I was baptised methodist, but raised Catholic by my Catholic mother (was only baptised that way cos both my parents were in the Army stationed in West Germany where I was born and he was the only priest on base..)
I know not everyone believes in this kind of thing..I've had my fair share of being called a witch or a nutter from the religious and non-religious alike..but I know what I see is real. I have seen heaven and hell (part of it, anyways). I've also been shown that our final judgement is based on how we treated others. Did we intentionally hurt others, do we truely regret it..Trust me, the terrorists who flew planes into the towers did not make it into heaven. No way, no how..
Curiously, I haven't seen a 'God' of sorts. Actually heaven is more like just a continuance of life. We don't change. If you are a human here, you will be there as well..No dying and coming back as a cougar..unless you mean the middle-aged female human kind LoL..OMG the peaceful feeling is so undescribable! It just embraces every inch of your being..it's just so absolutely beautiful..
It's kinda hard for me not to believe in heaven, and the afterlife, after seeing these things..I don't expect to be believed..I'm used to that.
Ok. What did you see?
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
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Thank you ...
If you read my original post
I asked the questions to try grasp the why because I have seen it many times...
'don't pray for me'
and I don't understand it when someones motives are loving.
They are not forcing anything on the atheist just showing love the way they know how.
As in the 1 and 2 Paul David explains which I agree with, we are speaking of genuine #1
You have projected on me what you think my motives are, my tone and manner
judging where I am coming from in a negative way
And now I am more confused because you say you do not dislike prayer etc...
'but just don't do it for me I do not want it or need it.'
But if this is how some one shows love should we not accept that?
Out of respect for another human being.
Not much different then my "no problem" encounters
I accept the "no problem" reply to my thank you although
I find it rather offensive...not loving like 'you're welcome'
an atheist could accept "you are in my thoughts and prayers"?
as a kind gesture given...because that is the way it was intended.
But if an atheist does not see it as kind then they are bound to be offended,
so perhaps it is how we perceive the gesture....
and the words we write here
as much as I believe your heart is in the right place, Pandora, and your stance is love rather than recruitment, I have to explain my own personal experience with this sort of thing.
My brother became born again christian back in our 20's, and it was very weird to be around him and his g/f (now wife). It always came across as condescending, even though he honestly thought he was doing good, spreading the message, if you will. But people around him felt uncomfortable, talked down to, etc. My parents (also church-goers at the time) eventually had to sit him down and tell him to shut his mouth, as it was causing issues at family gatherings.
He significantly toned it down over time, and our relationship is good again. But a theist shouldn't assume that just because your intentions are pure and good that your message is still expected to be received with open arms.
I think it also comes from a very out dated ideal in our world; that everyone believes in god. Because, in our not too distant past, it was just expected that you did. Everyone went to church on Sunday. If you didn't believe in God, you didn't say so. You didn't ask. But nowadays, things are very different. And it can sometimes come across as arrogant that a christian just assumes that someone would be accepting of their message.
Religion is a very personal thing, and no matter if it's simply a "god bless you" after sneezing (we all remember that thread), or holding a cross up and saying "I shall pray for your soul to turn from eternal damnation", it's all the same to some.
Just like hugs are great, and pure, and lovely, and comforting. But not everyone likes them. And they may have a very good reason for that. And that should be respected.
Gimli 1993
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It's a lot like here..I could control my perception. On the street I could see the homes, but once I was on one of the properties, it was green as far as I could see, an open feild with a few bushes and the one house. I could feel the next property was close, but couldn't see it. There was also a fella there who had these perfectly round little marbles. They were balls of amber, a very pale coloured amber, and encapsulated in the middle were these gorgeous perfect little flowers..There was more, but it's so much..Hell, on the other hand, was nothing. Literally..just blackness. I could sense there were walls and they were close, but I also just knew that I could go forever and never touch a wall. There was nobody, no things, and I had no body..Just my thoughts and memories. You think you understand what eternity is, but once there, you really fully grasp it. It was soooo lonely, and so depressing. There's no explaining just how suffocating these 2 feelings are there. And there's panic. Knowing no matter what you do or say, this is where you stay, eternally. No talking your way out, no getting out for good behaviour. I went into a full blown panic attack. It's hard to explain how something so simple could be so very horrible. The weird thing is, I had never heard anyone describe hell like this, but a few months after seeing this, a fella I had never met before was describing what happened when he died (in a fire, he's still horribly marred by it on half his face and body), and he saw exactly the same thing, same feelings, same difficulty describing those feelings, everything precisely the same..
