping, then have a think .....what would you have done? the moral compass is all well and good when its someone else.
However his actions against a great many people stinks. The man is a twat plain and simple but i dont say that because he doped.
I do have a question for fellow tour fans. I stopped watching it in 2008 or so, because i felt like the everyone was doping. i havent watched it since.
Lance seemed to suggest, and Ive heard others say, the tour is now cleaned up.
Is this true? Is it alot harder for cyclists to dope now? Lance mentioned the biological passport and other new testing measures that have made it alot harder to cheat or elude or cheat drug tests. Is this correct?
During those years, 1999-2005, i did find cycling and the tour lots of fun to watch. But on the flip side, i also, find watching both MLB and cycling nowadays pointless because how can you trust anyone who wins or does anything.
Was the 2012 tour clean? Will the 2013 be?
cycling is as clean as it ever has been ... still not perfect but when jobs and money are on the line - you have to expect the worse ...
since the scandals - cycling HAD to impose some of the hardest testing programs out there ... plus, there was an internal movement by some key people to just race clean ... there is a faction of teams that have joined a pact called the MPCC which pledges to adhere to a compliance protocol that is even stricter than WADA ... the biometrics todays top riders are putting forth are much more reasonable ... things such as their wattage per kilo of body weight was something i alluded to in the past to prove that lance doped ... the bioryhthmic nature of performance also suggests cleaner riders (having bad days) ...
last year's 3 grand tour winners were Ryder Hesjedal, Bradley Wiggins and Alberto Contador ... the only guy there i'm not sure was clean was contador ... the first two i am pretty sure rode clean for a plethora of reasons which include the numbers they were putting and the times they were setting plus how they suffered at various points in their races ...
as a longtime cycling fan - i believe it is as exciting as ever ... this year's grand tours are gonna be nothing short of spectacular ... lots of talent at the top and it will truly require not only extreme fitness but team work, guts and lots of luck to win ...
it's the 100th anniversary of the tdf ... it's the one everyone wants to win ... right now the favourites would have to be:
chris froome, alberto contador, joaquim rodriguez ... but there are others that will play a part and have chances to win ... andy shleck, ryder hesjedal, tj van garderen, bradley wiggins, jurgen van der broeck ...
lots of top level talent ... if you're a fan of cycling you should be watching all the grand tours ... if you're a fan of lance - don't bother ...
A vast majority of those slamming Lance would have done just as he did.
Faced with that fork in the road, of cheating in a cheating ridden sport to become wealthy beyond your imagination at minimal risk......or being one of a number of cyclists battling to win against people doping, then have a think .....what would you have done? the moral compass is all well and good when its someone else.
However his actions against a great many people stinks. The man is a twat plain and simple but i dont say that because he doped.
exactly ... that is the sentiment pretty much everyone here shares except music ... we understand the context of his doping ... our disdain for him is who he is as a human being ... he's a bully, a narcissist, a liar and a huge fraud ... his exploitation of cancer should put him the hall of shame alone ... the guy has made more money off livestrong than should be considered reasonable considering his earnings from his athletic side ...
and this recent interview with oprah shows once again what his true colours are ... he is STILL LYING ... how pathetic is that? ... awful ...
none of my heroes are perfect or all good. I couldnt relate to a hero that was. I make mistakes, my life isnt perfect, i have problems and stumble and fall and all that. Having heroes that reflect that only makes sense. A hero that had no problems didnt make mistakes, didnt mess up, what purpose would that serve me? I cant relate to that.
this is what is called self-rationalization ... it's like you want to bury your face in fried chicken wings despite having heart problems and cholesterol issues and you make up an excuse as to why you should eat them ...
we understand that lance was a hero to you in many ways ... he was a hero to many ... what we are trying to explain to you is that he is a fraud ... the aspects of lance that made him a hero to you were partly fabricated to build his brand and hid what his true nature was ... there are plenty of people worthy of hero status ... and i can guarantee you they are all flawed in one way or another ... we don't look for perfection in heros ... we should not look for perfection in humans period ... what we should look for is at the very least integrity and truth ... something that if we all aspired to - would make the world a heckuva lot better place ...
you don't need to self-rationalize your faith in him in the past nor continue to support a man that despite all that has happened continues to LIE and serve only his own interests ... it can be argued that he is more of a fraud today than he was prior to the interview ...
the truth would set lance free ... it's time you set yourself free ... it's okay to be wrong in this world ... it doesn't make us bad people ...
