Religious Beliefs

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  • I'd say you are a theist then. I think many people believe in God but don't truly understand what that means to them. Nothing wrong with that. I think it's refreshing, actually, for someone to say that.
    Shit, what the hell am i?
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  • EmBleveEmBleve Posts: 3,019
    Looks like the religious nuts are running the asylum!

    Nope, the fruit loops are--didn't you know they occupy asylums?. 'Religious nuts'?? Nice. You just can't help yourself, can you? :!: Must be nice to be able to stereotype so easily...makes for a real interesting life. Won't you just stop it already??
  • EmBleveEmBleve Posts: 3,019
    Paul David wrote:
    I'd say you are a theist then. I think many people believe in God but don't truly understand what that means to them. Nothing wrong with that. I think it's refreshing, actually, for someone to say that.

    I agree.
  • EmBleveEmBleve Posts: 3,019
    [
    And proud of it! :lol: That's why my friends and family love me. Thanks.[/quote]

    I was just thinking the same thing! :clap: Bravo for fruit loops.... the colorful, imaginative, endearing,
    and way sweet one in the bunch! :D[/quote]

    Yep, that's usually the case. lolol. ;):)
  • Random_WookieRandom_Wookie Posts: 1,099
    EmBleve wrote:

    Nope, the fruit loops are--didn't you know they occupy asylums?. 'Religious nuts'?? Nice. You just can't help yourself, can you? :!: Must be nice to be able to stereotype so easily...makes for a real interesting life. Won't you just stop it already??

    I would have to agree that they may not be religious nuts, but their self righteousness can push a person into the land of crazy.
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  • BinauralJamBinauralJam Posts: 14,158
    Good Day, :D
  • Random_WookieRandom_Wookie Posts: 1,099
    Good Day, :D

    every day is a good day :D , its just some a better
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  • EmBleveEmBleve Posts: 3,019

    I would have to agree that they may not be religious nuts, but their self righteousness can push a person into the land of crazy.

    Yes it can!!
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    EmBleve wrote:

    Yes it can!!
    self righteousness .... having smug superiority
    seems to me that is both sides not just the spiritual/ religious

    ....stereotyping is an easy way out of spending the time to know and understand another human being
    and often used to feel superior over the other 'class' of person
    It doesn't make for any advances.... any revelations....
    it comes from a closed mind and heart that is without the love required to make human bonds except with those they feel are like themselves with like views.
    Not a healthy tool when working toward unconditional love and acceptance.
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    usually people that use that word to describe someone else have a fear or uncertainty about then selfs.

    Godfather.
  • EmBleveEmBleve Posts: 3,019
    pandora wrote:
    self righteousness .... having smug superiority
    seems to me that is both sides not just the spiritual/ religious

    ....stereotyping is an easy way out of spending the time to know and understand another human being
    and often used to feel superior over the other 'class' of person
    It doesn't make for any advances.... any revelations....
    it comes from a closed mind and heart that is without the love required to make human bonds except with those they feel are like themselves with like views.
    Not a healthy tool when working toward unconditional love and acceptance.
    [/quote][/quote]

    Yes, it's quite sad, really. And despite any spiritual/religious personal beliefs, nobody needs such negativity from such individuals in his/her life...it's just like a rotten cloud that invades and permeates...I haven't pored over every post in this thread, but it seems to me that most are pretty open and accepting and are able to admit that nobody really knows, and are interested in other views.. I don't think the 'self-righteousness' thing has dominated, but it is definitely evident in certain posts--and yes, from both sides, not just the 'religious' ones. It's just insane and really disheartening. :( (the quote embedding thing is messing me up. haha)
  • I believe religious freedom must be respected, no matter what one's own personal beliefs may be.

    The following verse of the Quran states this in a very clear manner:

    "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!" (10:99)
  • BinauralJamBinauralJam Posts: 14,158
    Release_Me wrote:
    I believe religious freedom must be respected, no matter what one's own personal beliefs may be.

    The following verse of the Quran states this in a very clear manner:

    "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!" (10:99)


    A buddy of mine read the Quran, started telling me about it, very intresting, scientific and logical, not what i was expecting.
  • blondieblue227blondieblue227 Va, USA Posts: 4,509
    anybody mention the HBO special of recent (it's about this subject) Sunset Limited?
    i enjoyed it. dark but interesting.
    *~Pearl Jam will be blasted from speakers until morale improves~*



  • A buddy of mine read the Quran, started telling me about it, very intresting, scientific and logical, not what i was expecting.