It's a lot like here..I could control my perception. On the street I could see the homes, but once I was on one of the properties, it was green as far as I could see, an open feild with a few bushes and the one house. I could feel the next property was close, but couldn't see it. There was also a fella there who had these perfectly round little marbles. They were balls of amber, a very pale coloured amber, and encapsulated in the middle were these gorgeous perfect little flowers..There was more, but it's so much..Hell, on the other hand, was nothing. Literally..just blackness. I could sense there were walls and they were close, but I also just knew that I could go forever and never touch a wall. There was nobody, no things, and I had no body..Just my thoughts and memories. You think you understand what eternity is, but once there, you really fully grasp it. It was soooo lonely, and so depressing. There's no explaining just how suffocating these 2 feelings are there. And there's panic. Knowing no matter what you do or say, this is where you stay, eternally. No talking your way out, no getting out for good behaviour. I went into a full blown panic attack. It's hard to explain how something so simple could be so very horrible. The weird thing is, I had never heard anyone describe hell like this, but a few months after seeing this, a fella I had never met before was describing what happened when he died (in a fire, he's still horribly marred by it on half his face and body), and he saw exactly the same thing, same feelings, same difficulty describing those feelings, everything precisely the same..
I'm pretty good with myself and my own thoughts and memories. Doesn't sound too bad.
LoL...you know, I have wondered if there was an after-afterlife..seems like there should be with what I've seen :?
All I know is I can't wait to get to the first afterlife, cos it's a lovely place to be. And seeing how I actually cried when I accidentally stepped on, and consequently killed, a little lizard, I am obviously not the kind in the habit of intentionally hurting others, so I'm pretty sure I'm safe from being sent to hell...
I don't see why creationism and evolution can't co-exist. Personally I go by what I've been shown, not by what a priest or bible tells me. You gotta be stupid if you don't believe in evolution...but before the big bang, what was there? And how did it come to be?
Thank you ...
If you read my original post
I asked the questions to try grasp the why because I have seen it many times...
'don't pray for me'
and I don't understand it when someones motives are loving.
They are not forcing anything on the atheist just showing love the way they know how.
As in the 1 and 2 Paul David explains which I agree with, we are speaking of genuine #1
You have projected on me what you think my motives are, my tone and manner
judging where I am coming from in a negative way
And now I am more confused because you say you do not dislike prayer etc...
'but just don't do it for me I do not want it or need it.'
But if this is how some one shows love should we not accept that?
Out of respect for another human being.
Not much different then my "no problem" encounters
I accept the "no problem" reply to my thank you although
I find it rather offensive...not loving like 'you're welcome'
an atheist could accept "you are in my thoughts and prayers"?
as a kind gesture given...because that is the way it was intended.
But if an atheist does not see it as kind then they are bound to be offended,
so perhaps it is how we perceive the gesture....
and the words we write here
as much as I believe your heart is in the right place, Pandora, and your stance is love rather than recruitment, I have to explain my own personal experience with this sort of thing.
My brother became born again christian back in our 20's, and it was very weird to be around him and his g/f (now wife). It always came across as condescending, even though he honestly thought he was doing good, spreading the message, if you will. But people around him felt uncomfortable, talked down to, etc. My parents (also church-goers at the time) eventually had to sit him down and tell him to shut his mouth, as it was causing issues at family gatherings.
He significantly toned it down over time, and our relationship is good again. But a theist shouldn't assume that just because your intentions are pure and good that your message is still expected to be received with open arms.
I think it also comes from a very out dated ideal in our world; that everyone believes in god. Because, in our not too distant past, it was just expected that you did. Everyone went to church on Sunday. If you didn't believe in God, you didn't say so. You didn't ask. But nowadays, things are very different. And it can sometimes come across as arrogant that a christian just assumes that someone would be accepting of their message.
Religion is a very personal thing, and no matter if it's simply a "god bless you" after sneezing (we all remember that thread), or holding a cross up and saying "I shall pray for your soul to turn from eternal damnation", it's all the same to some.
Just like hugs are great, and pure, and lovely, and comforting. But not everyone likes them. And they may have a very good reason for that. And that should be respected.
As far as hugs compared to 'my thoughts and prayers are with you ', for me two entirely different things
not even the same ballpark.
Physical contact it the greatest degree of intimacy we have..the other is a well wishing.
Hugs are in your face and in your space thing, very much intimate usually between people who know each other.
'My thoughts and prayers are with you' ,they are words just like my experience time and again with the response 'no problem' to a thank you.
They are words a gesture meant to be polite and caring and should be respected by the receiver as just that.