A vast majority of those slamming Lance would have done just as he did.
Faced with that fork in the road, of cheating in a cheating ridden sport to become wealthy beyond your imagination at minimal risk......or being one of a number of cyclists battling to win against people doping, then have a think .....what would you have done? the moral compass is all well and good when its someone else.
However his actions against a great many people stinks. The man is a twat plain and simple but i dont say that because he doped.
not only that i think its pretty clear he lied for so many years because he was in the unique position of doing tremendous good with Livestrong and became this worldwide symbol of cancer survival. I have little doubt that part of his decision to lie for so many years had to do with the idea that if he told the truth he would be letting alot of people down. This is unique in the history of doping in sports so far. Its not like Bonds or Giambi or Canseco were lying because they felt like they'd let millions of cancer survivors down. I think the fact that his story and the connection he had with people, the fact that it caught like wildfire and spread, I think that caught lance by surprise, and he was left with options. He could continue doping, which he accurately says he and everyone else at the time felt was so commonplace it wasnt cheating. Or he could own up to it, and let down millions of people, millions of people by this time had bought those yellow bracelets etc... Makes sense to me the psychology of why he'd lie for so many years. Thats not to excuse what he did, but for me, that makes sense why he did it.
We all know lying and cheating and bullying is bad. But its never been as black and white as that.
Personally I think the lie just snowballed. I think its even possible he considered coming clean in the beginning, but didnt know how to do so with the weight of what he was becoming in the public's eyes at that point.
For me, the interview just showed what the weight of a lie can have on a person and their family. He truely was torn apart, and his life was ruined by the lies he told.
Comments
Repectfully music, enough. Please. The Arod/Giambi argument doesn't work here. Here's why:
Neither will be going to the Hall of Fame. Ever.
Neither of them SUED PEOPLE FOR LIBEL AND PUT IT IN PEOPLES FACES.
You keep missing the bigger point. Lance is a class A douche. He didn't apologize until it was too late. He sued people for libel. He made $$$ based on a myth. He lived a lie on the course AND OFF OF IT. He exploited the hearts and caring souls by pretending to be something he wasn't. How you continue to defend this fraud is mind-boggling to me.
Giambi fessed up. ARod fessed up. They aren't representing organizations that prey on peoples sickness.
Lance's 'apology' is horse-pucky and doesn't come from a genuine place of contrition. He is doing it to compete again.
The guy ruined a organization people believed in. The guy took a sport "nobody cares about", put it on his back and was an inspiration - BASED ON A LIE.
It takes a lotta ball to pull off what he did(
He's a fraud. Find a new hero. Find a cancer patient without celebrity who is overcoming without attaching it to some stupid yellow bracelet that represents lies, fraud and now saddness for millions. Find a patient in a center near you. Learn their story. Help them. Believe in their will and determination. Put that belief to good use and help a local chapter heal others in your community.
I've read your posts, and while I don't agree with some, you are a LOT brighter than this.
Nobody cares about cycling outside of cycling fanatics. Guarantee this is the cherry that puts the "who gives a shit" on the ratings for this years TDF, btw. Bradley Wiggins who? Most people would trip over him in a deli and have no clue who he is. Sad. Lance ruined a foundation and a sport. And yet you cheer and root for this despicable walk of life.
To each his own.
7.9.03~9.28.04~10.1.05~5.12.06~5.13.06~5.27.06~5.28.06
8.5.08(EV)~10.9.09~5.21.10~6.20.11(EV)~7.5.11(EV)~7.9.11(EV)
11.21.13~8.27.16(EV)~11.14.16(TOTD)~4.13.20~9.27.20~9.26.21~10.2.21
2.15.22 (EV)~2.25.22 (EV)~2.27.22 (EV)~5.3.22~5.7.22~9.17.24~9.29.24
Totally agree. Can you imagine what it was like for these people being sued by Lance? Think about how much it cost to hire lawyers to compete with Lance's lawyers. They should all sue Lance for slander and monetary damages. The baseball players cheated themselves and the game...but they didn't maliciously try to hurt anybody else. That's what Lance did. And for the most part, these were people who were subpoenaed to testify against him. They didn't just come out of the woodwork like a bunch of rats just to get him. They were summoned to testify. They testified the truth, and Lance tried to destroy their lives. He's a total piece of shit.
