Some people respect others, your rant proves you do not.
Just like the grudge you carry from the smoking thread when you ranted at me.
I use the term child to my own children and to their friends
as some mothers in their 50's would do also, this commonplace for me.
I don't bait anyone but many of your posts and threads appear to.
I have never spoken to a mod except when I posted a pic and got a pm and helped with an apology cause of trademark issues. Why would you think I would do something like that? Tattletail I have never been.
So you would rather I not answer any of your threads? When I have an opinion?
I'm not sure about that. But we can choose to ignore each other which I sort of thought I was doing til you answered my opinion posts.
I respect everyone - until they prove to me repeatedly that they don't deserve my respect. You lost my respect long before the smoking thread.
Whether or not it is commonplace for you to call everyone children, you do so specifically to offend & condescend to me and I have asked you nicely not to. I'll ask you again now to please stop calling me a child, being condescending, and telling me I can't have an opinion because I don't have children. In fact, I'm asking that you stop doing that to other people as well. Please. Thank you.
Answer my threads if you want to, but please back up what you say with reason instead of personal attacks. "I'm older than you are" is not sound reasoning for why someone is wrong & you are right, and the rest of us don't stoop to that level. I know I expect better from someone who claims to be so wise & mature.
The levels you stoop to I will not.
Don't pretend to be so caring when you choose to only be a caring person tosome at certain times when it pleases you. It is not a part time heart.
I don't know what I did to lose your respect...perhaps you are not being quite honest about that...your pm to me about the loss of your Grandma was very congenial.
I feel it was the smoking thread that upset you and I'm sorry that effected you in this way, it was not my intention. And hopefully you can let that go.
In my opinion its good policy to respect everyone...
you don't have to agree and you don't have to like but you should respect others and not be mean to them.
I am not condescending I have explained where child comes from. I don't claim to be anything as far as your wise and mature statement. If people think that about me, wonderful, but I have never said that.
I have also never said anything about not being able to have an opinion because you don't have kids. :?
If there was a thread I'm not remembering that had to do with being a Mom... perhaps you are speaking of this but I don't feel that way in general. I do feel.... walk a mile in my shoes though. I also feel older people have had the years and experience that younger people may not have had.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I don't get excited when they don't agree with me.
I am no longer wound tight.... I have found peace in my life and accept others and pray
for their happiness on their journey. I feel I have the big picture.
The extra years have given me this....I did not have that 20 years ago but thats not to say
others don't.
The only thing that really upsets me is when people swear at me.
I'm old school, not playing the old card there,
but I think it disrespectful to swear at another person and its hurtful.
You have lashed out at me in this way.
It is petty.
I will play the child card here and say I'm very thankful my children don't do that.
Potty mouth is very unattractive.
So we agree to ignore each other then from now on.
Hopefully to be respectful in our posts to everyone.
To live and let live. This is a very good idea.
But on your path keep your ears open..
even those you think you have formed an opinion on,
they may surprise you with some very thoughtful words.
Some people respect others, your rant proves you do not.
Funny... that is EXACTLY what i was thinking about YOU....
oh well... keep calling well-educated women in their thirties children... that shows your are so evolved... much like your opinions about people (as in this thread) and your attitudes toward others show how much you respect people.
Ranting and directing profanity is disrespectful... unless you agree thats appropriate behavior...
perhaps you do.
I have pleaded with you in a couple pm's basically on my knees open heart all for naught
so I do know a bit about your lack of respect for others too.
So your words here now are a 'kettle black' thing...
You pick and choose whom to respect yet argue we should respect all people when you do not give the same consideration. You choose who gets your support.
20 years from now, when you are 55 and have kids approaching 30 you will perhaps understand
how I feel. At this point I don't expect understanding from you. It takes very insightful people to understand and to bridge the generation gap.
I am a Mom and you are children to me.
Pretty simple concept.
And again you have no solution to the problems facing our world...only identify a problem and put down others and how they may choose to solve it. I don't find that very evolved. I find that to be just simple finger pointing.
In my opinion requiring something from people is caring. Just like the community service thread some view it as negative when it is a positive.
We do no one favors allowing them to grow up on welfare and have babies at age 15.
To not be able to have a good education, to live in crime ridden neighborhoods and perhaps resort to crime themselves.
We can't take care of the children that are already here let alone all that will be born just this year into a system that is dragging our country down.
What solution have we come up with in this thread to solve the problem?
Or are we just talking back an forth pointing fingers at each other...
Those who claim to have such big hearts, allowing generations on welfare to drain our country.
Against the realists who want clear change and to stop being overtaxed to the point of needing second and third jobs to raise their own children.
There must be a reasonable middle of the road as with everything to solve this problem.
I have pleaded with you in a couple pm's basically on my knees open heart all for naught
so I do know a bit about your lack of respect for others too.
So your words here now are a 'kettle black' thing...
I am a Mom and you are children to me.
Pretty simple concept.
You sent me a PM that was anything but "on your knees with open heart..." :roll: ..... I RESPECTFULLY requested you NOT write to me again.... but DISRESPECTFULLY... you did anyway. I have no desire to have a "relationship" with you whereby you and I PM with each other... If you notice... I RESPECTFULLY never opened your last PM as I was clear in asking you not to keep writing to me... but you were unable to abide by my simple request.