The theist in the case of # 1 as you put and you say my heart is in the right place, as many are,
then by not accepting the loving gesture they are not accepting the love
I have to give because they don't believe in God.
Can they not separate the two and see the love intended for them?
I was an atheist as a young girl till I was in my 30's and then well I changed my mind.
My point, I don't remember being offended by what others. by what believers said
and if they tried to share their beliefs... I listened.
My feeling is give... if you happen upon another human being who wants to share
and love.... take it and give back.
Respect their beliefs for the right they have to have them and share it.
It doesn't mean you change your mind but you may form a human bond that wasn't there before.
And that is far more important than any religion or otherwise.
I don't see why creationism and evolution can't co-exist. Personally I go by what I've been shown, not by what a priest or bible tells me. You gotta be stupid if you don't believe in evolution...but before the big bang, what was there? And how did it come to be?
no matter if it's simply a "god bless you" after sneezing (we all remember that thread),
not trying to divert the subject, but I did not see this thread, and had a conversation with a friend recently about this same thing. I hadn't ever really thought about it; I've always just said 'bless you' (no 'god') when somebody sneezes, without literally thinking of blessing their souls or anything religious or the like. What was the consensus on what is 'politically correct'?
LoL...you know, I have wondered if there was an after-afterlife..seems like there should be with what I've seen :?
All I know is I can't wait to get to the first afterlife, cos it's a lovely place to be. And seeing how I actually cried when I accidentally stepped on, and consequently killed, a little lizard, I am obviously not the kind in the habit of intentionally hurting others, so I'm pretty sure I'm safe from being sent to hell...
I don't see why creationism and evolution can't co-exist. Personally I go by what I've been shown, not by what a priest or bible tells me. You gotta be stupid if you don't believe in evolution...but before the big bang, what was there? And how did it come to be?
If everything has to have a cause, god does, too. So what was before god, and who made the thing that made god, and so on?
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
no matter if it's simply a "god bless you" after sneezing (we all remember that thread),
not trying to divert the subject, but I did not see this thread, and had a conversation with a friend recently about this same thing. I hadn't ever really thought about it; I've always just said 'bless you' (no 'god') when somebody sneezes, without literally thinking of blessing their souls or anything religious or the like. What was the consensus on what is 'politically correct'?
It was my thread. My original question in the thread was about saying excuse me after I sneeze. I discovered I'm a rude slob. My question was not about blessing someone but that came up in the thead: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=148739&hilit=+sneeze
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no matter if it's simply a "god bless you" after sneezing (we all remember that thread),
not trying to divert the subject, but I did not see this thread, and had a conversation with a friend recently about this same thing. I hadn't ever really thought about it; I've always just said 'bless you' (no 'god') when somebody sneezes, without literally thinking of blessing their souls or anything religious or the like. What was the consensus on what is 'politically correct'?
It was my thread. My original question in the thread was about saying excuse me after I sneeze. I discovered I'm a rude slob. My question was not about blessing someone but that came up in the thead: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=148739&hilit=+sneeze
[/quote][/quote]
Thanks. I just glanced through it. Apparently it offends the shit out of some people even though it may not be meant with any religious or spiritual connotations---not surprising. I guess the best thing to do if someone sneezes is ignore it, or ask if they would be offended if I say 'bless you' instead of 'excuse you' or some other rude thing before I say it.. in which case I would say the hell with it because it doesn't mean enough to me to get into a whole long schpeel about how it's offensive. Good grief!
My feeling is give... if you happen upon another human being who wants to share
and love.... take it and give back.
Respect their beliefs for the right they have to have them and share it.
It doesn't mean you change your mind but you may form a human bond that wasn't there before.
And that is far more important than any religion or otherwise.
I understand several of your points, Pandora, and that you are coming from a good place when offering prayers. However, I also see the other side, because I have been in similar situations where I have felt pushed or crowded. Overall, I think it's best to just say 'my thoughts are with you' and give a hug in cases where you don't know the other person's particular beliefs. Probably saves frustration and misinterpretations. If you feel the need to, do the prayer part in private. :thumbup:
My feeling is give... if you happen upon another human being who wants to share
and love.... take it and give back.
Respect their beliefs for the right they have to have them and share it.
It doesn't mean you change your mind but you may form a human bond that wasn't there before.
And that is far more important than any religion or otherwise.
