Bush's torture admission is a dismal moment for democracy

Byrnzie

Electric_Delta wrote:

If lives are at stake, why not extract the information however necessary? It's absurd to put lives in jeopardy because we might hurt someone's "feelings."

http://web.archive.org/web/200804031116 ... ng_1.shtml

Why is torture wrong?




The reasons why torture is wrong can be divided into reasons of pure principle and reasons based on the bad consequences of torture. Both sorts of reason are valid.

Reasons of principle


* Torture treats the victim as a means to an end and not an end in themselves
o it treats the victim as a 'thing', not as a person with all the value that we associate with persons
o torturers often explicitly dehumanise their victims to make it easier to torture them
o it uses the physical body of the victim not as a component part of a person of value, but as a tool to achieve the aims of the torturer

[Torture] dehumanizes people by treating them as pawns to be manipulated through their pain.Kenneth Roth, Getting Away with Torture, Global Governance, 2005

* Torture is sometimes used to destroy the autonomy of the victim
o some societies have used torture to suppress independent thought and convert people to 'right-thinking'. The individual is tortured until they abandon their own views and beliefs and adopt those of the torturers. The victim ceases to be an 'end in themselves' but becomes just another means to support the regime of the torturer
* Torture violates the rights and human dignity of the victim, including
o the legal right to remain silent when questioned

Consequentialist reasons

Consequentialist reasons why torture is wrong

* Torture is a slippery slope - each act of torture makes it easier to accept the use of torture in the future
* Torture is an ineffective interrogation tool
o It may well produce false information because under torture a prisoner will eventually say anything to stop the pain - regardless of whether it is true
o Because of this the interrogator can never be 'sure' that they are getting the truth and will never know when to stop
o More effective methods of interrogation that don't involve torture are available
o If a suspect is tortured it may be impossible to prosecute them successfully - British common law excludes involuntary statements or confessions on the ground that such evidence is inherently unreliable
* Torture damages the humanity of the torturers
o Those who carry out torture are likely to become brutalised by their acts, and desensitised to humanity
o The more acts of torture a person carries out, the more likely they are to carry out torture
* Torture damages the institution that carries it out
o It damages the reputation and moral authority of the institution
o Its use is likely to produce internal dissent and so damage the integrity of the institution
o Using torture provides 'the enemy' with something they can exploit for propaganda

History offers no modern examples of the strategic effectiveness of harsh interrogation techniques, but it is replete with examples of the negative strategic effects such techniques have on the counterinsurgency force.Lou Dimarco, Losing the Moral Compass: Torture and Guerre Revolutionnaire in the Algerian War, Parameters, 2006

* State-approved torture is bad for the state

The use of torture is dishonourable. It corrupts and degrades the state which uses it and the legal system which accepts itLord Hoffmann, British judge

When the state itself beats and extorts, it can no longer be said to rest on foundations of morality and justice, but rather on force.Mordecai Kremnitzer quoted in Marcy Strauss, Torture, New York Law School Law Review, 2004

While the rest of the world is expected to abide by the UN Convention against Torture, for example, the Americans evaluate international law on the basis of whether it serves their interests.Excesses of Sex and Violence, Der Spiegel, May 2004

* Torture can create or strengthen opposition

The interrogations, torture and socialization of prison turned most of the men rounded up by Mubarak into hardened militants, thirsty for revenge: they would become the foot soldiers of terrorismGilles Kepel, The War for Muslim Minds, 2004

Not only will torture create a dedicated core of anti-American jihadists, their stories will lose us the "hearts and minds" campaign with the larger Muslim population.Jeannie L. Johnson, Exploiting Weakness in the Far Enemy Ideology, Strategic Insights, 2005

wolfamongwolves

Godfather. wrote:

...everybody needs to point the finger at somebody even if it does not matter anymore,
he's out he's history but instead of moving forward everybody looks back and points...
Godfather.

Godfather,

We've spent a few days debating elsewhere about how when you break the law, there are legal penalties you must pay. I believe you were pretty firm on this, and were of the opinion that no one should be permitted to get away with anything one iota.

Well, Mr Bush has admitted to complicity in torture, which is a crime against humanity. What he did still matters. If he were not someone you were ideologically partial to, I know you, of all people, would not be one to say, "well, it's over and done with, let's just forget it, shall we?"

For consistency's sake, don't dumb down our indignation to "Bush-bashing". The man has commited crimes. He should face trial.

OnTheEdge

lettingo, you say bush used 9/11 as a segue into iraq
and i will never believe otherwise

What does it matter what reason he used to go to Iraq? You say you understand that Saddam was a dangerous weapon, so clearly you must believe that it's best that we removed him from power.

Byrnzie

OnTheEdge wrote:

What does it matter what reason he used to go to Iraq?

