about 100 times more butts. most smokers don't consider flicking a cig as littering. trust me, I once was one. my whole group of friends smoked, or still do. I have never, EVER, once seen a smoker put out a cigarette and put it in their pocket. NOT ONCE. Not even a stranger on the street.
it's not that smokers are rude people or purposely inconsiderate to the environment, it's the culture of it. when we started smoking, there were no outdoor ashtrays, so it was commonplace to chuck em.
about 100 times more butts. most smokers don't consider flicking a cig as littering. trust me, I once was one. my whole group of friends smoked, or still do. I have never, EVER, once seen a smoker put out a cigarette and put it in their pocket. NOT ONCE. Not even a stranger on the street.
it's not that smokers are rude people or purposely inconsiderate to the environment, it's the culture of it. when we started smoking, there were no outdoor ashtrays, so it was commonplace to chuck em.
And I think that is the point.
i put em in my pocket all the time when i used to smoke.
anyway, triumphant angel had the best post in this thread already.
to reiterate.
I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth.
...
If smokers are courteous... they why are there cigarette butts everywhere you go?
same reason there are beer and soda cans and other assorted types trash everywhere you go ?
Godfather.
...
I know you're not serious.
The point is... people, even smokers, are aware of litter and typically look for a trash can. But, for some reason, smokers do not consider cigarette butts as litter. Even if there is a trash can, there are cigarette butts on the ground around it. My point being... Pandora's assessment that smokers are considerate is invalidated by the physical evidence of cigarette butts all over the city streets.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I have never, EVER, once seen a smoker put out a cigarette and put it in their pocket. NOT ONCE. Not even a stranger on the street.
...
You haven't had a smoke with me, yet. And yeah, I admit... it is an extremely rare occurance for me because there are trash cans all over the place. But, i have put them in my back pocket temporarily, til I pass a trash can or ashtray. My clothes smells like smoke anyway, right?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
Still... if smokers were, indeed, courteous... wouldn't they show their courtesy by placing their discarded cigarette butts in the trash?
one would think so thats why I mentioned a perfect world Cosmos... but not all smokers are messy, I'm sure you are not assuming that.
We have very courteous people that smoke and courteous people who do not smoke and we have careless jerks who smoke and careless jerks who do smoke.
We got all kinds.
...
Good. Then, that means your comment about smokers being courteous is invalid... just wanted clarification.
And yeah, there are careless jerks in all walks of life... but look on the ground next time you are out in public... judging from the number of cigarette butts you find, you have to come to a conclusion that there are an awful lot of careless jerks that smoke. I don't know if there are the same number of careless jerks who don't smoke, because they are not leaving any physical evidence.
non smokers could be littering, spitting gob everywhere, being a jag in traffic, rude and impatient in grocery store lines,countless things, there is plenty of evidence unfortunately.
Its a small mind who is unwilling to listen to another viewpoint or attempts to twist it to fit theirs.
Again, if you would read back through what I said I did not say that all smokers were courteous, that being taken out of text... kind of like our newspapers and news do. :roll:
I said in a perfect live and let live world where people actually care about each other
they would all be courteous.... I also said that would never happen.
So to clarify, my point was indeed valid unless someone who is acting jerky fails to comprehend it in order to support their own opinion.
Just personal experience, but I would guess that in my area, most smokers are pretty inconsiderate. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that 9 out of 10 smokers around here just flick their butts on the ground without thinking about it. As Paul David said, its just a weird culture, or maybe it's the fact that a butt is so small that some people think it is so miniscule that it doesnt matter. But once the butts add up, it can be substantial.
Also, here's something Pearl Jam related == I think in the Italy DVD, Eddie can be seen puttin out a cig and carrying the butt way over to the entrance of the ampitheater and discarding it... Good job Ed.
Just personal experience, but I would guess that in my area, most smokers are pretty inconsiderate. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that 9 out of 10 smokers around here just flick their butts on the ground without thinking about it. As Paul David said, its just a weird culture, or maybe it's the fact that a butt is so small that some people think it is so miniscule that it doesnt matter. But once the butts add up, it can be substantial.
Also, here's something Pearl Jam related == I think in the Italy DVD, Eddie can be seen puttin out a cig and carrying the butt way over to the entrance of the ampitheater and discarding it... Good job Ed.
It may be cultural to just throw your butt on the ground, but we can change that by telling smokers who are littering that they are indeed littering. Spread the word.
We used to have a boat and had many smoking friends on it. They would throw their butts in the water. OK, gross, you're swimming in that water! We had to keep a coffee can on the boat and insist they flick their butts in there. Over time, they just stopped littering. You just have to say something.
Just personal experience, but I would guess that in my area, most smokers are pretty inconsiderate. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that 9 out of 10 smokers around here just flick their butts on the ground without thinking about it. As Paul David said, its just a weird culture, or maybe it's the fact that a butt is so small that some people think it is so miniscule that it doesnt matter. But once the butts add up, it can be substantial.
Also, here's something Pearl Jam related == I think in the Italy DVD, Eddie can be seen puttin out a cig and carrying the butt way over to the entrance of the ampitheater and discarding it... Good job Ed.
It may be cultural to just throw your butt on the ground, but we can change that by telling smokers who are littering that they are indeed littering. Spread the word.
And inevitably there will be people who say we are being mean and close-minded and trampling on their rights.
Just personal experience, but I would guess that in my area, most smokers are pretty inconsiderate. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that 9 out of 10 smokers around here just flick their butts on the ground without thinking about it. As Paul David said, its just a weird culture, or maybe it's the fact that a butt is so small that some people think it is so miniscule that it doesnt matter. But once the butts add up, it can be substantial.
Also, here's something Pearl Jam related == I think in the Italy DVD, Eddie can be seen puttin out a cig and carrying the butt way over to the entrance of the ampitheater and discarding it... Good job Ed.
It may be cultural to just throw your butt on the ground, but we can change that by telling smokers who are littering that they are indeed littering. Spread the word.
And inevitably there will be people who say we are being mean and close-minded and trampling on their rights.
we've had a butt load of that on this topic which side are you speaking of ..non-smokers or smokers.
It may be cultural to just throw your butt on the ground, but we can change that by telling smokers who are littering that they are indeed littering. Spread the word.