I understand several of your points, Pandora, and that you are coming from a good place when offering prayers. However, I also see the other side, because I have been in similar situations where I have felt pushed or crowded. Overall, I think it's best to just say 'my thoughts are with you' and give a hug in cases where you don't know the other person's particular beliefs. Probably saves frustration and misinterpretations. If you feel the need to, do the prayer part in private. :thumbup:
I will continue to beg to differ on this point.
My personal belief is nonbelievers should attempt to feel the love
that comes their way even when associated with another's belief system,
even if it comes with God.
I do the same if approached by a religious person.
I respect their religion, their right to it and will listen to their words, although
I do not believe as they do.
Just as I listen to atheists scientific beliefs and thoughts on why God does not exist to them.
We owe it to each other to listen, embrace and try to bond whatever ones beliefs are.
If I show my love by saying I will pray it is up to the atheist to decide if he will embrace my gesture based in love or not but can still remain gracious and respectful.
I do not think it is crowding nor pushing to offer a 'my thoughts and prayers are with you' when I am being sincere and loving. I am not asking them to believe, I am showing my love.
And when I am out and I say thank you and a person responds.... 'no problem' :?
I will not jump on them nor be offended for their lack of politeness.
I will accept the phrase as it was offered because I get where they are coming from.
And that is the point .... can we not get where each other are coming from?
be kind and loving and accepting and above all lenient with each other
while listening to each others words.
I do not think it is crowding nor pushing to offer a 'my thoughts and prayers are with you' when I am being sincere and loving. I am not asking them to believe, I am showing my love.
I see what your'e saying Pandora.. and I know you are not doing this, but more times than not, when I have had people tell me they are praying for me, it has double meaning. By that I mean, they are extending love, but they are also sneaking it in that they are praying for my soul to 'understand or 'get' their god/religion, and that one day, I might be 'enlightened' through their praying.
But like I said, I know your extending prayers is not two sided, its all about love from you.
But if you say that 'my prayers are with you' to someone who doesnt know you that well, you risk them misunderstanding.
I dont think you should stop though, I just think you shouldnt be surprised when someone isnt open to it because they are used to the latter.
its just difficult to grasp what an individuals way of receiving that phrase might be, depending on their personal beliefs and their previous encounters.
Personally I think all the PC nonsense is ridiculous. I'd take it if you say you're praying for me Pandora, cause I know what you mean. But I did say earlier that I could care less about the person (back a few dozen pages)who said they'd be praying for me because I was a non believer.
I do not think it is crowding nor pushing to offer a 'my thoughts and prayers are with you' when I am being sincere and loving. I am not asking them to believe, I am showing my love.
I see what your'e saying Pandora.. and I know you are not doing this, but more times than not, when I have had people tell me they are praying for me, it has double meaning. By that I mean, they are extending love, but they are also sneaking it in that they are praying for my soul to 'understand or 'get' their god/religion, and that one day, I might be 'enlightened' through their praying.
But like I said, I know your extending prayers is not two sided, its all about love from you.
But if you say that 'my prayers are with you' to someone who doesnt know you that well, you risk them misunderstanding.
I dont think you should stop though, I just think you shouldnt be surprised when someone isnt open to it because they are used to the latter.
its just difficult to grasp what an individuals way of receiving that phrase might be, depending on their personal beliefs and their previous encounters.
Personally I think all the PC nonsense is ridiculous. I'd take it if you say you're praying for me Pandora, cause I know what you mean. But I did say earlier that I could care less about the person (back a few dozen pages)who said they'd be praying for me because I was a non believer.
Dude, I'll tell you what, I tell people all the time, friends, family, people/strangers I interact with, if they sneeze, if someones in trouble, or sad or whatever, I say "I'm sending you good vibes, get better soon" or something like that, They love it, they are like "really? thanks!" but the second someone say's I'll pray for you" they freak out, arms in the air "pray for what? what, god? what..I don't believe"
it's all the same thing, positive prayer is positive energy/vibes, good vibes are positive energy/vibes. It's like All energy based.
it's all the same thing, positive prayer is positive energy/vibes, good vibes are positive energy/vibes. It's like All energy based.
no it's not the same thing.
with prayer there's god attached.
send me good energy without YOUR god.
prayer to me is attached to religion. and any religion puts my panties in a bunch. lol! so leave it out and send me good vibes.
*~Pearl Jam will be blasted from speakers until morale improves~*
I do not think it is crowding nor pushing to offer a 'my thoughts and prayers are with you' when I am being sincere and loving. I am not asking them to believe, I am showing my love.
I see what your'e saying Pandora.. and I know you are not doing this, but more times than not, when I have had people tell me they are praying for me, it has double meaning. By that I mean, they are extending love, but they are also sneaking it in that they are praying for my soul to 'understand or 'get' their god/religion, and that one day, I might be 'enlightened' through their praying.