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
So lance is the only person who acheived fame and wealth via using drugs and lying about it? You seen what Arod and Giambi are paid every year? What about Clemons, the guy prior to doping exposure was considered one of the greatest pitchers to ever play. What about Bonds? The guy was doping for years, made millions during that time period and allowed the public to give him the title "Home Run King of all time".
Whether ARod or Clemons ever make it INTO the HOF is one thing. I think most people view both as 2 of the greatest to ever play the game. The fact both acheived those stats while doping and lying about it is another issue.
Sports are messed up. And focusing on one rider and athlete does a major disservice to what should be the ultimate goal post doping scandal in all sports. That is to clean up all sports, and make sure stuff like this doesnt happen again.
None of these guys admitted to it for years. Bonds STILL hasnt admitted to it. And has lied for decades. Was Clemons chomping at the bit to confess? How about Palmiero? Or ARod?
The only REASON they confessed was because they were found out. They were named in the Mitchell report.
And beyond that its not like Basso, Ulrich, Hamilton and the the like were making pennies while Lance was raking in millions. All those guys were making bank and were lying to the public.
Wake up friend. Lots of people made money off the myth. The journalists and cycling world as a whole, who had no problem making millions during those 7 tours and said nothing all the while they knew 80 percent was doping. Selig and other heads made millions and did nothing to stop the doping because they had come off hellish years post strike and the world now viewed baseball as the national pastime again in 98.
Lance was one of hundreds, thousands even who made money off lies and myths. The myth was so big, it even involved CEO's, commissioners, team doctors and leaders from other countries and other teams, and on and on. Other teammates, other teams, managers, officials, leaders.
Again, lets have an honest conversation about cleaning sports up.
Lance was rare because he sued others, but its crystal clear, he could have not done that, and would have been fine. The entire sports world was covering up the fact in all sports doping was the rule not the exception. Everyone was doing it. Everyone knew about it, from the athletes to the higher ups. And everyone was involved in the cover up.
I think people like Selig and team managers in baseball, and in cycling the officials who knew everyone was doping, they share as much of the blame as any of the athletes who doped.
The reason doping was allowed to continue and to permeate the sport was precisely because of their attitude reguarding it.
Whether we are talking cycling officials or Selig, the idea someone wouldnt expose doping because they knew the sport was making money is gross. But its exactly what happened.
Those people should be punished too.
for EVERYONE involved it was about money
and people are STILL making bank off it. The same journalists who made money off Lance and cyclings rise to prominence, are now the same group who are making millions to tear him down. You dont think the journalists and news organizations are making serious money off all this? Its all about ratings and advertising.
If you think only one guy or one team made millions off this you are seriously deluded.
Aaron and Mays weren't clean.
Did you even read my post? I don't care about the money Lance made or the money made off him by journalists or whoever. I said I don't like how he viciously attacked and sued innocent people who were called to testify against him and testified truthfully.
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
Many lied under oath, quite a few, like Palmiero and Mcguire lied in front of congress. Its not like Clemons or ARod happily admitted they doped.
They admitted it because they were caught. Its always like that. Hamilton doped as far back as 2004, probably earlier. he didnt admit it until 2011. You dont think he was doping in 2002 or 2003? He lied and cheated for 7 years before admitting it.
You think Clemons was going to admit he doped if he wasnt brought to trial?
All these guys only confessed when they were caught or cornered.
and people are STILL making bank off it. The same journalists who made money off Lance and cyclings rise to prominence, are now the same group who are making millions to tear him down. You dont think the journalists and news organizations are making serious money off all this? Its all about ratings and advertising.