    That is the thing. The more I read, the more convinced I am of it's Divinity, owing to the fact that it appeals to my intellect. That's the most important aspect for me. To be honest, I have only recited the Quran in it's entirety in Arabic, which is a language I can read but not understand. I have read English translations of various chapters or parts of certain chapters, so I would have to say that technically, I haven't finished reading it yet.

    The way I go about it is to pick out a certain issue, e.g. the rights of women in Islam, then start reading the chapters/verses relevant to it and make sense of what is said. I find this way to be less overwhelming than tackling the whole book. The best English language online resource I have come across for studying the Quran (or Islam for that matter) is:

    http://www.al-mawrid.org/

    The questions and articles sections in particular are very informative, if you're just looking for answers pertaining to a specific subject.
  • OnTheEdgeOnTheEdge Posts: 1,300
    edited March 2011
    OK. So I haven't taken the time to read every post but I've read through the first 4 or 5 pages or so. Pretty much what i'm gathering here is that pretty much everyone on the train does not believe in God. And not only that, but they are willing to bash the ones that choose to keep their faith.

    I see people questioning the faith because of certain evils in the world. ie. If there was a GOD how could he let this happen. All I gotta say is that "Eve ate the apple". Therefore creating CHOICE in this world, and we alone are responsible for our choices. We can either choose evil, and pay the price on our day of judgement, or we can choose the good side, and keep the faith. This world is definately changing. 20 years ago comments like the ones in this thread would of been unheard of.
    Post edited by OnTheEdge on
  • OnTheEdge wrote:
    OK. So I haven't taken the time to read every post but I've read through the first 4 or 5 pages or so. Pretty much what i'm gathering here is that pretty much everyone on the train does not believe in God. And not only that, but they are willing to bash the ones that choose to keep their faith.

    don't generalize. only a select few will bash others for their belief system. and there are just as many on the other side of the fence that do the same.
    Gimli 1993
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  • OnTheEdgeOnTheEdge Posts: 1,300
    Paul David wrote:

    don't generalize. only a select few will bash others for their belief system. and there are just as many on the other side of the fence that do the same.


    Agreed.
  • OnTheEdge wrote:
    OK. So I haven't taken the time to read every post but I've read through the first 4 or 5 pages or so. Pretty much what i'm gathering here is that pretty much everyone on the train does not believe in God. And not only that, but they are willing to bash the ones that choose to keep their faith.

    I see people questioning the faith because of certain evils in the world. ie. If there was a GOD how could he let this happen. All I gotta say is that "Eve ate the apple". Therefore creating CHOICE in this world, and we alone are responsible for our choices. We can either choose evil, and pay the price on our day of judgement, or we can choose the good side, and keep the faith. This world is definately changing. 20 years ago comments like the ones in this thread would of been unheard of.

    I agree with your second paragraph. Choice and free will give us the option to choose our own destiny, thus we are ourselves responsible for the consequences of our choices. It is my belief that God has complete knowledge of our destiny, but that does not mean we cannot make choices. He is already aware of the choices we will make and what will come of them, but He does not force us to make those choices.

    Human beings have the propensity for both good and evil and also have the innate ability to distinguish between the two. The Quran states:

    And the soul bears witness and the perfection given to it, then [God] inspired it with its evil and its good that he succeeded who purified it and he failed who corrupted it. (91:7-10)

    In fact, man himself is a witness upon his own self however much he may put up excuses. (75:14-15)
  • i think your beliefs are your own and no one should question them or belittle them. as long as you don't try to impress them onto others then there is no problem.

    personally, i'm an athiest. i see no logical explanation for god, the infinite loop created by the argument god created everything, but who created him doesn't sit well either. i can't fathom the thought of a god that sits up in the sky and listens to everyone's personal prayers, the thought of a universal yet personal god seems counterintuitive. i also don't like organised religion, dogma is an unnecessary part of belief. i'm also not impressed with their actions in history, they have a lot to answer for...billions killed, sexual abuses and so forth. their protected status is also unjust, tax free havens, in australia they also get funding through their private schools from the government while also charging high fees yet public schools receive approximately a third the amount of funding.