It's not surprising to me that you believe you have any clue how old I am or what my life experiences consist of... yet are so off base... it's par for the course with your assumptions about others... and your condescending remarks....
You just sound silly calling me a child when you have no idea how old I am or what I have lived through... Pretty simple concept.
I understand the argument here, and Heidijam's position, but solving the problem, rather than argue, may simply be insisting Welfare recipients use protection. I have a friend who has 3 kids, was on welfare, now has a good temporary job, and is a single mother. She's told me that she's considering having another baby in the future! :shock: Personally, I don't advocate for her position since she may have to go back on welfare eventually, and her interests are selfish. But she's trying to get on track; she's back in school and working. That doesn't mean that she'll always be able to financially support her family. But she needs to recognize that getting pregnant again is not looking out for her or her 3 existing kids best interest.
And guys...really.....quit the fucking fighting. Take it elsewhere.
In my opinion requiring something from people is caring. Just like the community service thread some view it as negative when it is a positive.
We do no one favors allowing them to grow up on welfare and have babies at age 15.
To not be able to have a good education, to live in crime ridden neighborhoods and perhaps resort to crime themselves.
We can't take care of the children that are already here let alone all that will be born just this year into a system that is dragging our country down.
What solution have we come up with in this thread to solve the problem?
Or are we just talking back an forth pointing fingers at each other...
Those who claim to have such big hearts, allowing generations on welfare to drain our country.
Against the realists who want clear change and to stop being overtaxed to the point of needing second and third jobs to raise their own children.
There must be a reasonable middle of the road as with everything to solve this problem.
A few thoughts:
1. You've made some interestingly provocative statements without attempting to back them up, e.g. "[the welfare] system is dragging our country down." I mean seriously? of all things, like wars/defense spending and corporate bail outs, WELFARE is what drags our country down?? Did you mean something else because this is what I understood.
2. You say we need to stop pointing fingers and come up with solutions, but in the same exact post you pointed fingers by calling this a system that drags the country down, etc, and offered no solutions yourself.
3. You claim you would like to seek a middle road but even the way you present "both sides" is troubling: one side is people who "claim" to have big hearts and have no problem "draining our country." Then you present the "realists" who want "change", etc. Do you not see a problem in how you presented both sides here? if you don't, then you obviously have no place to call for a middle road or compromise. You also seem to completely suggest that those who would like to sympathize with poor families on welfare cannot also want to see some change implemented in the system. With that said, I would argue that such people ARE the realists. They actually consider that there's no way to prevent poor people from having children and living their lives. not only is it not practical, it's morally reprehensible. We need social equity as a first step. Social equity defined in financial terms unfortunately will never come to pass, realistically. But social equity defined in MORAL terms must be a foundation of any society. That is, that we cannot accurately pass judgment on all people especially those less fortunate than others. If a poor family on welfare has children, one thinks that because he or she is more privileged than them that they can judge them and actually advocate against such families having children.
Poverty is an inescapable reality in every country. And it is morally incumbent on all those who are able to help those less privileged than them. On the other hand, maybe instead of you guys bitching about welfare, you can focus your anger on things that are actually draining our country's budget, like defense spending on useless wars. If we actually tried to cut down our military spending as opposed to our social program spending, and start using that money to enhance our economy, create jobs, stop borrowing money and resources and importing products from other countries (read: China), then we'd both be battling poverty and unemployment while still helping those less fortunate. Seems simple enough. But why be angry at our government/military when it's so much easier to take our anger out on poor (usually of minority race) people?
Some people respect others, your rant proves you do not.
Just like the grudge you carry from the smoking thread when you ranted at me.
I use the term child to my own children and to their friends
as some mothers in their 50's would do also, this commonplace for me.
I don't bait anyone but many of your posts and threads appear to.
I have never spoken to a mod except when I posted a pic and got a pm and helped with an apology cause of trademark issues. Why would you think I would do something like that? Tattletail I have never been.
So you would rather I not answer any of your threads? When I have an opinion?
I'm not sure about that. But we can choose to ignore each other which I sort of thought I was doing til you answered my opinion posts.
I respect everyone - until they prove to me repeatedly that they don't deserve my respect. You lost my respect long before the smoking thread.
Whether or not it is commonplace for you to call everyone children, you do so specifically to offend & condescend to me and I have asked you nicely not to. I'll ask you again now to please stop calling me a child, being condescending, and telling me I can't have an opinion because I don't have children. In fact, I'm asking that you stop doing that to other people as well. Please. Thank you.
Answer my threads if you want to, but please back up what you say with reason instead of personal attacks. "I'm older than you are" is not sound reasoning for why someone is wrong & you are right, and the rest of us don't stoop to that level. I know I expect better from someone who claims to be so wise & mature.
The levels you stoop to I will not.
Don't pretend to be so caring when you choose to only be a caring person tosome at certain times when it pleases you. It is not a part time heart.
I don't know what I did to lose your respect...perhaps you are not being quite honest about that...your pm to me about the loss of your Grandma was very congenial.
I feel it was the smoking thread that upset you and I'm sorry that effected you in this way, it was not my intention. And hopefully you can let that go.
In my opinion its good policy to respect everyone...
you don't have to agree and you don't have to like but you should respect others and not be mean to them.