And inevitably there will be people who say we are being mean and close-minded and trampling on their rights.
we've had a butt load of that on this topic which side are you speaking of ..non-smokers or smokers.
Godfather.
Well not all the smokers and not all the non-smokers are on the same same in this thread.
Its a small mind who is unwilling to listen to another viewpoint or attempts to twist it to fit theirs....
So to clarify, my point was indeed valid unless someone who is acting jerky fails to comprehend it in order to support their own opinion.
Wow, you're on a roll with the insults these days, huh? Let me just point out that these exact same statements could be made about you in this thread.
I think you jumped on me long before me on you in fact you lost all control.That was obvious.
Cosmos, I have told 3 times what I was speaking of and he kept taking my statement out of context... to me thats being a bit small minded and working words to make someone else look invalid.You would have said something too if it were you.
If to you a small mind is someone who does not agree with you,
does not believe the rest of the world revolves around them,
and is a person who is open enough to look the other way
and enjoy people despite their bad habits then so be it.
You can find me with the big bad smokers ...I'll be hanging with my smokin buds
listening to some southern rock at the local bar, enjoying them and myself,
not freaking out about what I smell like,
how often I must wash my hair,
worrying about 5 years off the end of my life due to second hand smoke,
which I don't get enough to worry about anyways and
besides the last 5 years of life is spent peeing ones pants and forgetting ones name anyways...wonderful
so I think I'll enjoy now!
Lighten up thats what keeps you living the longest
[If to you a small mind is someone who does not agree with you,
does not believe the rest of the world revolves around them,
and is a person who is open enough to look the other way
and enjoy people despite their bad habits then so be it.
Honestly Pandora, I think you are a wise person and have a great outlook on life in general. I respect you. And I also respect smokers rights. I try to respect people that have any habit whether it is good or bad.
I’m not sure exactly what you meant in the above quote, but I gotta add what I think might be bothersome throughout this whole debate. You say that people should be open enough to look the other way. And I assume you mean under certain circumstances..such as non-smokers turning their cheek on smokers -- even if it bothers them.
I think being able to look the other way is very important in many things, but not here. People all over the world have had to stand up against things that they believe are not right. In the case of smoking, smokers are becoming the minority and we now know how bad it is for general health. And I refuse to look the other way if I think my rights are being walked over. That does not make me small minded.
Also, when you try to tell others to live by your credos, I would suggest following them yourself…
[That was why I said it would be wonderful in a Live and let live society where people thought about each others needs and wants, giving each other space to get along.
because waay back in this conversation, you basically told me that my co-worker who smelled of smoke and was making me sick was not the problem. You said it was my problem because of allergies…Live and let live, huh?
.. if the only problem was he smelled of smoke, I would think it would be on you to control your allergy problem.
…then you say stuff like live and let live, you confuse the heck out of me. How am I supposed to live if I feel imposed upon?
You asked early on if I was biased by my personal experiences with smokers and I agreed with you and said that I am willing to admit it that my bias has formulated some hefty discrimination of smokers… but I believe your bias is in that the smoke simply doesn’t bother you. My guess is that you are in a very small group of people who are actually non-smokers who don’t really mind smoke or butts all over.
[If to you a small mind is someone who does not agree with you,
does not believe the rest of the world revolves around them,
and is a person who is open enough to look the other way
and enjoy people despite their bad habits then so be it.
Honestly Pandora, I think you are a wise person and have a great outlook on life in general. I respect you. And I also respect smokers rights. I try to respect people that have any habit whether it is good or bad.
I’m not sure exactly what you meant in the above quote, but I gotta add what I think might be bothersome throughout this whole debate. You say that people should be open enough to look the other way. And I assume you mean under certain circumstances..such as non-smokers turning their cheek on smokers -- even if it bothers them.
I think being able to look the other way is very important in many things, but not here. People all over the world have had to stand up against things that they believe are not right. In the case of smoking, smokers are becoming the minority and we now know how bad it is for general health. And I refuse to look the other way if I think my rights are being walked over. That does not make me small minded.
Also, when you try to tell others to live by your credos, I would suggest following them yourself…
[That was why I said it would be wonderful in a Live and let live society where people thought about each others needs and wants, giving each other space to get along.
because waay back in this conversation, you basically told me that my co-worker who smelled of smoke and was making me sick was not the problem. You said it was my problem because of allergies…Live and let live, huh?
.. if the only problem was he smelled of smoke, I would think it would be on you to control your allergy problem.
…then you say stuff like live and let live, you confuse the heck out of me. How am I supposed to live if I feel imposed upon?
You asked early on if I was biased by my personal experiences with smokers and I agreed with you and said that I am willing to admit it that my bias has formulated some hefty discrimination of smokers… but I believe your bias is in that the smoke simply doesn’t bother you. My guess is that you are in a very small group of people who are actually non-smokers who don’t really mind smoke or butts all over.
Perhaps a small minority I am but its really not an issue of being bothered,
its more of an issue of wanting to let others do their thing
most especially when they are following the bans in place.
I'm just not the type of person who goes off on others or looks for stuff to dislike.
Quite the opposite.
But there is also a group that are non smokers who don't feel as strongly
as you and some of the others on here.
My daughter would be an example and many of her friends,
and honestly most non smokers I know.
They don't find that its an issue to feel strongly about,
They feel the bans that are in place now are fair and should stay as is.
Live and Let live is a 2 way street. Because you have allergies you can not expect someone
to quit smoking so they do not smell like smoke.
You can expect them though not to smoke in your presence that is all.
To be honest I was blown away by your attitude,
not sure if it was arrogance you were showing,
that you felt it would be ok for another man to be unemployed because he smelled like smoke
and that bothered you. To me that is the height of selfishness.
Of demanding of others because the world revolves around you.
This was a huge clue to me to your mindset.
If I was your boss and the smoker was doing an excellent job
believe you me I would not ever let him go because it was bothering your allergies!!
Team players in business are most important.
Oh I think I live by what I feel and say thank you.
We will never meet on this one because it is clear you and many non smokers here
are unwilling to compromise.
That is a sign of lost reason and a closed mind.
I am as I have said totally for all bans that are in place currently
but do not think it fair to ban smoking in open air on the public street
as a few nonsmokers here believe should also be in place.
Live and Let live is a 2 way street. Because you have allergies you can not expect someone
to quit smoking so they do not smell like smoke.
