Bush's torture admission is a dismal moment for democracy

Electric_Delta

Byrnzie wrote:

Electric_Delta wrote:

Every human being is created with certain rights and dignities endowed to them by God, I believe.

However, if you WILLINGLY participate in activities meant to take innocent life, and you get caught, you forfeit those dignities. I'm not going to pity the terrorist who wishes to slaughter my fellow countrymen. If they're witholding knowledge which can save innocent life, then waterboard them until they squeal. They've fofeited those rights and those dignities in favor of MURDER.

I think you'll find international law disagrees with you on this.

Yeah, and it's a bullshit system which defends the killers. Who gives a shit what the U.N. says? We don't owe them anything.

polaris_x

OnTheEdge wrote:

I believe we have the right to remove an evil dictator from power that kills and tortures people in order to keep that power. And god bless to the soldiers that have made that happen.

uhhh ... why is it ok for you guys to torture but not the other side?

also - although the documented torture techniques used by the US may not be militant enough for you ... you do realize that putting bags over people's heads and shipping them to Syria or wherever to get tortured "their" way is still the same thing ...

Byrnzie

Electric_Delta wrote:

Yeah, and it's a bullshit system which defends the killers. Who gives a shit what the U.N. says? We don't owe them anything.

It was America that supported him when he was killing and torturing people. You sold him his chemical wepaons before and after he was gassing the Kurds and you supported him when he massacred the Shiite Militia's in the South at the end of the first Gulf War. What have you got to say about that?

OnTheEdge

Byrnzie wrote:

OnTheEdge wrote:

I believe we have the right to remove an evil dictator from power that kills and tortures people in order to keep that power. And god bless to the soldiers that have made that happen.

No, you don't have that right.

O.K. Understood.
I believe it's the right thing to do. You believe we should've turned our backs and ignored it.

OnTheEdge

Byrnzie wrote:

Electric_Delta wrote:

Yeah, and it's a bullshit system which defends the killers. Who gives a shit what the U.N. says? We don't owe them anything.

It was America that supported him when he was killing and torturing people. You sold him his chemical wepaons before and after he was gassing the Kurds and you supported him when he massacred the Shiite Militia's in the South at the end of the first Gulf War. What have you got to say about that?

Again, another accusation. Where did I say I supported this?

Godfather.

Byrnzie wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

WAW,Byrnzie,Cosmo why is it so important to you three to change my opinion or try and make me think that you are with out question right ? I have a great understanding of responsibility I believe hurting or killing does not go without punishment but I also believe that we have a right to live without the threat of attack in our country(yes 9/11) and all these people involved need to be held responsible for what they have done and unfortunately they are not going to voluntarily give any info,politics and war are not a pretty game country's around the world have done horrible things and because of that one of the after effects in this country are your freedoms to talk as you wish in America, you say bush should be punished for this water board thing so do you think that the people that attack our country should be punished ?
also non of us have have any idea what really is going on behind the scenes in Washington you just assume the US is throwing it's weight around and bullying other country's for no good reason and you really have no idea why,not that I or anyone else outside the white house does but I don't think that does not matters to you as long as you have that freedom to complain about things you don't fully understand.

and no I don't think any form of torture is ok but neither is attacking this this country and killing its citizens
you've heard the old saying "mess with bull and you get the horns".
some of us are proud of our country and have not taken for granted our freedom but enjoy yours anyway.

Godfather.

Do you think Iraq was responsible for 9/11?

as I said no more than you or anybody else on this board but personally yes I think Saddam had his hand in there some how and I think he helped to fund the attack but thats just my opinion.

Godfather.

OnTheEdge

polaris_x wrote:

OnTheEdge wrote:

I believe we have the right to remove an evil dictator from power that kills and tortures people in order to keep that power. And god bless to the soldiers that have made that happen.

uhhh ... why is it ok for you guys to torture but not the other side?

also - although the documented torture techniques used by the US may not be militant enough for you ... you do realize that putting bags over people's heads and shipping them to Syria or wherever to get tortured "their" way is still the same thing ...

What kind of torture did they face in Syria? Not challenging you on this, just asking.