If you think only one guy or one team made millions off this you are seriously deluded.[/quote]
Did you even read my post? I don't care about the money Lance made or the money made off him by journalists or whoever. I said I don't like how he viciously attacked and sued innocent people who were called to testify against him and testified truthfully.[/quote]
Bonds also sued people as well. He sued the Game of Shadows authors who exposed him as a cheater, because they were going to include grand jury testimony that proved he lied under oath.
Bonds and Clemons and Arod arent known for being nice or great people either.
i just think cheaters and dopers are cheaters and dopers. Its silly to qualify it. Many other riders participated in this fraud and myth.
Yeah well Bonds is an asshole too. I don't care about cycling and never gave a crap about Armstrong. If anything, I hated having to sit through coverage of his bike races. But I love baseball and I'll say this: I agree with your "cheaters and dopers are cheaters and dopers" stance. But remember, it wasn't against the rules in baseball for quite some time. I'm pretty sure (though not completely positive) that the stuff McGuire was on in '98 weren't banned by MLB (though they should have been because they were banned by the NFL and International Olympic Committee). That's why I don't like these Baseball writers sitting on their high horses denying guys entry to the Hall of Fame. PED use was not only allowed by MLB in the late 90's, it was sorta encouraged with the whole "chicks dig the long ball" stuff.
For a while, I was one of those "fuck these cheaters!" guys. But then I too had to get off my high horse. If I feel that Barry Bonds' records aren't legit, then my beloved 1993 Phillies pennant isn't legit because their best player (Dykstra) was juiced out of his mind that year. And since I'm not about to give up my childhood memory of that 1993 postseason, I'm not gonna begrudge anybody who has fond memories of Bonds, A-Rod, Lance, or whoever. But as I said before, I've never liked Lance so to see him dragged through shit is alright with me.
Pearl Jam bootlegs:
http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
Lance seemed to suggest, and Ive heard others say, the tour is now cleaned up.
Is this true? Is it alot harder for cyclists to dope now? Lance mentioned the biological passport and other new testing measures that have made it alot harder to cheat or elude or cheat drug tests. Is this correct?
During those years, 1999-2005, i did find cycling and the tour lots of fun to watch. But on the flip side, i also, find watching both MLB and cycling nowadays pointless because how can you trust anyone who wins or does anything.
Was the 2012 tour clean? Will the 2013 be?
Music, how do you feel about Lance talking about Betsy Andreau for the last 15 years or so? And when I say "talking about" I mean calling her a liar, crazy, a bitch, vindictive? And he said this because she told the truth under oath about what Lance said in a hospital room - when he admitted to taking PEDs prior to his cancer diagnosis.
How do you feel about Lance sabotaging Frankie Andreau after he and Betsy testified under oath about Lance's doping? Frankie quit his pro cycling career because of the pressure for him to dope. Since then Lance has done everything in his power to keep Frankie from working in the cycling profession. Lance has been successful in costing Frankie several jobs during his life. What other doping sports professionals have done that to others?
How do you feel about Lance slandering Emma O'Reilly, his former soigneur? He made public statements saying that she slept with many guys on the team, called her a whore, said she lied, and said she was a drunk. Why? Because she spoke to David Walsh about Lance's doping. She told the truth. Lance even sued her! A simple masseuse, who had the misfortune to cross big bad ass Lance. How many other doping professionals have done that.
How do you feel about Lance chasing down a breakaway group in the 2004 TDF and telling the group the pelaton will not let them get away as long as Phillipe Simeoni was in the group? Simeoni ended up dropping from the breakaway due to Lance's threat. And for a cyclist that is not a GC (general classification) contender, a sprinter, or a climber a chance to get in a breakaway is the only chance to win and get some TDF glory. Also, Ekimov, one of Lances most loyal team mates spit on Simeoni. Why the hate towards Simeoni? He got tested positive and instead of fighting it he cooperated with authorities and told them he had been working with the doping doctor, Michele Ferrari, who was also Lance's doping doctor. Lance was pissed that his doctor was threatened.
Music, have you read the USADA report? If not, at least look at the affidavits that are attached to the report - specifically Dave Zabriskie.
How do you feel about Lance suing SCA for his bonus money? SCA denied his bonus because of Lance's doping history. The bonuses were contingent upon him winning without doping. Lance won that case (through a settlement I think) and received millions more because of his lying and bullying. Lance testified under oath in that case at a deposition that he had not doped and that he would never, never dope.
