Don't say that, we skeptics will believe when someone give us enough evidence to believe in the existence of god, it's very unlikely, but we are open to the truth, but we need evidence, and we are not asking for feelings and one person saved out of million from a disaster, fluffy clouds, the smile of a baby, etc... we are talking evidence that follows the rigorous scientific method, hard cold evidence not fallible human feelings.
It would seem that may be impossible, therefore theists/deists push it back asking for proof that there is no god. Well, this has been 'looked into' and it would seem that, when it comes to god's existence (or lack thereof), there is 'evidence of absence'. One can extrapolate from this and say that there is no god (or very strong evidence that god does not exist). Science has also already 'disproved' (not just 'evidence of absence') many 'god claims', through rigorous testing and/or through new medical knowledge (and further testing).
A good compromise, a good piece of legislation, is like a good sentence; or a good piece of music. Everybody can recognize it. They say, 'Huh. It works. It makes sense.'
Barack Obama
It all comes down to faith so why belittle ones beliefs or lack thereof? Talk about a never ending thread.
A good compromise, a good piece of legislation, is like a good sentence; or a good piece of music. Everybody can recognize it. They say, 'Huh. It works. It makes sense.'
Barack Obama
It all comes down to faith so why belittle ones beliefs or lack thereof? Talk about a never ending thread.
because some people like to have discussion and find out what makes others tick. but somewhere down the line (usually page 2), people get emotionally invested and end up feeling belittled, as you put it, and can't let it go. Myself included. I just can't fathom why someone who proclaims she pretty much is the physical representation of love continues to tell people who are non-believers that:
a) it's fine if they don't believe, but they are better if they do, just because she feels she is
b) they are "attacking" believers simply when they ask questions because something a believer said seems to contradict a previous notion. i.e: "I'm not a Christian, yet I have a picture of Noah and his boat on my wall"
God is not love exclusively. God is what anyone makes him. Whoever believes in God, that person's perception of God is thrust upon the world and that's what God becomes.
God is love to Pandora.
God is love to those who spreads the message of peace and love and hope in his name.
God is NOT love to someone who kills in his name.
God is NOT love to someone who judges in his name.
God is NOT love to someone who goes to war in his name.
To me, you don't need god to spread the message of peace and love and hope. Nor do you need god to spread hate.
I think a big issue with this thread, and especially between Pandora and redrock/cate/myself, is that we can't necessarily understand her position. Most people equate god with religion. From what I've gathered over the course of these several pages, I think Pandora, correct me if I'm wrong, is spiritual and not necessarily religious. It seems that the way you speak of god is not in the sense of a divine being, but as in a divine entity of some sort, if that makes sense. As in, maybe God isn't love, but love is god? I think those words are interchangeble to her. Which is why she can't fathom god having a negative influence, as love is all-positive.
And if that's the case, then I think we can all agree.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I hear you PD, though I can perfectly understand that one can believe in a god without following an organised worship. Though a bit strange completely rejecting 'religion' since all gods are an integral part of this worship/religion and without their 'good books', which is where god is referenced, he wouldn't be 'known'. It's just taking what you like but leaving the rest. A bit like me with sliced bread... I don't like the crusts so I eat the middle and leave the rest!
What does bother me though, as you made reference in point a) are these kind of comments (one amongst a number):
"No you don't have God's love. That helps you to love others whether you know them or not
even the millions and millions, even all of humanity. It helps you to not judge and
to keep your heart open to receive love too."
which, as you say suggests that one is 'lesser', closed or cannot 'love' because one does not do this by proxy, via a deity.
Theists also seem to forget/ignore that atheist do not 'reject' the spiritual/immaterial world but would generally see it in a more naturalist way.
Atheists may forget/ignore that theists may need the 'support' of this deity to get through life as one projects their 'human traits' to their deity. Though Deists don't do that as for them god is 'only' the creator of the universe and doesn't 'interfere' with human affairs. So one can assume that one believes in the type of god they want according to their needs.
As you say, a discussion - and, amongst all the rubbish, there have been some very valid & interesting exchanges on this thread.
It all comes down to faith so why belittle ones beliefs or lack thereof? Talk about a never ending thread.
because some people like to have discussion and find out what makes others tick. but somewhere down the line (usually page 2), people get emotionally invested and end up feeling belittled, as you put it, and can't let it go. Myself included. I just can't fathom why someone who proclaims she pretty much is the physical representation of love continues to tell people who are non-believers that:
a) it's fine if they don't believe, but they are better if they do, just because she feels she is
b) they are "attacking" believers simply when they ask questions because something a believer said seems to contradict a previous notion. i.e: "I'm not a Christian, yet I have a picture of Noah and his boat on my wall"
God is not love exclusively. God is what anyone makes him. Whoever believes in God, that person's perception of God is thrust upon the world and that's what God becomes.
God is love to Pandora.
God is love to those who spreads the message of peace and love and hope in his name.
God is NOT love to someone who kills in his name.
God is NOT love to someone who judges in his name.
God is NOT love to someone who goes to war in his name.