    i like to believe the human race is strong enough to 'be' without the need for a god. i think it's levelling to think this is the only shot you've got so make the most of it. it makes you appreciate what's out there a whole lot more, unfortunately the thought of an afterlife seems to mean that people don't care too much about this world as they're basically living it for the next life...
    i know i was born and i know that i'll die the inbetween is mine ---------------------------------------------------- FEB 11, 13, 14 Sydney 2003 NOV 7, 8, 18, 2006 Sydney NOV 20, 2009 Melbourne NOV 22, 2009 Sydney NOV 25, 2009 Brisbane MAR 18 & 19 2012 Sydney EV Solo JAN 26, 2014 Sydney FEB 12 & 14 2014 Sydney EV Solo
  • i think your beliefs are your own and no one should question them or belittle them. as long as you don't try to impress them onto others then there is no problem.

    personally, i'm an athiest. i see no logical explanation for god, the infinite loop created by the argument god created everything, but who created him doesn't sit well either. i can't fathom the thought of a god that sits up in the sky and listens to everyone's personal prayers, the thought of a universal yet personal god seems counterintuitive. i also don't like organised religion, dogma is an unnecessary part of belief. i'm also not impressed with their actions in history, they have a lot to answer for...billions killed, sexual abuses and so forth. their protected status is also unjust, tax free havens, in australia they also get funding through their private schools from the government while also charging high fees yet public schools receive approximately a third the amount of funding.

    i like to believe the human race is strong enough to 'be' without the need for a god. i think it's levelling to think this is the only shot you've got so make the most of it. it makes you appreciate what's out there a whole lot more, unfortunately the thought of an afterlife seems to mean that people don't care too much about this world as they're basically living it for the next life...

    The most I can do is share my beliefs with others, maybe even invite them to my faith if I ever gain the sort of knowledge to answer the questions people may bring up, but compelling them to believe would be contrary to my own belief as a Muslim, that of religious freedom.

    I am familiar with the atheist viewpoint, but I respectfully disagree. I see no logical explanation of life of any kind existing since time immemorial, without a Creator having created it. The question of creation of the Creator himself doesn't arise when you consider the fact that the Creator is by definition a sole entity with no needs or dependencies. His Signs are everywhere: the many natural processes that we have not even understood completely yet, running like clockwork by themselves. The arguments are endless, but suffice to say that we have different viewpoints and we can stick to them as we please :)
    Again, as was pointed out earlier, blaming religion for the acts of it's followers through history doesn't really make a lot of sense. Human beings are flawed and will commit mistakes, do evil things and cause a lot of destruction. They will also do some amazing things and be remembered for them. Religion gives them guidance, but it doesn't make them perfect. In my opinion, the way to judge a religion would be to study the religion itself and see for yourself what it says, whether it appeals to your intellect or not.
    As a Muslim, I DO believe this life is the only shot I've got, to make something for myself in the Hereafter. If I was to believe that this life is the be-all and end-all, then I wouldn't bother with how I conduct myself in this world, as long as I can gain some sort of benefit for myself. The day someone convinces me that I am not answerable for my actions and that I can get away with anything as long as I don't get caught, I'll have no fear in doing as I please. If I do injustice to others and hurt them in the process, so what? I just have to make sure I'm smart enough to evade the law, which many people are. Also, people in power would have nothing stopping them from abusing power (which is already the case in some countries). The poor and destitute would have no hope, they would think they are destined to live a life of poverty and then just die. That's just the hand that fate has dealt them.
    Living this life for the 'afterlife' actually makes us think twice about what we do, it keeps us honest. Such is human nature. Being religious doesn't mean you neglect worldly affairs, it means you handle them in a fair manner, simply because you know you are answerable for them. However, this is my personal viewpoint as a Muslim, so you can dismiss it as the ranting of a religious nut if you so please :D
  • EmBleveEmBleve Posts: 3,019
    Release_Me wrote:

    The most I can do is share my beliefs with others, maybe even invite them to my faith if I ever gain the sort of knowledge to answer the questions people may bring up, but compelling them to believe would be contrary to my own belief as a Muslim, that of religious freedom.

