Every human being is created with certain rights and dignities endowed to them by God, I believe.
However, if you WILLINGLY participate in activities meant to take innocent life, and you get caught, you forfeit those dignities. I'm not going to pity the terrorist who wishes to slaughter my fellow countrymen. If they're witholding knowledge which can save innocent life, then waterboard them until they squeal. They've fofeited those rights and those dignities in favor of MURDER.
I think you'll find international law disagrees with you on this.
Yeah, and it's a bullshit system which defends the killers. Who gives a shit what the U.N. says? We don't owe them anything.
I believe we have the right to remove an evil dictator from power that kills and tortures people in order to keep that power. And god bless to the soldiers that have made that happen.
uhhh ... why is it ok for you guys to torture but not the other side?
also - although the documented torture techniques used by the US may not be militant enough for you ... you do realize that putting bags over people's heads and shipping them to Syria or wherever to get tortured "their" way is still the same thing ...
Yeah, and it's a bullshit system which defends the killers. Who gives a shit what the U.N. says? We don't owe them anything.
It was America that supported him when he was killing and torturing people. You sold him his chemical wepaons before and after he was gassing the Kurds and you supported him when he massacred the Shiite Militia's in the South at the end of the first Gulf War. What have you got to say about that?
I believe we have the right to remove an evil dictator from power that kills and tortures people in order to keep that power. And god bless to the soldiers that have made that happen.
No, you don't have that right.
O.K. Understood.
I believe it's the right thing to do. You believe we should've turned our backs and ignored it.
Yeah, and it's a bullshit system which defends the killers. Who gives a shit what the U.N. says? We don't owe them anything.
It was America that supported him when he was killing and torturing people. You sold him his chemical wepaons before and after he was gassing the Kurds and you supported him when he massacred the Shiite Militia's in the South at the end of the first Gulf War. What have you got to say about that?
Again, another accusation. Where did I say I supported this?
WAW,Byrnzie,Cosmo why is it so important to you three to change my opinion or try and make me think that you are with out question right ? I have a great understanding of responsibility I believe hurting or killing does not go without punishment but I also believe that we have a right to live without the threat of attack in our country(yes 9/11) and all these people involved need to be held responsible for what they have done and unfortunately they are not going to voluntarily give any info,politics and war are not a pretty game country's around the world have done horrible things and because of that one of the after effects in this country are your freedoms to talk as you wish in America, you say bush should be punished for this water board thing so do you think that the people that attack our country should be punished ?
also non of us have have any idea what really is going on behind the scenes in Washington you just assume the US is throwing it's weight around and bullying other country's for no good reason and you really have no idea why,not that I or anyone else outside the white house does but I don't think that does not matters to you as long as you have that freedom to complain about things you don't fully understand.
and no I don't think any form of torture is ok but neither is attacking this this country and killing its citizens
you've heard the old saying "mess with bull and you get the horns".
some of us are proud of our country and have not taken for granted our freedom but enjoy yours anyway.
Godfather.
Do you think Iraq was responsible for 9/11?
as I said no more than you or anybody else on this board but personally yes I think Saddam had his hand in there some how and I think he helped to fund the attack but thats just my opinion.
I believe we have the right to remove an evil dictator from power that kills and tortures people in order to keep that power. And god bless to the soldiers that have made that happen.
uhhh ... why is it ok for you guys to torture but not the other side?
also - although the documented torture techniques used by the US may not be militant enough for you ... you do realize that putting bags over people's heads and shipping them to Syria or wherever to get tortured "their" way is still the same thing ...
What kind of torture did they face in Syria? Not challenging you on this, just asking.
Yeah, and it's a bullshit system which defends the killers. Who gives a shit what the U.N. says? We don't owe them anything.
It was America that supported him when he was killing and torturing people. You sold him his chemical wepaons before and after he was gassing the Kurds and you supported him when he massacred the Shiite Militia's in the South at the end of the first Gulf War. What have you got to say about that?
Again, another accusation. Where did I say I supported this?
I didn't say you supported it. My post was a response to Electric Delta.
as I said no more than you or anybody else on this board but personally yes I think Saddam had his hand in there some how and I think he helped to fund the attack but thats just my opinion.
Godfather.
Your opinion is that Sadaam funded the attacks on 9/11? And what do you base your opinion on?