To me, you don't need god to spread the message of peace and love and hope. Nor do you need god to spread hate.
I think a big issue with this thread, and especially between Pandora and redrock/cate/myself, is that we can't necessarily understand her position. Most people equate god with religion. From what I've gathered over the course of these several pages, I think Pandora, correct me if I'm wrong, is spiritual and not necessarily religious. It seems that the way you speak of god is not in the sense of a divine being, but as in a divine entity of some sort, if that makes sense. As in, maybe God isn't love, but love is god? I think those words are interchangeble to her. Which is why she can't fathom god having a negative influence, as love is all-positive.
And if that's the case, then I think we can all agree.
I have said these words before....
Noahs ark pic I explained what I take from the picture... cherish God's world
thats what I would probable take from the story though I haven't read it...
loved the movie though
I don't proclaim I am anything I am just working on being a good person like hopefully everyone is...working towards unconditional love...a work in progress.
I don't care if another believes or not what I care about is the countless fans who do believe but don't want to get ripped up for their beliefs so they stay silent here. Thats wrong...
that is not love.
Do I feel that because I believe my life has been improved?...
you bet !
but I have also said countless times that ...
that may not be the case for others..that it is a need fulfilled.
God is love and people have choices to go to war, to hate, to judge that is NOT God, if this is what you are saying I agree.
I'm sorry I don't think redrock nor cate are trying to understand me nor would they like to know how I tick not in the least.
Now perhaps you are and maybe you get me.
I have pretty much laid it all out from the start here.
I guess I don't fit a mold, go figure.
Guess I'm hard to attack cause I don't practice a religion that someone can fault.
Doesn't stop personal attacks though and a ripe collection of rolling eyes which just make those people look very small minded with a closed heart for those who do not share their same belief. I often wonder are they the ones who snicker at others in public? I mean would you roll your eyes at some one in a bar when having a conversation? Truly rude and thoughtless.
What appears to happen is some people it seems have a bit of a chip on their shoulder ...
a need to defend and perceive that believers feel they are better than they are.
This is their insecurity. Believers do NOT feel that way.
I liken our core beliefs to loving PJ music...we know how awesome it is we like to share it
but not everyone is going to appreciate it.
As a fan we can think their loss but to each their own.
This where this thread should be...not needing to defend.... to each their own.
So if I post
God is love an atheist need not challenge that because to each their own.
My statement was not for them...it was for the believers.
Of course they see Love differently no need to make it a big debate.
We all need to accept each other with kindness....
allow those of religion to speak without needing to defend their beliefs.
And the same for the nonbelievers...but that doesn't mean their words are to attack a persons religion
be a put down
they can talk science and the evidence of no God NOT attack God.
I hear you PD, though I can perfectly understand that one can believe in a god without following an organised worship. Though a bit strange completely rejecting 'religion' since all gods are an integral part of this worship/religion and without their 'good books', which is where god is referenced, he wouldn't be 'known'. It's just taking what you like but leaving the rest. A bit like me with sliced bread... I don't like the crusts so I eat the middle and leave the rest!
What does bother me though, as you made reference in point a) are these kind of comments (one amongst a number):
"No you don't have God's love. That helps you to love others whether you know them or not
even the millions and millions, even all of humanity. It helps you to not judge and
to keep your heart open to receive love too."
which, as you say suggests that one is 'lesser', closed or cannot 'love' because one does not do this by proxy, via a deity.
Theists also seem to forget/ignore that atheist do not 'reject' the spiritual/immaterial world but would generally see it in a more naturalist way.
Atheists may forget/ignore that theists may need the 'support' of this deity to get through life as one projects their 'human traits' to their deity. Though Deists don't do that as for them god is 'only' the creator of the universe and doesn't 'interfere' with human affairs. So one can assume that one believes in the type of god they want according to their needs.
As you say, a discussion - and, amongst all the rubbish, there have been some very valid & interesting exchanges on this thread.
I directed these words to you
So now you say it is an insult to call you an atheist? ...to say you do not have Gods love...you don't want it!
Kind of contradictory and confusing to me. I was agreeing with you ....you do not have God's love
because you do not want it.
because you said you do not want or need God's love...has that changed somehow?
Or do you bring this up to try to show me as putting you down
because....
God does help me do all those things..not judge give and receive Love...
no where do I say you are less ....it is what I say God does for me
and I assume others who believe too.
God makes himself known to people ... not only through religion.
I am really not so strange there are many who believe in God but do not follow a religion.
I do not dismiss people who do, I very much admire and respect them and all religions,
just haven't found one that fits my beliefs yet.
God gives me what I need...I don't need to go to church to have Him with me.
The little sandwiches you speak of..the crustless ones are quite popular
me I like the crust .... the crunchier the better with red wine of course
Again, atheists do understand that religion is man made and anyone can claim anything is their 'god' and worship or not worship but believe it has some 'powers'.
If atheists are accepting believers and their religions as their own thing,
Then why the put down?
