Bush's torture admission is a dismal moment for democracy

polaris_x

Byrnzie wrote:

I can't believe I'm attempting to have a debate with someone who believes in Satan.

A classic case of pissing in the wind.

you are debating with people who have been indoctrined that america is about freedom and justice ... they have no concept of history nor america's place in it ... that whatever they do overseas is in the name of freedom and liberty ...

Godfather.

polaris_x wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

as I said no more than you or anybody else on this board but personally yes I think Saddam had his hand in there some how and I think he helped to fund the attack but thats just my opinion.

Godfather.

ok ... so based on this ... i think the people of kentucky were responsible for 9/11 ... i've got no evidence whatsoever but i got that feeling ... so, let's just bomb the shit out of kentucky ... :(

hayyy now your catching on....to what I don't know, your post was an attack on me with no provocation
this tells me more about you than I need to know,have a nice day.

Godfather.

g under p

wolfamongwolves wrote:

Electric_Delta wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

My comment was in response to terrorist interrogations, not arms sales to Saddam Hussein. However, we've made our fair share of mistakes. You will never hear me say the United States has a perfect track record on foreign policy.

By the way, as it relates to the U.N. - how can I take any organization seriously when it appoints Saudi Arabia to a Women's Rights Panel?

I get it: It's a 'mistake' when you support dictators who kill and torture their own people, but it's o.k for you to kill and torture those same people when those same dictators get a little too independent.

Think what you want.

Terrorists deserve no mercy. Period.

You are aware that there are many ordinary people (in Iraq, for example) who consider the US to be terrorists, right? You are aware that it is a subjective term, right? You are aware that torture is an act of terrorism, and that your ex-president has openly admitted that the US army engaged in these acts under his watch and with his full knowledge, right?

So you must apply your "Terrorists deserve no mercy. Period." dictum equally to them. Right?[/quote]

I have to agree with you here. Many in the world DO see the Americans as Terriorists with their invasion and occupation of 2 Middle Eastern countries. IF we were to invade a country it should have been Saudi Arabia in that a majority of the 9/11 terriorists were from Saudi Arabia. However they are are friends and we don't attack our friends until they become too independent from our needs and wants. You then become our enemy and your country becomes destined to be destroyed.

Peace

Byrnzie

Godfather. wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

Your opinion is that Sadaam funded the attacks on 9/11? And what do you base your opinion on?

there is no proof that he did or did not it's just my opinion, what are you looking for ?

Godfather.

What am I looking for? Some integrity would be nice.

There's no proof that he didn't, therefore you think he did? That's some real hard logic right there. The same kind of logic that the U.S and British governments used to sell the war to the masses in the first place: 'The weapons inspectors haven't found any WMD's, therefore Sadaam must be hiding them from us and so we should invade Iraq.'

polaris_x

Godfather. wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

as I said no more than you or anybody else on this board but personally yes I think Saddam had his hand in there some how and I think he helped to fund the attack but thats just my opinion.

Godfather.

ok ... so based on this ... i think the people of kentucky were responsible for 9/11 ... i've got no evidence whatsoever but i got that feeling ... so, let's just bomb the shit out of kentucky ... :(

hayyy now your catching on....to what I don't know, your post was an attack on me with no provocation
this tells me more about you than I need to know,have a nice day.

Godfather.

your gonna play this card on this post? ... really!?? ... you should really read what you post on here ...

Byrnzie

OnTheEdge wrote:

So now you want to attack my beliefs. :roll:

You're a good debater Byrnzie, and I can tell your a smart person. But as soon as you do not agree with something you turn to anger, accusations and personal attacks......typical liberal.

I'm not typical anything. And I'm also not angry.

OnTheEdge

Byrnzie wrote:

OnTheEdge wrote:

IF our government supported Saddam while he was torturing and killing people does not mean that I did.

There's no 'If' about it.

Are you saying that it's wrong for Sadaam to torture and kill Iraqi's but o.k for Americans to kill and torture Iraqi's?

Show me where I stated that I supported torturing Iraqis. I have questioned waterboarding as torture. Yes, I could be wrong on this. But when somebody is waterboarded 180 times I either question how torturing is it, or KSM is one tough cookie. If we tortured any innocent Iraqi, then yes, I have a problem with that. But everyone is so quick to judge americans when nobody seems to have a problem with the things Saddam has done. If someone was in your house trying to kill you, and I came in and shot him for you, would you call me a murderer?

Byrnzie

OnTheEdge wrote:

If someone was in your house trying to kill you, and I came in and shot him for you, would you call me a murderer?

Your analogy is incorrect. You didn't just come into my house and shoot the murderer, you then shot me, my family, and all my neighbours, and then spent the next 6 years wrecking my country.

polaris_x

OnTheEdge wrote:

Show me where I stated that I supported torturing Iraqis. I have questioned waterboarding as torture. Yes, I could be wrong on this. But when somebody is waterboarded 180 times I either question how torturing is it, or KSM is one tough cookie. If we tortured any innocent Iraqi, then yes, I have a problem with that. But everyone is so quick to judge americans when nobody seems to have a problem with the things Saddam has done. If someone was in your house trying to kill you, and I came in and shot him for you, would you call me a murderer?

if only you could apply that same logic from the other side ...

wolfamongwolves

Hey, g under p,

would you mind editing your post so it doesn't look like I said what Electric Delta said?! :? Cheers!

