There is no proof, scientific, or otherwise, of how everything came into existence. I love science and know evolution is what formed us. I'm talking about the very very beginning. Perhaps even before the universe formed. Something still heavily debated by scientists.
Until we know how existence, itself, came into being, then absolutely noone can say for fact that there is no God. Who are any of us to tell someone else what they believe is wrong? Or to mock it, as a couple people did my beliefs on this thread?
All it does is lead to tearing each other down.
I agree with everything in this post. At the same time, by the very same token as you say "no one can say for a fact that there is no God", neither can anyone say for a fact that there is a god. And it seems logical to me (though this is not the case in practice) that the burden of proof should lie with those who postulate that there is a God. The reason for this being that, though there may be no proof either way, there is a vast and ever-increasing pool of mutually reinforcing evidence that suggests more and more that God is unnecessary, and next to no objective evidence that he exists. For that reason, I also agree with newy777's post. To me, it makes far more sense to say "We don't know the answer yet, so let's keep looking and learning" than it does to say "We don't know the answer, so let's make one up. Let's just say, 'God did it'."
I also agree with a lot of what Mariamaniatis says, until we get to this:
There is plenty of evidence of God...The organization of the universe suggests intelligent life and a design. And I do find it difficult to believe that life forms as brilliant and intricate as ours can rise from dust. Our bodies are incredibly complex and intricate machines with genetic codes. Codes don't rise from dust.
So I believe that there has to be higher intelligence that possibly did have a hand in creating life.
This is essentially the "argument from design". I know there's a lot of support for this, particularly among conservative American Christians, but it is an argument that was effectively debunked by David Hume over 200 years ago. Even Christian theologists will tell you that it is a wholly inadequate argument for the existence of God, in a large part because it simply begs the question of "who designed the designer?"
It may be an uncomfortable realisation for us to accept when we are so conditioned to think of a great and beneficient mystical creator, but that doesn't make it any less the case. I myself had a hard time accepting it myself when I started realising that my belief God and religion left me with more questions than answers. But the more I think about it, the more I feel that the absence of such a creator doesn't make life, the universe and everything any less wonderful and beautiful and awe-inspiring. It may even make it more so.
The comments about intelligent design are really something i thought was dealt with along time ago. The theory of evolution is the most rock solid theory in science today which is backed up by a compilation of hard facts and laws of nature etc. Understanding this theory dismisses creationism immediately and i find it to be one of the most fascinating things i have looked into at depth.
It´s easy to see artificial selection work over our life times. Man have changed the common wolf into hundreds of different breeds of dog over a number of millenia, we have things like broccoli,cauliflower and brussel sprouts which came from the artificial selection of the common cabbage. Now imagine what can be done from billions of years of evolution. Dating rock from asteriods that have collided with earth confirms the age of the earth of 4.5 billion yrs as these asteriods from the belt between mars and jupiter came to be during the formation of the solar system. The oldest rocks dated on earth were found on the surface of Greenland. 3.7 billion yrs old. So many fields of science agree with eachother.
Science to me is honest as it searches for truth and it is absolutely modest in it´s failures( actually enthralled to find out it had been wrong).There is no hidden agenda with science.
Anyway i will always say i respect people for their belief´s. I just wanted to write my position on science and that more respect for it is needed.
I never said that. Of course science has been wrong, but it learns from its mistakes, and even they help to increase our stock of knowledge about the universe we live in.
I could go on, but I'd just be repeating what newy777 said above.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
There is no proof, scientific, or otherwise, of how everything came into existence. I love science and know evolution is what formed us. I'm talking about the very very beginning. Perhaps even before the universe formed. Something still heavily debated by scientists.
Until we know how existence, itself, came into being, then absolutely noone can say for fact that there is no God. Who are any of us to tell someone else what they believe is wrong? Or to mock it, as a couple people did my beliefs on this thread?
All it does is lead to tearing each other down.
I agree with everything in this post. At the same time, by the very same token as you say "no one can say for a fact that there is no God", neither can anyone say for a fact that there is a god.