..if atheists believe we are cool believing
why all the slam talk towards the Bible, rituals, God being a dirtball
etc etc? Wouldn't you think they would be respectful of the beliefs
and not antagonize?
If atheists are cool with it why challenge one's beliefs at all?
I mean read through the threads
I didn't want to upset you by saying God loves you too...you don't want His love
and I meant love between humans.
No you don't have God's love. That helps you to love others whether you know them or not
even the millions and millions, even all of humanity. It helps you to not judge and
to keep your heart open to receive love too.
We are not alike ...I do not insult you
you think me preaching because you don't agree with my beliefs
If I were an atheist
you wouldn't call my words preaching or patronizing cause they would be your words too
I was an atheist as a young woman, probably why I get it.
i do not accept it. i tolerate it. and i am not cool with the believing. this is not because i disrespect those who do but because to me it make no sense. no matter how i think or how i try to put myself in a believers mind and place, nothing presented to me can change my view that God does not exist. it simply makes zero sense to me.. and this came to me when i was a child. it is a position i have never faltered from and one ive never had doubt about. and for me that says a whole lot. i do not believe love comes from God and with all the reading ive done, i will never belive that love comes solely from God... if i even believed he existed.. which i dont. i cringe when a beleive upon being made aware of my atheism tells me.. well jesus/God loves you anyway. and i know this not to be true. i am looked down upon with scorn and pity because i do not subscribe to the insanity that there is a supernatural being that is responsible for my existence and my supposed saving. but lt me tell you my capacity for love and compassion is immeasureable. and it is not because of some God.. it is because i am human.
not here.... unless you choose to see it like that
kindness and respect,
this we can give to those who do not believe as we do
Pandora - I said let it be but, since you bring it up, as much as you would like to 'rectify' your comments by twisting things around (throughout the thread.. I didn't mean this, I meant that.. you are misreading, you 'choose' to read it that way, etc.) when you said
"No you don't have God's love. That helps you to love others whether you know them or not
even the millions and millions, even all of humanity. It helps you to not judge and
to keep your heart open to receive love too."
This comment directed at me clearly implies that as I do not have god's love, I am not in a position to 'love' others (this after I said that I didn't know you and therefore did not love you, etc... ) and that I am not really in a position not to judge and 'allow' love as well as I 'should'. So, rephrasing the above, what is really said is: "No, you don't have god's love. If you did, you would LOVE others whether you know them or not even the millions and millions. You would not judge and your heart would be open to receive LOVE too. This obviously in comparison to a person who does have god's love... you, for example as you LOVE everyone and everything. Basically, no god love - seriously lacking in the love department (and others). Interpretation is not base solely on this one comment but a number of them.
Once again, Pandora - let it be. I'm done with this. You live and LOVE through 'god' - good for you. Others don't and have EXACTLY the same 'opportunities' as you. End.
"I am really not so strange there are many who believe in God but do not follow a religion." As you say, there is nothing strange or unique about this.
Why let an imaginary external agent be the source of my happiness? If I'm happy is thanks to "him" and if I'm sad is because I'm screw up or because "he" is teaching me something... WTF? we are capable a whole rage of emotions, from the awesome ones to the crappy ones, those are just parts of the human experience, there's not greater purpose just the one we set for our selves...
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it"
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Pandora - I said let it be but, since you bring it up, as much as you would like to 'rectify' your comments by twisting things around (throughout the thread.. I didn't mean this, I meant that.. you are misreading, you 'choose' to read it that way, etc.) when you said
"No you don't have God's love. That helps you to love others whether you know them or not
even the millions and millions, even all of humanity. It helps you to not judge and
to keep your heart open to receive love too."
This comment directed at me clearly implies that as I do not have god's love, I am not in a position to 'love' others (this after I said that I didn't know you and therefore did not love you, etc... ) and that I am not really in a position not to judge and 'allow' love as well as I 'should'. So, rephrasing the above, what is really said is: "No, you don't have god's love. If you did, you would LOVE others whether you know them or not even the millions and millions. You would not judge and your heart would be open to receive LOVE too. This obviously in comparison to a person who does have god's love... you, for example as you LOVE everyone and everything. Basically, no god love - seriously lacking in the love department (and others). Interpretation is not base solely on this one comment but a number of them.
Once again, Pandora - let it be. I'm done with this. You live and LOVE through 'god' - good for you. Others don't and have EXACTLY the same 'opportunities' as you. End.
"I am really not so strange there are many who believe in God but do not follow a religion." As you say, there is nothing strange or unique about this.
actually if you look back in your response you said you found it strange one would believe in a deity without a religion.
That is why I mentioned that at all.
I think perhaps you missed or ignored my response on this subject...I said....
"because you said you do not want or need God's love...has that changed somehow?
Or do you bring this up to try to show me as putting you down
because....
God does help me do all those things..not judge give and receive Love...
no where do I say you are less ....it is what I say God does for me
and I assume others who believe too."