You can expect them though not to smoke in your presence that is all.
To be honest I was blown away by your attitude,
not sure if it was arrogance you were showing,
that you felt it would be ok for another man to be unemployed because he smelled like smoke
and that bothered you. To me that is the height of selfishness.
Of demanding of others because the world revolves around you.
This was a huge clue to me to your mindset.
If I was your boss and the smoker was doing an excellent job
believe you me I would not ever let him go because it was bothering your allergies!!
Team players in business are most important.
Oh I think I live by what I feel and say thank you.
We will never meet on this one because it is clear you and many non smokers here
are unwilling to compromise.
That is a sign of lost reason and a closed mind.
I am as I have said totally for all bans that are in place currently
but do not think it fair to ban smoking in open air on the public street
as a few nonsmokers here believe should also be in place.
You are right we will never see eye to eye on this, especially if you keep calling me and others in here close-minded for attempting to live a healthy lifestyle. For the record, I don’t think smoking should be banned on public streets either.
Also, I never said my co-worker should’ve quit smoking. You just assumed that without answering what I was supposed to do. However, I AM more concerned about people around me that he was. Personally if I was going to go around smelling like an ashtray for 8 hrs at work, I would assume that I would cause other people discomfort – That would force me to conform to a different set of rules. If I was him, I would wash my hands and change my shirt after a cigarette. I don’t care if I had to bring 10 fucking shirts to work, I would change it every time because I REFUSE to infringe on anyone else’s ability to breathe clean air whether they had allergies or not. Honestly though if he smoked 1 or 2 every now and then, it wouldn’t have bothered me, but they guy smoked 2 an hour and (my once clean office) was suddenly smelling like an ashtray. And if he was doing an excellent job, trust me, I am a team player that would’ve tried my best to find a compromise that we might work together, but it would have to involve him reducing the amount of smoke that he exposed the whole office to
You have no clue of my mindset btw, and I am amazed that you would say I am arrogant for being OK with someone losing their job because they smell horribly – That guy was the anti-team player in my opinion and did nothing to help the situation! I asked the guy nicely several times to try to keep the smells to a minimum. I am also amazed that you get that I think the world revolves around me because I had trouble breathing at my job because of someone else’s unhealthy bad habit! Like I said, what happened to LIVE AnD LET LIVE? How do you suggest I was supposed to live? You’ve had zero answers for that. In fact, if that work scenario would’ve continued, then I would’ve been out of a job because of someone else’s habit! Live and let live right? Haha, you gotta be kidding me. You have come quickly to judge me on this as I said, under your bias because smoke doesn’t bother you. How would you feel if your daughter had asthma and was suddenly forced to work with a smoker that inhibited her abilities to function?
I’ve compromised plenty, I still go to bars, restaurants, and music venues where smoking is prevalent. I don’t like it, but I endure it because I love music.
But, unwillingness to compromise is NOT a sign of lost reason and a close mind. Sorry Pandora, but telling people they are wrong in their opinion and trying to force them to compromise to something that they adamantly (and factually) know is unhealthy and affects them adversely is close-minded and lacks any reason.
When we spoke about it I asked you if he was a good worker would you still have been ok with him being fired cause he smelled of smoke, you said yes. That still blows my mind.
Sorry you can not feel how that seems to me.
Ok I am now stumped! We will reiterate ....
if it can't be made illegal to smoke on the street
and I am for the current bans which is also what you are for.
you say you are unwilling to compromise..
but no one is asking you to compromise if public smoking can't be made illegal?
Everything just stays status quo.Life is awesome!
You must be happy then with the current status of things as I am.
So we must agree that things are quite cool between smokers and nonsmokers...
not jerks though, we both think they suck,
and we have agreed earlier that there are jerk smokers and jerk non smokers
those being the inconsiderate fucks that will forever walk the earth.
When we spoke about it I asked you if he was a good worker would you still have been ok with him being fired cause he smelled of smoke, you said yes. That still blows my mind.
Sorry you can not feel how that seems to me.
Ok I am now stumped! We will reiterate ....
if it can't be made illegal to smoke on the street
and I am for the current bans which is also what you are for.
you say you are unwilling to compromise..
but no one is asking you to compromise if public smoking can't be made illegal?
Everything just stays status quo.Life is awesome!
You must be happy then with the current status of things as I am.
So we must agree that things are quite cool between smokers and nonsmokers...
not jerks though, we both think they suck,
and we have agreed earlier that there are jerk smokers and jerk non smokers
those being the inconsiderate fucks that will forever walk the earth.
Step out of your own shoes for one second -- I bet you'd be whistling a different tune if you worked a job for a long time that suddenly changed as it gave you an instant headache, watery eyes, and a stufy nose everyday.
Just try to consider two random guys who suddenly find themselves working together… The 1st guy is just living his life without imposing on the other. Then the 2nd guy imposes something on the guy who is minding his own business. Why must the first guy compromise his health?
You also never answered my questions a second time – If the smoking co-worker wouldn’t compromise (cut back, or not smoke at work, wash hands, change shirt, whatever..) to make it a livable environment for both of us, what should I have done?
I would’ve been OK with him being fired because that would’ve proven that HE wasn’t a team player either – he refused to change for the better of the office. It was HIS choice. Again, if I was in his situation, I would do everything I could to make my co-workers lives easier, which is a huge example of being a team player. He was made aware that it was a problem and did nothing about it. No one NEEDS to smoke at work. It is a choice that he made that was imposed upon me and many others. I worked there for 11 years without a problem, and this guy comes along and made breathing difficult. Seriously, what should I have done?
No I am not happy with the current status of things – but I live with it until I can’t stand to live any more. I compromise a lot. I would be happier if my favorite music venue was smoke-free, but I will live with it. I would love if my Dad quit smoking so he doesn’t die early, but I’ll have to live with that. I find butts in the sand at my favorite beach, but I’ll live with that (or maybe I’ll do what Cosmo did and join a beach cleanup to clean up after the inconsiderate ones).
But yeah, we can agree that there are jerks of all kinds, smokers or not. But when you say live and let live, without sounding like the world revolves (a horrible accusation btw) around me… please I beg, I’d rather not breathe toxic chemicals at home or at work…let me just live please.
When we spoke about it I asked you if he was a good worker would you still have been ok with him being fired cause he smelled of smoke, you said yes. That still blows my mind.