WAW,Byrnzie,Cosmo why is it so important to you three to change my opinion or try and make me think that you are with out question right ? I have a great understanding of responsibility I believe hurting or killing does not go without punishment but I also believe that we have a right to live without the threat of attack in our country(yes 9/11) and all these people involved need to be held responsible for what they have done and unfortunately they are not going to voluntarily give any info,politics and war are not a pretty game country's around the world have done horrible things and because of that one of the after effects in this country are your freedoms to talk as you wish in America, you say bush should be punished for this water board thing so do you think that the people that attack our country should be punished ?
also non of us have have any idea what really is going on behind the scenes in Washington you just assume the US is throwing it's weight around and bullying other country's for no good reason and you really have no idea why,not that I or anyone else outside the white house does but I don't think that does not matters to you as long as you have that freedom to complain about things you don't fully understand.
and no I don't think any form of torture is ok but neither is attacking this this country and killing its citizens
you've heard the old saying "mess with bull and you get the horns".
some of us are proud of our country and have not taken for granted our freedom but enjoy yours anyway.
Godfather.
Do you think Iraq was responsible for 9/11?
Personally, I don't care wither he did or not. He was satan trapped in a mans body. Satan does no good for this planet. Satan must be removed. But to answer the question. No, I don't think he did.
Personally, I don't care wither he did or not. He was satan trapped in a mans body. Satan does no good for this planet. Satan must be removed. But to answer the question. No, I don't think he did.
So let's get this straight:
Electric Delta says Americans shouldn't give a fuck about the U.N because you don't owe them anything.
Godfather says he's of the opinion that Sadaam had a hand in 9/11.
And On the Edge thinks Sadaam was Satan and so had to be removed.
Yeah, and it's a bullshit system which defends the killers. Who gives a shit what the U.N. says? We don't owe them anything.
It was America that supported him when he was killing and torturing people. You sold him his chemical wepaons before and after he was gassing the Kurds and you supported him when he massacred the Shiite Militia's in the South at the end of the first Gulf War. What have you got to say about that?
My comment was in response to terrorist interrogations, not arms sales to Saddam Hussein. However, we've made our fair share of mistakes. You will never hear me say the United States has a perfect track record on foreign policy.
By the way, as it relates to the U.N. - how can I take any organization seriously when it appoints Saudi Arabia to a Women's Rights Panel?
here ya go ontheedge...mancow felt the same way you do about waterboarding, then he got waterboarded and changed his opinion...there are videos of it on the link and you can see that he broke fairly easily and very quickly...
Mancow Waterboarded (VIDEO): Conservative Radio Host Say It's Torture
Erich "Mancow" Muller, a Chicago-based conservative radio host, recently decided to silence critics of waterboarding once and for all. He would undergo the procedure himself, and then he would be able to confidently convince others that it is not, in fact, torture.
Or so he thought. Instead, Muller came out convinced.
"It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke," Mancow said. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back... It was instantaneous... and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."
"I wanted to prove it wasn't torture," Mancow said. "They cut off our heads, we put water on their face... I got voted to do this but I really thought 'I'm going to laugh this off.' "
And here's his conclusion:
Christopher Hitchens underwent nearly the same experiment last year. He, too, concluded that waterboarding is torture.
Post edited by gimmesometruth27 on
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Every human being is created with certain rights and dignities endowed to them by God, I believe....
However, if you WILLINGLY participate in activities meant to take innocent life, and you get caught, you forfeit those dignities.
Says who? If rights come from God, as you believe, why do you assume that you, a mere and fallible mortal, has the power to undermine them, or place limits on them according to nothing more reliable than just your opinion?
The whole concept of rights necessarily depends on the notion that everyone is entitled to them, by the merit of being human, and regardless of who they are or what they have or have not done. No one has the right to take them away, even if they have violated someone else's rights. No one is entitled to make the subjective judgment that someone has "forfeited" their rights. To do so totally undermines the very notion of rights.
I'm not going to pity the terrorist who wishes to slaughter my fellow countrymen. If they're witholding knowledge which can save innocent life, then waterboard them until they squeal.
Firstly, no one's talking about pity. We're talking about decency, civility, not sinking to the level of terrorists by commiting acts of terror ourselves.
Secondly, many non-terrorists have been subjected to torture by the US.
Thirdly, as many, many, many people have pointed out, and as there are reams of evidence to support, what a person under the mortal stress of torture tells you cannot be considered reliable or true. If you believed that someone was going to kill you unless you told them exactly what they wanted to hear, I'm sure you would at least consider telling them what they wanted to hear, whether it was true or not.
Whether or not we agree on the morality of torture, the objective fact is it is ineffective, and therefore pointless.