HOw do you feel about Christophe Bassons? He was a pro French cyclist who refused to dope. Lance bullied him out of cycling. Google him and read his story.
How do you feel about Mike Anderson? Google Mike Anderson and read his story.
HOw do you feel about Lance snitching on Tyler? Tyler Hamilton left Lance's team. That really pissed Lance off. To Lance that is disloyal. And Tyler was doing well that season and it rubbed Lance the wrong way. He told UCI (whom he had in his pocket) to "pop" him. They did and Tyler got caught. How many other doping professionals do you know that turn in other athletes because they are threatened by their success? How many other doping professionals have the power and money to control the organization that is in charge of athlete discipline? Lance had that power and he abused it.
O.K. I've rambled on enough. Just from what I've read Music seems to focus on the doping aspect only. There is so much more to Lance's story - abuse, bullying, etc.
thanks for the honest and thoughtful response. your second paragraph is my stance on lance and his cheating. Those 7 Tours and what he stood for meant something to me. Meant something to my family. And thats hard for some people to understand. I fully admit, I know nothing about the Philles and have heard Dykstras name but couldnt identify him from Adam. The Phillies winning the pennant means nothing to me because it wasnt part of my childhood and i wasnt into baseball then. That said, im not going to blast you or call you an idiot for supporting them even if as you say Dykstra used steroids (i really know nothing about him so this is news to me).
that said, i do think what most people seem to think is that you cant hold 2 ideas at the same time. People seem unwilling to say what Lance did when he lied, cheated, sued, harassed and on and on. That was obviously wrong and bad. But if you say something positive about the guy, its like "but he cheated, he cant have positive traits or be good at all, he's evil and bad solely". I think thats a myopic view of human beings and of Lance or any person. No one is all one thing. The thought process seems to be, unless I say he should be hung, or if i stick up for him in one manner, im somehow excusing or legitimizing the wrongs he's done. And thats just not true and furthermore its downright silly.
Its understandable people are upset. Some of us were and are fans of lance and defended the guy for years, and were inspired by his riding. People are works in progress. Im not able to go from, "i support the guy" to "lets throw him in jail".
I think the letter Oprah read during the interview sums up alot of supporters views on lance. We hate what he did. We feel let down. We feel sad. But I know I still support LiveStrong. I think its a fantastic organization, its a great website.
All those Nike commercials he appeared in, those inspired me when they aired. And I know they inspired many others as well. Theres a ting of sadness to view them now, but they are still awesome commercials, I watched them today and still find them powerful, moving and inspiring.
That one where he talks about people who say "what are you on?". Of course, its upsetting to see now, especially given i believed him. But, does that make the overall message less powerful? I find it just as riveting as I did in 2001. Even more so.
I am aware of all this. I supported the guy, and until the Oprah interview believed him. He did alot of wrong. But he took a first step. He is in a pretty damn vulnerable spot. He's nude, exposed, the image he convinced the public of, and he convinced himself of, for 15 years, is gone. Who he was for nearly 2 decades is gone. Thats rock bottom. Thats a scary place to be in. He;s human and he made some horrible mistakes. Personally, I think, this is the hardest battle he will fight, other than cancer. To come back from this, not necessarily to race, or run triathelons. But as a person, as a human. As a good guy. What will he do the rest of his life? Its wide open, and whats good for him is, he can decide. He can be or do absolutely anything.
I dont write people off. People change and do change. Someone who is a liar and cheat today, could be an honest kind person in a few years.
I'd be lying myself, if I said, I wasnt disappointed. Maybe none of you viewed him as a hero and viewed those 7 tours as amazing to watch. I did. It meant something to me personally.
But I think what he's facing now, is more impressive than tackling Mont Ventoux, or riding 2,000 miles in July. To me, he isnt deleted from my heroes list.
In fact, to come back from all this, become a better person, to dedicate his life to cancer awareness and all that, if thats his legacy, that would be impressive. As Oprah said, you can either be a jerk or humanitarian. I think it would be great if lance continued on with the humanitarian and activist aspect and spent the rest of his life rehabilitating himself.