DOES FOR ME... please stop twisting and misinterpreting my words
and only taking them in a negative way....
taking it as me saying I have something you don't ....not saying anything about you except you do not want God's love which is the truth. Didn't say you don't have love to give
and the same opportunities because I DO NOT FEEL that way
I was replying to your statement here....
"Love is a deep, strong and personal attachment, not a watered down sentiment to dish out to anyone and everyone. I might say I have a liking for humanity but that is not a sentiment as strong as LOVE.
You may say you love everyone, even the likes of Hitler or any other monster you can think of because that's what god's love is. But I don't. I would not actively pursue to harm anyone like that, but I would not waste any sentiment either."
God's Love is never watered down ...it is for us to share...it is us learning
and working toward unconditional love
we have established that we do love differently, we both have love to share of course,
and have the same opportunities.
that being
...
I'm sorry I don't think redrock nor cate are trying to understand me nor would they like to know how I tick not in the least....
do not presume to know me. i ask questions of you that you dont answer pandora.. that is why i have difficulty understanding you. i will never understand you if you speak in circles about God no religion and how love is God or God is love or whatever it is youre trying to say. you say God is love but you dont much read the bible.. but tbhis is where his word is supposedly written. so where do you get your faith from if not from the word of God? you say you havent read the story of noah but if you had, youd probably take from it to cherish Gods world. might i suggest you do read it.. cause cherishing Gods world isnt what i got from it i can tell you that.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
...
I'm sorry I don't think redrock nor cate are trying to understand me nor would they like to know how I tick not in the least....
do not presume to know me. i ask questions of you that you dont answer pandora.. that is why i have difficulty understanding you. i will never understand you if you speak in circles about God no religion and how love is God or God is love or whatever it is youre trying to say. you say God is love but you dont much read the bible.. but tbhis is where his word is supposedly written. so where do you get your faith from if not from the word of God? you say you havent read the story of noah but if you had, youd probably take from it to cherish Gods world. might i suggest you do read it.. cause cherishing Gods world isnt what i got from it i can tell you that.
I think I'm pretty easy to understand if someone wants to...I've never been told I'm difficult to understand...well
maybe man woman sort of thing. I've confused JB a number of times
You say religion is the word of God. The people who are religious feel this. I'm not religious ...
I don't feel this.
Think of me as an atheist who believes in God. redrock says I'm not unusual nor unique that there are others who do not want nor need religion but believe in a supreme being.
That is a bit rude to say I speak in circles..it is how you are perceiving me. I've been very clear.
As far as Noah's Ark I think I will keep my version because perhaps it is what God wants for me.
He wants me to cherish his world. I found that pic 18 years ago...
I've had oodles of family evenings and holidays and it has sentimental family memories intertwined with the whimsical thought of 2 by 2 animals.
It seems to me many atheists do not believe in God because of religion...
both you and redrock are highly versed in the Bible and religion.
But again I will say I admire the religions of the world. We need churches and the positive thinking they bring.
We need a gathering place for people to share God's love and spread it.
That is a bit rude to say I speak in circles..it is how you are perceiving me. I've been very clear.
honestly Pandora, I wouldn't necessarily say you've been speaking in circles, but you do sound very vague most of the time. kind of like talking to a philosopher. it has been very difficult to discern your actual stance on many points beyond the fact that you believe in God and don't subscribe to any particular religion.
It seems to me many atheists do not believe in God because of religion...
both you and redrock are highly versed in the Bible and religion.
whoa. no way. I had no issues with religion or the churck back when I chose to reject the idea of a supreme creator. most people, when they come to realize their disbelief or personal questioning of their faith, are not aware enough of the atrocities the church has committed. we find that out later.
I personally completely seperate the belief in god and religion. For me, the idea of a loving god and father is fabulous. I think most religions don't have a fucking clue what god is, if he exists. Humans, as a completely moronic species, wouldn't be able to comprehend what god is.
religion can be beautiful, but it can be argued it is responsible for all the ills of the world. especially now.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
It seems to me many atheists do not believe in God because of religion...
both you and redrock are highly versed in the Bible and religion.
whoa. no way. I had no issues with religion or the churck back when I chose to reject the idea of a supreme creator....... I personally completely seperate the belief in god and religion..... .
I agree that these two are two different things albeit linked in a way - the 'good books', which are the 'reference' for god(s) (just like King Arthur was made known by Geoffrey of Monmouth's writings) are also a basis for organised worship. But anyone can project whatever 'qualities' they wish for their god depending on the need/void that needs to be filled at the time, anything/any entity can be a god, disregarding the writings. I guess this entity is named 'God' because that's how one understands it needs to be referenced as (a throwback from the good books??? ) but really, 'god' can be any deified immaterial entity, person or even object - it's just what one makes of it.
Generally, atheists don't confuse religion and god and have no problem 'believing' in religion, whether one accepts it or not - one is concrete, man made another is supposedly transcendent. Religion is 'nothing', just the organised worship and rules/regulations of man. Then again, any set of beliefs can be called 'religion', so maybe believing in a force that can produce miracles and at the same time believing in an afterlife is, theoretically, a religion! Theists believe in a god/gods (usually one who interacts with humans via 'miracles', etc.) but not necessarily a creator god; deists believe in a god which doesn't interact with humans but is 'the' creator; this atheist believes love and other 'god like' projections come from within - nothing 'godly', just from within, not via a god (or by proxy of a god). Maybe I can then say I am god, though that would be quite presumptuous.