I am not condescending I have explained where child comes from. I don't claim to be anything as far as your wise and mature statement. If people think that about me, wonderful, but I have never said that.
I have also never said anything about not being able to have an opinion because you don't have kids. :?
If there was a thread I'm not remembering that had to do with being a Mom... perhaps you are speaking of this but I don't feel that way in general. I do feel.... walk a mile in my shoes though. I also feel older people have had the years and experience that younger people may not have had.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I don't get excited when they don't agree with me.
I am no longer wound tight.... I have found peace in my life and accept others and pray
for their happiness on their journey. I feel I have the big picture.
The extra years have given me this....I did not have that 20 years ago but thats not to say
others don't.
The only thing that really upsets me is when people swear at me.
I'm old school, not playing the old card there,
but I think it disrespectful to swear at another person and its hurtful.
You have lashed out at me in this way.
It is petty.
I will play the child card here and say I'm very thankful my children don't do that.
Potty mouth is very unattractive.
So we agree to ignore each other then from now on.
Hopefully to be respectful in our posts to everyone.
To live and let live. This is a very good idea.
But on your path keep your ears open..
even those you think you have formed an opinion on,
they may surprise you with some very thoughtful words.
Well I'm truly sorry (but not surprised) that we have such very different memories of the same events.
About the swearing... I use the term fuck to my friends, as some people in their 30's would do also, this commonplace for me. I don't swear when I speak to my mother, to my grandmother, to children, etc., but I don't care whether or not you find it or me attractive - this isn't match.com. This is a website for the band Pearl Jam. I'm sure everyone here is familiar with and a fan of their curse-filled music and has still chosen to stick around. Therefore, I think this is a perfectly acceptable place for such words to be used. Please note that, while I use swear words casually around here in general (not just with you), I have ALWAYS resisted the temptation to use them AGAINST you (e.g. I've never called you a bitch or told you to fuck off). My point being that my use of these words is in no way meant to insult you.
. Is it ideal? FUCK no!!! But let me tell you guys something that have never had a kid... it is NEVER the ideal time to have a kid. You can NEVER be completely ready.[/quote]
I totally agree with this, and a person can never be completely ready...Some of us unfortunate people who have made unwise financial decisions in the past--and have learned from them, but still do not have hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank for 'preparations' (and probably never will)--, can still provide the basics for a child--and love and an instillation of values and respect, in my opinion, is a little more important than what's in a bank account. If you wait until you're 'ready', it will be too late because that day never comes. I say at least having a j-o-b is a good start.
20 years from now, when you are 55 and have kids approaching 30 you will perhaps understand
how I feel. At this point I don't expect understanding from you. It takes very insightful people to understand and to bridge the generation gap.
I am a Mom and you are children to me.
Pretty simple concept.
Okay, I wasn't going to say anything else, but I just have to say this: You have got to stop assuming that everyone is so much younger than you and that they aren't parents. (You know what they say happens when we ass-u-me...) Many of the people you call children & talk down to are actually just about your age and have children too. (I do understand, though, how it would be difficult to guess that since some of them look so damn good for their age.)
I understand the argument here, and Heidijam's position, but solving the problem, rather than argue, may simply be insisting Welfare recipients use protection. I have a friend who has 3 kids, was on welfare, now has a good temporary job, and is a single mother. She's told me that she's considering having another baby in the future! :shock: Personally, I don't advocate for her position since she may have to go back on welfare eventually, and her interests are selfish. But she's trying to get on track; she's back in school and working. That doesn't mean that she'll always be able to financially support her family. But she needs to recognize that getting pregnant again is not looking out for her or her 3 existing kids best interest.
And guys...really.....quit the fucking fighting. Take it elsewhere.
It's a tough cycle... and it is amazing to me that people continue to want to have more children in a position like this... a lot of people have babies to fulfill some personal needs of their own... it's a sad situation... like young girls who want babies so they will have a "family" and won't feel alone... or couples in horrible marriages with emotionally neglected kids who keep having kids... because they "can"... maybe they can financially take care of these kids... but who's to say these children will not become a burden on society when they are older... they grow up in unhappy households and who knows what will become of them as they mature... it's a crazy world....
I wish your friend all the best and *hopefully* she will realize having more children will not fill any type of void she is feeling and education will help her gain more self-worth....
thanks for helping to set this thread straight... i think it is now that i bow out... i avoid this forum for the exact reason you cited... i don't want to be part of all that... and just allow myself to get sucked into and become participatory (and a perpetrator) in all the bullshit on here... thanks again.
Here is a parting gift for those of you who clearly do not understand the regulations and limits of TANF (as many call "welfare"...) This spells out and explains the time limits and work regulations in a very basic way...
In my opinion requiring something from people is caring. Just like the community service thread some view it as negative when it is a positive.
We do no one favors allowing them to grow up on welfare and have babies at age 15.
To not be able to have a good education, to live in crime ridden neighborhoods and perhaps resort to crime themselves.
We can't take care of the children that are already here let alone all that will be born just this year into a system that is dragging our country down.
What solution have we come up with in this thread to solve the problem?
Or are we just talking back an forth pointing fingers at each other...
Those who claim to have such big hearts, allowing generations on welfare to drain our country.