Post edited by wolfamongwolves on
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
You believe we should've turned our backs and ignored it.
I believe we should have Ignored what?
Do you think we hung Saddam because we just felt like it. Saddam treated people like dirt and was evil. He broke many laws and was a mass murderer that had the entire power of Iraq. We hung him because he deserved it. And you obviously feel that we should have ignored his evil actions and that Iraq was better with him rather then without him. Which is fine, that's your opinion. But why do I have to explain your opinion to you?
My comment was in response to terrorist interrogations, not arms sales to Saddam Hussein. However, we've made our fair share of mistakes. You will never hear me say the United States has a perfect track record on foreign policy.
By the way, as it relates to the U.N. - how can I take any organization seriously when it appoints Saudi Arabia to a Women's Rights Panel?
I get it: It's a 'mistake' when you support dictators who kill and torture their own people, but it's o.k for you to kill and torture those same people when those same dictators get a little too independent.
here ya go ontheedge...mancow felt the same way you do about waterboarding, then he got waterboarded and changed his opinion...there are videos of it on the link and you can see that he broke fairly easily and very quickly...
Mancow Waterboarded (VIDEO): Conservative Radio Host Say It's Torture
Erich "Mancow" Muller, a Chicago-based conservative radio host, recently decided to silence critics of waterboarding once and for all. He would undergo the procedure himself, and then he would be able to confidently convince others that it is not, in fact, torture.
Or so he thought. Instead, Muller came out convinced.
"It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke," Mancow said. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back... It was instantaneous... and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."
"I wanted to prove it wasn't torture," Mancow said. "They cut off our heads, we put water on their face... I got voted to do this but I really thought 'I'm going to laugh this off.' "
And here's his conclusion:
Christopher Hitchens underwent nearly the same experiment last year. He, too, concluded that waterboarding is torture.
I am already aware of this. Just saying, I would try it and judge for myself.
You believe we should've turned our backs and ignored it.
I believe we should have Ignored what?
Do you think we hung Saddam because we just felt like it. Saddam treated people like dirt and was evil. He broke many laws and was a mass murderer that had the entire power of Iraq. We hung him because he deserved it. And you obviously feel that we should have ignored his evil actions and that Iraq was better with him rather then without him. Which is fine, that's your opinion. But why do I have to explain your opinion to you?
you really have no clue of recent history do you? did you know that it was the iraqi governmente who hanged saddam, not us? they would never have deposed him nor caught him if we did not pay people to sell him out.
people were better off under saddam. at least they had running water and electricity 24 hours a day. things that they do not have now... we bombed them back 100 years, destroyed their infrastructure and killed countless civilians that would be alive had we not "delivered them feedom"...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
You believe we should've turned our backs and ignored it.
I believe we should have Ignored what?
Do you think we hung Saddam because we just felt like it. Saddam treated people like dirt and was evil. He broke many laws and was a mass murderer that had the entire power of Iraq. We hung him because he deserved it. And you obviously feel that we should have ignored his evil actions and that Iraq was better with him rather then without him. Which is fine, that's your opinion. But why do I have to explain your opinion to you?
You supported Sadaam when he was killing and torturing people. But that was just a mistake, right?
My comment was in response to terrorist interrogations, not arms sales to Saddam Hussein. However, we've made our fair share of mistakes. You will never hear me say the United States has a perfect track record on foreign policy.
By the way, as it relates to the U.N. - how can I take any organization seriously when it appoints Saudi Arabia to a Women's Rights Panel?
I get it: It's a 'mistake' when you support dictators who kill and torture their own people, but it's o.k for you to kill and torture those same people when those same dictators get a little too independent.
Every human being is created with certain rights and dignities endowed to them by God, I believe....
However, if you WILLINGLY participate in activities meant to take innocent life, and you get caught, you forfeit those dignities.
Says who? If rights come from God, as you believe, why do you assume that you, a mere and fallible mortal, has the power to undermine them, or place limits on them according to nothing more reliable than just your opinion?
The whole concept of rights necessarily depends on the notion that everyone is entitled to them, by the merit of being human, and regardless of who they are or what they have or have not done. No one has the right to take them away, even if they have violated someone else's rights. No one is entitled to make the subjective judgment that someone has "forfeited" their rights. To do so totally undermines the very notion of rights.
I'm not going to pity the terrorist who wishes to slaughter my fellow countrymen. If they're witholding knowledge which can save innocent life, then waterboard them until they squeal.