....but you dont much read the bible.. but tbhis is where his word is supposedly written. so where do you get your faith from if not from the word of God? ...
You say religion is the word of God. The people who are religious feel this. I'm not religious ...
I don't feel this.
CF said the bible /the 'good book', represents the word of god, not religion (and by religion I mean organised worship/religion as this is what most will understand by religion). A big difference.
I'm with you here CF, as I said before the bible (for christian type beliefs - other 'good books' for other types of beliefs) is where god is referenced, where his 'attributes' are mentioned and praised, where he is made known, where he 'speaks' to humans. If the 'good books' hadn't been put together, would we 'know' how god is (ie all benevolent, etc.), would we know of so called 'miracles' and would we be able to 'transpose' them to meet our needs? Would we then be able to 'visualise' god as we do? I'm thinking not.
....but you dont much read the bible.. but tbhis is where his word is supposedly written. so where do you get your faith from if not from the word of God? ...
You say religion is the word of God. The people who are religious feel this. I'm not religious ...
I don't feel this.
CF said the bible /the 'good book', represents the word of god, not religion (and by religion I mean organised worship/religion as this is what most will understand by religion). A big difference.
I'm with you here CF, as I said before the bible (for christian type beliefs - other 'good books' for other types of beliefs) is where god is referenced, where his 'attributes' are mentioned and praised, where he is made known, where he 'speaks' to humans. If the 'good books' hadn't been put together, would we 'know' how god is (ie all benevolent, etc.), would we know of so called 'miracles' and would we be able to 'transpose' them to meet our needs? Would we then be able to 'visualise' god as we do? I'm thinking not.
Would I and do I know God without the good books? ...yes
if there were no churches or religion would I still know God?....yes
would I know miracles? ...yes
this is my faith, it comes from my experiences on my path in life.
God shows himself and speaks to me daily.
He is there .....one just needs to let Him into their life and heart.
Can I prove he is there... No
Can you prove he is not...I don't think so
you can only say He is not with you and therefore you think He does not exist.
This is illogical though...
because someone has not learned something yet does not mean it is does not exist.
That is a bit rude to say I speak in circles..it is how you are perceiving me. I've been very clear.
honestly Pandora, I wouldn't necessarily say you've been speaking in circles, but you do sound very vague most of the time. kind of like talking to a philosopher. it has been very difficult to discern your actual stance on many points beyond the fact that you believe in God and don't subscribe to any particular religion.
It seems to me many atheists do not believe in God because of religion...
both you and redrock are highly versed in the Bible and religion.
whoa. no way. I had no issues with religion or the churck back when I chose to reject the idea of a supreme creator. most people, when they come to realize their disbelief or personal questioning of their faith, are not aware enough of the atrocities the church has committed. we find that out later.
I personally completely seperate the belief in god and religion. For me, the idea of a loving god and father is fabulous. I think most religions don't have a fucking clue what god is, if he exists. Humans, as a completely moronic species, wouldn't be able to comprehend what god is.
religion can be beautiful, but it can be argued it is responsible for all the ills of the world. especially now.
I did say many atheists not all.
Perhaps one day you will allow God back into your life...perhaps you will have a want or a need.
I separate God from religion and I do not say religions are bad because of some bad apples within
that would be kind of like saying a sports team is bad cause their fans riot ... but I try to refrain from most analogies cause it's really hard to find a decent one and that really wasn't
I do like my PJ reference though....
Faith of any kind is kind of like loving PJ music... we know its great and want to share it with the world
but not everyone will appreciate it... we think their loss but to each their own.
My own is God.... that is all.
oh and of course PJ
The thing is, people think religion is spirituality. When in fact, religion is a method to discover spirituality. Spirituality is the discovery that we are all are an integral part in the fabric of humanity. Learning this, in turn, endows us with the awareness of our responsibility to each other in this Life.
Once a person learns how to be on a spiritual path, they can choose to blend religion with it, by remaining closely tied to their religion, deviate completely from it, or make a variation involving the two. Each person has his/her own path they must decide to follow. The responsibility of it all is to respect every path of humanity.
That being said, I am fully aware of the fundamentalists in every religion. I feel that instead of blending spirituality with religion, they have chosen that the religion is the only path. By basing every action on the literal interpretation of the religion, they are ignoring their personal spiritual responsibility, which is a harmful action to humanity as a whole. If we look closely at recent years, we have seen this circumvention of spiritual responsibility in not only religion, but politics and finance also. Which has brought sadness and destruction in ways we could not imagine. It is heartbreaking. I will stop here, as those are matters for another thread altogether.
I apologize profusely for taking this thread off topic. :oops:
. By basing every action on the literal interpretation of the religion, they are ignoring their personal spiritual responsibility, which is a harmful action to humanity as a whole.