Against the realists who want clear change and to stop being overtaxed to the point of needing second and third jobs to raise their own children.
There must be a reasonable middle of the road as with everything to solve this problem.
Okay, back to the subject at hand...
Speaking of being a realist, how exactly do you propose we disallow people from having babies at 15 without turning our backs on the babies?
About the swearing... I use the term fuck to my friends, as some people in their 30's would do also, this commonplace for me. I don't swear when I speak to my mother, to my grandmother, to children, etc., but I don't care whether or not you find it or me attractive - this isn't match.com. This is a website for the band Pearl Jam. I'm sure everyone here is familiar with and a fan of their curse-filled music and has still chosen to stick around. Therefore, I think this is a perfectly acceptable place for such words to be used. Please note that, while I use swear words casually around here in general (not just with you), I have ALWAYS resisted the temptation to use them AGAINST you (e.g. I've never called you a bitch or told you to fuck off). My point being that my use of these words is in no way meant to insult you.
But we are ignoring each other now right....please say yes
20 years from now, when you are 55 and have kids approaching 30 you will perhaps understand
how I feel. At this point I don't expect understanding from you. It takes very insightful people to understand and to bridge the generation gap.
I am a Mom and you are children to me.
Pretty simple concept.
Okay, I wasn't going to say anything else, but I just have to say this: You have got to stop assuming that everyone is so much younger than you and that they aren't parents. (You know what they say happens when we ass-u-me...) Many of the people you call children & talk down to are actually just about your age and have children too. (I do understand, though, how it would be difficult to guess that since some of them look so damn good for their age.)
I'm not assuming this and you assuming I do is incorrect and is making an --- out of you
I understand the argument here, and Heidijam's position, but solving the problem, rather than argue, may simply be insisting Welfare recipients use protection. I have a friend who has 3 kids, was on welfare, now has a good temporary job, and is a single mother. She's told me that she's considering having another baby in the future! :shock: Personally, I don't advocate for her position since she may have to go back on welfare eventually, and her interests are selfish. But she's trying to get on track; she's back in school and working. That doesn't mean that she'll always be able to financially support her family. But she needs to recognize that getting pregnant again is not looking out for her or her 3 existing kids best interest.
And guys...really.....quit the fucking fighting. Take it elsewhere.
It's a tough cycle... and it is amazing to me that people continue to want to have more children in a position like this... a lot of people have babies to fulfill some personal needs of their own... it's a sad situation... like young girls who want babies so they will have a "family" and won't feel alone... or couples in horrible marriages with emotionally neglected kids who keep having kids... because they "can"... maybe they can financially take care of these kids... but who's to say these children will not become a burden on society when they are older... they grow up in unhappy households and who knows what will become of them as they mature... it's a crazy world....
I wish your friend all the best and *hopefully* she will realize having more children will not fill any type of void she is feeling and education will help her gain more self-worth....
thanks for helping to set this thread straight... i think it is now that i bow out... i avoid this forum for the exact reason you cited... i don't want to be part of all that... and just allow myself to get sucked into and become participatory (and a perpetrator) in all the bullshit on here... thanks again.
Here is a parting gift for those of you who clearly do not understand the regulations and limits of TANF (as many call "welfare"...) This spells out and explains the time limits and work regulations in a very basic way...
Yes, I'm worried about her 3 kids, and their place in society, as college isn't really on the brain at all with my friend, and I'm actually dying to ask her how she feels about her kids' future and if college is something she (and they) are thinking about. My friend is very caring, and I believe she's in love with the idea of being depended on, mothering, and taking care of herself. But deep down I know she may feel that her kids are all she has and having another fills some kind of void. :? I don't know how to approach her about this "idea" of hers that having more kids seems to be the answer, without hurting her feelings.
I have pleaded with you in a couple pm's basically on my knees open heart all for naught
so I do know a bit about your lack of respect for others too.
So your words here now are a 'kettle black' thing...
I am a Mom and you are children to me.
Pretty simple concept.
You sent me a PM that was anything but "on your knees with open heart..." :roll: ..... I RESPECTFULLY requested you NOT write to me again.... but DISRESPECTFULLY... you did anyway. I have no desire to have a "relationship" with you whereby you and I PM with each other... If you notice... I RESPECTFULLY never opened your last PM as I was clear in asking you not to keep writing to me... but you were unable to abide by my simple request.
It's not surprising to me that you believe you have any clue how old I am or what my life experiences consist of... yet are so off base... it's par for the course with your assumptions about others... and your condescending remarks....
You just sound silly calling me a child when you have no idea how old I am or what I have lived through... Pretty simple concept.
Well because you called people who didn't agree with you morons in my first pm I asked please not to do that.
It sounds like you consider yourself to be so much better than others...those who do not share your opinion.
In the second I was pleading which you did not open and I say that is quite disrespectful.
To read someones pm is one thing to answer is another.
It is the shutting out of others that really shows one's true colors.
And it is not a request for a relationship :? ...get over yourself.
I never called you a child and like I said it takes an insightful person to understand others and you don't won't or can't give it a try.
Oh yes I love the rolling eyes...do you do that to people in person too?
Very disrespectful and hurtful but not surprising.
Clearing you think yourself better than most and perhaps enjoy the put downs.