Byrnzie

OnTheEdge wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

Electric_Delta wrote:

Yeah, and it's a bullshit system which defends the killers. Who gives a shit what the U.N. says? We don't owe them anything.

It was America that supported him when he was killing and torturing people. You sold him his chemical wepaons before and after he was gassing the Kurds and you supported him when he massacred the Shiite Militia's in the South at the end of the first Gulf War. What have you got to say about that?

Again, another accusation. Where did I say I supported this?

I didn't say you supported it. My post was a response to Electric Delta.

Byrnzie

Godfather. wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

Do you think Iraq was responsible for 9/11?

as I said no more than you or anybody else on this board but personally yes I think Saddam had his hand in there some how and I think he helped to fund the attack but thats just my opinion.

Godfather.

Your opinion is that Sadaam funded the attacks on 9/11? And what do you base your opinion on?

OnTheEdge

Byrnzie wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

WAW,Byrnzie,Cosmo why is it so important to you three to change my opinion or try and make me think that you are with out question right ? I have a great understanding of responsibility I believe hurting or killing does not go without punishment but I also believe that we have a right to live without the threat of attack in our country(yes 9/11) and all these people involved need to be held responsible for what they have done and unfortunately they are not going to voluntarily give any info,politics and war are not a pretty game country's around the world have done horrible things and because of that one of the after effects in this country are your freedoms to talk as you wish in America, you say bush should be punished for this water board thing so do you think that the people that attack our country should be punished ?
also non of us have have any idea what really is going on behind the scenes in Washington you just assume the US is throwing it's weight around and bullying other country's for no good reason and you really have no idea why,not that I or anyone else outside the white house does but I don't think that does not matters to you as long as you have that freedom to complain about things you don't fully understand.

and no I don't think any form of torture is ok but neither is attacking this this country and killing its citizens
you've heard the old saying "mess with bull and you get the horns".
some of us are proud of our country and have not taken for granted our freedom but enjoy yours anyway.

Godfather.

Do you think Iraq was responsible for 9/11?

Personally, I don't care wither he did or not. He was satan trapped in a mans body. Satan does no good for this planet. Satan must be removed. But to answer the question. No, I don't think he did.

Byrnzie

OnTheEdge wrote:

You believe we should've turned our backs and ignored it.

I believe we should have Ignored what?

OnTheEdge

I didn't say you supported it. My post was a response to Electric Delta.


Yeah, actually you did......along with every other american.

Byrnzie

OnTheEdge wrote:

Personally, I don't care wither he did or not. He was satan trapped in a mans body. Satan does no good for this planet. Satan must be removed. But to answer the question. No, I don't think he did.

So let's get this straight:

Electric Delta says Americans shouldn't give a fuck about the U.N because you don't owe them anything.
Godfather says he's of the opinion that Sadaam had a hand in 9/11.
And On the Edge thinks Sadaam was Satan and so had to be removed.


Thanks. I think I'm starting to understand now.

Electric_Delta

Byrnzie wrote:

Electric_Delta wrote:

Yeah, and it's a bullshit system which defends the killers. Who gives a shit what the U.N. says? We don't owe them anything.

It was America that supported him when he was killing and torturing people. You sold him his chemical wepaons before and after he was gassing the Kurds and you supported him when he massacred the Shiite Militia's in the South at the end of the first Gulf War. What have you got to say about that?

My comment was in response to terrorist interrogations, not arms sales to Saddam Hussein. However, we've made our fair share of mistakes. You will never hear me say the United States has a perfect track record on foreign policy.

By the way, as it relates to the U.N. - how can I take any organization seriously when it appoints Saudi Arabia to a Women's Rights Panel?

gimmesometruth27

here ya go ontheedge...mancow felt the same way you do about waterboarding, then he got waterboarded and changed his opinion...there are videos of it on the link and you can see that he broke fairly easily and very quickly...

Mancow Waterboarded (VIDEO): Conservative Radio Host Say It's Torture

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/2 ... 06906.html



Erich "Mancow" Muller, a Chicago-based conservative radio host, recently decided to silence critics of waterboarding once and for all. He would undergo the procedure himself, and then he would be able to confidently convince others that it is not, in fact, torture.