This is one of the best and most meaningful statements I have read in this thread.
. By basing every action on the literal interpretation of the religion, they are ignoring their personal spiritual responsibility, which is a harmful action to humanity as a whole.
This is one of the best and most meaningful statements I have read in this thread.
You're welcome. I think that 'literal interpretation' are very powerful words in this context, and it is a thing that, to me, creates some major problems.
You're welcome. I think that 'literal interpretation' are very powerful words in this context, and it is a thing that, to me, creates some major problems.
I agree. See, you gotta give yourself more credit!
Comments
It would seem that may be impossible, therefore theists/deists push it back asking for proof that there is no god. Well, this has been 'looked into' and it would seem that, when it comes to god's existence (or lack thereof), there is 'evidence of absence'. One can extrapolate from this and say that there is no god (or very strong evidence that god does not exist). Science has also already 'disproved' (not just 'evidence of absence') many 'god claims', through rigorous testing and/or through new medical knowledge (and further testing).
Though I do like fluffy clouds...
Barack Obama
Barack Obama
because some people like to have discussion and find out what makes others tick. but somewhere down the line (usually page 2), people get emotionally invested and end up feeling belittled, as you put it, and can't let it go. Myself included. I just can't fathom why someone who proclaims she pretty much is the physical representation of love continues to tell people who are non-believers that:
a) it's fine if they don't believe, but they are better if they do, just because she feels she is
b) they are "attacking" believers simply when they ask questions because something a believer said seems to contradict a previous notion. i.e: "I'm not a Christian, yet I have a picture of Noah and his boat on my wall"
God is not love exclusively. God is what anyone makes him. Whoever believes in God, that person's perception of God is thrust upon the world and that's what God becomes.
God is love to Pandora.
God is love to those who spreads the message of peace and love and hope in his name.
God is NOT love to someone who kills in his name.
God is NOT love to someone who judges in his name.
God is NOT love to someone who goes to war in his name.
To me, you don't need god to spread the message of peace and love and hope. Nor do you need god to spread hate.
I think a big issue with this thread, and especially between Pandora and redrock/cate/myself, is that we can't necessarily understand her position. Most people equate god with religion. From what I've gathered over the course of these several pages, I think Pandora, correct me if I'm wrong, is spiritual and not necessarily religious. It seems that the way you speak of god is not in the sense of a divine being, but as in a divine entity of some sort, if that makes sense. As in, maybe God isn't love, but love is god? I think those words are interchangeble to her. Which is why she can't fathom god having a negative influence, as love is all-positive.
And if that's the case, then I think we can all agree.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
What does bother me though, as you made reference in point a) are these kind of comments (one amongst a number):
"No you don't have God's love. That helps you to love others whether you know them or not
even the millions and millions, even all of humanity. It helps you to not judge and
to keep your heart open to receive love too."
which, as you say suggests that one is 'lesser', closed or cannot 'love' because one does not do this by proxy, via a deity.
Theists also seem to forget/ignore that atheist do not 'reject' the spiritual/immaterial world but would generally see it in a more naturalist way.
Atheists may forget/ignore that theists may need the 'support' of this deity to get through life as one projects their 'human traits' to their deity. Though Deists don't do that as for them god is 'only' the creator of the universe and doesn't 'interfere' with human affairs. So one can assume that one believes in the type of god they want according to their needs.
As you say, a discussion - and, amongst all the rubbish, there have been some very valid & interesting exchanges on this thread.
Noahs ark pic I explained what I take from the picture... cherish God's world
thats what I would probable take from the story though I haven't read it...
loved the movie though
I don't proclaim I am anything I am just working on being a good person like hopefully everyone is...working towards unconditional love...a work in progress.
I don't care if another believes or not what I care about is the countless fans who do believe but don't want to get ripped up for their beliefs so they stay silent here. Thats wrong...
that is not love.
Do I feel that because I believe my life has been improved?...
you bet !
but I have also said countless times that ...
that may not be the case for others..that it is a need fulfilled.
God is love and people have choices to go to war, to hate, to judge that is NOT God, if this is what you are saying I agree.
I'm sorry I don't think redrock nor cate are trying to understand me nor would they like to know how I tick
Now perhaps you are and maybe you get me.
I have pretty much laid it all out from the start here.
I guess I don't fit a mold, go figure.
Guess I'm hard to attack cause I don't practice a religion that someone can fault.
Doesn't stop personal attacks though and a ripe collection of rolling eyes which just make those people look very small minded with a closed heart for those who do not share their same belief. I often wonder are they the ones who snicker at others in public? I mean would you roll your eyes at some one in a bar when having a conversation? Truly rude and thoughtless.
What appears to happen is some people it seems have a bit of a chip on their shoulder ...
a need to defend and perceive that believers feel they are better than they are.
This is their insecurity. Believers do NOT feel that way.
I liken our core beliefs to loving PJ music...we know how awesome it is we like to share it
but not everyone is going to appreciate it.