Yes, I'm worried about her 3 kids, and their place in society, as college isn't really on the brain at all with my friend, and I'm actually dying to ask her how she feels about her kids' future and if college is something she (and they) are thinking about. My friend is very caring, and I believe she's in love with the idea of being depended on, mothering, and taking care of herself. But deep down I know she may feel that her kids are all she has and having another fills some kind of void. :? I don't know how to approach her about this "idea" of hers that having more kids seems to be the answer, without hurting her feelings.
It's a tough situation... I would say that you should maybe suggest therapy... but with working, going to school and being a single mom... if she's not in counseling...I am sure she thinks she doesn't have "time" for it.... Probably, as her friend, your only approach that would maybe be "heard," without causing her to pull away from you, would be to suggest to her, when she mentions it... that she sure seems to have her hands full now. I am sure you have probably already done that though... My only other thought is the "it takes a village to raise a child approach" and just try to make yourself as present in their lives as you can... exposing the kids to new things, concepts, experiences etc.... I can tell you clearly care about her and the kids... so that is a great thing right there!
I understand the argument here, and Heidijam's position, but solving the problem, rather than argue, may simply be insisting Welfare recipients use protection.
Yes, contraception use would be great, but we don't need to INSIST that poor people use contraception - we just need to ALLOW them to use contraception. There's a reason why unintended pregnancy rates & abortion rates rise in direct INVERSE proportion to income - and why this country had the highest unintended pregnancy rate in the developed world. It's a SYSTEMS issue. Poor people WANT to prevent pregnancy - even more than the rest of us, I'd say - but the system is set up to make this a lot more difficult the less money you have. Poor women have very little chance of being able to access the most reliable forms of birth control. And now Congress is about to take away even what slim chance they do have.
So if we want poor people to have fewer kids, all we have to do is fight to improve access to contraception. This is an easy solution that we know will work if we all do our part - and yet we don't. We can do this by increasing - not eliminating - funding to such programs as Title X family planning (which saves us $3.74 in averted pregnancies for every $1 spent - and that's just counting costs through the first year of life) and Planned Parenthood (which is the largest birth control provider in the nation, especially for poor people). But WE have to stand up and do our parts to make this happen; it's just not possible for the poor people to do it alone, no matter how hard they try.
Well because you called people who didn't agree with you morons in my first pm I asked please not to do that.
Uhmmm.... no...I called people who irresponsibly encouraged someone they do not know to KILL ANOTHER PERSON... who they also do not know.. MORONS... Apparently, you continue to believe that was responsible and sound advice...
That is why I had no desire to communicate with you further.
Since you clearly MUST always have the last word... and like to play martyr... please feel free to respond... (not in a PM!!... just making that clear!!!) ... but i will not comment back to you at all... so let the insults fly if you must... ADIOS.
I understand the argument here, and Heidijam's position, but solving the problem, rather than argue, may simply be insisting Welfare recipients use protection.
Yes, contraception use would be great, but we don't need to INSIST that poor people use contraception - we just need to ALLOW them to use contraception. There's a reason why unintended pregnancy rates & abortion rates rise in direct INVERSE proportion to income - and why this country had the highest unintended pregnancy rate in the developed world. It's a SYSTEMS issue. Poor people WANT to prevent pregnancy - even more than the rest of us, I'd say - but the system is set up to make this a lot more difficult the less money you have. Poor women have very little chance of being able to access the most reliable forms of birth control. And now Congress is about to take away even what slim chance they do have.
So if we want poor people to have fewer kids, all we have to do is fight to improve access to contraception. This is an easy solution that we know will work if we all do our part - and yet we don't. We can do this by increasing - not eliminating - funding to such programs as Title X family planning (which saves us $3.74 in averted pregnancies for every $1 spent - and that's just counting costs through the first year of life) and Planned Parenthood (which is the largest birth control provider in the nation, especially for poor people). But WE have to stand up and do our parts to make this happen; it's just not possible for the poor people to do it alone, no matter how hard they try.
The bolded part is generalizing, as if you read about my friend, you'd see that you may have to adjust your thinking that all folks who are poor don't want more kids. I personally believe that there should be some kind of regulations in place for those on welfare and have kids to get counseling and seriously urged to use protection that's very available to them.
Well because you called people who didn't agree with you morons in my first pm I asked please not to do that.
Uhmmm.... no...I called people who irresponsibly encouraged someone they do not know to KILL ANOTHER PERSON... who they also do not know.. MORONS... Apparently, you continue to believe that was responsible and sound advice...
That is why I had no desire to communicate with you further.
Since you clearly MUST always have the last word... and like to play martyr... please feel free to respond... (not in a PM!!... just making that clear!!!) ... but i will not comment back to you at all... so let the insults fly if you must... ADIOS.
It is not me who insults and resorts to name calling.... I respect others too much for that.
The bolded part is generalizing, as if you read about my friend, you'd see that you may have to adjust your thinking that all folks who are poor don't want more kids.
Clearly you are correct, Jeanwah... but especially for the working poor... access to affordable contraception can be VERY challenging... and if they cut the funding to Planned Parenthood... it's going to be a whole lot worse... :evil:
The bolded part is generalizing, as if you read about my friend, you'd see that you may have to adjust your thinking that all folks who are poor don't want more kids.
