What is the minimum income requirement for having sex?

Blockhead

justam wrote:

You seem to be assuming that every PERSON who is on welfare is a bad egg and not a person. You are generalizing about their actions, about their motives, about their situations.

You are de-humanizing them.

I don't like that. I don't think you're right to do that. Sometimes people need help. Maybe there ARE people abusing the system, but there are also probably people who are good people that just need help.

For me, as a caring person, I'd rather help a few people who don't "deserve" it rather than leave no options for a few other people who are genuinely in need of assistance.

It's a matter of caring for other human beings.

Why do you think its helping poor people to just give them money and reward them for continually having children???
You sound like a parent who wants to be their childrens "friend" instead of actually being a parent.
If the gov. wants to continually run welfare as a sucessful opeartion to help and aid people they need to act as "parents" and give them some regulations.

GTFLYGIRL

HeidiJam wrote:

Get a fucking brain.

All those kids that your wife works with... you know their families?

So strange... That is just unusual.... It must be your winning personality that has allowed the school to let you meet and get to know your wife's student's families... Funny... that side of you doesnt really come across on this board...

It appears to me that you're a hard, cold ignorant man... GOOD LUCK.

catefrances

HeidiJam wrote:

What I don't understand is how is it acceptable to FORCE me to pay into the welfare system because its good for society. But its not acceptable to put regulations on people who are not putting into any system to benefit society yet are taking from the same programs.

wow. that must suck for you. :roll:

its a bummer to be forced to pay into a system that takes that money and uses it to build up the military industrial complex... do you have a problem with that i wonder. i certainly do. but i also know those taxes go to pay for health and education and the infrastructure of my country, not to mention foreign aid... so i suck it up and leave it to my government... my democratically elected government to divide up the money accordingly. if you dont like some of your taxes going to people in need then by all means feel free to opt out of the system and refuse to pay taxes til you get a guarantee that your government isnt gonna waste it on the needy.

FiveB247x

That's your proof? Also, do you think every city is exactly just like yours or everyone is exactly the same elsewhere? Kind of a overstated misnomer, no? Also, should we all just make assumptions and wide sweeping generalizations based on an extremely small sampling of personal interactions or examples? And just for a point of reference, this is exactly how racists and stereotypes are spread - not exactly a beacon of morality, intellect or something redeeming to pass along to others in society. But I guess it's just easier to categorize and simplify - poor people got poor on their own laziness and mooch on the rest of society, and they all cheat the system and steal your money. Why not also add other stereotypes.. pretty soon you can wear your sheets and claim your cleaning up the nation for the good too.

By the way, thought I'd share this with you because don't seem to care about or see out data or facts. If I recall, the area you call home is Cincinnati which is the basis of your "experience" and argument. It's listed here as the 8th poorest major city (over 250,000 people) in the nation. So basically, you're basing your opinion on an extremely elevated data pool, and certainly no where near the average or norm for our nation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_poorest_places_in_the_United_States#Large_cities_with_a_high_percent_of_low_income_residents

HeidiJam wrote:

Yes, I do know alot of people on welfare, as my wife works as a teacher in the inner city who has 85% free and reduced lunch (reduced lunch prices are 3 cents) 100% free breakfast /dinner.
over 30% get power packs which are backpacks that are six meals for the weekends. There are all bought and paid for by who??? you guess it, Tax Payers... Not the parents who should be feeding their own fucking kids.
http://www.whec.com/news/stories/S1082607.shtml?cat=572
Heres your link to my generalization :roll: of people buying x-box's with their childrens fucking school money.
THe only way people learn is by being responsible/consequences.
But your right lets just keep rewarding them for being poor and having children, as its greatly benefiting society.
Get a fucking brain.