Or so he thought. Instead, Muller came out convinced.

"It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke," Mancow said. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back... It was instantaneous... and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."

"I wanted to prove it wasn't torture," Mancow said. "They cut off our heads, we put water on their face... I got voted to do this but I really thought 'I'm going to laugh this off.' "


And here's his conclusion:


Christopher Hitchens underwent nearly the same experiment last year. He, too, concluded that waterboarding is torture.

Byrnzie

OnTheEdge wrote:

I didn't say you supported it. My post was a response to Electric Delta.


Yeah, actually you did......along with every other american.

What?

wolfamongwolves

Electric_Delta wrote:

Every human being is created with certain rights and dignities endowed to them by God, I believe....
However, if you WILLINGLY participate in activities meant to take innocent life, and you get caught, you forfeit those dignities.

Says who? If rights come from God, as you believe, why do you assume that you, a mere and fallible mortal, has the power to undermine them, or place limits on them according to nothing more reliable than just your opinion?

The whole concept of rights necessarily depends on the notion that everyone is entitled to them, by the merit of being human, and regardless of who they are or what they have or have not done. No one has the right to take them away, even if they have violated someone else's rights. No one is entitled to make the subjective judgment that someone has "forfeited" their rights. To do so totally undermines the very notion of rights.

Electric_Delta wrote:

I'm not going to pity the terrorist who wishes to slaughter my fellow countrymen. If they're witholding knowledge which can save innocent life, then waterboard them until they squeal.

Firstly, no one's talking about pity. We're talking about decency, civility, not sinking to the level of terrorists by commiting acts of terror ourselves.
Secondly, many non-terrorists have been subjected to torture by the US.
Thirdly, as many, many, many people have pointed out, and as there are reams of evidence to support, what a person under the mortal stress of torture tells you cannot be considered reliable or true. If you believed that someone was going to kill you unless you told them exactly what they wanted to hear, I'm sure you would at least consider telling them what they wanted to hear, whether it was true or not.

Whether or not we agree on the morality of torture, the objective fact is it is ineffective, and therefore pointless.

OnTheEdge

Byrnzie wrote:

OnTheEdge wrote:

You believe we should've turned our backs and ignored it.

I believe we should have Ignored what?

Do you think we hung Saddam because we just felt like it. Saddam treated people like dirt and was evil. He broke many laws and was a mass murderer that had the entire power of Iraq. We hung him because he deserved it. And you obviously feel that we should have ignored his evil actions and that Iraq was better with him rather then without him. Which is fine, that's your opinion. But why do I have to explain your opinion to you?

Byrnzie

Electric_Delta wrote:

My comment was in response to terrorist interrogations, not arms sales to Saddam Hussein. However, we've made our fair share of mistakes. You will never hear me say the United States has a perfect track record on foreign policy.

By the way, as it relates to the U.N. - how can I take any organization seriously when it appoints Saudi Arabia to a Women's Rights Panel?

I get it: It's a 'mistake' when you support dictators who kill and torture their own people, but it's o.k for you to kill and torture those same people when those same dictators get a little too independent.

OnTheEdge

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

here ya go ontheedge...mancow felt the same way you do about waterboarding, then he got waterboarded and changed his opinion...there are videos of it on the link and you can see that he broke fairly easily and very quickly...

Mancow Waterboarded (VIDEO): Conservative Radio Host Say It's Torture

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/2 ... 06906.html



Erich "Mancow" Muller, a Chicago-based conservative radio host, recently decided to silence critics of waterboarding once and for all. He would undergo the procedure himself, and then he would be able to confidently convince others that it is not, in fact, torture.

Or so he thought. Instead, Muller came out convinced.

"It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke," Mancow said. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back... It was instantaneous... and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."

"I wanted to prove it wasn't torture," Mancow said. "They cut off our heads, we put water on their face... I got voted to do this but I really thought 'I'm going to laugh this off.' "


And here's his conclusion:


Christopher Hitchens underwent nearly the same experiment last year. He, too, concluded that waterboarding is torture.

I am already aware of this. Just saying, I would try it and judge for myself.