Exactly. I meant it to go both ways. I cannot prove there is a God any more than anyone else can prove there isn't. There should be no burden of proof on anyone. We should be allowed to believe whatever helps us move through life. My belief that I will see my loved ones in the afterlife is the only thing keeping me going at this point, as much as I've lost. Who is anyone to try and take that sliver of hope away from me?
Pandora- your post about mother's made me cry, thank you for posting it.
Pandora- your post about mother's made me cry, thank you for posting it.
welcome glad you enjoyed... I know when I cry its when I most enjoy!
wanted to add...
I heard a quote from a survivor of the tornado disaster,
he said...
"They say these are the 'Acts of God'...I've never understood this.
The Acts of God is all this"...
as he points to all the people who have come to his community,
strangers who have come to help, help pull out the survivors buried beneath the rubble,
help with generosity and love and help by sharing the tears and sorrow.
wanted to add...
I heard a quote from a survivor of the tornado disaster,
he said...
"They say these are the 'Acts of God'...I've never understood this.
The Acts of God is all this"...
as he points to all the people who have come to his community,
strangers who have come to help, help pull out the survivors buried beneath the rubble,
help with generosity and love and help by sharing the tears and sorrow.
These... the Acts of God.
Pandora, this reminds me of a story I heard just the other day....a friend of mine said that when he was little, he would see all these terrifying things on the news--natural disasters and such. He said it used to really scare him and make him wonder 'why?'.. His mom told him, 'when you watch the news and see those things, look for the people who are helping--you will see them; concentrate on those who are helping'. From then on, he says that's what he always does...and he always sees them. I thought that was a beautiful story.
wanted to add...
I heard a quote from a survivor of the tornado disaster,
he said...
"They say these are the 'Acts of God'...I've never understood this.
The Acts of God is all this"...
as he points to all the people who have come to his community,
strangers who have come to help, help pull out the survivors buried beneath the rubble,
help with generosity and love and help by sharing the tears and sorrow.
These... the Acts of God.
Pandora, this reminds me of a story I heard just the other day....a friend of mine said that when he was little, he would see all these terrifying things on the news--natural disasters and such. He said it used to really scare him and make him wonder 'why?'.. His mom told him, 'when you watch the news and see those things, look for the people who are helping--you will see them; concentrate on those who are helping'. From then on, he says that's what he always does...and he always sees them. I thought that was a beautiful story.
that is a beautiful story and a very beautiful Mom... what a wonderful gift she gave to her child,
seeing the world through eyes like that.... eyes of hope!
that is a beautiful story and a very beautiful Mom... what a wonderful gift she gave to her child,
seeing the world through eyes like that.... eyes of hope!
yes, I thought so, too. Hopeful, yes. ... it was inspirational. It gave me a new perspective, as it did him when he was young. It was indeed a wonderful gift she gave him.
Pandora, this reminds me of a story I heard just the other day....a friend of mine said that when he was little, he would see all these terrifying things on the news--natural disasters and such. He said it used to really scare him and make him wonder 'why?'.. His mom told him, 'when you watch the news and see those things, look for the people who are helping--you will see them; concentrate on those who are helping'. From then on, he says that's what he always does...and he always sees them. I thought that was a beautiful story.
That reminded me of a book called A Course In Miracles. In the intro it says "Miracles occur naturally as expressions of love. The real miracle is the love that inspires them. In this sense everything that comes from love is a miracle."
Three ants met on the nose of a man who was asleep in the sun. And after they had saluted one another, each according to the custom of his tribe, they stood there conversing.
The first ant said, “These hills and plains are the most barren I have known. I have searched all day for a grain of some sort, and there is none to be found.”
Said the second ant, “I too have found nothing, though I have visited every nook and glade. This is, I believe, what my people call the soft, moving land where nothing grows.”
Then the third ant raised his head and said, “My friends, we are standing now on the nose of the Supreme Ant, the mighty and infinite Ant, whose body is so great that we cannot see it, whose shadow is so vast that we cannot trace it, whose voice is so loud that we cannot hear it; and He is omnipresent.”