Byrnzie

HeidiJam wrote:

Yes, I do know alot of people on welfare, as my wife works as a teacher in the inner city who has 85% free and reduced lunch (reduced lunch prices are 3 cents) 100% free breakfast /dinner.
over 30% get power packs which are backpacks that are six meals for the weekends. There are all bought and paid for by who??? you guess it, Tax Payers... Not the parents who should be feeding their own fucking kids.
http://www.whec.com/news/stories/S1082607.shtml?cat=572
Heres your link to my generalization :roll: of people buying x-box's with their childrens fucking school money.
THe only way people learn is by being responsible/consequences.
But your right lets just keep rewarding them for being poor and having children, as its greatly benefiting society.
Get a fucking brain.

Since when did a flat screen t.v cost just $200?

You'd need to have at least 5 kids in order to get enough money to buy a flat screen t.v, no?

_

HeidiJam wrote:

What I don't understand is how is it acceptable to FORCE me to pay into the welfare system because its good for society. But its not acceptable to put regulations on people who are not putting into any system to benefit society yet are taking from the same programs.

I don't understand why you keep saying that no one on welfare has contributed or will contribute to the system. That's just blatantly false.

I also don't understand why you don't get that you are part of society and therefore something that is good for society is also good for you. What's wrong with doing things that are good for society? Where's your sense of social responsibility? Regardless, you have to pay into this system because you might someday have to use it.

I also don't understand, by your logic, why I should have to pay into the education system that educates your kids & pays you wife, since I don't have kids.

And I don't understand why you think it's okay for the working poor to subsidize your way of life without you having to pay what you owe for the work they provide.

Furthermore, I don't understand why you want to punish & starve innocent children for the "sins" of their parents.

:?

_

Byrnzie wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

Yes, I do know alot of people on welfare, as my wife works as a teacher in the inner city who has 85% free and reduced lunch (reduced lunch prices are 3 cents) 100% free breakfast /dinner.
over 30% get power packs which are backpacks that are six meals for the weekends. There are all bought and paid for by who??? you guess it, Tax Payers... Not the parents who should be feeding their own fucking kids.
http://www.whec.com/news/stories/S1082607.shtml?cat=572
Heres your link to my generalization :roll: of people buying x-box's with their childrens fucking school money.
THe only way people learn is by being responsible/consequences.
But your right lets just keep rewarding them for being poor and having children, as its greatly benefiting society.
Get a fucking brain.

Since when did a flat screen t.v cost just $200?

You'd need to have at least 5 kids in order to get enough money to buy a flat screen t.v, no?

And never feed or clothe them.

_

pandora wrote:

Some people respect others, your rant proves you do not.

Just like the grudge you carry from the smoking thread when you ranted at me.

I use the term child to my own children and to their friends
as some mothers in their 50's would do also, this commonplace for me.

I don't bait anyone but many of your posts and threads appear to.

I have never spoken to a mod except when I posted a pic and got a pm and helped with an apology cause of trademark issues. Why would you think I would do something like that? Tattletail I have never been.

So you would rather I not answer any of your threads? When I have an opinion?
I'm not sure about that. But we can choose to ignore each other which I sort of thought I was doing til you answered my opinion posts.

I respect everyone - until they prove to me repeatedly that they don't deserve my respect. You lost my respect long before the smoking thread.

Whether or not it is commonplace for you to call everyone children, you do so specifically to offend & condescend to me and I have asked you nicely not to. I'll ask you again now to please stop calling me a child, being condescending, and telling me I can't have an opinion because I don't have children. In fact, I'm asking that you stop doing that to other people as well. Please. Thank you.

Answer my threads if you want to, but please back up what you say with reason instead of personal attacks. "I'm older than you are" is not sound reasoning for why someone is wrong & you are right, and the rest of us don't stoop to that level. I know I expect better from someone who claims to be so wise & mature.

Prince Of Dorkness

Wait... I have sex all the time and I've never been pregnant.

Byrnzie

_ wrote:

I also don't understand, by your logic, why I should have to pay into the education system that educates your kids & pays you wife, since I don't have kids.

And I don't understand why you think it's okay for the working poor to subsidize your way of life without you having to pay what you owe for the work they provide.