As Ledbetterman said, i dont expect everyone to understand my views here, but i should be allowed to view lance as a hero just as anyone who says they dont think of him as a hero is allowed to do.
To me there is a difference between a hero not being perfect and one whose every action was only to benefit himself. Those Nike commercials you talk about that were inspiring? He got big, big bucks to do those commercials. They were creations by an advertising company. The cancer he had very well could have been a result of his use of PED's. His creation of the foundation made him a "brand" - a money making brand. Tell me what heroic things he has done in his life. I don't see any.
you are assuming that everything a cheater or liar does is done out of self interest and to gain something. Again, people seem to have a hard time believing people can be both good and bad at the same time. We all are personally. We may lie to loved ones, but its a white lie, its not a big lie. We may fib, but we arent fibbing about major things like murder. We may lie on that job application but thats a small lie, and everyone does it. Yet we fully can call ourselves good people. You are also assuming he will ALWAYS be a liar and cheater, and that he wont fully be honest or do something for the common good ever.
MLK while demanding equal rights and standing up for the abused, and downtrodden, was cheating on his wife, and thus was a cheater, and you could even argue that while he demanded rights for all human beings, had trouble seeing women as deserving of those rights. One of his most trusted advisors, was a truly interesting and understudied historical figure named Bayard Rustin, who was gay. MLK and Rustin had a contentous relationship and its often argued King forced Rustin to leave the movement. The idea that MLK is rightly seen as one of the greatest figures of the 20th century, and at the same time was less than interested in the womens movement, feminism, honesty in marriage, and gay rights, is the point im arguing, He held all these views at once. He wasnt just one thing. He was all of it. Good and bad.
The fact he got paid for the commercials means little to me. Ive admitted time and again my hatred of cheating and my sadness about all this. That doesnt mean however, that I cant find the commercials inspiring or cant give money to Livestrong and view it as a good organization.
What people seem to be suggesting is Lance does everything to benefit himself. That anything he's done has only been because he has a huge ego. And wants money or fame or whatever.
Very few human beings are like that. People are complex. Its such an easy thing to broad brush someone. Oh they are evil.
I am inspired by Steve Jobs as well. Id consider him a hero. Apple created some amazing products, changed the world and music forever, and their ad campaigns are inspiring to me. But was Steve Jobs perfect? Was he without flaws? Im fully aware the iPod that changed music forever, was made by some starving child in indonesia, and its sold for hundreds of dollars and that child gets 10 cents. Im fully aware of this. And can simotaneously castigate the barbaric sweatshop practices, and also think Apple is a great company.
Or take someone like Dov Charney. He created American Apparel. The company is among the most socially conscious, their benefits package is amazing, they pay workers fairly, I saw somewhere they give the workers who actually make the clothes good wages. You couldnt ask for a better benefits and socially conscious company. At the same time Charney's behavior, walking around in underwear at the office, the bizaare ads he picks, posting nude womens photos on his office wall. This clearly isnt the most friendly or comfortable working environment. But, the company and he have done alot of amazing work, make great clothes.
I dont think you can say he started Livestrong to only benefit himself. Many athletes and celebrities have foundations and give to causes. Seems to me, if you are self obsessed and completely ego driven, spending free time creating an organization that aims to help others and lobbying congress on behalf of others, seems like thats a strange way to go about it.
Alot of them only told the truth because they were forced to. Hamilton had lied for nearly a decade. I find it hard to believe he would have changed course and admitted it, had he not been subpeoned
uh....actually he didn't.....and he never wrapped himself in the american flag.....and he never sucked up to an american president....and he make nearly squadouche on endorsements :?
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Actually he did. Bush called Bonds and congratulated him the night he "broke" Aarons record. And a simple Google search reveals Bonds did sue the authors of Game of Shadows. But later dropped it because he felt the lawsuit was "duplicative".
As for his salary, Bonds made 15 million alone in 2007 the year he broke the record. And the year prior made 20 million, the 4th highest salary in baseball. From 1986 to 2006, in 21 years, he made 176 million, making him at that time the highest paid baseball player in history.