Because American and British soldiers have been killed because of that bullshit war, not to mention all the Iraqi dead whose country has been wrecked.
But as long as it's not you making any kind of sacrifice then why should you give a fuck, right? Sending a bunch of American servicemen and women off to invade and occupy a foreign country on the basis of a bunch of lies doesn't effect you personally. It's just something you see on t.v, and will probably help inspire the creation of a bunch of new games for your playstation.

Oh, and there's also a pesky little thing called international law.

OnTheEdge

Byrnzie wrote:

OnTheEdge wrote:

What does it matter what reason he used to go to Iraq?

Because American and British soldiers have been killed because of that bullshit war, not to mention all the Iraqi dead whose country has been wrecked.
But as long as it's not you making any kind of sacrifice then why should you give a fuck, right? Sending a bunch of American servicemen and women off to invade and occupy a foreign country on the basis of a bunch of lies doesn't effect you personally. It's just something you see on t.v, and will probably help inspire the creation of a bunch of new games for your playstation.

Oh, and there's also a pesky little thing called international law.

I don't play playstation, I have an x-box360.

So do think Iraq is going to be a better place without Saddam?

Also, the way you always take one little part of a post to try to make your point is annoying. I believe you only see what you want to see.

gimmesometruth27

Byrnzie wrote:

OnTheEdge wrote:

What does it matter what reason he used to go to Iraq?

Because American and British soldiers have been killed because of that bullshit war, not to mention all the Iraqi dead whose country has been wrecked.
But as long as it's not you making any kind of sacrifice then why should you give a fuck, right? Sending a bunch of American servicemen and women off to invade and occupy a foreign country on the basis of a bunch of lies doesn't effect you personally. It's just something you see on t.v, and will probably help inspire the creation of a bunch of new games for your playstation.

Oh, and there's also a pesky little thing called international law.

very well stated. thanks for saving me a long winded reply lol...

OnTheEdge

I have to question how torturous our torture is. Waterboarding? I'd like to try it. KSM was waterboarded 181 times. Doesn't sound very torturing to me.

If the tables were turned, and they were torturing us, They'd be chopping of fingers and toes, sticking needles in our eyes, or pulling on our limbs until the joints pop.

Not saying it's ok, but we're definately more humane then how combatants have treated us.

Godfather.

WAW,Byrnzie,Cosmo why is it so important to you three to change my opinion or try and make me think that you are with out question right ? I have a great understanding of responsibility I believe hurting or killing does not go without punishment but I also believe that we have a right to live without the threat of attack in our country(yes 9/11) and all these people involved need to be held responsible for what they have done and unfortunately they are not going to voluntarily give any info,politics and war are not a pretty game country's around the world have done horrible things and because of that one of the after effects in this country are your freedoms to talk as you wish in America, you say bush should be punished for this water board thing so do you think that the people that attack our country should be punished ?
also non of us have have any idea what really is going on behind the scenes in Washington you just assume the US is throwing it's weight around and bullying other country's for no good reason and you really have no idea why,not that I or anyone else outside the white house does but I don't think that does not matters to you as long as you have that freedom to complain about things you don't fully understand.

and no I don't think any form of torture is ok but neither is attacking this this country and killing its citizens
you've heard the old saying "mess with bull and you get the horns".
some of us are proud of our country and have not taken for granted our freedom but enjoy yours anyway.

Godfather.

OnTheEdge

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

OnTheEdge wrote:

What does it matter what reason he used to go to Iraq?

Because American and British soldiers have been killed because of that bullshit war, not to mention all the Iraqi dead whose country has been wrecked.
But as long as it's not you making any kind of sacrifice then why should you give a fuck, right? Sending a bunch of American servicemen and women off to invade and occupy a foreign country on the basis of a bunch of lies doesn't effect you personally. It's just something you see on t.v, and will probably help inspire the creation of a bunch of new games for your playstation.

Oh, and there's also a pesky little thing called international law.

very well stated. thanks for saving me a long winded reply lol...

Angry and full of accusations is what you call a well stated reply?

gimmesometruth27

OnTheEdge wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

OnTheEdge wrote:

What does it matter what reason he used to go to Iraq?

Because American and British soldiers have been killed because of that bullshit war, not to mention all the Iraqi dead whose country has been wrecked.
But as long as it's not you making any kind of sacrifice then why should you give a fuck, right? Sending a bunch of American servicemen and women off to invade and occupy a foreign country on the basis of a bunch of lies doesn't effect you personally. It's just something you see on t.v, and will probably help inspire the creation of a bunch of new games for your playstation.

Oh, and there's also a pesky little thing called international law.

I don't play playstation, I have an x-box360.

So do think Iraq is going to be a better place without Saddam?