Furthermore, I don't understand why you want to punish & starve innocent children for the "sins" of their parents.

pandora

_ wrote:

pandora wrote:

Some people respect others, your rant proves you do not.

Just like the grudge you carry from the smoking thread when you ranted at me.

I use the term child to my own children and to their friends
as some mothers in their 50's would do also, this commonplace for me.

I don't bait anyone but many of your posts and threads appear to.

I have never spoken to a mod except when I posted a pic and got a pm and helped with an apology cause of trademark issues. Why would you think I would do something like that? Tattletail I have never been.

So you would rather I not answer any of your threads? When I have an opinion?
I'm not sure about that. But we can choose to ignore each other which I sort of thought I was doing til you answered my opinion posts.

I respect everyone - until they prove to me repeatedly that they don't deserve my respect. You lost my respect long before the smoking thread.

Whether or not it is commonplace for you to call everyone children, you do so specifically to offend & condescend to me and I have asked you nicely not to. I'll ask you again now to please stop calling me a child, being condescending, and telling me I can't have an opinion because I don't have children. In fact, I'm asking that you stop doing that to other people as well. Please. Thank you.

Answer my threads if you want to, but please back up what you say with reason instead of personal attacks. "I'm older than you are" is not sound reasoning for why someone is wrong & you are right, and the rest of us don't stoop to that level. I know I expect better from someone who claims to be so wise & mature.

The levels you stoop to I will not.
Don't pretend to be so caring when you choose to only be a caring person
to some at certain times when it pleases you. It is not a part time heart.

I don't know what I did to lose your respect...perhaps you are not being quite honest about that...your pm to me about the loss of your Grandma was very congenial.
I feel it was the smoking thread that upset you and I'm sorry that effected you in this way, it was not my intention. And hopefully you can let that go.

In my opinion its good policy to respect everyone...
you don't have to agree and you don't have to like but you should respect others and not be mean to them.

I am not condescending I have explained where child comes from. I don't claim to be anything as far as your wise and mature statement. If people think that about me, wonderful, but I have never said that.

I have also never said anything about not being able to have an opinion because you don't have kids. :?
If there was a thread I'm not remembering that had to do with being a Mom... perhaps you are speaking of this but I don't feel that way in general. I do feel.... walk a mile in my shoes though. I also feel older people have had the years and experience that younger people may not have had.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I don't get excited when they don't agree with me.
I am no longer wound tight.... I have found peace in my life and accept others and pray
for their happiness on their journey. I feel I have the big picture.
The extra years have given me this....I did not have that 20 years ago but thats not to say
others don't.

The only thing that really upsets me is when people swear at me.
I'm old school, not playing the old card there,
but I think it disrespectful to swear at another person and its hurtful.
You have lashed out at me in this way.
It is petty.
I will play the child card here and say I'm very thankful my children don't do that.
Potty mouth is very unattractive.

So we agree to ignore each other then from now on.
Hopefully to be respectful in our posts to everyone.
To live and let live. This is a very good idea.

But on your path keep your ears open..
even those you think you have formed an opinion on,
they may surprise you with some very thoughtful words.

pandora

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

pandora wrote:

Some people respect others, your rant proves you do not.

Funny... that is EXACTLY what i was thinking about YOU....

oh well... keep calling well-educated women in their thirties children... that shows your are so evolved... much like your opinions about people (as in this thread) and your attitudes toward others show how much you respect people.

Ranting and directing profanity is disrespectful... unless you agree thats appropriate behavior...
perhaps you do.
I have pleaded with you in a couple pm's basically on my knees open heart all for naught
so I do know a bit about your lack of respect for others too.

So your words here now are a 'kettle black' thing...


You pick and choose whom to respect yet argue we should respect all people when you do not give the same consideration. You choose who gets your support.



20 years from now, when you are 55 and have kids approaching 30 you will perhaps understand
how I feel. At this point I don't expect understanding from you. It takes very insightful people to understand and to bridge the generation gap.


I am a Mom and you are children to me.
Pretty simple concept.

