Bush's torture admission is a dismal moment for democracy

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  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,473
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    You believe we should've turned our backs and ignored it.

    I believe we should have Ignored what?

    Do you think we hung Saddam because we just felt like it. Saddam treated people like dirt and was evil. He broke many laws and was a mass murderer that had the entire power of Iraq. We hung him because he deserved it. And you obviously feel that we should have ignored his evil actions and that Iraq was better with him rather then without him. Which is fine, that's your opinion. But why do I have to explain your opinion to you?
    you really have no clue of recent history do you? did you know that it was the iraqi governmente who hanged saddam, not us? they would never have deposed him nor caught him if we did not pay people to sell him out.

    people were better off under saddam. at least they had running water and electricity 24 hours a day. things that they do not have now... we bombed them back 100 years, destroyed their infrastructure and killed countless civilians that would be alive had we not "delivered them feedom"...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    You believe we should've turned our backs and ignored it.

    I believe we should have Ignored what?

    Do you think we hung Saddam because we just felt like it. Saddam treated people like dirt and was evil. He broke many laws and was a mass murderer that had the entire power of Iraq. We hung him because he deserved it. And you obviously feel that we should have ignored his evil actions and that Iraq was better with him rather then without him. Which is fine, that's your opinion. But why do I have to explain your opinion to you?

    You supported Sadaam when he was killing and torturing people. But that was just a mistake, right?
  • OnTheEdge
    OnTheEdge Posts: 1,300
    You supported Sadaam when he was killing and torturing people. But that was just a mistake, right?

    wth are you talking about?
  • Electric_Delta
    Electric_Delta Posts: 977
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Electric_Delta wrote:
    My comment was in response to terrorist interrogations, not arms sales to Saddam Hussein. However, we've made our fair share of mistakes. You will never hear me say the United States has a perfect track record on foreign policy.

    By the way, as it relates to the U.N. - how can I take any organization seriously when it appoints Saudi Arabia to a Women's Rights Panel?

    I get it: It's a 'mistake' when you support dictators who kill and torture their own people, but it's o.k for you to kill and torture those same people when those same dictators get a little too independent.

    Think what you want.

    Terrorists deserve no mercy. Period.
    Bristow, VA (5/13/10)
  • Electric_Delta
    Electric_Delta Posts: 977
    wolfamongwolves wrote:
    Electric_Delta wrote:
    Every human being is created with certain rights and dignities endowed to them by God, I believe....
    However, if you WILLINGLY participate in activities meant to take innocent life, and you get caught, you forfeit those dignities.
    Says who? If rights come from God, as you believe, why do you assume that you, a mere and fallible mortal, has the power to undermine them, or place limits on them according to nothing more reliable than just your opinion?

    The whole concept of rights necessarily depends on the notion that everyone is entitled to them, by the merit of being human, and regardless of who they are or what they have or have not done. No one has the right to take them away, even if they have violated someone else's rights. No one is entitled to make the subjective judgment that someone has "forfeited" their rights. To do so totally undermines the very notion of rights.
    Electric_Delta wrote:
    I'm not going to pity the terrorist who wishes to slaughter my fellow countrymen. If they're witholding knowledge which can save innocent life, then waterboard them until they squeal.

    Firstly, no one's talking about pity. We're talking about decency, civility, not sinking to the level of terrorists by commiting acts of terror ourselves.
    Secondly, many non-terrorists have been subjected to torture by the US.
    Thirdly, as many, many, many people have pointed out, and as there are reams of evidence to support, what a person under the mortal stress of torture tells you cannot be considered reliable or true. If you believed that someone was going to kill you unless you told them exactly what they wanted to hear, I'm sure you would at least consider telling them what they wanted to hear, whether it was true or not.

    Whether or not we agree on the morality of torture, the objective fact is it is ineffective, and therefore pointless.

    Kind of like debating on this board...pointless.
    Bristow, VA (5/13/10)
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    I believe we have the right to remove an evil dictator from power that kills and tortures people in order to keep that power. And god bless to the soldiers that have made that happen.

    uhhh ... why is it ok for you guys to torture but not the other side?

    also - although the documented torture techniques used by the US may not be militant enough for you ... you do realize that putting bags over people's heads and shipping them to Syria or wherever to get tortured "their" way is still the same thing ...


    What kind of torture did they face in Syria? Not challenging you on this, just asking.

    who knows ... it would be whatever torture you believe the other side to be conducting ...

    any response to the why its ok for you guys to torture but not the other side?
  • mysticweed
    mysticweed Posts: 3,710
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    lettingo, you say bush used 9/11 as a segue into iraq
    and i will never believe otherwise

    What does it matter what reason he used to go to Iraq? You say you understand that Saddam was a dangerous weapon, so clearly you must believe that it's best that we removed him from power.

    no i clearly stated that our invasion caused some mass destruction of its own
    i will clearly state now that i believe our invasion of iraq was wrong in that it was based upon conjecture, lies and the desire to pad the pockets of big oil and halliburton. Removing saddam from power was gravy.
    cheney pulled us back from iraq in desert storm calling it a quagmire,
    ceo's halliburton,
    then plows us right into that very quagmire.
    fuck 'em if they can't take a joke

    "what a long, strange trip it's been"
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Godfather. wrote:
    personally yes I think Saddam had his hand in there some how and I think he helped to fund the attack but thats just my opinion.

    Godfather.

    I think the world was created by a pink toad called Trevor. I also believe Trevor created the world after eating a Big Mac and taking a massive shit on some depleted Uranium left behind on a toilet seat after Scotland invaded Tierra Del Fuego in 1927.