Also, the way you always take one little part of a post to try to make your point is annoying. I believe you only see what you want to see.

if you see nothing wrong with invading a country based on bullshit lies that have been proven to be lies, and many subsequest justifications to make a case for that bullshit war, then you really have a problem with right and wrong that you so ardently tried to defend in the now dead death penalty thread.

you say "what does it matter what reason he used to go to iraq?"

it matters plenty. first bush said they were complicit in 9/11, when in fact intelligence at the time said that saddam and al qaeda were at odds with each other and did not like each other and had no working relationship. then, he said iraq had weapons of mass destruction, which hans blix and the international weapons inspectors had been saying all along that there were no wmds in the country. then joe wilson said that the report that saddam was trying to get yellow cake in niger was a complete fabrication and he proved that they were not seeking yellow cake, so what happens? his wife, a covert cia operative is outed, which was a treasonable offense punishable by hanging. THEN the story was "saddam was the man who tried to kill my dad." and the reason to go in was to "bring freedom to the people of iraq". which diverted us from the original mission of defeating al qauda in afghanistan. we diverted all of those resources to iraq, and bin laden never was caught, al qaeda regrouped and is now as strong as ever, and the taliban is making a comeback in afghanistan. and thousands of our men and women were killed. thousands who will never come home sent there by an old man with an ax to grind who sought something that his father failed to do. iraq was and never was a threat to us. you try telling it to a dead soldier's family that the reason we went there does not matter, and that even if it was based on lies it was a just cause. i will bet my house you don't have the cajones to do that.

you do not see anything wrong with the way this government build up a false case for war in iraq?

gimmesometruth27

OnTheEdge wrote:

I have to question how torturous our torture is. Waterboarding? I'd like to try it. KSM was waterboarded 181 times. Doesn't sound very torturing to me.

If the tables were turned, and they were torturing us, They'd be chopping of fingers and toes, sticking needles in our eyes, or pulling on our limbs until the joints pop.

Not saying it's ok, but we're definately more humane then how combatants have treated us.

why not google it, there are videos of waterboarding all over the web.

waterboarding is simulated drowing.

how about you lie down on a board blindfolded while a few men hold you down, shove a towel in your mouth and pour water down your open throat and you tell me if it is torture or not. seriously, volunteer to have it done to you and report back what you experienced. if it is not torture then why are wold bodies including the united states classifying waterboarding as torture? 181 times that he feared for his life. no wonder the info we got from him was inconsistent.

give me you, a waterboard and an hour and you will confess to nailing jesus to a cross...

Byrnzie

OnTheEdge wrote:

So do think Iraq is going to be a better place without Saddam?

A better place? 1 million dead. 4-5 million displaced. The country's infrastructure destroyed. Ongoing sectarian violence. Al Qaeda operating freely in Iraq.

A better place? No. It's not a better place.

Not that that's the question we should be asking. The question we should be asking is 'What right did we have to invade and destroy that country?'

Byrnzie

Godfather. wrote:

WAW,Byrnzie,Cosmo why is it so important to you three to change my opinion or try and make me think that you are with out question right ? I have a great understanding of responsibility I believe hurting or killing does not go without punishment but I also believe that we have a right to live without the threat of attack in our country(yes 9/11) and all these people involved need to be held responsible for what they have done and unfortunately they are not going to voluntarily give any info,politics and war are not a pretty game country's around the world have done horrible things and because of that one of the after effects in this country are your freedoms to talk as you wish in America, you say bush should be punished for this water board thing so do you think that the people that attack our country should be punished ?
also non of us have have any idea what really is going on behind the scenes in Washington you just assume the US is throwing it's weight around and bullying other country's for no good reason and you really have no idea why,not that I or anyone else outside the white house does but I don't think that does not matters to you as long as you have that freedom to complain about things you don't fully understand.

and no I don't think any form of torture is ok but neither is attacking this this country and killing its citizens
you've heard the old saying "mess with bull and you get the horns".
some of us are proud of our country and have not taken for granted our freedom but enjoy yours anyway.

Godfather.

Do you think Iraq was responsible for 9/11?

Electric_Delta

JonnyPistachio wrote:

Electric_Delta wrote:

If lives are at stake, why not extract the information however necessary? It's absurd to put lives in jeopardy because we might hurt someone's "feelings."

Are you suggesting that using torture is Ok to get info?

Absolutely.

Every human being is created with certain rights and dignities endowed to them by God, I believe.

However, if you WILLINGLY participate in activities meant to take innocent life, and you get caught, you forfeit those dignities. I'm not going to pity the terrorist who wishes to slaughter my fellow countrymen. If they're witholding knowledge which can save innocent life, then waterboard them until they squeal. They've fofeited those rights and those dignities in favor of MURDER.

OnTheEdge

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

OnTheEdge wrote:

I have to question how torturous our torture is. Waterboarding? I'd like to try it. KSM was waterboarded 181 times. Doesn't sound very torturing to me.