And again you have no solution to the problems facing our world...only identify a problem and put down others and how they may choose to solve it. I don't find that very evolved. I find that to be just simple finger pointing.

pandora

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

justam wrote:

It's a matter of caring for other human beings.

ABSOLUTELY!

In my opinion requiring something from people is caring. Just like the community service thread some view it as negative when it is a positive.

We do no one favors allowing them to grow up on welfare and have babies at age 15.
To not be able to have a good education, to live in crime ridden neighborhoods and perhaps resort to crime themselves.

We can't take care of the children that are already here let alone all that will be born just this year into a system that is dragging our country down.

What solution have we come up with in this thread to solve the problem?
Or are we just talking back an forth pointing fingers at each other...

Those who claim to have such big hearts, allowing generations on welfare to drain our country.
Against the realists who want clear change and to stop being overtaxed to the point of needing second and third jobs to raise their own children.

There must be a reasonable middle of the road as with everything to solve this problem.

GTFLYGIRL

pandora wrote:

I have pleaded with you in a couple pm's basically on my knees open heart all for naught
so I do know a bit about your lack of respect for others too.

So your words here now are a 'kettle black' thing...

I am a Mom and you are children to me.
Pretty simple concept.

You sent me a PM that was anything but "on your knees with open heart..." :roll: ..... I RESPECTFULLY requested you NOT write to me again.... but DISRESPECTFULLY... you did anyway. I have no desire to have a "relationship" with you whereby you and I PM with each other... If you notice... I RESPECTFULLY never opened your last PM as I was clear in asking you not to keep writing to me... but you were unable to abide by my simple request.

It's not surprising to me that you believe you have any clue how old I am or what my life experiences consist of... yet are so off base... it's par for the course with your assumptions about others... and your condescending remarks....

You just sound silly calling me a child when you have no idea how old I am or what I have lived through... Pretty simple concept.

Jeanwah

I understand the argument here, and Heidijam's position, but solving the problem, rather than argue, may simply be insisting Welfare recipients use protection. I have a friend who has 3 kids, was on welfare, now has a good temporary job, and is a single mother. She's told me that she's considering having another baby in the future! :shock: Personally, I don't advocate for her position since she may have to go back on welfare eventually, and her interests are selfish. But she's trying to get on track; she's back in school and working. That doesn't mean that she'll always be able to financially support her family. But she needs to recognize that getting pregnant again is not looking out for her or her 3 existing kids best interest.

And guys...really.....quit the fucking fighting. Take it elsewhere.

fuck

pandora wrote:

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

justam wrote:

It's a matter of caring for other human beings.

ABSOLUTELY!

In my opinion requiring something from people is caring. Just like the community service thread some view it as negative when it is a positive.

We do no one favors allowing them to grow up on welfare and have babies at age 15.
To not be able to have a good education, to live in crime ridden neighborhoods and perhaps resort to crime themselves.

We can't take care of the children that are already here let alone all that will be born just this year into a system that is dragging our country down.

What solution have we come up with in this thread to solve the problem?
Or are we just talking back an forth pointing fingers at each other...

Those who claim to have such big hearts, allowing generations on welfare to drain our country.
Against the realists who want clear change and to stop being overtaxed to the point of needing second and third jobs to raise their own children.

There must be a reasonable middle of the road as with everything to solve this problem.