    But that's just my opinion.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    You believe we should've turned our backs and ignored it.

    I believe we should have Ignored what?

    Do you think we hung Saddam because we just felt like it. Saddam treated people like dirt and was evil. He broke many laws and was a mass murderer that had the entire power of Iraq. We hung him because he deserved it. And you obviously feel that we should have ignored his evil actions and that Iraq was better with him rather then without him. Which is fine, that's your opinion. But why do I have to explain your opinion to you?

    again ... look in the mirror first ... and i say that figuratively ...
  • wolfamongwolves
    wolfamongwolves Posts: 2,414
    edited November 2010
    Electric_Delta wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Electric_Delta wrote:
    My comment was in response to terrorist interrogations, not arms sales to Saddam Hussein. However, we've made our fair share of mistakes. You will never hear me say the United States has a perfect track record on foreign policy.

    By the way, as it relates to the U.N. - how can I take any organization seriously when it appoints Saudi Arabia to a Women's Rights Panel?

    I get it: It's a 'mistake' when you support dictators who kill and torture their own people, but it's o.k for you to kill and torture those same people when those same dictators get a little too independent.

    Think what you want.

    Terrorists deserve no mercy. Period.
    You are aware that there are many ordinary people (in Iraq, for example) who consider the US to be terrorists, right? You are aware that it is a subjective term, right? You are aware that torture is an act of terrorism, and that your ex-president has openly admitted that the US army engaged in these acts under his watch and with his full knowledge, right?

    So you must apply your "Terrorists deserve no mercy. Period." dictum equally to them. Right?
    Post edited by wolfamongwolves on
    93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • OnTheEdge
    OnTheEdge Posts: 1,300
    did you know that it was the iraqi governmente who hanged saddam, not us? they would never have deposed him nor caught him if we did not pay people to sell him out.



    Yes, I was/am aware of this. Which speaks very loudly to me. They would have never HUNG him if it wasn't for america giving them our backs because they were too afraid of him.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    You supported Sadaam when he was killing and torturing people. But that was just a mistake, right?

    wth are you talking about?

    What am I talking about? I'm taking about the fact America supported Sadaam when he was killing and torturing people in the 1980's and at the end of the first Gulf War. Not everyone regards 9/11 as year zero.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Electric_Delta wrote:
    Terrorists deserve no mercy. Period.

    The U.S is the only country on Earth to have been formally charged with state terrorism by the International Court of Justice. What do you think about that?
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:
    personally yes I think Saddam had his hand in there some how and I think he helped to fund the attack but thats just my opinion.

    Godfather.

    I think the world was created by a pink toad called Trevor. I also believe Trevor created the world after eating a Big Mac and taking a massive shit on some depleted Uranium left behind on a toilet seat after Scotland invaded Tierra Del Fuego in 1927.

    But that's just my opinion.

    coming from you that sounds about right.

    Godfather.
  • wolfamongwolves
    wolfamongwolves Posts: 2,414
    edited November 2010
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    did you know that it was the iraqi governmente who hanged saddam, not us? they would never have deposed him nor caught him if we did not pay people to sell him out.



    Yes, I was/am aware of this. Which speaks very loudly to me. They would have never HUNG him if it wasn't for america giving them our backs because they were too afraid of him.
    Off topic, but just for the record:

    "—Usage note
    Hang has two forms for the past tense and past participle, hanged and hung. The historically older form hanged is now used exclusively in the sense of causing or putting to death: He was sentenced to be hanged by the neck until dead".



    ... somehow, I feel a little empty inside that my 1,500th post wasn't a bit less... y'know... geeky

    ... oh well. :?
    Post edited by wolfamongwolves on
    93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • OnTheEdge
    OnTheEdge Posts: 1,300
    Byrnzie wrote:
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    You supported Sadaam when he was killing and torturing people. But that was just a mistake, right?

    wth are you talking about?

    What am I talking about? I'm taking about the fact America supported Sadaam when he was killing and torturing people in the 1980's and at the end of the first Gulf War. Not everyone regards 9/11 as year zero.


    IF our government supported Saddam while he was torturing and killing people does not mean that I did.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Godfather. wrote:
    as I said no more than you or anybody else on this board but personally yes I think Saddam had his hand in there some how and I think he helped to fund the attack but thats just my opinion.

    Godfather.

    ok ... so based on this ... i think the people of kentucky were responsible for 9/11 ... i've got no evidence whatsoever but i got that feeling ... so, let's just bomb the shit out of kentucky ... :(
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Do you think Iraq was responsible for 9/11?

    as I said no more than you or anybody else on this board but personally yes I think Saddam had his hand in there some how and I think he helped to fund the attack but thats just my opinion.

    Godfather.

    Your opinion is that Sadaam funded the attacks on 9/11? And what do you base your opinion on?

    there is no proof that he did or did not it's just my opinion, what are you looking for ?

    Godfather.
  • OnTheEdge
    OnTheEdge Posts: 1,300
    edited November 2010
    Byrnzie wrote:
    I can't believe I'm attempting to have a debate with someone who believes in Satan.

    A classic case of pissing in the wind.


    So now you want to attack my beliefs. :roll:

    You're a good debater Byrnzie, and I can tell your a smart person. But as soon as you do not agree with something you turn to anger, accusations and personal attacks......typical liberal.
    Post edited by OnTheEdge on
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    OnTheEdge wrote:
    IF our government supported Saddam while he was torturing and killing people does not mean that I did.


    There's no 'If' about it.

    Are you saying that it's wrong for Sadaam to torture and kill Iraqi's but o.k for Americans to kill and torture Iraqi's?

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