everybody sucks

_

pandora wrote:

MG79478 wrote:

pandora wrote:

the non smokers are on the road to remove choice.

The smokers do have a choice, to smoke or not to smoke.

right now they do..if you read the post you took my quote from you will see I am speaking down the road,
'give an inch take a mile' is the name of the game.

actually if I read your post right you and I agree :shock: as long as the smokers stay in the
designated smoker areas you are ok with it...
you are not looking for a public ban on the public streets
if I got that right,
not that smokers can only smoke in their homes, as some are proposing.

I don't understand why you think a certain amount of regulation is appropriate but a different amount is suddenly an infringement on the rights of smokers by people who seek to crucify them. Someone could just as easily say the same thing about you and your recommended restrictions. I think when it's such a fine and fuzzy line between what you find acceptable and what others find acceptable, you shouldn't be so quick to judge the others. People who live is glass houses and all that...

Jeanwah

Wow, scb, you sound angry.

I just want to point out that as bad as cigarettes are for people in general, no one can make another person quit. It's got to come from within the smoker to decide what they want to do. Think about that with your sister. I know that if someone hated my bad habits, it would not make me stop them. I've got to want to quit for me for anything to happen. Give up that need to decide for your sister and she may just make the right decision.

_

Jeanwah wrote:

Wow, scb, you sound angry.

I just want to point out that as bad as cigarettes are for people in general, no one can make another person quit. It's got to come from within the smoker to decide what they want to do. Think about that with your sister. I know that if someone hated my bad habits, it would not make me stop them. I've got to want to quit for me for anything to happen. Give up that need to decide for your sister and she may just make the right decision.

I am angry - not about smoking but about Pandora's (and now your) condescending, self-righteous, making presumptions about stuff you can't possibly understand and that's none of your fucking business lectures. I am unhappy that my sister smokes; I do not have a need to control her and I am aware that no one can make another person quit - and I shouldn't have to explain or justify it to you or anyone else. Please don't talk to me like I'm a child.

Jeanwah

scb wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

Wow, scb, you sound angry.

I just want to point out that as bad as cigarettes are for people in general, no one can make another person quit. It's got to come from within the smoker to decide what they want to do. Think about that with your sister. I know that if someone hated my bad habits, it would not make me stop them. I've got to want to quit for me for anything to happen. Give up that need to decide for your sister and she may just make the right decision.

I am angry - not about smoking but about Pandora's (and now your) condescending, self-righteous, making presumptions about stuff you can't possibly understand and that's none of your fucking business lectures. I am unhappy that my sister smokes; I do not have a need to control her - and I shouldn't have to explain or justify it to you or anyone else. Please don't talk to me like I'm a child.

If you want to take it as condescending, that's your problem. I was trying to be helpful, and I didn't feel that Pandora's post was condescending either. I've been where you are. I'm just trying to give you some advice. But never mind now.

_

Jeanwah wrote:

scb wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

Wow, scb, you sound angry.

I just want to point out that as bad as cigarettes are for people in general, no one can make another person quit. It's got to come from within the smoker to decide what they want to do. Think about that with your sister. I know that if someone hated my bad habits, it would not make me stop them. I've got to want to quit for me for anything to happen. Give up that need to decide for your sister and she may just make the right decision.

I am angry - not about smoking but about Pandora's (and now your) condescending, self-righteous, making presumptions about stuff you can't possibly understand and that's none of your fucking business lectures. I am unhappy that my sister smokes; I do not have a need to control her - and I shouldn't have to explain or justify it to you or anyone else. Please don't talk to me like I'm a child.

If you want to take it as condescending, that's your problem. I was trying to be helpful, and I didn't feel that Pandora's post was condescending either. I've been where you are. I'm just trying to give you some advice. But never mind now.

Well thanks for your good intentions. Presuming that someone needs your advice about how to interact with their own family members when you have absolutely no understanding of the nature of their relationship is pretty fucking condescending though. So is talking to them like they have no experience with or understanding of addiction.