Sorry you can not feel how that seems to me.
Ok I am now stumped! We will reiterate ....
if it can't be made illegal to smoke on the street
and I am for the current bans which is also what you are for.
you say you are unwilling to compromise..
but no one is asking you to compromise if public smoking can't be made illegal?
Everything just stays status quo.Life is awesome!
You must be happy then with the current status of things as I am.
So we must agree that things are quite cool between smokers and nonsmokers...
not jerks though, we both think they suck,
and we have agreed earlier that there are jerk smokers and jerk non smokers
those being the inconsiderate fucks that will forever walk the earth.
Step out of your own shoes for one second -- I bet you'd be whistling a different tune if you worked a job for a long time that suddenly changed as it gave you an instant headache, watery eyes, and a stufy nose everyday.
Just try to consider two random guys who suddenly find themselves working together… The 1st guy is just living his life without imposing on the other. Then the 2nd guy imposes something on the guy who is minding his own business. Why must the first guy compromise his health?
You also never answered my questions a second time – If the smoking co-worker wouldn’t compromise (cut back, or not smoke at work, wash hands, change shirt, whatever..) to make it a livable environment for both of us, what should I have done?
I would’ve been OK with him being fired because that would’ve proven that HE wasn’t a team player either – he refused to change for the better of the office. It was HIS choice. Again, if I was in his situation, I would do everything I could to make my co-workers lives easier, which is a huge example of being a team player. He was made aware that it was a problem and did nothing about it. No one NEEDS to smoke at work. It is a choice that he made that was imposed upon me and many others. I worked there for 11 years without a problem, and this guy comes along and made breathing difficult. Seriously, what should I have done?
No I am not happy with the current status of things – but I live with it until I can’t stand to live any more. I compromise a lot. I would be happier if my favorite music venue was smoke-free, but I will live with it. I would love if my Dad quit smoking so he doesn’t die early, but I’ll have to live with that. I find butts in the sand at my favorite beach, but I’ll live with that (or maybe I’ll do what Cosmo did and join a beach cleanup to clean up after the inconsiderate ones).
But yeah, we can agree that there are jerks of all kinds, smokers or not. But when you say live and let live, without sounding like the world revolves (a horrible accusation btw) around me… please I beg, I’d rather not breathe toxic chemicals at home or at work…let me just live please.
I'm running to get fun stuff for tonight so this is quick...
I was under the impression that it was the fact he smelled of smoke.
Is he smoking in designated areas? not in your space?
Then if he was following those rules and a good worker then no I don't think he should be fired.
If he was a bad worker on that alone he should be fired.
If he smoked around you which was a banned area then yes he should be fired.
I got the impression you were ok with him getting fired just cause he smelled like smoke.
I still feel that is wrong. It's the mans livelihood. Allergies are tough
I know people here who have terrible reactions due to our high pollen.
They stay very medicated and it is a drag.
If it were me dealing with an allergy to smoke, just the smell on someone
I guess I would have to medicate cause I would not ask him to give up his job for me,
good or bad worker, but that is me not trying to change you.
not on the subject really but wine stuffs me up and weed makes my eyes water
but I still partake, my choice, I live with it cause its damn fun!
Happy Friday I hope you have some fun planned and Enjoy!!
I'm running to get fun stuff for tonight so this is quick...
I was under the impression that it was the fact he smelled of smoke.
Is he smoking in designated areas? not in your space?
Then if he was following those rules and a good worker then no I don't think he should be fired.
If he was a bad worker on that alone he should be fired.
If he smoked around you which was a banned area then yes he should be fired.
I got the impression you were ok with him getting fired just cause he smelled like smoke.
I still feel that is wrong. It's the mans livelihood. Allergies are tough
I know people here who have terrible reactions due to our high pollen.
They stay very medicated and it is a drag.
If it were me dealing with an allergy to smoke, just the smell on someone
I guess I would have to medicate cause I would not ask him to give up his job for me,
good or bad worker, but that is me not trying to change you.
not on the subject really but wine stuffs me up and weed makes my eyes water
but I still partake, my choice, I live with it cause its damn fun!
Happy Friday I hope you have some fun planned and Enjoy!!
Well, He quit the same day he was gonna be fired. We was being fired for being a lousy employee and because of his smells... It wasnt just smoke though. His feet actually smelled like a dead animal and he wore sandals all the time. I also asked him to wear shoes. He tried, but forgot all the time (so he claimed). honestly, he made the room smell like a combination of ashtray and dead animal, it was the worst months of my whole life.
He did smoke outside, but the smells on his clothes were the same as if he would light up in the office. I merely said I would be OK with him being fired (and that was a theorectical situation) because the way I saw it was that it was either him or me (i couldnt work in those conditions, even medicated), and I had been there a lot longer and was a courteous employee, and he was not. Even if he was a good worker, (I guess there is more to the story)...if you're not courteous to your co-workers and their needs to some degree, your're not a team player in my eyes.
If this wasnt a theoretical situation, of course, I'd rather not see someone lose their livelihood, but he would have been given a choice to limit the smoking, whereas I don't have the choice to breathe clean air or not with him around. I was being forced.
Cosmos, I have told 3 times what I was speaking of and he kept taking my statement out of context... to me thats being a bit small minded and working words to make someone else look invalid.You would have said something too if it were you.
But you had already done the same thing - not just to me specifically but to the entire group of people who disagree with you - in a more blatant and sensationalistic way even.
If to you a small mind is someone who does not agree with you,
does not believe the rest of the world revolves around them,
and is a person who is open enough to look the other way
and enjoy people despite their bad habits then so be it.
Cosmos, I have told 3 times what I was speaking of and he kept taking my statement out of context... to me thats being a bit small minded and working words to make someone else look invalid.You would have said something too if it were you.
But you had already done the same thing - not just to me specifically but to the entire group of people who disagree with you - in a more blatant and sensationalistic way even.
If to you a small mind is someone who does not agree with you,
does not believe the rest of the world revolves around them,
and is a person who is open enough to look the other way
and enjoy people despite their bad habits then so be it.
See, there you go doing it again.
True probably need to get out more Lord knows
you'll need to show a specific quote cause I'm old and don't remember when I treated an entire group badly.