It is harder to dope now and it's the cleanest it's ever been, both based on testing, teams emphasizing their own internal controls, biological passport info, and how the race has played out as well as the watt readings guys are putting up. The race has been more interesting lately, because it's more of a battle between multiple riders and teams, rather than two juiced guys and their doped teammates leaving everyone else in the dust.
You point out the other edge of the sword with such a high level of testing within cycling;they end up catching a lot of dopers, which then creates an uneasiness and distrust in the winners. The focus on creating a clean sport also creates doubt. If the NFL tested and consequenced players the same a cycling, the sport would be decimated. There's a certain level of denial in a lot of other professional sports.
maybe i'll watch in june this year. But I kind of think it wont be the same feeling I got back in those Lance years. For me at least, when I was watching those wins, doping hardly entered my mind. I remember it being an issue of course but at the time Lance seemed like one of the few clean riders. His story just transcended everything. Thats why everyone fell in love with the guy. Cycling didnt mean a thing to me prior to 1999. Nor had i ever watched a single Tour prior to Lance winning, or a single race period. I think that was a common experience among people during that time. And the way he and his team would win. They absolutely crushed every other rider and team. it was just so exciting to watch, and this was coming from, and still comes from a guy who isnt a big sports fan. I had a blast following Lance's progress each day. My parents had basic cable at the time, and called the cable company to order the Outdoor Channel. I remember excited to wake up early in the morning to check out the results of the day or to catch maybe the last 20 minutes of the race since the time difference would make it so the race would be over by about 9 in the morning my time. I remember being inspired by those amazing Nike commercials, and Im not a usual Nike supporter, in fact at that time I was a pretty big activist, so it was something indeed to think those commercials and the Livestrong gear was awesome. I wore the yellow bracelet for a good 3 or 4 years, maybe more. Every single day. Ive never been that into bike riding, but around those years, I remember bike riding in the summer and saying "im riding like Lance" to my parents. And how something like riding my bike which had been meaningless to me prior, now was cool, and fun. And I remember just being out and out inspired by Lance in general. The guy was told he had a few months to live, the cancer spread, and instead of giving up and hiding under the covers, he fought back and ended up winning the hardest sporting event in the world 7 times in a row. It was just such an incredible time and feeling we all felt.
Whats sad is I dont know if that feeling will ever come back. Im not too familiar with any of the current riders in the Tour, but with all sports now, we will forever wonder, "is this guy doping and cheating" "did he win this legitimately"? And the story, the backstory, the emotional and personal connection is something I dont think i'll find any time soon either.
It was just such a magical time back then. And i'd be lying if I said I didnt wish I could return back to that time, and feel all that again, thinking that doping wasnt widespread and that everyone was clean.
Im not sure if thats necessarily the reason why i or many other people distrust sports in general. In fact, had sports in general done its job these last 20 years, these scandals wouldnt have even have occured. The cheaters would have been weeded out, and doping would have been punished and not celebrated. I think the general public is distrustful of sports accomplishments right now, because of how genuinely widespread the doping and cheating scandals are. They dont just involve a few big names. They involve hundreds of athletes from every single sport. And all occurred with the blessing or the tacit approval of those in charge, and the people who could have done something to stop it. Just like with the Penn State scandal, if you are making money and sucessful and big news, people can turn a blind eye to some pretty horrific and blatant stuff. All these dopers and cheaters should and could have gotten caught if the powers that be in each sport had actually wanted to catch them. Thats the disturbing thing about it all to me, Selig and the UCI and whoever else, those people who knew this was going on, and did nothing to stop it.
I dont know what that mindset is, Of the Seligs of the world. They know Mcgwire, Sosa, Clemons, Bonds and everyone else is using. But do nothing, refuse to blow the whistle on the players, and allow the charade to continue on, all because they are all making serious money off everything. To me, that should be punishable just as doping is. Selig is as much to blame as any athlete is.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/nation ... 6557777255
FICTION!
Faced with that fork in the road, of cheating in a cheating ridden sport to become wealthy beyond your imagination at minimal risk......or being one of a number of cyclists battling to win against people doping, then have a think .....what would you have done? the moral compass is all well and good when its someone else.