    I am familiar with the atheist viewpoint, but I respectfully disagree. I see no logical explanation of life of any kind existing since time immemorial, without a Creator having created it. The question of creation of the Creator himself doesn't arise when you consider the fact that the Creator is by definition a sole entity with no needs or dependencies. His Signs are everywhere: the many natural processes that we have not even understood completely yet, running like clockwork by themselves. The arguments are endless, but suffice to say that we have different viewpoints and we can stick to them as we please :)
    Again, as was pointed out earlier, blaming religion for the acts of it's followers through history doesn't really make a lot of sense. Human beings are flawed and will commit mistakes, do evil things and cause a lot of destruction. They will also do some amazing things and be remembered for them. Religion gives them guidance, but it doesn't make them perfect. In my opinion, the way to judge a religion would be to study the religion itself and see for yourself what it says, whether it appeals to your intellect or not.
    As a Muslim, I DO believe this life is the only shot I've got, to make something for myself in the Hereafter. If I was to believe that this life is the be-all and end-all, then I wouldn't bother with how I conduct myself in this world, as long as I can gain some sort of benefit for myself. The day someone convinces me that I am not answerable for my actions and that I can get away with anything as long as I don't get caught, I'll have no fear in doing as I please. If I do injustice to others and hurt them in the process, so what? I just have to make sure I'm smart enough to evade the law, which many people are. Also, people in power would have nothing stopping them from abusing power (which is already the case in some countries). The poor and destitute would have no hope, they would think they are destined to live a life of poverty and then just die. That's just the hand that fate has dealt them.
    Living this life for the 'afterlife' actually makes us think twice about what we do, it keeps us honest. Such is human nature. Being religious doesn't mean you neglect worldly affairs, it means you handle them in a fair manner, simply because you know you are answerable for them. However, this is my personal viewpoint as a Muslim, so you can dismiss it as the ranting of a religious nut if you so please :D
    well-stated and eye opening.
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    Release_Me wrote:
    ...If I was to believe that this life is the be-all and end-all, then I wouldn't bother with how I conduct myself in this world, as long as I can gain some sort of benefit for myself. The day someone convinces me that I am not answerable for my actions and that I can get away with anything as long as I don't get caught, I'll have no fear in doing as I please.

    Well... that doesn't say much for you then, does it? You are implying that if you did not believe in some sort of reward/punishment, you would put all your morals aside and you would not even try to behave as a reasonable human being? I don't believe in 'judgment day' and an afterlife, but I AM answerable for my actions (and not towards the law). I am answerable to myself, to those around me (and beyond).

    Release_Me wrote:
    Living this life for the 'afterlife' actually makes us think twice about what we do, it keeps us honest. Such is human nature. D

    Human nature is NOT that. Your lack of 'faith' in the human being is quite shocking!
  • Release_Me wrote:
    Being religious doesn't mean you neglect worldly affairs, it means you handle them in a fair manner, simply because you know you are answerable for them. However, this is my personal viewpoint as a Muslim, so you can dismiss it as the ranting of a religious nut if you so please :D

    i won't dismiss you as a nutjob, you're beliefs are yours and i respect that. every person on this planet is able to have their own beliefs without being persecuted or berated for them...free will

    unfortunately i still find flaws in the logic. to say the creator just 'is' because he has no needs or dependencies is bad reasoning and logic. if a creator made this universe, there has to be something that created the creator, its an infinite loop.
    As a Muslim, I DO believe this life is the only shot I've got, to make something for myself in the Hereafter. If I was to believe that this life is the be-all and end-all, then I wouldn't bother with how I conduct myself in this world, as long as I can gain some sort of benefit for myself. The day someone convinces me that I am not answerable for my actions and that I can get away with anything as long as I don't get caught, I'll have no fear in doing as I please. If I do injustice to others and hurt them in the process, so what? I just have to make sure I'm smart enough to evade the law, which many people are. Also, people in power would have nothing stopping them from abusing power (which is already the case in some countries). The poor and destitute would have no hope, they would think they are destined to live a life of poverty and then just die. That's just the hand that fate has dealt them.

    you've kind of proved/helped my argument there, you're living this life for another, so its hard to say that the belief that this is the ONLY shot. why would you not bother with how you conducted yourself if this was the only shot you had and no afterlife? you've still got to live with your fellow humans on this planet. you're definitely answerable for your actions in this life, the belief in a diety or religion does not provide the only source of a moral code. if i was to take the morals of the various scriptures from most monotheistic religions, we'd still be living in the stone ages and killing people petty things. as one example, when i was a teenager and i was pissed off with my parents, had i been vocal about it and told someone i should have been stoned to death...this does not seem very moral. laws are also one thing, you've got to answer to yourself, if you did do something to harm someone you'd have to live with that for the rest of your life, and unless you're a psycopath with no emotions, you would.