As a fan we can think their loss but to each their own.
This where this thread should be...not needing to defend.... to each their own.
So if I post
God is love an atheist need not challenge that because to each their own.
My statement was not for them...it was for the believers.
Of course they see Love differently no need to make it a big debate.
We all need to accept each other with kindness....
allow those of religion to speak without needing to defend their beliefs.
And the same for the nonbelievers...but that doesn't mean their words are to attack a persons religion
be a put down
they can talk science and the evidence of no God NOT attack God.
I directed these words to you
So now you say it is an insult to call you an atheist? ...to say you do not have Gods love...you don't want it!
Kind of contradictory and confusing to me. I was agreeing with you ....you do not have God's love
because you do not want it.
because you said you do not want or need God's love...has that changed somehow?
Or do you bring this up to try to show me as putting you down
because....
God does help me do all those things..not judge give and receive Love...
no where do I say you are less ....it is what I say God does for me
and I assume others who believe too.
God makes himself known to people ... not only through religion.
I am really not so strange there are many who believe in God but do not follow a religion.
I do not dismiss people who do, I very much admire and respect them and all religions,
just haven't found one that fits my beliefs yet.
God gives me what I need...I don't need to go to church to have Him with me.
The little sandwiches you speak of..the crustless ones are quite popular
me I like the crust .... the crunchier the better with red wine of course
not here.... unless you choose to see it like that
kindness and respect,
this we can give to those who do not believe as we do
This was I think what the OP had intended and what I have enjoyed...
hearing peoples stories of their beliefs in God or no God
I have enjoyed getting to know each other and learning more about the religions of the world.
"No you don't have God's love. That helps you to love others whether you know them or not
even the millions and millions, even all of humanity. It helps you to not judge and
to keep your heart open to receive love too."
This comment directed at me clearly implies that as I do not have god's love, I am not in a position to 'love' others (this after I said that I didn't know you and therefore did not love you, etc... ) and that I am not really in a position not to judge and 'allow' love as well as I 'should'. So, rephrasing the above, what is really said is: "No, you don't have god's love. If you did, you would LOVE others whether you know them or not even the millions and millions. You would not judge and your heart would be open to receive LOVE too. This obviously in comparison to a person who does have god's love... you, for example as you LOVE everyone and everything. Basically, no god love - seriously lacking in the love department (and others). Interpretation is not base solely on this one comment but a number of them.
Once again, Pandora - let it be. I'm done with this. You live and LOVE through 'god' - good for you. Others don't and have EXACTLY the same 'opportunities' as you. End.
"I am really not so strange there are many who believe in God but do not follow a religion." As you say, there is nothing strange or unique about this.
Hear, hear.
Hear, hear, hear, hear!
Why let an imaginary external agent be the source of my happiness? If I'm happy is thanks to "him" and if I'm sad is because I'm screw up or because "he" is teaching me something... WTF? we are capable a whole rage of emotions, from the awesome ones to the crappy ones, those are just parts of the human experience, there's not greater purpose just the one we set for our selves...
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
That is why I mentioned that at all.
I think perhaps you missed or ignored my response on this subject...I said....
"because you said you do not want or need God's love...has that changed somehow?
Or do you bring this up to try to show me as putting you down
because....
God does help me do all those things..not judge give and receive Love...
no where do I say you are less ....it is what I say God does for me
and I assume others who believe too."
DOES FOR ME... please stop twisting and misinterpreting my words
and only taking them in a negative way....
taking it as me saying I have something you don't ....not saying anything about you except you do not want God's love which is the truth. Didn't say you don't have love to give
and the same opportunities because I DO NOT FEEL that way
I was replying to your statement here....
"Love is a deep, strong and personal attachment, not a watered down sentiment to dish out to anyone and everyone. I might say I have a liking for humanity but that is not a sentiment as strong as LOVE.
You may say you love everyone, even the likes of Hitler or any other monster you can think of because that's what god's love is. But I don't. I would not actively pursue to harm anyone like that, but I would not waste any sentiment either."
God's Love is never watered down ...it is for us to share...it is us learning
and working toward unconditional love
we have established that we do love differently, we both have love to share of course,
and have the same opportunities.
that being
to learn unconditional love.
"Speak words of kindness ....
hear kindness echo...."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I like this, but I don't agree that love has to be related to belief in God.
No Religion Just Love
just love any way you can get it and give it
but for me ...
God's love lives in my heart and gets me through the day in a positive way
do not presume to know me. i ask questions of you that you dont answer pandora.. that is why i have difficulty understanding you. i will never understand you if you speak in circles about God no religion and how love is God or God is love or whatever it is youre trying to say. you say God is love but you dont much read the bible.. but tbhis is where his word is supposedly written. so where do you get your faith from if not from the word of God? you say you havent read the story of noah but if you had, youd probably take from it to cherish Gods world. might i suggest you do read it.. cause cherishing Gods world isnt what i got from it i can tell you that.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
maybe man woman sort of thing. I've confused JB a number of times
You say religion is the word of God. The people who are religious feel this. I'm not religious ...