Firstly, no one's talking about pity. We're talking about decency, civility, not sinking to the level of terrorists by commiting acts of terror ourselves.
Secondly, many non-terrorists have been subjected to torture by the US.
Thirdly, as many, many, many people have pointed out, and as there are reams of evidence to support, what a person under the mortal stress of torture tells you cannot be considered reliable or true. If you believed that someone was going to kill you unless you told them exactly what they wanted to hear, I'm sure you would at least consider telling them what they wanted to hear, whether it was true or not.
Whether or not we agree on the morality of torture, the objective fact is it is ineffective, and therefore pointless.
I believe we have the right to remove an evil dictator from power that kills and tortures people in order to keep that power. And god bless to the soldiers that have made that happen.
uhhh ... why is it ok for you guys to torture but not the other side?
also - although the documented torture techniques used by the US may not be militant enough for you ... you do realize that putting bags over people's heads and shipping them to Syria or wherever to get tortured "their" way is still the same thing ...
What kind of torture did they face in Syria? Not challenging you on this, just asking.
who knows ... it would be whatever torture you believe the other side to be conducting ...
any response to the why its ok for you guys to torture but not the other side?
lettingo, you say bush used 9/11 as a segue into iraq
and i will never believe otherwise
What does it matter what reason he used to go to Iraq? You say you understand that Saddam was a dangerous weapon, so clearly you must believe that it's best that we removed him from power.
no i clearly stated that our invasion caused some mass destruction of its own
i will clearly state now that i believe our invasion of iraq was wrong in that it was based upon conjecture, lies and the desire to pad the pockets of big oil and halliburton. Removing saddam from power was gravy.
cheney pulled us back from iraq in desert storm calling it a quagmire,
ceo's halliburton,
then plows us right into that very quagmire.
personally yes I think Saddam had his hand in there some how and I think he helped to fund the attack but thats just my opinion.
Godfather.
I think the world was created by a pink toad called Trevor. I also believe Trevor created the world after eating a Big Mac and taking a massive shit on some depleted Uranium left behind on a toilet seat after Scotland invaded Tierra Del Fuego in 1927.
You believe we should've turned our backs and ignored it.
I believe we should have Ignored what?
Do you think we hung Saddam because we just felt like it. Saddam treated people like dirt and was evil. He broke many laws and was a mass murderer that had the entire power of Iraq. We hung him because he deserved it. And you obviously feel that we should have ignored his evil actions and that Iraq was better with him rather then without him. Which is fine, that's your opinion. But why do I have to explain your opinion to you?
again ... look in the mirror first ... and i say that figuratively ...
My comment was in response to terrorist interrogations, not arms sales to Saddam Hussein. However, we've made our fair share of mistakes. You will never hear me say the United States has a perfect track record on foreign policy.
By the way, as it relates to the U.N. - how can I take any organization seriously when it appoints Saudi Arabia to a Women's Rights Panel?
I get it: It's a 'mistake' when you support dictators who kill and torture their own people, but it's o.k for you to kill and torture those same people when those same dictators get a little too independent.
Think what you want.
Terrorists deserve no mercy. Period.
You are aware that there are many ordinary people (in Iraq, for example) who consider the US to be terrorists, right? You are aware that it is a subjective term, right? You are aware that torture is an act of terrorism, and that your ex-president has openly admitted that the US army engaged in these acts under his watch and with his full knowledge, right?
So you must apply your "Terrorists deserve no mercy. Period." dictum equally to them. Right?
Post edited by wolfamongwolves on
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
Comments
Yeah, and it's a bullshit system which defends the killers. Who gives a shit what the U.N. says? We don't owe them anything.
uhhh ... why is it ok for you guys to torture but not the other side?
also - although the documented torture techniques used by the US may not be militant enough for you ... you do realize that putting bags over people's heads and shipping them to Syria or wherever to get tortured "their" way is still the same thing ...
It was America that supported him when he was killing and torturing people. You sold him his chemical wepaons before and after he was gassing the Kurds and you supported him when he massacred the Shiite Militia's in the South at the end of the first Gulf War. What have you got to say about that?
O.K. Understood.
I believe it's the right thing to do. You believe we should've turned our backs and ignored it.
Again, another accusation. Where did I say I supported this?
as I said no more than you or anybody else on this board but personally yes I think Saddam had his hand in there some how and I think he helped to fund the attack but thats just my opinion.
Godfather.
What kind of torture did they face in Syria? Not challenging you on this, just asking.
I didn't say you supported it. My post was a response to Electric Delta.