But like I said, I know your extending prayers is not two sided, its all about love from you.
But if you say that 'my prayers are with you' to someone who doesnt know you that well, you risk them misunderstanding.
I dont think you should stop though, I just think you shouldnt be surprised when someone isnt open to it because they are used to the latter.
its just difficult to grasp what an individuals way of receiving that phrase might be, depending on their personal beliefs and their previous encounters.
Personally I think all the PC nonsense is ridiculous. I'd take it if you say you're praying for me Pandora, cause I know what you mean. But I did say earlier that I could care less about the person (back a few dozen pages)who said they'd be praying for me because I was a non believer.
And I agree I see the sides but both sides can work together
I feel this way ....
it is up to the receiver how he will perceive people in general..their gestures, their opinions, their love.
and we can not be responsible for how we will be perceived and will always run the risk of being misunderstood
But we can work towards a loving situation
One should not offer love with an alterior motive,
so if a believer is saying they will pray for someone with the thought of saving them,
this is an insult to them and is not received as a sincere loving gesture.
A loving gesture has no requirements...it is giving....it is pure and it feels this way in your heart
If an atheist flatly says 'don't pray for me' they are turning away a loving gesture
and that is insulting to the one giving,
so discerning they can be and respectful of another's love even if it is based in faith.
I am hoping for more understanding on both sides.
That loving gestures of faith can be ok for an atheist because they see it is sent with love not sent with a motive to change them.
And that believers will not attempt to use prayer as a weapon or catalyst for a need for change,
that their faith is based in love to give....to give only.
It matters not what and who we believe in as long as we believe in each other and love each other
and show we love each other.
Love is contagious, as is hope and being positive, the more we give the more we will get.
I do the same if approached by a religious person.
I respect their religion, their right to it and will listen to their words, although
I do not believe as they do.
--So do I, but not everyone feels that way. (and I can also get to a point where enough is enough, depending on the attitude of the person talking to me)
I do not think it is crowding nor pushing to offer a 'my thoughts and prayers are with you' when I am being sincere and loving. I am not asking them to believe, I am showing my love.
--I didn't mean I felt crowded or pushed in this particular context (someone saying they would pray for me--in terms of if something was going on with me, and they meant good thoughts--that's cool)...but I have felt pushed or crowded in other areas of religious discussion in the past (people with beliefs different from my own who felt it their 'duty' to 'make me see the light'--not cool)....and I think the latter is how people who don't believe in 'prayer' to a god take someone saying 'I'll pray for you'. Respect is sort of a two-way street in that way.
And that is the point .... can we not get where each other are coming from?
be kind and loving and accepting and above all lenient with each other
while listening to each others words.
--to a certain extent, yes. Everyone has a different limit.
(my other responses in the above box--trouble with the quote embed thing. arrgghh.
I do the same if approached by a religious person.
I respect their religion, their right to it and will listen to their words, although
I do not believe as they do.
--So do I, but not everyone feels that way. (and I can also get to a point where enough is enough, depending on the attitude of the person talking to me)
I do not think it is crowding nor pushing to offer a 'my thoughts and prayers are with you' when I am being sincere and loving. I am not asking them to believe, I am showing my love.
--I didn't mean I felt crowded or pushed in this particular context (someone saying they would pray for me--in terms of if something was going on with me, and they meant good thoughts--that's cool)...but I have felt pushed or crowded in other areas of religious discussion in the past (people with beliefs different from my own who felt it their 'duty' to 'make me see the light'--not cool)....and I think the latter is how people who don't believe in 'prayer' to a god take someone saying 'I'll pray for you'. Respect is sort of a two-way street in that way.
And that is the point .... can we not get where each other are coming from?
be kind and loving and accepting and above all lenient with each other
while listening to each others words.
--to a certain extent, yes. Everyone has a different limit.
(my other responses in the above box--trouble with the quote embed thing. arrgghh.
perhaps my post to Jon above might clarify and both sides need to show respect and love
it is the only way to happiness
it's all the same thing, positive prayer is positive energy/vibes, good vibes are positive energy/vibes. It's like All energy based.
no it's not the same thing.
with prayer there's god attached.
send me good energy without YOUR god.
prayer to me is attached to religion. and any religion puts my panties in a bunch. lol! so leave it out and send me good vibes.
Well what I'm saying is prayer is energy, so are vibes, of course we should take into account intentions, as it's potential energy also.