(By the way, you make a sage point.)

wolfamongwolves

OnTheEdge wrote:

...nobody seems to have a problem with the things Saddam has done...

I don't think there's anyone suggesting that!

I think all anyone is saying is - how can the US justify committing acts of torture and terrorism, while simultaneously condemning others' acts of torture and terrorism?

And, for the record, "What Saddam did was worse than what we did" is not an adequate response.

JonnyPistachio

Electric_Delta wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

Electric_Delta wrote:

If lives are at stake, why not extract the information however necessary? It's absurd to put lives in jeopardy because we might hurt someone's "feelings."

Are you suggesting that using torture is Ok to get info?

Absolutely.

Every human being is created with certain rights and dignities endowed to them by God, I believe.

However, if you WILLINGLY participate in activities meant to take innocent life, and you get caught, you forfeit those dignities. I'm not going to pity the terrorist who wishes to slaughter my fellow countrymen. If they're witholding knowledge which can save innocent life, then waterboard them until they squeal. They've fofeited those rights and those dignities in favor of MURDER.

I seriously suggest you go back and read Byrzies posts on page 7.

Do you completely disregard the fact that most admissions as a result of torture are false?

Byrnzie

Everyone interested in the subjects of torture, terrorism, and resistance to colonialism should watch this movie:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=136764&p=3091082&hilit=the+battle+of+algiers#p3091082

cajunkiwi

OnTheEdge wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

I can't believe I'm attempting to have a debate with someone who believes in Satan.

A classic case of pissing in the wind.

So now you want to attack my beliefs. :roll:

You're a good debater Byrnzie, and I can tell your a smart person. But as soon as you do not agree with something you turn to anger, accusations and personal attacks......typical liberal.

Yes, because heaven knows conservatives have done nothing but take the moral high ground since Obama took office.

Unless you consider the fact that Obama gets 4x the number of death threats Bush did to be an example of disagreeing with someone peacefully and calmly lol

JonnyPistachio

g under p wrote:

I have to agree with you here. Many in the world DO see the Americans as Terriorists with their invasion and occupation of 2 Middle Eastern countries. IF we were to invade a country it should have been Saudi Arabia in that a majority of the 9/11 terriorists were from Saudi Arabia. However they are are friends and we don't attack our friends until they become too independent from our needs and wants. You then become our enemy and your country becomes destined to be destroyed.

Peace

I agree. Not enough people in the US are able to think for one minute that we might be considered terrorists in some circles. This should be of utmost concern because we are creating a whole new batch of people who 'hate' us and are going to grow up with the desire to retaliate because thier families have been torn apart in the middle east.

polaris_x

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I agree. Not enough people in the US are able to think for one minute that we might be considered terrorists in some circles. This should be of utmost concern because we are creating a whole new batch of people who 'hate' us and are going to grow up with the desire to retaliate because thier families have been torn apart in the middle east.

exactly! ... i think if people read even the last 30 years of american foreign policy ... it would shed some light as to why the US is one of the most if not the most hated country in the world ...

Godfather.

polaris_x wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I agree. Not enough people in the US are able to think for one minute that we might be considered terrorists in some circles. This should be of utmost concern because we are creating a whole new batch of people who 'hate' us and are going to grow up with the desire to retaliate because thier families have been torn apart in the middle east.

exactly! ... i think if people read even the last 30 years of american foreign policy ... it would shed some light as to why the US is one of the most if not the most hated country in the world ...

and yet they come here any way possible why is that ?

Godfather.

polaris_x

Godfather. wrote:

and yet they come here any way possible why is that ?

Godfather.

many people come from abject poverty ... many come from places where they earn $10 a day but would gladly stay for $15 ... many of these places have had their local economy affected by US intervention ...

if you look up the charts ... most documented immigrants to the US come from mexico and central america ... it's not like there is a huge onslaught of people from developed first world countries ...

in any case - people need to know what US foreign policy has done around the world before they cast judgement about people and cultures they know nothing about ...

cincybearcat

cajunkiwi wrote:

OnTheEdge wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

I can't believe I'm attempting to have a debate with someone who believes in Satan.

A classic case of pissing in the wind.

So now you want to attack my beliefs. :roll:

You're a good debater Byrnzie, and I can tell your a smart person. But as soon as you do not agree with something you turn to anger, accusations and personal attacks......typical liberal.

Yes, because heaven knows conservatives have done nothing but take the moral high ground since Obama took office.

Unless you consider the fact that Obama gets 4x the number of death threats Bush did to be an example of disagreeing with someone peacefully and calmly lol

Less crazies...they are just calling more. Repub. crazies work and can pay phone bills so they have more access.

gimmesometruth27

polaris_x wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

and yet they come here any way possible why is that ?

Godfather.

many people come from abject poverty ... many come from places where they earn $10 a day but would gladly stay for $15 ... many of these places have had their local economy affected by US intervention ...

if you look up the charts ... most documented immigrants to the US come from mexico and central america ... it's not like there is a huge onslaught of people from developed first world countries ...

in any case - people need to know what US foreign policy has done around the world before they cast judgement about people and cultures they know nothing about ...

now why would people need to know things like THAT???

lol, i think if people did a little self examination of their own country's foreign policy they would agree with you, me, byrnzie, JP, wolfamomgwolves, gunderp and others. most of them arguing for the virtuousness of america have proven to be ignorant of many of the facts that we have read and posted here.