Clearly you are correct, Jeanwah... but especially for the working poor... access to affordable contraception can be VERY challenging... and if they cut the funding to Planned Parenthood... it's going to be a whole lot worse... :evil:
Yeah, I edited my post to include that contraception should be readily available. It seems that the only funding not being cut is military. Which is disgusting.
I understand the argument here, and Heidijam's position, but solving the problem, rather than argue, may simply be insisting Welfare recipients use protection.
Yes, contraception use would be great, but we don't need to INSIST that poor people use contraception - we just need to ALLOW them to use contraception. There's a reason why unintended pregnancy rates & abortion rates rise in direct INVERSE proportion to income - and why this country had the highest unintended pregnancy rate in the developed world. It's a SYSTEMS issue. Poor people WANT to prevent pregnancy - even more than the rest of us, I'd say - but the system is set up to make this a lot more difficult the less money you have. Poor women have very little chance of being able to access the most reliable forms of birth control. And now Congress is about to take away even what slim chance they do have.
So if we want poor people to have fewer kids, all we have to do is fight to improve access to contraception. This is an easy solution that we know will work if we all do our part - and yet we don't. We can do this by increasing - not eliminating - funding to such programs as Title X family planning (which saves us $3.74 in averted pregnancies for every $1 spent - and that's just counting costs through the first year of life) and Planned Parenthood (which is the largest birth control provider in the nation, especially for poor people). But WE have to stand up and do our parts to make this happen; it's just not possible for the poor people to do it alone, no matter how hard they try.
The bolded part is generalizing, as if you read about my friend, you'd see that you may have to adjust your thinking that all folks who are poor don't want more kids. I personally believe that there should be some kind of regulations in place for those on welfare and have kids to get counseling and seriously urged to use protection that's very available to them.
I should have been more clear. I don't mean that "ALL folks who are poor don't want more kids". I just mean that we can't say that poor folks want to prevent pregnancy any LESS than the rest of us do - and, based on my vast experience with poor people's reproductive decision-making processes, my best guess would be that (given their situation) they may be even more inclined to want to prevent pregnancy. Your friend is obviously an exception - and I'm sure she's not the only one - but I don't think she's the rule (which is why I left out the part about her in my response).
I don't know if you also meant to say I was generalizing about this being a systems issue, but there's plenty of evidence that this is true. Do you think, as well as urging people to use protection, that we should address the fact that they simply can't use reliable protection if it's not available to them?
EDIT: Sorry - I didn't see that you had edited your post.
i learn my lesson with the years..i take the money first and then i get naked..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Comments
Don't pretend to be so caring when you choose to only be a caring person
to some at certain times when it pleases you. It is not a part time heart.
I don't know what I did to lose your respect...perhaps you are not being quite honest about that...your pm to me about the loss of your Grandma was very congenial.
I feel it was the smoking thread that upset you and I'm sorry that effected you in this way, it was not my intention. And hopefully you can let that go.
In my opinion its good policy to respect everyone...
you don't have to agree and you don't have to like but you should respect others and not be mean to them.
I am not condescending I have explained where child comes from. I don't claim to be anything as far as your wise and mature statement. If people think that about me, wonderful, but I have never said that.
I have also never said anything about not being able to have an opinion because you don't have kids. :?
If there was a thread I'm not remembering that had to do with being a Mom... perhaps you are speaking of this but I don't feel that way in general. I do feel.... walk a mile in my shoes though. I also feel older people have had the years and experience that younger people may not have had.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I don't get excited when they don't agree with me.
I am no longer wound tight.... I have found peace in my life and accept others and pray
for their happiness on their journey. I feel I have the big picture.
The extra years have given me this....I did not have that 20 years ago but thats not to say
others don't.
The only thing that really upsets me is when people swear at me.
I'm old school, not playing the old card there,
but I think it disrespectful to swear at another person and its hurtful.
You have lashed out at me in this way.
It is petty.
I will play the child card here and say I'm very thankful my children don't do that.
Potty mouth is very unattractive.
So we agree to ignore each other then from now on.
Hopefully to be respectful in our posts to everyone.
To live and let live. This is a very good idea.
But on your path keep your ears open..
even those you think you have formed an opinion on,
they may surprise you with some very thoughtful words.
perhaps you do.
I have pleaded with you in a couple pm's basically on my knees open heart all for naught
so I do know a bit about your lack of respect for others too.
So your words here now are a 'kettle black' thing...
You pick and choose whom to respect yet argue we should respect all people when you do not give the same consideration. You choose who gets your support.
20 years from now, when you are 55 and have kids approaching 30 you will perhaps understand
how I feel. At this point I don't expect understanding from you. It takes very insightful people to understand and to bridge the generation gap.
I am a Mom and you are children to me.
Pretty simple concept.
And again you have no solution to the problems facing our world...only identify a problem and put down others and how they may choose to solve it. I don't find that very evolved. I find that to be just simple finger pointing.
We do no one favors allowing them to grow up on welfare and have babies at age 15.
To not be able to have a good education, to live in crime ridden neighborhoods and perhaps resort to crime themselves.
We can't take care of the children that are already here let alone all that will be born just this year into a system that is dragging our country down.
What solution have we come up with in this thread to solve the problem?