When the third ant spoke thus the other ants looked at each other and laughed.
At that moment the man moved and in his sleep raised his hand and scratched his nose, and the three ants were crushed.
Pandora, this reminds me of a story I heard just the other day....a friend of mine said that when he was little, he would see all these terrifying things on the news--natural disasters and such. He said it used to really scare him and make him wonder 'why?'.. His mom told him, 'when you watch the news and see those things, look for the people who are helping--you will see them; concentrate on those who are helping'. From then on, he says that's what he always does...and he always sees them. I thought that was a beautiful story.
That reminded me of a book called A Course In Miracles. In the intro it says "Miracles occur naturally as expressions of love. The real miracle is the love that inspires them. In this sense everything that comes from love is a miracle."
yes, and this you can see every day if you look for it.
That reminded me of a book called A Course In Miracles. In the intro it says "Miracles occur naturally as expressions of love. The real miracle is the love that inspires them. In this sense everything that comes from love is a miracle."
yes, and this you can see every day if you look for it.
1996: Toronto 1998: Barrie 2000: Montreal, Toronto, Auburn Hills 2003: Cleveland, Buffalo, Toronto, Montreal 2004: Boston X2, Grand Rapids 2005: Kitchener, London, Hamilton, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto 2006: Toronto X2 2009: Toronto 2011: PJ20, Montreal, Toronto X2, Hamilton 2012: Manchester X2, Amsterdam X2, Prague, Berlin X2, Philadelphia, Missoula 2013: Pittsburg, Buffalo 2014: Milan, Trieste, Vienna, Berlin, Stockholm, Oslo, Detroit 2016: Ottawa, Toronto X2 2018: Padova, Rome, Prague, Krakow, Berlin, Barcelona
2022: Ottawa, Hamilton, Toronto 2023: Chicago X2 2024: New York X2
i'm a person with a disability. tonight i taught a university class on Inclusion in school. i have aides. mine heard my talk tonight because she drove my there.
here's basically what i said to the class http://youtu.be/PVbq1TImFjc it's 25mins long. lol! but really it says why/how schools should include kids with disabilities.
i realize that religion helps me in the fact that my aides are caring do right people. so they in theory are perfect for being my aide. a certain connection happens when you take care of somebody for so long. that's where i have trouble a lot with aides. they tend to want to take over. i see my aides as assistants, nothing more, maybe a friend. i'm sure she doesn't see herself as that.
out of my inclusion talk she got i don't feel included and felt the need to tell me God loves me. there's a definite heaven and hell. God doesn't come to people you have to go to him. blah blah blah.
i tell my aides no religion talk when they start.
this is going to snowball i just know it and i'm going to have to fire her.
what would you do?
*~Pearl Jam will be blasted from speakers until morale improves~*
ok, what do ya'll think i should do about this?
...
what would you do?
...
Hey...
It's a touchy situation. I think you just need to talk this one out with your aide. You may find that you inspire her... which may (or may not) trigger those emotions associated with religious belief/faith. I think you two just need to sit and discuss, letting each know where you stand. If things work out, they work out. If not, then it may be in both of your best interests to part ways. You're smart... you know what to do.
Anyway... I personally believe you are doing just fine. No one needs to pray for you... you are a beautiful woman and from what you say and write, it sounds like you've got your head screwed on straight. If someone is looking for someone to pray for... there are several million people who will go to sleep in hunger... out in the elements... with death hanging over their heads. Tell them to pray for those people... the ones whom God seems to have forsaken.
Good luck with that.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
i think i will talk with her about it if she brings it up again and share that blog with her.
i'm too scared to bring it up myself because i don't want to cause a riff. it's sad but i don't feel people respect differences in beliefs enough to make me want to bring it up.
*~Pearl Jam will be blasted from speakers until morale improves~*
i think i will talk with her about it if she brings it up again and share that blog with her.
i'm too scared to bring it up myself because i don't want to cause a riff. it's sad but i don't feel people respect differences in beliefs enough to make me want to bring it up.
...
I know what you mean.