Jump back to my previous posts regarding energy and consciousness. We should also take a good look at lucid dreaming and understanding, realization of reality and what is.
perhaps my post to Jon above might clarify and both sides need to show respect and love
it is the only way to happiness
yes, I just saw that as I was typing my last post when it was posted...that makes more sense. although, unfortunately, I think it's a bit idealistic. :( If everyone felt that way, it would be great. Especially for the unaccepting/disinterested receiver in that case. I understand what you mean that it's about how the receiver perceives it, but if you know how x receiver feels, and you do it anyway, it's antagonistic.
perhaps my post to Jon above might clarify and both sides need to show respect and love
it is the only way to happiness
yes, I just saw that as I was typing my last post when it was posted...that makes more sense. although, unfortunately, I think it's a bit idealistic. :( If everyone felt that way, it would be great. Especially for the unaccepting/disinterested receiver in that case. I understand what you mean that it's about how the receiver perceives it, but if you know how x receiver feels, and you do it anyway, it's antagonistic.
if the receiver knows I send my thoughts and prayers to them based in love and not wishing them to believe nor change in any way and they will not except my love that is disrespectful.
perhaps my post to Jon above might clarify and both sides need to show respect and love
it is the only way to happiness
yes, I just saw that as I was typing my last post when it was posted...that makes more sense. although, unfortunately, I think it's a bit idealistic. :( If everyone felt that way, it would be great. Especially for the unaccepting/disinterested receiver in that case. I understand what you mean that it's about how the receiver perceives it, but if you know how x receiver feels, and you do it anyway, it's antagonistic.
if the receiver knows I send my thoughts and prayers to them based in love and not wishing them to believe nor change in any way and they will not except my love that is disrespectful.
As is you insisting to send your prayers knowing that they are not 'welcome'. You say it's love, the receiver may not see it that way. If you know it, why insist?
rather than quote everything Paul David wrote, i'd like to say i'm really glad he shared that. i've experienced those kind of situations. it's overbearing. "Let it be."
*~Pearl Jam will be blasted from speakers until morale improves~*
yes, I just saw that as I was typing my last post when it was posted...that makes more sense. although, unfortunately, I think it's a bit idealistic. :( If everyone felt that way, it would be great. Especially for the unaccepting/disinterested receiver in that case. I understand what you mean that it's about how the receiver perceives it, but if you know how x receiver feels, and you do it anyway, it's antagonistic.
if the receiver knows I send my thoughts and prayers to them based in love and not wishing them to believe nor change in any way and they will not except my love that is disrespectful.
As is you insisting to send your prayers knowing that they are not 'welcome'. You say it's love, the receiver may not see it that way. If you know it, why insist?
Why must I change my heart because someone perceives me wrong?
I am assuming you think when someone says you are in my thoughts and prayers
or I will pray for you
that there is a alterior motive or a hope to change the atheist.
This is not the case always
if you look in the heart of the sender and not prejudge.
love is love
It is given sincerely, not attempting to change nor find fault with the receiver
it is pure love as I have stated in other posts.
Why would any one not want to receive love?
As I said it takes both sides ....if only people will try
ok. i'll admit. i associate prayer with god. so that's my personal problem.
Positive vibes at work, j/k
You know, with so much greed and corruption in this world, from corporations, companies, governments, law enforcement, religious leaders all so much bad energies, and when the truth that sits within all of us sees such corruption and lies, we turn away from it.
The truth you know inside is what's making you turn away from religion, as it should I guess, religion is covered with lies and corruption, made by mans greed and ego.
But the key is to take away that ego, find the nature of man, that is a path worth moving towards, see how deep the rabbit hole goes.
When we see commercials and news on the TV, they are not just selling a product, or just reporting news, they are controlling the population, everything they build around us is used to control the people. They create so called options, then breed people into thinking that is 'real choice', the system is built to suppress the truth, the reality.
All these institutions that we help support are all aimed at taking away what we are, these companies, governments and all in between them are guilty of this. They have turned the people into products, and each company trading human products to one another,
Comments
Ok. What did you see?
"With our thoughts we make the world"
my guess is "indescribable".
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
my guesses
white light, dark tunnel, stock standard response
life flashing before your eyes, feeling of deep regret that this is it
Rod Laver Arena - Nov 13, 2006
Adelaide Oval - Nov 17, 2009
Etihad Stadium - Nov 20, 2009
BDO Melbourne - Jan 24, 2014
New York - May 02 - 2016
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as much as I believe your heart is in the right place, Pandora, and your stance is love rather than recruitment, I have to explain my own personal experience with this sort of thing.