However his actions against a great many people stinks. The man is a twat plain and simple but i dont say that because he doped.
cycling is as clean as it ever has been ... still not perfect but when jobs and money are on the line - you have to expect the worse ...
since the scandals - cycling HAD to impose some of the hardest testing programs out there ... plus, there was an internal movement by some key people to just race clean ... there is a faction of teams that have joined a pact called the MPCC which pledges to adhere to a compliance protocol that is even stricter than WADA ... the biometrics todays top riders are putting forth are much more reasonable ... things such as their wattage per kilo of body weight was something i alluded to in the past to prove that lance doped ... the bioryhthmic nature of performance also suggests cleaner riders (having bad days) ...
last year's 3 grand tour winners were Ryder Hesjedal, Bradley Wiggins and Alberto Contador ... the only guy there i'm not sure was clean was contador ... the first two i am pretty sure rode clean for a plethora of reasons which include the numbers they were putting and the times they were setting plus how they suffered at various points in their races ...
as a longtime cycling fan - i believe it is as exciting as ever ... this year's grand tours are gonna be nothing short of spectacular ... lots of talent at the top and it will truly require not only extreme fitness but team work, guts and lots of luck to win ...
it's the 100th anniversary of the tdf ... it's the one everyone wants to win ... right now the favourites would have to be:
chris froome, alberto contador, joaquim rodriguez ... but there are others that will play a part and have chances to win ... andy shleck, ryder hesjedal, tj van garderen, bradley wiggins, jurgen van der broeck ...
lots of top level talent ... if you're a fan of cycling you should be watching all the grand tours ... if you're a fan of lance - don't bother ...
exactly ... that is the sentiment pretty much everyone here shares except music ... we understand the context of his doping ... our disdain for him is who he is as a human being ... he's a bully, a narcissist, a liar and a huge fraud ... his exploitation of cancer should put him the hall of shame alone ... the guy has made more money off livestrong than should be considered reasonable considering his earnings from his athletic side ...
and this recent interview with oprah shows once again what his true colours are ... he is STILL LYING ... how pathetic is that? ... awful ...
this is what is called self-rationalization ... it's like you want to bury your face in fried chicken wings despite having heart problems and cholesterol issues and you make up an excuse as to why you should eat them ...
we understand that lance was a hero to you in many ways ... he was a hero to many ... what we are trying to explain to you is that he is a fraud ... the aspects of lance that made him a hero to you were partly fabricated to build his brand and hid what his true nature was ... there are plenty of people worthy of hero status ... and i can guarantee you they are all flawed in one way or another ... we don't look for perfection in heros ... we should not look for perfection in humans period ... what we should look for is at the very least integrity and truth ... something that if we all aspired to - would make the world a heckuva lot better place ...
you don't need to self-rationalize your faith in him in the past nor continue to support a man that despite all that has happened continues to LIE and serve only his own interests ... it can be argued that he is more of a fraud today than he was prior to the interview ...
the truth would set lance free ... it's time you set yourself free ... it's okay to be wrong in this world ... it doesn't make us bad people ...
not only that i think its pretty clear he lied for so many years because he was in the unique position of doing tremendous good with Livestrong and became this worldwide symbol of cancer survival. I have little doubt that part of his decision to lie for so many years had to do with the idea that if he told the truth he would be letting alot of people down. This is unique in the history of doping in sports so far. Its not like Bonds or Giambi or Canseco were lying because they felt like they'd let millions of cancer survivors down. I think the fact that his story and the connection he had with people, the fact that it caught like wildfire and spread, I think that caught lance by surprise, and he was left with options. He could continue doping, which he accurately says he and everyone else at the time felt was so commonplace it wasnt cheating. Or he could own up to it, and let down millions of people, millions of people by this time had bought those yellow bracelets etc... Makes sense to me the psychology of why he'd lie for so many years. Thats not to excuse what he did, but for me, that makes sense why he did it.
We all know lying and cheating and bullying is bad. But its never been as black and white as that.
Personally I think the lie just snowballed. I think its even possible he considered coming clean in the beginning, but didnt know how to do so with the weight of what he was becoming in the public's eyes at that point.
For me, the interview just showed what the weight of a lie can have on a person and their family. He truely was torn apart, and his life was ruined by the lies he told.