I get all sorts of reactions... because I wish people well with their religious beliefs, but let them know that I don't believe them. Sorry, but that's the truth on how I feel. They need not convince me of anything... they can share their beliefs... and I'll listen. But, I won't follow.
Anyway, I like what you say... truthfully, Jesus doesn't need to heal you, you seem just fine to me.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
but see then you're stuck dealing with the whole, "I must spread Gods word" thing. and it potentially won't stop. how do you deal with that?
...
You really can't deal with that. All you can do is let them ramble on and listen... sometimes, it makes them feel good... talking it out. Problems that usually crop up... they talk, but don't listen.
I just say what I truely feel... I am happy they have found what they say they have found... but, i think I'll go in this direction instead. It's my calling... I'm following that different drum beat... over there... not where you've already been. It's not that I don't believe they believe to know the way... it's just that I don't believe them. Works for them... not for me, just like what works for me... I know won't work for them.
I still get the, "I'll say a prayer for you" thing ... which is nice... but, really... I'm okay. Pray for someone who really needs to be sent a prayer. Sometimes, they figure it out... sometimes, they never get the clue.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
And Science has never been wrong?
It´s easy to see artificial selection work over our life times. Man have changed the common wolf into hundreds of different breeds of dog over a number of millenia, we have things like broccoli,cauliflower and brussel sprouts which came from the artificial selection of the common cabbage. Now imagine what can be done from billions of years of evolution. Dating rock from asteriods that have collided with earth confirms the age of the earth of 4.5 billion yrs as these asteriods from the belt between mars and jupiter came to be during the formation of the solar system. The oldest rocks dated on earth were found on the surface of Greenland. 3.7 billion yrs old. So many fields of science agree with eachother.
Science to me is honest as it searches for truth and it is absolutely modest in it´s failures( actually enthralled to find out it had been wrong).There is no hidden agenda with science.
Anyway i will always say i respect people for their belief´s. I just wanted to write my position on science and that more respect for it is needed.
I never said that. Of course science has been wrong, but it learns from its mistakes, and even they help to increase our stock of knowledge about the universe we live in.
I could go on, but I'd just be repeating what newy777 said above.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
BBQ & BON FIRE
Seriously, I am!
ill be laughing at the people who think this is actually coming... other than that itll be business as usual.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
just kidding.....
i think i might party like it's 1999 or something
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Well... here is a bit of advice about it (hope I'm not offending anyone as it's sweet, really!)
http://www.atheistmedia.com/2011/05/rapture-advice.html
not much different than today
I LOVE IT!!!
Exactly. I meant it to go both ways. I cannot prove there is a God any more than anyone else can prove there isn't. There should be no burden of proof on anyone. We should be allowed to believe whatever helps us move through life. My belief that I will see my loved ones in the afterlife is the only thing keeping me going at this point, as much as I've lost. Who is anyone to try and take that sliver of hope away from me?
Pandora- your post about mother's made me cry, thank you for posting it.
welcome
wanted to add...
I heard a quote from a survivor of the tornado disaster,
he said...
"They say these are the 'Acts of God'...I've never understood this.
The Acts of God is all this"...
as he points to all the people who have come to his community,
strangers who have come to help, help pull out the survivors buried beneath the rubble,
help with generosity and love and help by sharing the tears and sorrow.
These... the Acts of God.
seeing the world through eyes like that.... eyes of hope!
Thanks for sharing Embleve
Thanks for this today, EmBleve, I needed it.
The first ant said, “These hills and plains are the most barren I have known. I have searched all day for a grain of some sort, and there is none to be found.”
Said the second ant, “I too have found nothing, though I have visited every nook and glade. This is, I believe, what my people call the soft, moving land where nothing grows.”
Then the third ant raised his head and said, “My friends, we are standing now on the nose of the Supreme Ant, the mighty and infinite Ant, whose body is so great that we cannot see it, whose shadow is so vast that we cannot trace it, whose voice is so loud that we cannot hear it; and He is omnipresent.”
When the third ant spoke thus the other ants looked at each other and laughed.