That doesn't really sound like me cause I don't care if someone agrees with me or not..
and I am usually pretty good to others.
I will say the pretend 12 hour thing didn't bring the best out in people here... not very compassionate to the pain of the smokers, even when the smokers were following the banning rules
so if you are talking about a statement directed to the group that they were being less than understanding I stand by it, cause they were.
Hey I stand by the last thing I said too.
Sorry but that there is the truth. Being open minded is being reasonable and compromising and accepting others imperfections even when those faults tread on us.
Imperfect world full of imperfect people.
The really funny thing here is I agree there should be bans. You'd think with all this excitement I was against banning entirely!!
I feel that what's in place now if enforced properly should satisfy everyone.
It is you scb that is unhappy with the current smoking bans and feel harsher restrictions should be placed on others.Restrictions that not just myself would find unreasonable.
And it was you that was harsh and yes a bit out of control because I did not agree with your opinion.
Its a small mind who is unwilling to listen to another viewpoint or attempts to twist it to fit theirs....
So to clarify, my point was indeed valid unless someone who is acting jerky fails to comprehend it in order to support their own opinion.
Wow, you're on a roll with the insults these days, huh? Let me just point out that these exact same statements could be made about you in this thread.
I think you jumped on me long before me on you in fact you lost all control.That was obvious.
Cosmos, I have told 3 times what I was speaking of and he kept taking my statement out of context... to me thats being a bit small minded and working words to make someone else look invalid.You would have said something too if it were you.
If to you a small mind is someone who does not agree with you,
does not believe the rest of the world revolves around them,
and is a person who is open enough to look the other way
and enjoy people despite their bad habits then so be it.
You can find me with the big bad smokers ...I'll be hanging with my smokin buds
listening to some southern rock at the local bar, enjoying them and myself,
not freaking out about what I smell like,
how often I must wash my hair,
worrying about 5 years off the end of my life due to second hand smoke,
which I don't get enough to worry about anyways and
besides the last 5 years of life is spent peeing ones pants and forgetting ones name anyways...wonderful
so I think I'll enjoy now!
Lighten up thats what keeps you living the longest
...
This is the post I am referring to...
"no perhaps not smokers are courteous of others with their habit and stay in areas designated for public smoking
nonsmokers respect the fact that there are people who smoke in designated areas":
That was why I said it would be wonderful in a Live and let live society where people thought about each others needs and wants, giving each other space to get along.
I think i follow you:
Smokers give the non-smokers clean air by not smoking in public (indoors or outdoors). Non-smokers pay the taxes that will cover the disproportionate medical costs of smokers in this new age of American socialism.
no perhaps not
smokers are courteous of others with their habit and stay in areas designated for public smoking
nonsmokers respect the fact that there are people who smoke in designated areas
theres really nothing to it
oh and we all pay taxes for everyone who is in need and also for the governments huge deficit
actually we pay taxes to cover just the interest on the huge government deficit...another thread
...
What exactly, have I taken out of context?
As it lays, this statement is invalid because smokers are not courteous of others... otherwise, we would not find cigrette butts all over the streets and sidewalks. Smokers are cutting their own throats every time they flick a cigarette to the ground.
And you DID NOT clarify your comment... all you said was there are inconsiderate people who don't smoke, too... to which I agreed. But, the non-smokers are not the ones using our streets as their ashtrays.
I am disappointed that you continually try to portray me as closed minded. I am just trying to inject some factual evidence into this discussion. Apparently, you choose to find my points disagreeable and instead of just letting it be a case of we just disagree... you get defensive and try to paint me a 'small minded'. Being as open minded as yourself... don't you find just a hint of irony there?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Regarding people being expected to not reek at work, I don't think that's uncommon. It's certainly not a persecution of smokers. I had to send a skilled physician home from clinic one day because he reeked of body odor. That are certain standards to professionalism other than just being good at your job. I actually got sent home from a job once for not wearing a bra. (I never wore a bra to work because I had to wear a vest over my clothes and you couldn't tell. But one day, for just one hour, they put me in a different position and didn't let me wear my vest. So it's not like I thought it was appropriate to come to work bra-less or something.) I despise bras - and for all I know maybe that doc despises showers - but we we have to make sacrifices in the name of professionalism. I don't think smokers should be any exception.
Aside from laws, policies, and standards of professionalism, there is just plain courtesy. It seems that some people want to accuse non-smokers who don't want to be imposed on of not being courteous, and yet don't hold smokers to the same standard. As others have already said, many people do things out of courtesy even if they're not required to do them. The smell of Indian food makes my office mate feel sick, so I never eat Indian food at work. I also don't eat strong-smelling fish, burn popcorn, or wear strong perfume. Much as I sometimes feel like it's necessary to burn scented candles in my own home, I don't burn them when I think my mom might stop by because the smell gives her headaches. I also try to have my cat litter and toilets clean when I'm having company. I don't have to. I really hate to clean, it's my house, and if people don't like it they don't have to come over. But I sacrifice my limited free time to clean my house out of courtesy for other people - even for strangers like repair men, etc. I also let people in front of me in traffic, give up my seat to little old ladies, and try not to pass gas in the presence of others. People act with courtesy all the time in this society, and they should, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to - whether there's a law or policy enforcing it or not.
Regarding the current regulations being the obvious perfect and fair neutral ground on this issue, that doesn't even make sense. It's completely arbitrary to say that this is the exact level of encroachment onto the autonomy of others where absolute justice lies. People who live in other systems probably think their status quo is what's right. And the previous status quo here used to be seen as what's right. Were the people who think the current regulations are necessarily to only fair way to go fighting for more regulation when there was less than this? If the current system is absolutely just, then the previous system must have been unjust, right? Or did they think the bans at that time were acceptable but increasing them to the current level was acceptable too? If so, why is the notion of increasing them some more so absolutely outrageous but the previous increase wasn't? This line of reasoning just isn't logical. Regardless, even the people who agree that the status quo is the way to go aren't necessarily in agreement since regulations differ by city.
The fact that smoke doesn't bother some people doesn't justify allowing it to bother many, many others - especially when we know it's bad for your health. I grew up on Air Force bases. The bombers would constantly fly really low above our homes, really loudly, shaking the house. That doesn't really bother me. I can live like that. So can a whole lot of other people. Does that mean everyone else should be forced to live with planes flying super-low over their homes? Or should it be regulated? If so, what about the rights & feelings of the pilots and the military? The logic that just because some people don't mind being subjected to smoke means that other people should have to be just isn't generalizable.