Or are we just talking back an forth pointing fingers at each other...
Those who claim to have such big hearts, allowing generations on welfare to drain our country.
Against the realists who want clear change and to stop being overtaxed to the point of needing second and third jobs to raise their own children.
There must be a reasonable middle of the road as with everything to solve this problem.
You sent me a PM that was anything but "on your knees with open heart..." :roll: ..... I RESPECTFULLY requested you NOT write to me again.... but DISRESPECTFULLY... you did anyway. I have no desire to have a "relationship" with you whereby you and I PM with each other... If you notice... I RESPECTFULLY never opened your last PM as I was clear in asking you not to keep writing to me... but you were unable to abide by my simple request.
It's not surprising to me that you believe you have any clue how old I am or what my life experiences consist of... yet are so off base... it's par for the course with your assumptions about others... and your condescending remarks....
You just sound silly calling me a child when you have no idea how old I am or what I have lived through... Pretty simple concept.
And guys...really.....quit the fucking fighting. Take it elsewhere.
1. You've made some interestingly provocative statements without attempting to back them up, e.g. "[the welfare] system is dragging our country down." I mean seriously? of all things, like wars/defense spending and corporate bail outs, WELFARE is what drags our country down?? Did you mean something else because this is what I understood.
2. You say we need to stop pointing fingers and come up with solutions, but in the same exact post you pointed fingers by calling this a system that drags the country down, etc, and offered no solutions yourself.
3. You claim you would like to seek a middle road but even the way you present "both sides" is troubling: one side is people who "claim" to have big hearts and have no problem "draining our country." Then you present the "realists" who want "change", etc. Do you not see a problem in how you presented both sides here? if you don't, then you obviously have no place to call for a middle road or compromise. You also seem to completely suggest that those who would like to sympathize with poor families on welfare cannot also want to see some change implemented in the system. With that said, I would argue that such people ARE the realists. They actually consider that there's no way to prevent poor people from having children and living their lives. not only is it not practical, it's morally reprehensible. We need social equity as a first step. Social equity defined in financial terms unfortunately will never come to pass, realistically. But social equity defined in MORAL terms must be a foundation of any society. That is, that we cannot accurately pass judgment on all people especially those less fortunate than others. If a poor family on welfare has children, one thinks that because he or she is more privileged than them that they can judge them and actually advocate against such families having children.
Poverty is an inescapable reality in every country. And it is morally incumbent on all those who are able to help those less privileged than them. On the other hand, maybe instead of you guys bitching about welfare, you can focus your anger on things that are actually draining our country's budget, like defense spending on useless wars. If we actually tried to cut down our military spending as opposed to our social program spending, and start using that money to enhance our economy, create jobs, stop borrowing money and resources and importing products from other countries (read: China), then we'd both be battling poverty and unemployment while still helping those less fortunate. Seems simple enough. But why be angry at our government/military when it's so much easier to take our anger out on poor (usually of minority race) people?
Well I'm truly sorry (but not surprised) that we have such very different memories of the same events.
About the swearing... I use the term fuck to my friends, as some people in their 30's would do also, this commonplace for me. I don't swear when I speak to my mother, to my grandmother, to children, etc., but I don't care whether or not you find it or me attractive - this isn't match.com. This is a website for the band Pearl Jam. I'm sure everyone here is familiar with and a fan of their curse-filled music and has still chosen to stick around. Therefore, I think this is a perfectly acceptable place for such words to be used. Please note that, while I use swear words casually around here in general (not just with you), I have ALWAYS resisted the temptation to use them AGAINST you (e.g. I've never called you a bitch or told you to fuck off). My point being that my use of these words is in no way meant to insult you.
I totally agree with this, and a person can never be completely ready...Some of us unfortunate people who have made unwise financial decisions in the past--and have learned from them, but still do not have hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank for 'preparations' (and probably never will)--, can still provide the basics for a child--and love and an instillation of values and respect, in my opinion, is a little more important than what's in a bank account. If you wait until you're 'ready', it will be too late because that day never comes. I say at least having a j-o-b is a good start.
Okay, I wasn't going to say anything else, but I just have to say this: You have got to stop assuming that everyone is so much younger than you and that they aren't parents. (You know what they say happens when we ass-u-me...) Many of the people you call children & talk down to are actually just about your age and have children too. (I do understand, though, how it would be difficult to guess that since some of them look so damn good for their age.)
It's a tough cycle... and it is amazing to me that people continue to want to have more children in a position like this... a lot of people have babies to fulfill some personal needs of their own... it's a sad situation... like young girls who want babies so they will have a "family" and won't feel alone... or couples in horrible marriages with emotionally neglected kids who keep having kids... because they "can"... maybe they can financially take care of these kids... but who's to say these children will not become a burden on society when they are older... they grow up in unhappy households and who knows what will become of them as they mature... it's a crazy world....
I wish your friend all the best and *hopefully* she will realize having more children will not fill any type of void she is feeling and education will help her gain more self-worth....
thanks for helping to set this thread straight... i think it is now that i bow out... i avoid this forum for the exact reason you cited... i don't want to be part of all that... and just allow myself to get sucked into and become participatory (and a perpetrator) in all the bullshit on here... thanks again.