Jeanwah

scb wrote:

Well thanks for your good intentions. Presuming that someone needs your advice about how to interact with their own family members when you have absolutely no understanding of the nature of their relationship is pretty fucking condescending though. So is talking to them like they have no experience with or understanding of addiction.

Then don't talk about your family problems if you want us all out of your business. Try to have a good day, ok?

MG79478

pandora wrote:

give an inch take a mile' is the name of the game.

The same goes for smokers. Tell them it's OK to smoke 50 ft outside the entrance, it's not long before they a huddled right outside the door, throwing their butts everywhere. The easiest thing to do is ban outdoor public smoking.

pandora wrote:

actually if I read your post right you and I agree :shock: as long as the smokers stay in the
designated smoker areas you are ok with it...
you are not looking for a public ban on the public streets
if I got that right,
not that smokers can only smoke in their homes, as some are proposing.

I'm fine with designated areas, i.e. an out of the way smoking lounge. I'm also fine with an employer or proprietor who doesn't want to offer such an area. I'm fine if they do it in their car or in their home as long as they don't expose other (such as children) to it. I don't think smoking should be allowed anywhere in public, where it might bother the mass majority of the population who are non-smokers.

Jeanwah

MG79478 wrote:

I'm fine with designated areas, i.e. an out of the way smoking lounge. I'm also fine with an employer or proprietor who doesn't want to offer such an area. I'm fine if they do it in their car or in their home as long as they don't expose other (such as children) to it. I don't think smoking should be allowed anywhere in public, where it might bother the mass majority of the population who are non-smokers.

Yet, the mass majority of the population were the smokers up until the last ten or so years. Everyone smoked (except me, I actually tried to like smoking, didn't work). And the popular thing to do was smoke in the 40s through the 70s. Where was the uproar then? Oh,yeah...they were the ones smoking.

Godfather.

cincybearcat wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

so then who do we afford these rights to ? where I work we had a smoking area but then the company turned the whole plant into a smoke free facility and told the smokers that they have to smoke outside by the street well this a busy street with joggers just a bout all day and now they run around us going into the street and thats not right but the smokers were forced into that situation, the smokers have as much right as the joggers to use that sidewalk and I agree it's not very polite but there is no where else for the smokers to go at break.

Godfather.

Let me ask you a question...let's say a company allows their employees to smoke in their facility. When an employee comes down with cancer that didn't smoke, what do you think happens?

Now, let's say the company only allows smoking in a designated area. Now an employee that doesn't smoke ends up getting some form of cancer related to smoke...what do you think happens?

The first priority needs to be on the health and safety of all employees not their convenience. In addition, the company must also protect itself from the ridiculous lawsuits that pop up everywhere.

we had a out-door smoking area out near the back of the plant so for the most part nobody else needed to go there.

let me ask you something...lets say I am far away from anybody and having a cig, along comes joe blow and wants to talk to me should I A. put out my cig to see what he want's..or B. joe blow can wait till I'm finished smoking to talk me. ? guess what happens..I choose plan B. if joe blow sees me smoking and don't want second hand smoke he should do his best to wait for me or stay away from me..pretty simple right ?

you guys are blowing this stuff way out of proportion,you make sound like smokers are out to kill the world
with 2nd hand smoke and we have no rights at all, just stay away from smokers it's simple.

Godfather.

JonnyPistachio

Jeanwah wrote:

MG79478 wrote:

I'm fine with designated areas, i.e. an out of the way smoking lounge. I'm also fine with an employer or proprietor who doesn't want to offer such an area. I'm fine if they do it in their car or in their home as long as they don't expose other (such as children) to it. I don't think smoking should be allowed anywhere in public, where it might bother the mass majority of the population who are non-smokers.

Yet, the mass majority of the population were the smokers up until the last ten or so years. Everyone smoked (except me, I actually tried to like smoking, didn't work). And the popular thing to do was smoke in the 40s through the 70s. Where was the uproar then? Oh,yeah...they were the ones smoking.

The bottom line is that many smokers are going to continue to complain because there is a huge change in education and what a typical non-smoker is willing to put up with.