And what does it really mean to live and let live? There seems to be quite a bit of disagreement about this around here. Isn't this supposed to represent some kind of neutral position? Doesn't it mean we can all do whatever we want as long as we don't bother other people? So how does it apply to the idea that person A can bother person B if it doesn't surpass X amount? Where is the compromise in that? How is this equal or neutral? What does person B get out of the deal? Person A gets the pleasure of doing whatever it is they do that bothers person B - even if it's not as much as they'd like. But there's no reciprocal right for person B in this situation. It seems some folks want to say that what person B gets out of the deal is that they get to not be bothered even more. Huh?? That's like coming up to someone and saying, "I'm not going to punch you in the face today, so therefore you owe me. The compromise is that if I don't get to punch you in the face today, I should have the right to punch you in the face tomorrow." And this is justified by saying it's relaxing for that person to punch people in the face, so therefore he has the right to do it. This makes absolutely no sense in our notion of justice. Here's another example of unequal "compromise": Black people used to be enslaved in this country. Then they were emancipated, which was a HUGE sacrifice on the part of their owners. The black folks really got a lot out of that deal. Does that mean that it's therefore fair to not allow them to vote, or work the same jobs or eat at the same restaurants as white people? People used to see that as a good compromise and they defended the status quo fiercely.
Here's a question to help us get to the bottom of this: Are people saying that allowing smokers to smoke in the currently designated areas doesn't bother others? Or are they saying that others should put up with a certain amount of being bothered? I think I've heard both arguments.
Finally: I don't have a problem with smokers. I have a problem with smoke. That's not discriminatory, mean, self-centered, closed-minded, or judgmental.
ETA: Whoa - that's longer than I thought it was. :oops:
RADIO EDIT -
Here's a question to help us get to the bottom of this: Are people saying that allowing smokers to smoke in the currently designated areas doesn't bother others? Or are they saying that others should put up with a certain amount of being bothered? I think I've heard both arguments.
Finally: I don't have a problem with smokers. I have a problem with smoke. That's not discriminatory, mean, self-centered, closed-minded, or judgmental.
ETA: Whoa - that's longer than I thought it was. :oops:
...
I have no problem with smokers... partially because I am a smoker, I guess. I hang out with the smokers in our designated areas and avoid lighting up where I am not allowed to... I have no problem with that.
I don't think my bad habit should be inflicted on others... I don't care who they are. This includes, using my street as an ashtray.
I understand the health risks and do not want to be the cause of anyone else's discomfort.
I guess it all comes from being a closed minded person.
...
Let me add this... I am old... I graduated high school in 1973. Just because I'm old, does not mean I am wise. This applies to everyone. I understand this.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
And I think that is the point.
anyway, triumphant angel had the best post in this thread already.
to reiterate.
I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your fuckin' mouth.
-Bill Hicks.
I know you're not serious.
The point is... people, even smokers, are aware of litter and typically look for a trash can. But, for some reason, smokers do not consider cigarette butts as litter. Even if there is a trash can, there are cigarette butts on the ground around it. My point being... Pandora's assessment that smokers are considerate is invalidated by the physical evidence of cigarette butts all over the city streets.
Hail, Hail!!!
You haven't had a smoke with me, yet. And yeah, I admit... it is an extremely rare occurance for me because there are trash cans all over the place. But, i have put them in my back pocket temporarily, til I pass a trash can or ashtray. My clothes smells like smoke anyway, right?
Hail, Hail!!!
Its a small mind who is unwilling to listen to another viewpoint or attempts to twist it to fit theirs.
Again, if you would read back through what I said I did not say that all smokers were courteous, that being taken out of text... kind of like our newspapers and news do. :roll:
I said in a perfect live and let live world where people actually care about each other
they would all be courteous.... I also said that would never happen.
So to clarify, my point was indeed valid unless someone who is acting jerky fails to comprehend it in order to support their own opinion.
Also, here's something Pearl Jam related == I think in the Italy DVD, Eddie can be seen puttin out a cig and carrying the butt way over to the entrance of the ampitheater and discarding it... Good job Ed.
It may be cultural to just throw your butt on the ground, but we can change that by telling smokers who are littering that they are indeed littering. Spread the word.
We used to have a boat and had many smoking friends on it. They would throw their butts in the water. OK, gross, you're swimming in that water! We had to keep a coffee can on the boat and insist they flick their butts in there. Over time, they just stopped littering. You just have to say something.
And inevitably there will be people who say we are being mean and close-minded and trampling on their rights.
Wow, you're on a roll with the insults these days, huh? Let me just point out that these exact same statements could be made about you in this thread.
we've had a butt load of that on this topic which side are you speaking of ..non-smokers or smokers.
Godfather.
Well not all the smokers and not all the non-smokers are on the same same in this thread.
Cosmos, I have told 3 times what I was speaking of and he kept taking my statement out of context... to me thats being a bit small minded and working words to make someone else look invalid.You would have said something too if it were you.
If to you a small mind is someone who does not agree with you,
does not believe the rest of the world revolves around them,
and is a person who is open enough to look the other way
and enjoy people despite their bad habits then so be it.
You can find me with the big bad smokers ...I'll be hanging with my smokin buds
listening to some southern rock at the local bar, enjoying them and myself,
not freaking out about what I smell like,
how often I must wash my hair,
worrying about 5 years off the end of my life due to second hand smoke,
which I don't get enough to worry about anyways and
besides the last 5 years of life is spent peeing ones pants and forgetting ones name anyways...wonderful
so I think I'll enjoy now!
Lighten up thats what keeps you living the longest
Honestly Pandora, I think you are a wise person and have a great outlook on life in general. I respect you. And I also respect smokers rights. I try to respect people that have any habit whether it is good or bad.
I’m not sure exactly what you meant in the above quote, but I gotta add what I think might be bothersome throughout this whole debate. You say that people should be open enough to look the other way. And I assume you mean under certain circumstances..such as non-smokers turning their cheek on smokers -- even if it bothers them.
I think being able to look the other way is very important in many things, but not here. People all over the world have had to stand up against things that they believe are not right. In the case of smoking, smokers are becoming the minority and we now know how bad it is for general health. And I refuse to look the other way if I think my rights are being walked over. That does not make me small minded.