Here is a parting gift for those of you who clearly do not understand the regulations and limits of TANF (as many call "welfare"...) This spells out and explains the time limits and work regulations in a very basic way...
http://www.workworld.org/wwwebhelp/temp ... quirements
Okay, back to the subject at hand...
Speaking of being a realist, how exactly do you propose we disallow people from having babies at 15 without turning our backs on the babies?
Really! I commented on this post before I read all the other crap going on and it's really sad. Drag, indeed.
Yes, I'm worried about her 3 kids, and their place in society, as college isn't really on the brain at all with my friend, and I'm actually dying to ask her how she feels about her kids' future and if college is something she (and they) are thinking about. My friend is very caring, and I believe she's in love with the idea of being depended on, mothering, and taking care of herself. But deep down I know she may feel that her kids are all she has and having another fills some kind of void. :? I don't know how to approach her about this "idea" of hers that having more kids seems to be the answer, without hurting her feelings.
It sounds like you consider yourself to be so much better than others...those who do not share your opinion.
In the second I was pleading which you did not open and I say that is quite disrespectful.
To read someones pm is one thing to answer is another.
It is the shutting out of others that really shows one's true colors.
And it is not a request for a relationship :? ...get over yourself.
I never called you a child and like I said it takes an insightful person to understand others and you don't won't or can't give it a try.
Oh yes I love the rolling eyes...do you do that to people in person too?
Very disrespectful and hurtful but not surprising.
Clearing you think yourself better than most and perhaps enjoy the put downs.
It's a tough situation... I would say that you should maybe suggest therapy... but with working, going to school and being a single mom... if she's not in counseling...I am sure she thinks she doesn't have "time" for it.... Probably, as her friend, your only approach that would maybe be "heard," without causing her to pull away from you, would be to suggest to her, when she mentions it... that she sure seems to have her hands full now. I am sure you have probably already done that though... My only other thought is the "it takes a village to raise a child approach" and just try to make yourself as present in their lives as you can... exposing the kids to new things, concepts, experiences etc.... I can tell you clearly care about her and the kids... so that is a great thing right there!
Yes, contraception use would be great, but we don't need to INSIST that poor people use contraception - we just need to ALLOW them to use contraception. There's a reason why unintended pregnancy rates & abortion rates rise in direct INVERSE proportion to income - and why this country had the highest unintended pregnancy rate in the developed world. It's a SYSTEMS issue. Poor people WANT to prevent pregnancy - even more than the rest of us, I'd say - but the system is set up to make this a lot more difficult the less money you have. Poor women have very little chance of being able to access the most reliable forms of birth control. And now Congress is about to take away even what slim chance they do have.
So if we want poor people to have fewer kids, all we have to do is fight to improve access to contraception. This is an easy solution that we know will work if we all do our part - and yet we don't. We can do this by increasing - not eliminating - funding to such programs as Title X family planning (which saves us $3.74 in averted pregnancies for every $1 spent - and that's just counting costs through the first year of life) and Planned Parenthood (which is the largest birth control provider in the nation, especially for poor people). But WE have to stand up and do our parts to make this happen; it's just not possible for the poor people to do it alone, no matter how hard they try.
Uhmmm.... no...I called people who irresponsibly encouraged someone they do not know to KILL ANOTHER PERSON... who they also do not know.. MORONS... Apparently, you continue to believe that was responsible and sound advice...
That is why I had no desire to communicate with you further.
Since you clearly MUST always have the last word... and like to play martyr... please feel free to respond... (not in a PM!!... just making that clear!!!) ... but i will not comment back to you at all... so let the insults fly if you must... ADIOS.
Clearly you are correct, Jeanwah... but especially for the working poor... access to affordable contraception can be VERY challenging... and if they cut the funding to Planned Parenthood... it's going to be a whole lot worse... :evil:
:? :? :?
Yeah, I edited my post to include that contraception should be readily available. It seems that the only funding not being cut is military. Which is disgusting.
EXACTLY!
Thank you!
I should have been more clear. I don't mean that "ALL folks who are poor don't want more kids". I just mean that we can't say that poor folks want to prevent pregnancy any LESS than the rest of us do - and, based on my vast experience with poor people's reproductive decision-making processes, my best guess would be that (given their situation) they may be even more inclined to want to prevent pregnancy. Your friend is obviously an exception - and I'm sure she's not the only one - but I don't think she's the rule (which is why I left out the part about her in my response).
I don't know if you also meant to say I was generalizing about this being a systems issue, but there's plenty of evidence that this is true. Do you think, as well as urging people to use protection, that we should address the fact that they simply can't use reliable protection if it's not available to them?
EDIT: Sorry - I didn't see that you had edited your post.
I thought you were letting me have the last word
you know this child thing came from a quote I say to my children
"Child there are no guarantees in life only probabilities"
I was quoting myself to _ but she missed the message and got defensive.
And yes I'm 55 my kids are approaching and over the age of many here... I meant the young people here are children to me.
Clearly that is a sin I guess but its ok to swear at people call them a martyr, hypocrite, moron etc. Go figure
This is where the disrespectful rolling eyes come in but thats not nice, I don't go there.
Now is this the end or are we beating this dead horse?
Because people here have asked you and me to be civil and I know I can be and I think you all can too.
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Heart.... warmed
Hugs