I don't feel this.
Think of me as an atheist who believes in God. redrock says I'm not unusual nor unique that there are others who do not want nor need religion but believe in a supreme being.
That is a bit rude to say I speak in circles..it is how you are perceiving me. I've been very clear.
As far as Noah's Ark I think I will keep my version because perhaps it is what God wants for me.
He wants me to cherish his world. I found that pic 18 years ago...
I've had oodles of family evenings and holidays and it has sentimental family memories intertwined with the whimsical thought of 2 by 2 animals.
It seems to me many atheists do not believe in God because of religion...
both you and redrock are highly versed in the Bible and religion.
But again I will say I admire the religions of the world. We need churches and the positive thinking they bring.
We need a gathering place for people to share God's love and spread it.
Its all good
honestly Pandora, I wouldn't necessarily say you've been speaking in circles, but you do sound very vague most of the time. kind of like talking to a philosopher. it has been very difficult to discern your actual stance on many points beyond the fact that you believe in God and don't subscribe to any particular religion.
whoa. no way. I had no issues with religion or the churck back when I chose to reject the idea of a supreme creator. most people, when they come to realize their disbelief or personal questioning of their faith, are not aware enough of the atrocities the church has committed. we find that out later.
I personally completely seperate the belief in god and religion. For me, the idea of a loving god and father is fabulous. I think most religions don't have a fucking clue what god is, if he exists. Humans, as a completely moronic species, wouldn't be able to comprehend what god is.
religion can be beautiful, but it can be argued it is responsible for all the ills of the world. especially now.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I agree that these two are two different things albeit linked in a way - the 'good books', which are the 'reference' for god(s) (just like King Arthur was made known by Geoffrey of Monmouth's writings) are also a basis for organised worship. But anyone can project whatever 'qualities' they wish for their god depending on the need/void that needs to be filled at the time, anything/any entity can be a god, disregarding the writings. I guess this entity is named 'God' because that's how one understands it needs to be referenced as (a throwback from the good books???
Generally, atheists don't confuse religion and god and have no problem 'believing' in religion, whether one accepts it or not - one is concrete, man made another is supposedly transcendent. Religion is 'nothing', just the organised worship and rules/regulations of man. Then again, any set of beliefs can be called 'religion', so maybe believing in a force that can produce miracles and at the same time believing in an afterlife is, theoretically, a religion! Theists believe in a god/gods (usually one who interacts with humans via 'miracles', etc.) but not necessarily a creator god; deists believe in a god which doesn't interact with humans but is 'the' creator; this atheist believes love and other 'god like' projections come from within - nothing 'godly', just from within, not via a god (or by proxy of a god). Maybe I can then say I am god, though that would be quite presumptuous.
I'm with you here CF, as I said before the bible (for christian type beliefs - other 'good books' for other types of beliefs) is where god is referenced, where his 'attributes' are mentioned and praised, where he is made known, where he 'speaks' to humans. If the 'good books' hadn't been put together, would we 'know' how god is (ie all benevolent, etc.), would we know of so called 'miracles' and would we be able to 'transpose' them to meet our needs? Would we then be able to 'visualise' god as we do? I'm thinking not.
Would I and do I know God without the good books? ...yes
if there were no churches or religion would I still know God?....yes
would I know miracles? ...yes
this is my faith, it comes from my experiences on my path in life.
God shows himself and speaks to me daily.
He is there .....one just needs to let Him into their life and heart.
Can I prove he is there... No
Can you prove he is not...I don't think so
you can only say He is not with you and therefore you think He does not exist.
This is illogical though...
because someone has not learned something yet does not mean it is does not exist.
Perhaps one day you will allow God back into your life...perhaps you will have a want or a need.
I separate God from religion and I do not say religions are bad because of some bad apples within
that would be kind of like saying a sports team is bad cause their fans riot ... but I try to refrain from most analogies cause it's really hard to find a decent one and that really wasn't
I do like my PJ reference though....
Faith of any kind is kind of like loving PJ music... we know its great and want to share it with the world
but not everyone will appreciate it... we think their loss but to each their own.
My own is God.... that is all.
oh and of course PJ
Once a person learns how to be on a spiritual path, they can choose to blend religion with it, by remaining closely tied to their religion, deviate completely from it, or make a variation involving the two. Each person has his/her own path they must decide to follow. The responsibility of it all is to respect every path of humanity.
That being said, I am fully aware of the fundamentalists in every religion. I feel that instead of blending spirituality with religion, they have chosen that the religion is the only path. By basing every action on the literal interpretation of the religion, they are ignoring their personal spiritual responsibility, which is a harmful action to humanity as a whole. If we look closely at recent years, we have seen this circumvention of spiritual responsibility in not only religion, but politics and finance also. Which has brought sadness and destruction in ways we could not imagine. It is heartbreaking. I will stop here, as those are matters for another thread altogether.
I apologize profusely for taking this thread off topic. :oops:
Thank you.
I agree. See, you gotta give yourself more credit!