Also, when you try to tell others to live by your credos, I would suggest following them yourself…
because waay back in this conversation, you basically told me that my co-worker who smelled of smoke and was making me sick was not the problem. You said it was my problem because of allergies…Live and let live, huh?
…then you say stuff like live and let live, you confuse the heck out of me. How am I supposed to live if I feel imposed upon?
You asked early on if I was biased by my personal experiences with smokers and I agreed with you and said that I am willing to admit it that my bias has formulated some hefty discrimination of smokers… but I believe your bias is in that the smoke simply doesn’t bother you. My guess is that you are in a very small group of people who are actually non-smokers who don’t really mind smoke or butts all over.
its more of an issue of wanting to let others do their thing
most especially when they are following the bans in place.
I'm just not the type of person who goes off on others or looks for stuff to dislike.
Quite the opposite.
But there is also a group that are non smokers who don't feel as strongly
as you and some of the others on here.
My daughter would be an example and many of her friends,
and honestly most non smokers I know.
They don't find that its an issue to feel strongly about,
They feel the bans that are in place now are fair and should stay as is.
Live and Let live is a 2 way street. Because you have allergies you can not expect someone
to quit smoking so they do not smell like smoke.
You can expect them though not to smoke in your presence that is all.
To be honest I was blown away by your attitude,
not sure if it was arrogance you were showing,
that you felt it would be ok for another man to be unemployed because he smelled like smoke
and that bothered you. To me that is the height of selfishness.
Of demanding of others because the world revolves around you.
This was a huge clue to me to your mindset.
If I was your boss and the smoker was doing an excellent job
believe you me I would not ever let him go because it was bothering your allergies!!
Team players in business are most important.
Oh I think I live by what I feel and say thank you.
We will never meet on this one because it is clear you and many non smokers here
are unwilling to compromise.
That is a sign of lost reason and a closed mind.
I am as I have said totally for all bans that are in place currently
but do not think it fair to ban smoking in open air on the public street
as a few nonsmokers here believe should also be in place.
You are right we will never see eye to eye on this, especially if you keep calling me and others in here close-minded for attempting to live a healthy lifestyle. For the record, I don’t think smoking should be banned on public streets either.
Also, I never said my co-worker should’ve quit smoking. You just assumed that without answering what I was supposed to do. However, I AM more concerned about people around me that he was. Personally if I was going to go around smelling like an ashtray for 8 hrs at work, I would assume that I would cause other people discomfort – That would force me to conform to a different set of rules. If I was him, I would wash my hands and change my shirt after a cigarette. I don’t care if I had to bring 10 fucking shirts to work, I would change it every time because I REFUSE to infringe on anyone else’s ability to breathe clean air whether they had allergies or not. Honestly though if he smoked 1 or 2 every now and then, it wouldn’t have bothered me, but they guy smoked 2 an hour and (my once clean office) was suddenly smelling like an ashtray. And if he was doing an excellent job, trust me, I am a team player that would’ve tried my best to find a compromise that we might work together, but it would have to involve him reducing the amount of smoke that he exposed the whole office to
You have no clue of my mindset btw, and I am amazed that you would say I am arrogant for being OK with someone losing their job because they smell horribly – That guy was the anti-team player in my opinion and did nothing to help the situation! I asked the guy nicely several times to try to keep the smells to a minimum. I am also amazed that you get that I think the world revolves around me because I had trouble breathing at my job because of someone else’s unhealthy bad habit! Like I said, what happened to LIVE AnD LET LIVE? How do you suggest I was supposed to live? You’ve had zero answers for that. In fact, if that work scenario would’ve continued, then I would’ve been out of a job because of someone else’s habit! Live and let live right? Haha, you gotta be kidding me. You have come quickly to judge me on this as I said, under your bias because smoke doesn’t bother you. How would you feel if your daughter had asthma and was suddenly forced to work with a smoker that inhibited her abilities to function?
I’ve compromised plenty, I still go to bars, restaurants, and music venues where smoking is prevalent. I don’t like it, but I endure it because I love music.
But, unwillingness to compromise is NOT a sign of lost reason and a close mind. Sorry Pandora, but telling people they are wrong in their opinion and trying to force them to compromise to something that they adamantly (and factually) know is unhealthy and affects them adversely is close-minded and lacks any reason.
Sorry you can not feel how that seems to me.
Ok I am now stumped! We will reiterate ....
if it can't be made illegal to smoke on the street
and I am for the current bans which is also what you are for.
you say you are unwilling to compromise..
but no one is asking you to compromise if public smoking can't be made illegal?
Everything just stays status quo.Life is awesome!
You must be happy then with the current status of things as I am.
So we must agree that things are quite cool between smokers and nonsmokers...
not jerks though, we both think they suck,
and we have agreed earlier that there are jerk smokers and jerk non smokers
those being the inconsiderate fucks that will forever walk the earth.
Step out of your own shoes for one second -- I bet you'd be whistling a different tune if you worked a job for a long time that suddenly changed as it gave you an instant headache, watery eyes, and a stufy nose everyday.
Just try to consider two random guys who suddenly find themselves working together… The 1st guy is just living his life without imposing on the other. Then the 2nd guy imposes something on the guy who is minding his own business. Why must the first guy compromise his health?
You also never answered my questions a second time – If the smoking co-worker wouldn’t compromise (cut back, or not smoke at work, wash hands, change shirt, whatever..) to make it a livable environment for both of us, what should I have done?
I would’ve been OK with him being fired because that would’ve proven that HE wasn’t a team player either – he refused to change for the better of the office. It was HIS choice. Again, if I was in his situation, I would do everything I could to make my co-workers lives easier, which is a huge example of being a team player. He was made aware that it was a problem and did nothing about it. No one NEEDS to smoke at work. It is a choice that he made that was imposed upon me and many others. I worked there for 11 years without a problem, and this guy comes along and made breathing difficult. Seriously, what should I have done?
No I am not happy with the current status of things – but I live with it until I can’t stand to live any more. I compromise a lot. I would be happier if my favorite music venue was smoke-free, but I will live with it. I would love if my Dad quit smoking so he doesn’t die early, but I’ll have to live with that. I find butts in the sand at my favorite beach, but I’ll live with that (or maybe I’ll do what Cosmo did and join a beach cleanup to clean up after the inconsiderate ones).