    there is purpose to life other than the hope that there is an afterlife, being an active member of your community, helping out others in need where you can, just being a good human is enough. the 'golden rule' comes to mind here, i don't need a god telling me it's wrong to kill another or not treat them as i would myself is wrong, it's instinctual and most humans would follow this even without a deity based belief system.
    Again, as was pointed out earlier, blaming religion for the acts of it's followers through history doesn't really make a lot of sense. Human beings are flawed and will commit mistakes, do evil things and cause a lot of destruction. They will also do some amazing things and be remembered for them. Religion gives them guidance, but it doesn't make them perfect. In my opinion, the way to judge a religion would be to study the religion itself and see for yourself what it says, whether it appeals to your intellect or not.

    how can you not blame religion for the acts of its followers? we're talking about the monotheistic religions here...their gods are incredibly jealous gods and its actively noted in many parts of the scriptures that he who does not follow what you believe should be slain. the koran (quran?), the king james and the torah all have verses to this effect in them...king james: thou shalt have no other gods before me. it's hard to excuse the part religion played in history.

    again, i respect your beliefs and won't say you're wrong for believing them, it's your choice and free will is everyones right. i myself can't bring myself to believe in any of them.

    btw, eddie has been awesome sydney!!! both nights have been incredible, and i'm happy as larry there's been a fair bit of No Code played...just wish 'who you are' or 'in my tree' were played!!
    i know i was born and i know that i'll die the inbetween is mine ---------------------------------------------------- FEB 11, 13, 14 Sydney 2003 NOV 7, 8, 18, 2006 Sydney NOV 20, 2009 Melbourne NOV 22, 2009 Sydney NOV 25, 2009 Brisbane MAR 18 & 19 2012 Sydney EV Solo JAN 26, 2014 Sydney FEB 12 & 14 2014 Sydney EV Solo
  • EmBleveEmBleve Posts: 3,019
    i think your beliefs are your own and no one should question them or belittle them. as long as you don't try to impress them onto others then there is no problem.

    personally, i'm an athiest. i see no logical explanation for god, the infinite loop created by the argument god created everything, but who created him doesn't sit well either. i can't fathom the thought of a god that sits up in the sky and listens to everyone's personal prayers, the thought of a universal yet personal god seems counterintuitive. i also don't like organised religion, dogma is an unnecessary part of belief. i'm also not impressed with their actions in history, they have a lot to answer for...billions killed, sexual abuses and so forth. their protected status is also unjust, tax free havens, in australia they also get funding through their private schools from the government while also charging high fees yet public schools receive approximately a third the amount of funding.

    i like to believe the human race is strong enough to 'be' without the need for a god. i think it's levelling to think this is the only shot you've got so make the most of it. it makes you appreciate what's out there a whole lot more, unfortunately the thought of an afterlife seems to mean that people don't care too much about this world as they're basically living it for the next life...

    although I'm not atheist, I do agree with several of your points including not belittling others for their beliefs, and that dogma is an unnecessary part of belief. The last paragraph is what is most interesting to me, though, because, even though I believe in an afterlife for the most part, that doesn't really affect the way I appreciate my current state of existence..I guess, more to the point, I don't think I am living this life for the next life, like not just going through the motions to get to the other side. But I do see your point. It's kind of like, to me personally, that in the afterlife, there will not be the same 'life' as the human one I am living here, so in that sense, this IS the only life for me, in this body, as this person, so I do have to make to make the most of it, and defintiely try to make some contribution to caring for the world that I'm living in. But, I have also known some people who think like what you're saying, as well, as though 'well, I just can't wait to the afterlife cuz this one sucks so bad so I'm essentially going to give up and just wait'. That wouldn't make this life very fulfilling.
  • EmBleveEmBleve Posts: 3,019
    redrock wrote:

    Well... that doesn't say much for you then, does it? You are implying that if you did not believe in some sort of reward/punishment, you would put all your morals aside and you would not even try to behave as a reasonable human being? I don't believe in 'judgment day' and an afterlife, but I AM answerable for my actions (and not towards the law). I am answerable to myself, to those around me (and beyond).


    Human nature is NOT that. ]
    you and phunkymonkey have made excellent points about humanity and morality!! People know what is reasonable and moral and do not need to fall back on any external reward/punishment system to make independent decisions.
  • ed243421ed243421 Posts: 7,676
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    OK. So I haven't taken the time to read every post but I've read through the first 4 or 5 pages or so. Pretty much what i'm gathering here is that pretty much everyone on the train does not believe in God. And not only that, but they are willing to bash the ones that choose to keep their faith.