Your opinion is that Sadaam funded the attacks on 9/11? And what do you base your opinion on?
Personally, I don't care wither he did or not. He was satan trapped in a mans body. Satan does no good for this planet. Satan must be removed. But to answer the question. No, I don't think he did.
I believe we should have Ignored what?
Yeah, actually you did......along with every other american.
So let's get this straight:
Electric Delta says Americans shouldn't give a fuck about the U.N because you don't owe them anything.
Godfather says he's of the opinion that Sadaam had a hand in 9/11.
And On the Edge thinks Sadaam was Satan and so had to be removed.
Thanks. I think I'm starting to understand now.
My comment was in response to terrorist interrogations, not arms sales to Saddam Hussein. However, we've made our fair share of mistakes. You will never hear me say the United States has a perfect track record on foreign policy.
By the way, as it relates to the U.N. - how can I take any organization seriously when it appoints Saudi Arabia to a Women's Rights Panel?
Mancow Waterboarded (VIDEO): Conservative Radio Host Say It's Torture
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/2 ... 06906.html
Erich "Mancow" Muller, a Chicago-based conservative radio host, recently decided to silence critics of waterboarding once and for all. He would undergo the procedure himself, and then he would be able to confidently convince others that it is not, in fact, torture.
Or so he thought. Instead, Muller came out convinced.
"It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke," Mancow said. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back... It was instantaneous... and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."
"I wanted to prove it wasn't torture," Mancow said. "They cut off our heads, we put water on their face... I got voted to do this but I really thought 'I'm going to laugh this off.' "
And here's his conclusion:
Christopher Hitchens underwent nearly the same experiment last year. He, too, concluded that waterboarding is torture.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
What?
The whole concept of rights necessarily depends on the notion that everyone is entitled to them, by the merit of being human, and regardless of who they are or what they have or have not done. No one has the right to take them away, even if they have violated someone else's rights. No one is entitled to make the subjective judgment that someone has "forfeited" their rights. To do so totally undermines the very notion of rights.
Firstly, no one's talking about pity. We're talking about decency, civility, not sinking to the level of terrorists by commiting acts of terror ourselves.
Secondly, many non-terrorists have been subjected to torture by the US.
Thirdly, as many, many, many people have pointed out, and as there are reams of evidence to support, what a person under the mortal stress of torture tells you cannot be considered reliable or true. If you believed that someone was going to kill you unless you told them exactly what they wanted to hear, I'm sure you would at least consider telling them what they wanted to hear, whether it was true or not.
Whether or not we agree on the morality of torture, the objective fact is it is ineffective, and therefore pointless.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
Do you think we hung Saddam because we just felt like it. Saddam treated people like dirt and was evil. He broke many laws and was a mass murderer that had the entire power of Iraq. We hung him because he deserved it. And you obviously feel that we should have ignored his evil actions and that Iraq was better with him rather then without him. Which is fine, that's your opinion. But why do I have to explain your opinion to you?
I get it: It's a 'mistake' when you support dictators who kill and torture their own people, but it's o.k for you to kill and torture those same people when those same dictators get a little too independent.
I am already aware of this. Just saying, I would try it and judge for myself.
people were better off under saddam. at least they had running water and electricity 24 hours a day. things that they do not have now... we bombed them back 100 years, destroyed their infrastructure and killed countless civilians that would be alive had we not "delivered them feedom"...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
You supported Sadaam when he was killing and torturing people. But that was just a mistake, right?
wth are you talking about?
Think what you want.
Terrorists deserve no mercy. Period.
Kind of like debating on this board...pointless.
who knows ... it would be whatever torture you believe the other side to be conducting ...
any response to the why its ok for you guys to torture but not the other side?
no i clearly stated that our invasion caused some mass destruction of its own
i will clearly state now that i believe our invasion of iraq was wrong in that it was based upon conjecture, lies and the desire to pad the pockets of big oil and halliburton. Removing saddam from power was gravy.
cheney pulled us back from iraq in desert storm calling it a quagmire,
ceo's halliburton,
then plows us right into that very quagmire.
"what a long, strange trip it's been"
I think the world was created by a pink toad called Trevor. I also believe Trevor created the world after eating a Big Mac and taking a massive shit on some depleted Uranium left behind on a toilet seat after Scotland invaded Tierra Del Fuego in 1927.
But that's just my opinion.
again ... look in the mirror first ... and i say that figuratively ...
So you must apply your "Terrorists deserve no mercy. Period." dictum equally to them. Right?
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2