My brother became born again christian back in our 20's, and it was very weird to be around him and his g/f (now wife). It always came across as condescending, even though he honestly thought he was doing good, spreading the message, if you will. But people around him felt uncomfortable, talked down to, etc. My parents (also church-goers at the time) eventually had to sit him down and tell him to shut his mouth, as it was causing issues at family gatherings.
He significantly toned it down over time, and our relationship is good again. But a theist shouldn't assume that just because your intentions are pure and good that your message is still expected to be received with open arms.
I think it also comes from a very out dated ideal in our world; that everyone believes in god. Because, in our not too distant past, it was just expected that you did. Everyone went to church on Sunday. If you didn't believe in God, you didn't say so. You didn't ask. But nowadays, things are very different. And it can sometimes come across as arrogant that a christian just assumes that someone would be accepting of their message.
Religion is a very personal thing, and no matter if it's simply a "god bless you" after sneezing (we all remember that thread), or holding a cross up and saying "I shall pray for your soul to turn from eternal damnation", it's all the same to some.
Just like hugs are great, and pure, and lovely, and comforting. But not everyone likes them. And they may have a very good reason for that. And that should be respected.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Nice even on the afterlife there will be atheists, we could keep discussing how improbable the after-after-life...
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
I'm pretty good with myself and my own thoughts and memories. Doesn't sound too bad.
Plus no body, so no more aches and pains.
All I know is I can't wait to get to the first afterlife, cos it's a lovely place to be. And seeing how I actually cried when I accidentally stepped on, and consequently killed, a little lizard, I am obviously not the kind in the habit of intentionally hurting others, so I'm pretty sure I'm safe from being sent to hell...
I don't see why creationism and evolution can't co-exist. Personally I go by what I've been shown, not by what a priest or bible tells me. You gotta be stupid if you don't believe in evolution...but before the big bang, what was there? And how did it come to be?
not even the same ballpark.
Physical contact it the greatest degree of intimacy we have..the other is a well wishing.
Hugs are in your face and in your space thing, very much intimate usually between people who know each other.
'My thoughts and prayers are with you' ,they are words just like my experience time and again with the response 'no problem' to a thank you.
They are words a gesture meant to be polite and caring and should be respected by the receiver as just that.
The theist in the case of # 1 as you put and you say my heart is in the right place, as many are,
then by not accepting the loving gesture they are not accepting the love
I have to give because they don't believe in God.
Can they not separate the two and see the love intended for them?
I was an atheist as a young girl till I was in my 30's and then well I changed my mind.
My point, I don't remember being offended by what others. by what believers said
and if they tried to share their beliefs... I listened.
My feeling is give... if you happen upon another human being who wants to share
and love.... take it and give back.
Respect their beliefs for the right they have to have them and share it.
It doesn't mean you change your mind but you may form a human bond that wasn't there before.
And that is far more important than any religion or otherwise.
:thumbup:
If everything has to have a cause, god does, too. So what was before god, and who made the thing that made god, and so on?
"With our thoughts we make the world"
It was my thread. My original question in the thread was about saying excuse me after I sneeze. I discovered I'm a rude slob. My question was not about blessing someone but that came up in the thead:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=148739&hilit=+sneeze
8/08 - Ed solo in DC, 6/09 Ed in B'more,
10/10 - Brad in B'more
I understand several of your points, Pandora, and that you are coming from a good place when offering prayers. However, I also see the other side, because I have been in similar situations where I have felt pushed or crowded. Overall, I think it's best to just say 'my thoughts are with you' and give a hug in cases where you don't know the other person's particular beliefs. Probably saves frustration and misinterpretations. If you feel the need to, do the prayer part in private. :thumbup:
My personal belief is nonbelievers should attempt to feel the love
that comes their way even when associated with another's belief system,
even if it comes with God.
I do the same if approached by a religious person.
I respect their religion, their right to it and will listen to their words, although
I do not believe as they do.
Just as I listen to atheists scientific beliefs and thoughts on why God does not exist to them.
We owe it to each other to listen, embrace and try to bond whatever ones beliefs are.
If I show my love by saying I will pray it is up to the atheist to decide if he will embrace my gesture based in love or not but can still remain gracious and respectful.
I do not think it is crowding nor pushing to offer a 'my thoughts and prayers are with you' when I am being sincere and loving. I am not asking them to believe, I am showing my love.
And when I am out and I say thank you and a person responds.... 'no problem' :?
I will not jump on them nor be offended for their lack of politeness.