    I see people questioning the faith because of certain evils in the world. ie. If there was a GOD how could he let this happen. All I gotta say is that "Eve ate the apple". Therefore creating CHOICE in this world, and we alone are responsible for our choices. We can either choose evil, and pay the price on our day of judgement, or we can choose the good side, and keep the faith. This world is definately changing. 20 years ago comments like the ones in this thread would of been unheard of.

    this is not an attack
    one's beliefs are their own
    just gotta ask though
    if you believe that eve ate the apple
    then you must believe the thing about adam being created from a hunk of mud
    or do you believe in evolution and the facts that we share 98%(or so)
    of our dna with chimps
    and 0% of our dna with mud
    The whole world will be different soon... - EV
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  • I was referring to myself to make a point. What really is the need for morals if this worldly life is all I have? Why shouldn't I try to make the most of it as best I can? If there are laws to stop me and I can find loopholes in them to suit myself, why shouldn't I? Sure, I have a conscience, but we all know that people can commit all sorts of atrocities despite having a conscience. Like I said, human beings have a propensity for evil, it's ingrained in our nature. That's why every country has laws, to act as a deterrent against crimes. What happens when someone can get away with taking the law into their own hands? How do the people who are wronged expect to get justice? Fact is, everyone has a conscience, yet people commit rapes, murders, robberies, etc. The mere presence of a conscience does not guarantee that everyone will behave reasonably.

    I quoted a verse from the Quran which explicitly states that human beings are born with an innate understanding of good and evil and they themselves can judge when they commit a wrong. The Quran reinforces the fact that all of us are born with a conscience and this alone should be enough to guide us through our lives, in an ideal world. However, despite this, we all know that laws are necessary and a lawless land would be in a state of complete anarchy. Religion simply lays down a code by which a human being should live his life by reinforcing or encouraging the good in us, while directing us to suppress the evil as much as possible. To what extent a believer follows this code is entirely upto him.

    You may interpret what I say as a lack of faith in the human being, I can understand that. However, looking back at human history, it's not very difficult to see that this lack of faith is not misplaced.

    I have all the respect in the world for the atheist who relies on his conscience to get him through life, I think it's admirable. Such a person is not far from faith, the way I see it. A very important part of Islam, at least, is to treat your fellow beings fairly, fulfil all their rights and treat everyone justly. This is the part that most people struggle with, even so called believers. Merely stating that you believe in God and the Day of Judgement, while doing all sorts of things that prove the contrary, doesn't really make anyone a believer. It's doing good in your worldly life that actually leads you to ask questions about your existence and what exists beyond what you can merely see.

    I don't really give much credit to those who are believers by birth but don't show it through their actions. I have far more respect for someone who may not believe but does good and asks questions about the injustices that people commit, while having an open enough mind to scrutinize what a particular religion has to say, whatever his opinion of it maybe.
  • Release_Me wrote:
    I was referring to myself to make a point. What really is the need for morals if this worldly life is all I have?

    this angers me. i understand the fact your were using yourself to put forward a point, but the logic is so flawed...

    sorry, i'm not attacking you, but to say that you can only have morals in this world if sourced by religion is insulting.

    religion may have formed the basis for current morality, but the morals taken straight from the scriptures in our modern world are archaic, lacking and are not reflective of the more secular nature of todays humanity.
    i know i was born and i know that i'll die the inbetween is mine ---------------------------------------------------- FEB 11, 13, 14 Sydney 2003 NOV 7, 8, 18, 2006 Sydney NOV 20, 2009 Melbourne NOV 22, 2009 Sydney NOV 25, 2009 Brisbane MAR 18 & 19 2012 Sydney EV Solo JAN 26, 2014 Sydney FEB 12 & 14 2014 Sydney EV Solo

  • i won't dismiss you as a nutjob, you're beliefs are yours and i respect that. every person on this planet is able to have their own beliefs without being persecuted or berated for them...free will

    unfortunately i still find flaws in the logic. to say the creator just 'is' because he has no needs or dependencies is bad reasoning and logic. if a creator made this universe, there has to be something that created the creator, its an infinite loop.