At that moment the man moved and in his sleep raised his hand and scratched his nose, and the three ants were crushed.
:thumbup: I like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0TbCwC3OuY
1998: Barrie
2000: Montreal, Toronto, Auburn Hills
2003: Cleveland, Buffalo, Toronto, Montreal
2004: Boston X2, Grand Rapids
2005: Kitchener, London, Hamilton, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto
2006: Toronto X2
2009: Toronto
2011: PJ20, Montreal, Toronto X2, Hamilton
2012: Manchester X2, Amsterdam X2, Prague, Berlin X2, Philadelphia, Missoula
2013: Pittsburg, Buffalo
2014: Milan, Trieste, Vienna, Berlin, Stockholm, Oslo, Detroit
2016: Ottawa, Toronto X2
2018: Padova, Rome, Prague, Krakow, Berlin, Barcelona
2023: Chicago X2
2024: New York X2
i posted my opinions here on this thread before but they were so far back, i'll post my blog on religion to let you know how i feel. http://ivys2cents.blogspot.com/2009/08/ ... -this.html
i'm a person with a disability. tonight i taught a university class on Inclusion in school. i have aides. mine heard my talk tonight because she drove my there.
here's basically what i said to the class http://youtu.be/PVbq1TImFjc it's 25mins long. lol! but really it says why/how schools should include kids with disabilities.
i realize that religion helps me in the fact that my aides are caring do right people. so they in theory are perfect for being my aide. a certain connection happens when you take care of somebody for so long. that's where i have trouble a lot with aides. they tend to want to take over. i see my aides as assistants, nothing more, maybe a friend. i'm sure she doesn't see herself as that.
out of my inclusion talk she got i don't feel included and felt the need to tell me God loves me. there's a definite heaven and hell. God doesn't come to people you have to go to him. blah blah blah.
i tell my aides no religion talk when they start.
this is going to snowball i just know it and i'm going to have to fire her.
what would you do?
Hey...
It's a touchy situation. I think you just need to talk this one out with your aide. You may find that you inspire her... which may (or may not) trigger those emotions associated with religious belief/faith. I think you two just need to sit and discuss, letting each know where you stand. If things work out, they work out. If not, then it may be in both of your best interests to part ways. You're smart... you know what to do.
Anyway... I personally believe you are doing just fine. No one needs to pray for you... you are a beautiful woman and from what you say and write, it sounds like you've got your head screwed on straight. If someone is looking for someone to pray for... there are several million people who will go to sleep in hunger... out in the elements... with death hanging over their heads. Tell them to pray for those people... the ones whom God seems to have forsaken.
Good luck with that.
Hail, Hail!!!
i think i will talk with her about it if she brings it up again and share that blog with her.
i'm too scared to bring it up myself because i don't want to cause a riff. it's sad but i don't feel people respect differences in beliefs enough to make me want to bring it up.
I know what you mean.
I get all sorts of reactions... because I wish people well with their religious beliefs, but let them know that I don't believe them. Sorry, but that's the truth on how I feel. They need not convince me of anything... they can share their beliefs... and I'll listen. But, I won't follow.
Anyway, I like what you say... truthfully, Jesus doesn't need to heal you, you seem just fine to me.
Hail, Hail!!!
yup.
no healing for me!
but see then you're stuck dealing with the whole, "I must spread Gods word" thing. and it potentially won't stop. how do you deal with that?
You really can't deal with that. All you can do is let them ramble on and listen... sometimes, it makes them feel good... talking it out. Problems that usually crop up... they talk, but don't listen.
I just say what I truely feel... I am happy they have found what they say they have found... but, i think I'll go in this direction instead. It's my calling... I'm following that different drum beat... over there... not where you've already been. It's not that I don't believe they believe to know the way... it's just that I don't believe them. Works for them... not for me, just like what works for me... I know won't work for them.
I still get the, "I'll say a prayer for you" thing ... which is nice... but, really... I'm okay. Pray for someone who really needs to be sent a prayer. Sometimes, they figure it out... sometimes, they never get the clue.
Hail, Hail!!!