And non-smokers will continue to complain and tighten the noose on smokers rights because it is a huge health concern. I wouldnt be so adamant about not wanting to inhale someone elses smoke if it wasnt a health concern. I don't think it is close-mindedness either, its just being smart.

I enjoy seeing everyones perspectives in here, and the best thing i've learned is that maybe I should approach someone who is smoking an ask nicely for them to stop or move. Unfortunatley, I think many times this wont end well, but who knows? And the most personal situation I've had to deal with was a co-worker in close quarters. Had that guy never been fired, I really can't even imagine what would've/could've happened.

But one other thing I really have been considering is that man ypeople herre throw around terms like "close-mindedness" and "control others"... my answer to this is exactly what I read by Cosmo (who is an ocasional smoker). He is very conscious of his surroundings and how his actions might affect others. This forced me to think like a smoker and realize that I would want to act like him (if I were a smoker) so that I do not have to force my (health detrimental)choices onto another human. Of course, many smokers might not have been a non-smoker since they were teens or very young, so they often don't think like a non-smoker and/or realize how they are negatively affecting people around them.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

where was uproar? are you kidding? there was no uproar then because they actually thought smoking was GOOD FOR YOU, relieving stress, etc. the uproar came when the facts were discovered.

Is anyone here actually advocating abolishing outdoor smoking? I haven't seen any post declaring that. Smoking is a nuisance, having to smell the bastards, but I can't tell someone not to smoke outside. In fact, I laugh at them all winter!!

But I also thinks it's sad when they tell me they can't afford a necessity in life, or even a luxury for their children (like sports), yet they have a $400 a month smoking habit. Hello, priorities?

I QUIT WHEN MY WIFE WAS PREGNANT WITH OUR FIRST. I have fallen off the wagon a couple of times, but ultimately I knew what was right for my kid (now kidS). And I smoked heavily for nearly 15 years. If you want it bad enough, it can be done.

Jeanwah wrote:

MG79478 wrote:

I'm fine with designated areas, i.e. an out of the way smoking lounge. I'm also fine with an employer or proprietor who doesn't want to offer such an area. I'm fine if they do it in their car or in their home as long as they don't expose other (such as children) to it. I don't think smoking should be allowed anywhere in public, where it might bother the mass majority of the population who are non-smokers.

Yet, the mass majority of the population were the smokers up until the last ten or so years. Everyone smoked (except me, I actually tried to like smoking, didn't work). And the popular thing to do was smoke in the 40s through the 70s. Where was the uproar then? Oh,yeah...they were the ones smoking.

JonnyPistachio

Times are changing because we are becoming more educated and health conscious. I don't know how accurate these are, but I've heard trends like these that are comparable:

http://www.faqs.org/abstracts/Health/Tr ... -race.html

Jeanwah

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I enjoy seeing everyones perspectives in here, and the best thing i've learned is that maybe I should approach someone who is smoking an ask nicely for them to stop or move. Unfortunatley, I think many times this wont end well, but who knows? And the most personal situation I've had to deal with was a co-worker in close quarters. Had that guy never been fired, I really can't even imagine what would've/could've happened.

But one other thing I really have been considering is that man ypeople herre throw around terms like "close-mindedness" and "control others"... my answer to this is exactly what I read by Cosmo (who is an ocasional smoker). He is very conscious of his surroundings and how his actions might affect others. This forced me to think like a smoker and realize that I would want to act like him so that I do not have to force my choices onto another human. Of course, many smokers might not have been a non-smoker since they were teens or very young, so they often don't think like a non-smoker and/or realize how they are negatively affecting people around them.

I've done this before with smoker friends and they've been very courteous to not be near me with their smoke. I do usually have to say something, but that's fine, I don't have a problem with asking nicely. Most smokers will not jump down one's throat if asked in a nice way to please move. And on my way to a PJ show when I was 7 months pregnant, a smoker blew my mind by apologizing profusely for smoking while walking down the street in front of me. I think generalizing smokers to being non-receptive to 2nd hand smoke isn't always fair. I mean, look at Cosmo.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Jeanwah wrote:

I think generalizing smokers to being non-receptive to 2nd hand smoke isn't always fair. I mean, look at Cosmo.

you're right. it has nothign to do with the smoking status of the individual, just the personality. I know lots of non-smokers that are inconsiderate assholes.