A few thoughts:
1. You've made some interestingly provocative statements without attempting to back them up, e.g. "[the welfare] system is dragging our country down." I mean seriously? of all things, like wars/defense spending and corporate bail outs, WELFARE is what drags our country down?? Did you mean something else because this is what I understood.
2. You say we need to stop pointing fingers and come up with solutions, but in the same exact post you pointed fingers by calling this a system that drags the country down, etc, and offered no solutions yourself.
3. You claim you would like to seek a middle road but even the way you present "both sides" is troubling: one side is people who "claim" to have big hearts and have no problem "draining our country." Then you present the "realists" who want "change", etc. Do you not see a problem in how you presented both sides here? if you don't, then you obviously have no place to call for a middle road or compromise. You also seem to completely suggest that those who would like to sympathize with poor families on welfare cannot also want to see some change implemented in the system. With that said, I would argue that such people ARE the realists. They actually consider that there's no way to prevent poor people from having children and living their lives. not only is it not practical, it's morally reprehensible. We need social equity as a first step. Social equity defined in financial terms unfortunately will never come to pass, realistically. But social equity defined in MORAL terms must be a foundation of any society. That is, that we cannot accurately pass judgment on all people especially those less fortunate than others. If a poor family on welfare has children, one thinks that because he or she is more privileged than them that they can judge them and actually advocate against such families having children.

Poverty is an inescapable reality in every country. And it is morally incumbent on all those who are able to help those less privileged than them. On the other hand, maybe instead of you guys bitching about welfare, you can focus your anger on things that are actually draining our country's budget, like defense spending on useless wars. If we actually tried to cut down our military spending as opposed to our social program spending, and start using that money to enhance our economy, create jobs, stop borrowing money and resources and importing products from other countries (read: China), then we'd both be battling poverty and unemployment while still helping those less fortunate. Seems simple enough. But why be angry at our government/military when it's so much easier to take our anger out on poor (usually of minority race) people?

_

pandora wrote:

_ wrote:

pandora wrote:

Some people respect others, your rant proves you do not.

Just like the grudge you carry from the smoking thread when you ranted at me.

I use the term child to my own children and to their friends
as some mothers in their 50's would do also, this commonplace for me.

I don't bait anyone but many of your posts and threads appear to.

I have never spoken to a mod except when I posted a pic and got a pm and helped with an apology cause of trademark issues. Why would you think I would do something like that? Tattletail I have never been.

So you would rather I not answer any of your threads? When I have an opinion?
I'm not sure about that. But we can choose to ignore each other which I sort of thought I was doing til you answered my opinion posts.

I respect everyone - until they prove to me repeatedly that they don't deserve my respect. You lost my respect long before the smoking thread.

Whether or not it is commonplace for you to call everyone children, you do so specifically to offend & condescend to me and I have asked you nicely not to. I'll ask you again now to please stop calling me a child, being condescending, and telling me I can't have an opinion because I don't have children. In fact, I'm asking that you stop doing that to other people as well. Please. Thank you.

Answer my threads if you want to, but please back up what you say with reason instead of personal attacks. "I'm older than you are" is not sound reasoning for why someone is wrong & you are right, and the rest of us don't stoop to that level. I know I expect better from someone who claims to be so wise & mature.

The levels you stoop to I will not.
Don't pretend to be so caring when you choose to only be a caring person
to some at certain times when it pleases you. It is not a part time heart.

I don't know what I did to lose your respect...perhaps you are not being quite honest about that...your pm to me about the loss of your Grandma was very congenial.
I feel it was the smoking thread that upset you and I'm sorry that effected you in this way, it was not my intention. And hopefully you can let that go.

In my opinion its good policy to respect everyone...
you don't have to agree and you don't have to like but you should respect others and not be mean to them.

I am not condescending I have explained where child comes from. I don't claim to be anything as far as your wise and mature statement. If people think that about me, wonderful, but I have never said that.

I have also never said anything about not being able to have an opinion because you don't have kids. :?
If there was a thread I'm not remembering that had to do with being a Mom... perhaps you are speaking of this but I don't feel that way in general. I do feel.... walk a mile in my shoes though. I also feel older people have had the years and experience that younger people may not have had.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I don't get excited when they don't agree with me.
I am no longer wound tight.... I have found peace in my life and accept others and pray
for their happiness on their journey. I feel I have the big picture.
The extra years have given me this....I did not have that 20 years ago but thats not to say
others don't.

The only thing that really upsets me is when people swear at me.
I'm old school, not playing the old card there,
but I think it disrespectful to swear at another person and its hurtful.
You have lashed out at me in this way.
It is petty.
I will play the child card here and say I'm very thankful my children don't do that.
Potty mouth is very unattractive.