    you've kind of proved/helped my argument there, you're living this life for another, so its hard to say that the belief that this is the ONLY shot. why would you not bother with how you conducted yourself if this was the only shot you had and no afterlife? you've still got to live with your fellow humans on this planet. you're definitely answerable for your actions in this life, the belief in a diety or religion does not provide the only source of a moral code. if i was to take the morals of the various scriptures from most monotheistic religions, we'd still be living in the stone ages and killing people petty things. as one example, when i was a teenager and i was pissed off with my parents, had i been vocal about it and told someone i should have been stoned to death...this does not seem very moral. laws are also one thing, you've got to answer to yourself, if you did do something to harm someone you'd have to live with that for the rest of your life, and unless you're a psycopath with no emotions, you would.

    there is purpose to life other than the hope that there is an afterlife, being an active member of your community, helping out others in need where you can, just being a good human is enough. the 'golden rule' comes to mind here, i don't need a god telling me it's wrong to kill another or not treat them as i would myself is wrong, it's instinctual and most humans would follow this even without a deity based belief system.

    how can you not blame religion for the acts of its followers? we're talking about the monotheistic religions here...their gods are incredibly jealous gods and its actively noted in many parts of the scriptures that he who does not follow what you believe should be slain. the koran (quran?), the king james and the torah all have verses to this effect in them...king james: thou shalt have no other gods before me. it's hard to excuse the part religion played in history.

    again, i respect your beliefs and won't say you're wrong for believing them, it's your choice and free will is everyones right. i myself can't bring myself to believe in any of them.

    btw, eddie has been awesome sydney!!! both nights have been incredible, and i'm happy as larry there's been a fair bit of No Code played...just wish 'who you are' or 'in my tree' were played!!

    We'll have to disagree with the infinite loop thing, because the God I believe in has existed forever and was not created Himself, He simply is. Getting into more details is simply a matter of faith. However, the theory that everything has just existed makes just as much sense to me as the theory of a Creator does to you, so let's leave it at that.

    I qualified my statement by saying it's the only shot I have to make something for myself in the Hereafter. I know I have to live with my fellow humans, be a part of the community and do good, my conscience tells me that and I stated the same in my previous post. I've already discussed the aspect of answering to one's own conscience and stated that it is a fact reinforced in the Quran as well, so I won't go on about it again.
    I can only talk about Islam when I say that stoning to death or killing someone over petty issues are just popular misconceptions which have been popularised by the media and given strength through the ill-advised actions of people over the ages. Islam doesn't give any such punishment to a person for arguing with his parents :D I suggest people who believe Islam is outdated or based on laws of the stone-age should take time to study Islam themselves rather than draw their conclusions from what they see or hear.

    The notion that the Quran has verses which say that Muslims of today should slay the unbelievers is a complete myth. The Quran has certain verses which discuss the various battles which occurred during the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). For understanding them, one needs to understand a very basic principle of God: He sent his Messengers to earth from time to time to bring people to the right path whenever they had gone astray. A lot of the time, these Messengers were rejected by their people and were not able to gain much of a following. Everytime a Messenger was sent, God gave the people a certain deadline to accept His message, failing which they were subjected to God's wrath in the form of natural calamities, e.g. the Great Flood during the time of Noah. In the case of Muhammad (pbuh), the difference was that most of the people had accepted Islam, the few who had not accepted God's message were subjected to His wrath, which in this case was to die by the sword on the battlefield. The verses which tell Muslims to slay the unbelievers were revealed in this particular context and were applicable to this specific era, when the God ordained deadline had passed. The word unbeliever or kafir refers to those specific people only, who were the direct addressees of God's Messenger and had rejected His message despite it having being made absolutely clear to them by the Prophet (pbuh).

    Extending the application of such verses which are clearly mentioned for a specific context is simply dishonest. If it was accepted that these verses were meant for all times to come, then the Quran would be contradicting itself when it talks about religious freedom. The directive for the Muslims of all times to come is to spread their faith solely through their strength of character and by inviting people to Islam. Everyone is given the right to choose their own religion. The theory of killing the unbelievers doesn't hold, simply because in this day and age, no non-Muslim can be classed as an unbeliever or kafir in the real sense of the word, because no one living today has received the message of God directly through His Messenger.

    I'll only talk about Islam here, because I don't know enough about the other monotheistic religions. Whenever people have committed injustices in the name of Islam throughout history, it wasn't because of their religion, rather it was because of their ignorance towards understanding their religion, which is something they themselves have to be blamed for, not Islam. Think Osama Bin Laden.

    As a sidenote, I envy you for living in Sydney because you actually get to see the band live, pretty often too :cry:
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