Cosmo

pandora wrote:

No I am a non smoker. I smoked from the ages of 19 to 23 then quit when I met JB who had quit after being a teen smoker.
My son smokes, my daughter does not. JB smokes cigars, all my sisters smoke or did. My father did not and my Mama did very lightly.

One thing that seems to be dismissed is that the analogies of not being able
to do certain things while away from home...
this incorrect and for some reason being used as an analogy
of what the nonsmokers have given up, I guess?? :?
All the things stated people can and they do, away from home, crap, drink have sex....etc.

The naked and sing off tune might actually work soon...naked karaoke theres an idea, I bet people sound a lot better when naked

I'm not touching the 'the gettin jiggy with it" stuff as you knew I wouldn't...hey were you being a jag?


This for scb....
I was speaking of the free will of scb loved ones and the right to choose what they enjoy or need.
And yes scb... I was not being condescending that was coming from the heart, from my life experience.
I believe, as I have said before, what we do for others is pretty much all we will take with us from this world when we go.
'The love you receive is the love that is saved'

That was my point to you, that it is an opportunity for great love to be there with someone in their time of need. If that is dying from smoking so be it.

The spin you put on being with your loved one in that capacity didn't seem to approach the challenge in a positive way. Perhaps I took that wrong. I apologize if so, it seemed a little high horse ish.

Would you rather a loved one not suffer, of course. Would you rather they lived their life in a perfect way so as to remain healthy as long as possible? Sure, but that is not in our control nor should it be.
My sister passed from throat cancer 5 years ago. She was the ripe old age of 58, that's 3 short years older than I am now.
Would I like her to still be walking the earth? yes,
was it her choice to smoke and drink? yes and to not quit when advised? yes.
Was it a lesson learned for her on the other side? yes.
Did she know how very much I loved and accepted her and her choices? yes.
This life lesson has also taught me much.
We must think for ourselves in this life and learn from our mistakes.

To all those that jumped on the 12 hour thingy.....

yes I feel it is extremely hard for a smoker to go 12 hours without smoking, not impossible but very stressful and why should they?... where is the compromise there?
The non smokers are saying they should go 12 hours because they don't want to compromise.
It doesn't matter that the smokers have designated areas or are not able to smoke in restaurants bars or the workplace.
They want it their way no no way.They want to do away with it.
They do not want to see a cigarette, basically that's what it comes down to.
Abolish the right to smoke in public.
Fast forward a few years and then perhaps one step further, the insurances costs to take care of ill smokers is a burden...a very good reason to abolish it and make it illegal all together.
One right gone.
This of course worries an open minded person because what will be the next right taken away?
Who will be targeted next in a society of the perfect?
Perhaps those that listen to loud music... perhaps tougher laws on weed :shock:


The non smokers will not agree with me,
my stance.... let the smokers have their areas to smoke and keep the right to smoke in public,
the non smokers are on the road to remove choice.
Without compromise there is no reason.... what follows is a mind that is closed to the subject
and as we see here, the heart soon loses it's compassion.
and then everybody sucks