I will accept the phrase as it was offered because I get where they are coming from.
And that is the point .... can we not get where each other are coming from?
be kind and loving and accepting and above all lenient with each other
while listening to each others words.
I see what your'e saying Pandora.. and I know you are not doing this, but more times than not, when I have had people tell me they are praying for me, it has double meaning. By that I mean, they are extending love, but they are also sneaking it in that they are praying for my soul to 'understand or 'get' their god/religion, and that one day, I might be 'enlightened' through their praying.
But like I said, I know your extending prayers is not two sided, its all about love from you.
But if you say that 'my prayers are with you' to someone who doesnt know you that well, you risk them misunderstanding.
I dont think you should stop though, I just think you shouldnt be surprised when someone isnt open to it because they are used to the latter.
its just difficult to grasp what an individuals way of receiving that phrase might be, depending on their personal beliefs and their previous encounters.
Personally I think all the PC nonsense is ridiculous. I'd take it if you say you're praying for me Pandora, cause I know what you mean. But I did say earlier that I could care less about the person (back a few dozen pages)who said they'd be praying for me because I was a non believer.
Dude, I'll tell you what, I tell people all the time, friends, family, people/strangers I interact with, if they sneeze, if someones in trouble, or sad or whatever, I say "I'm sending you good vibes, get better soon" or something like that, They love it, they are like "really? thanks!" but the second someone say's I'll pray for you" they freak out, arms in the air "pray for what? what, god? what..I don't believe"
it's all the same thing, positive prayer is positive energy/vibes, good vibes are positive energy/vibes. It's like All energy based.
no it's not the same thing.
with prayer there's god attached.
send me good energy without YOUR god.
prayer to me is attached to religion. and any religion puts my panties in a bunch. lol! so leave it out and send me good vibes.
I feel this way ....
it is up to the receiver how he will perceive people in general..their gestures, their opinions, their love.
and we can not be responsible for how we will be perceived and will always run the risk of being misunderstood
But we can work towards a loving situation
One should not offer love with an alterior motive,
so if a believer is saying they will pray for someone with the thought of saving them,
this is an insult to them and is not received as a sincere loving gesture.
A loving gesture has no requirements...it is giving....it is pure and it feels this way in your heart
If an atheist flatly says 'don't pray for me' they are turning away a loving gesture
and that is insulting to the one giving,
so discerning they can be and respectful of another's love even if it is based in faith.
I am hoping for more understanding on both sides.
That loving gestures of faith can be ok for an atheist because they see it is sent with love not sent with a motive to change them.
And that believers will not attempt to use prayer as a weapon or catalyst for a need for change,
that their faith is based in love to give....to give only.
It matters not what and who we believe in as long as we believe in each other and love each other
and show we love each other.
Love is contagious, as is hope and being positive, the more we give the more we will get.
(my other responses in the above box--trouble with the quote embed thing. arrgghh.
it is the only way to happiness
Well what I'm saying is prayer is energy, so are vibes, of course we should take into account intentions, as it's potential energy also.
Jump back to my previous posts regarding energy and consciousness. We should also take a good look at lucid dreaming and understanding, realization of reality and what is.
As is you insisting to send your prayers knowing that they are not 'welcome'. You say it's love, the receiver may not see it that way. If you know it, why insist?
Why must I change my heart because someone perceives me wrong?
I am assuming you think when someone says you are in my thoughts and prayers
or I will pray for you
that there is a alterior motive or a hope to change the atheist.
This is not the case always
if you look in the heart of the sender and not prejudge.
love is love
It is given sincerely, not attempting to change nor find fault with the receiver
it is pure love as I have stated in other posts.
Why would any one not want to receive love?
As I said it takes both sides ....if only people will try
Positive vibes at work,
You know, with so much greed and corruption in this world, from corporations, companies, governments, law enforcement, religious leaders all so much bad energies, and when the truth that sits within all of us sees such corruption and lies, we turn away from it.
The truth you know inside is what's making you turn away from religion, as it should I guess, religion is covered with lies and corruption, made by mans greed and ego.
But the key is to take away that ego, find the nature of man, that is a path worth moving towards, see how deep the rabbit hole goes.
When we see commercials and news on the TV, they are not just selling a product, or just reporting news, they are controlling the population, everything they build around us is used to control the people. They create so called options, then breed people into thinking that is 'real choice', the system is built to suppress the truth, the reality.
All these institutions that we help support are all aimed at taking away what we are, these companies, governments and all in between them are guilty of this. They have turned the people into products, and each company trading human products to one another,