So we agree to ignore each other then from now on.
Hopefully to be respectful in our posts to everyone.
To live and let live. This is a very good idea.

But on your path keep your ears open..
even those you think you have formed an opinion on,
they may surprise you with some very thoughtful words.

Well I'm truly sorry (but not surprised) that we have such very different memories of the same events.

About the swearing... I use the term fuck to my friends, as some people in their 30's would do also, this commonplace for me. I don't swear when I speak to my mother, to my grandmother, to children, etc., but I don't care whether or not you find it or me attractive - this isn't match.com. This is a website for the band Pearl Jam. I'm sure everyone here is familiar with and a fan of their curse-filled music and has still chosen to stick around. Therefore, I think this is a perfectly acceptable place for such words to be used. Please note that, while I use swear words casually around here in general (not just with you), I have ALWAYS resisted the temptation to use them AGAINST you (e.g. I've never called you a bitch or told you to fuck off). My point being that my use of these words is in no way meant to insult you.

EmBleve

. Is it ideal? FUCK no!!! But let me tell you guys something that have never had a kid... it is NEVER the ideal time to have a kid. You can NEVER be completely ready.[/quote]

I totally agree with this, and a person can never be completely ready...Some of us unfortunate people who have made unwise financial decisions in the past--and have learned from them, but still do not have hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank for 'preparations' (and probably never will)--, can still provide the basics for a child--and love and an instillation of values and respect, in my opinion, is a little more important than what's in a bank account. If you wait until you're 'ready', it will be too late because that day never comes. I say at least having a j-o-b is a good start.

_

pandora wrote:

20 years from now, when you are 55 and have kids approaching 30 you will perhaps understand
how I feel. At this point I don't expect understanding from you. It takes very insightful people to understand and to bridge the generation gap.


I am a Mom and you are children to me.
Pretty simple concept.

Okay, I wasn't going to say anything else, but I just have to say this: You have got to stop assuming that everyone is so much younger than you and that they aren't parents. (You know what they say happens when we ass-u-me...) Many of the people you call children & talk down to are actually just about your age and have children too. (I do understand, though, how it would be difficult to guess that since some of them look so damn good for their age.)

GTFLYGIRL

Jeanwah wrote:

I understand the argument here, and Heidijam's position, but solving the problem, rather than argue, may simply be insisting Welfare recipients use protection. I have a friend who has 3 kids, was on welfare, now has a good temporary job, and is a single mother. She's told me that she's considering having another baby in the future! :shock: Personally, I don't advocate for her position since she may have to go back on welfare eventually, and her interests are selfish. But she's trying to get on track; she's back in school and working. That doesn't mean that she'll always be able to financially support her family. But she needs to recognize that getting pregnant again is not looking out for her or her 3 existing kids best interest.

And guys...really.....quit the fucking fighting. Take it elsewhere.

It's a tough cycle... and it is amazing to me that people continue to want to have more children in a position like this... a lot of people have babies to fulfill some personal needs of their own... it's a sad situation... like young girls who want babies so they will have a "family" and won't feel alone... or couples in horrible marriages with emotionally neglected kids who keep having kids... because they "can"... maybe they can financially take care of these kids... but who's to say these children will not become a burden on society when they are older... they grow up in unhappy households and who knows what will become of them as they mature... it's a crazy world....

I wish your friend all the best and *hopefully* she will realize having more children will not fill any type of void she is feeling and education will help her gain more self-worth....

thanks for helping to set this thread straight... i think it is now that i bow out... i avoid this forum for the exact reason you cited... i don't want to be part of all that... and just allow myself to get sucked into and become participatory (and a perpetrator) in all the bullshit on here... thanks again.

Here is a parting gift for those of you who clearly do not understand the regulations and limits of TANF (as many call "welfare"...) This spells out and explains the time limits and work regulations in a very basic way...

http://www.workworld.org/wwwebhelp/temp ... quirements