...
I think the thing you seem to be missing here is this... smoking is not a necessity. It is a habit.... an addiction... but certainly not a necessity. I think it is closer to masturbation, than crapping... because you have to crap.... whether you want to or not. And yeah, i admit it... I masturbate... but, I can sit through a plane ride without doing it... just as i can sit through a plane ride without firing up a smoke. But, if I have to crap... I have no choice. Good thing they put those crappers on the planes.
Also, those other things you say we have the freedom to do outside our homes... crap, drink, have sex... no.... we can't. I can't just crap on the the sidewalk... I can't drive down the street, chugging a bottle of Jack Daniels... I can't have sex at the bus stop outside the elementary school. Am i being denied freedoms? No. Sure, there are restrooms, bars and motels for those types of activities and there are places for people to smoke.
About compromise... what about the smoker's compromise? I know what it is like... I SMOKE. Still, i show some consideration to those who do not. Yes... it is MY Choice to smoke... but, it is not my Right to expose you to my consequences. It is less a matter of compromise and more of a case of consideration.
Regarding your loved ones... I am truely sorry. You say they are 'Life Lessons' which you learn from and make you stronger. But, are they really lessons if you never learn and continually repeat them? You lose a sibling and what did you learn from it... to sit by and support the same lifestyle choices of loved ones so they may walk the same path that ends with the same results that leads to nothing changed? What is the greater character trait... allowing one to repeat the same experiment that have proven to have negative results.... or trying to help them so they do not end up in the same place? One is the easy way... the other is difficult... which one do you choose?

pandora

Just going to post a big SORRY
sorry I upset you so scb....Truly.
I don't want you to confuse being caring with condescending
so I better leave it at that and not try to win any approval from you.

I do hope your loss of affection for me is not due to the fact we disagree.
I know you are a bigger person than that but wonder how you could allow that to be the result.

But for the record, I don't believe you ever mentioned your loved one of concern was your twin,
I assumed it was your Mother.
Huge difference, I do understand Twin relationships as my sisters are twins
and I understand sister relationships.
The relationship entirely different than that with your Mother.
Either case I don't know if you got my drift on it all anyways.

As I said I do know what it is like to lose a sister to addiction, smoke and drink
and the lesson I have taken from that is we make our own mistakes and
should be loved in spite of them. Which we agree on...yes?

My mind is not closed to the subject and my heart is wide open.
I will continue to fight for the right of the smokers to smoke in designated public areas
as I feel this a fair compromise.

I want to add..as far as treating you like a child
I don't know about Jean but perhaps it is a similar thing,
I am just about 55 years old
you are my children's age
sorry that might sneak out at times. I apologize if that is wrong.
I have an 30 extra years of life's lessons to share but they may be unwanted.
I find that the case with my own children at times.

_

Jeanwah wrote:

scb wrote:

Well thanks for your good intentions. Presuming that someone needs your advice about how to interact with their own family members when you have absolutely no understanding of the nature of their relationship is pretty fucking condescending though. So is talking to them like they have no experience with or understanding of addiction.

Then don't talk about your family problems if you want us all out of your business. Try to have a good day, ok?

Haha... I don't have any family problems. I certainly wasn't talking about any family problems. I merely mentioned that I never give anyone shit for smoking except my sister. Then I started getting all this condescending, unsolicited "advice" about how to interact with her.

Cosmo

Godfather. wrote:

we had a out-door smoking area out near the back of the plant so for the most part nobody else needed to go there.

let me ask you something...lets say I am far away from anybody and having a cig, along comes joe blow and wants to talk to me should I A. put out my cig to see what he want's..or B. joe blow can wait till I'm finished smoking to talk me. ? guess what happens..I choose plan B. if joe blow sees me smoking and don't want second hand smoke he should do his best to wait for me or stay away from me..pretty simple right ?

you guys are blowing this stuff way out of proportion,you make sound like smokers are out to kill the world
with 2nd hand smoke and we have no rights at all, just stay away from smokers it's simple.

Godfather.

...
You have a designated area for you to smoke... it's called 'Your Car'. You want to have a smoke... go out to the parking lot, get in your car, turn on the stereo and fire up a smoke. That's what I do.
And... don't flick the butt or empty your ashtray in the parking lot... that's what the trash can at your house is for.

_

Godfather. wrote:

just stay away from smokers it's simple.

If only it were...

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Cosmo wrote:

And... don't flick the butt or empty your ashtray in the parking lot... that's what the trash can at your house is for.

funny story about that.........there was a car of 3 guys parked outside my father-in-law's house. The dude in the backseat opened the car door and proceeded to dump the car ashtray all over the curb and his lawn. My father in law, priceless, went up to the car, scooped a bunch of it up with a tiny gardening shovel, opened the door and dumped it back in the car!

The guys did nothing.