If the tables were turned, and they were torturing us, They'd be chopping of fingers and toes, sticking needles in our eyes, or pulling on our limbs until the joints pop.

Not saying it's ok, but we're definately more humane then how combatants have treated us.

why not google it, there are videos of waterboarding all over the web.

waterboarding is simulated drowing.

how about you lie down on a board blindfolded while a few men hold you down, shove a towel in your mouth and pour water down your open throat and you tell me if it is torture or not. seriously, volunteer to have it done to you and report back what you experienced. if it is not torture then why are wold bodies including the united states classifying waterboarding as torture? 181 times that he feared for his life. no wonder the info we got from him was inconsistent.

give me you, a waterboard and an hour and you will confess to nailing jesus to a cross...

Like I said, I would try it. But still, neither you or Byrnzie have yet to answer my question.


To the part highlighted in color...................poor bastard, I really feel sorry for him. NOT!!!!!!

gimmesometruth27

OnTheEdge wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

OnTheEdge wrote:

I have to question how torturous our torture is. Waterboarding? I'd like to try it. KSM was waterboarded 181 times. Doesn't sound very torturing to me.

If the tables were turned, and they were torturing us, They'd be chopping of fingers and toes, sticking needles in our eyes, or pulling on our limbs until the joints pop.

Not saying it's ok, but we're definately more humane then how combatants have treated us.

why not google it, there are videos of waterboarding all over the web.

waterboarding is simulated drowing.

how about you lie down on a board blindfolded while a few men hold you down, shove a towel in your mouth and pour water down your open throat and you tell me if it is torture or not. seriously, volunteer to have it done to you and report back what you experienced. if it is not torture then why are wold bodies including the united states classifying waterboarding as torture? 181 times that he feared for his life. no wonder the info we got from him was inconsistent.

give me you, a waterboard and an hour and you will confess to nailing jesus to a cross...

Like I said, I would try it. But still, neither you or Byrnzie have yet to answer my question.


To the part highlighted in color...................poor bastard, I really feel sorry for him. NOT!!!!!!

i will not address yoru question because the assertion that all info gained from torture is credible is ridiculous. anyone with half a brain will tell you that.

OnTheEdge

Byrnzie wrote:

OnTheEdge wrote:

So do think Iraq is going to be a better place without Saddam?

A better place? 1 million dead. 4-5 million displaced. The country's infrastructure destroyed. Ongoing sectarian violence. Al Qaeda operating freely in Iraq.

A better place? No. It's not a better place.

Not that that's the question we should be asking. The question we should be asking is 'What right did we have to invade and destroy that country?'

I believe we have the right to remove an evil dictator from power that kills and tortures people in order to keep that power. And god bless to the soldiers that have made that happen.

Byrnzie

Electric_Delta wrote:

Every human being is created with certain rights and dignities endowed to them by God, I believe.

However, if you WILLINGLY participate in activities meant to take innocent life, and you get caught, you forfeit those dignities. I'm not going to pity the terrorist who wishes to slaughter my fellow countrymen. If they're witholding knowledge which can save innocent life, then waterboard them until they squeal. They've fofeited those rights and those dignities in favor of MURDER.

I think you'll find international law disagrees with you on this.

polaris_x

Godfather. wrote:

WAW,Byrnzie,Cosmo why is it so important to you three to change my opinion or try and make me think that you are with out question right ? I have a great understanding of responsibility I believe hurting or killing does not go without punishment but I also believe that we have a right to live without the threat of attack in our country(yes 9/11) and all these people involved need to be held responsible for what they have done and unfortunately they are not going to voluntarily give any info,politics and war are not a pretty game country's around the world have done horrible things and because of that one of the after effects in this country are your freedoms to talk as you wish in America, you say bush should be punished for this water board thing so do you think that the people that attack our country should be punished ?
also non of us have have any idea what really is going on behind the scenes in Washington you just assume the US is throwing it's weight around and bullying other country's for no good reason and you really have no idea why,not that I or anyone else outside the white house does but I don't think that does not matters to you as long as you have that freedom to complain about things you don't fully understand.

and no I don't think any form of torture is ok but neither is attacking this this country and killing its citizens
you've heard the old saying "mess with bull and you get the horns".
some of us are proud of our country and have not taken for granted our freedom but enjoy yours anyway.

Godfather.

this is the kind of response that makes me realize why the US gov't can go overseas and kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people without consequence ...

apparently this all started on 9/11 ... nothing americans did from vietnam to guatemala to chile to iran to anywhere in the world mattered ...

Byrnzie

OnTheEdge wrote:

I believe we have the right to remove an evil dictator from power that kills and tortures people in order to keep that power. And god bless to the soldiers that have made that happen.

No, you don't have that right.