But yeah, we can agree that there are jerks of all kinds, smokers or not. But when you say live and let live, without sounding like the world revolves (a horrible accusation btw) around me… please I beg, I’d rather not breathe toxic chemicals at home or at work…let me just live please.
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having a bad day ?
Godfather.
Na. Just playin'. You cats are alright...
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I was under the impression that it was the fact he smelled of smoke.
Is he smoking in designated areas? not in your space?
Then if he was following those rules and a good worker then no I don't think he should be fired.
If he was a bad worker on that alone he should be fired.
If he smoked around you which was a banned area then yes he should be fired.
I got the impression you were ok with him getting fired just cause he smelled like smoke.
I still feel that is wrong. It's the mans livelihood. Allergies are tough
I know people here who have terrible reactions due to our high pollen.
They stay very medicated and it is a drag.
If it were me dealing with an allergy to smoke, just the smell on someone
I guess I would have to medicate cause I would not ask him to give up his job for me,
good or bad worker, but that is me not trying to change you.
not on the subject really but wine stuffs me up and weed makes my eyes water
but I still partake, my choice, I live with it cause its damn fun!
Happy Friday I hope you have some fun planned and Enjoy!!
Italin kid I know in high school would always say "damit people suck", that Brother was always good for a laugh.
Godfather.
Well, He quit the same day he was gonna be fired. We was being fired for being a lousy employee and because of his smells... It wasnt just smoke though. His feet actually smelled like a dead animal and he wore sandals all the time. I also asked him to wear shoes. He tried, but forgot all the time (so he claimed). honestly, he made the room smell like a combination of ashtray and dead animal, it was the worst months of my whole life.
He did smoke outside, but the smells on his clothes were the same as if he would light up in the office. I merely said I would be OK with him being fired (and that was a theorectical situation) because the way I saw it was that it was either him or me (i couldnt work in those conditions, even medicated), and I had been there a lot longer and was a courteous employee, and he was not. Even if he was a good worker, (I guess there is more to the story)...if you're not courteous to your co-workers and their needs to some degree, your're not a team player in my eyes.
If this wasnt a theoretical situation, of course, I'd rather not see someone lose their livelihood, but he would have been given a choice to limit the smoking, whereas I don't have the choice to breathe clean air or not with him around. I was being forced.
Partly true. Our Mayor wants smoking banned at beaches and public parks. As of now, we can still walk the sidewalk with a cigarette.
It all comes down to changing your head~~John Lennon
MSG 6-24-08/MSG 5-21-10/Philly MIA 9-2-12/Chicago Wrigley Field 7-19-13/Brooklyn NY 1&2 10-2013/Philly 1&2 10-2013
But you had already done the same thing - not just to me specifically but to the entire group of people who disagree with you - in a more blatant and sensationalistic way even.
See, there you go doing it again.
you'll need to show a specific quote cause I'm old and don't remember when I treated an entire group badly.
That doesn't really sound like me cause I don't care if someone agrees with me or not..
and I am usually pretty good to others.
I will say the pretend 12 hour thing didn't bring the best out in people here... not very compassionate to the pain of the smokers, even when the smokers were following the banning rules
so if you are talking about a statement directed to the group that they were being less than understanding I stand by it, cause they were.
Hey I stand by the last thing I said too.
Sorry but that there is the truth. Being open minded is being reasonable and compromising and accepting others imperfections even when those faults tread on us.
Imperfect world full of imperfect people.
The really funny thing here is I agree there should be bans. You'd think with all this excitement I was against banning entirely!!
I feel that what's in place now if enforced properly should satisfy everyone.
It is you scb that is unhappy with the current smoking bans and feel harsher restrictions should be placed on others.Restrictions that not just myself would find unreasonable.
And it was you that was harsh and yes a bit out of control because I did not agree with your opinion.
This is the post I am referring to...
"no perhaps not smokers are courteous of others with their habit and stay in areas designated for public smoking
nonsmokers respect the fact that there are people who smoke in designated areas":
...
What exactly, have I taken out of context?
As it lays, this statement is invalid because smokers are not courteous of others... otherwise, we would not find cigrette butts all over the streets and sidewalks. Smokers are cutting their own throats every time they flick a cigarette to the ground.
And you DID NOT clarify your comment... all you said was there are inconsiderate people who don't smoke, too... to which I agreed. But, the non-smokers are not the ones using our streets as their ashtrays.
I am disappointed that you continually try to portray me as closed minded. I am just trying to inject some factual evidence into this discussion. Apparently, you choose to find my points disagreeable and instead of just letting it be a case of we just disagree... you get defensive and try to paint me a 'small minded'. Being as open minded as yourself... don't you find just a hint of irony there?
Hail, Hail!!!
Aside from laws, policies, and standards of professionalism, there is just plain courtesy. It seems that some people want to accuse non-smokers who don't want to be imposed on of not being courteous, and yet don't hold smokers to the same standard. As others have already said, many people do things out of courtesy even if they're not required to do them. The smell of Indian food makes my office mate feel sick, so I never eat Indian food at work. I also don't eat strong-smelling fish, burn popcorn, or wear strong perfume. Much as I sometimes feel like it's necessary to burn scented candles in my own home, I don't burn them when I think my mom might stop by because the smell gives her headaches. I also try to have my cat litter and toilets clean when I'm having company. I don't have to. I really hate to clean, it's my house, and if people don't like it they don't have to come over. But I sacrifice my limited free time to clean my house out of courtesy for other people - even for strangers like repair men, etc. I also let people in front of me in traffic, give up my seat to little old ladies, and try not to pass gas in the presence of others. People act with courtesy all the time in this society, and they should, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to - whether there's a law or policy enforcing it or not.
Regarding the current regulations being the obvious perfect and fair neutral ground on this issue, that doesn't even make sense. It's completely arbitrary to say that this is the exact level of encroachment onto the autonomy of others where absolute justice lies. People who live in other systems probably think their status quo is what's right. And the previous status quo here used to be seen as what's right. Were the people who think the current regulations are necessarily to only fair way to go fighting for more regulation when there was less than this? If the current system is absolutely just, then the previous system must have been unjust, right? Or did they think the bans at that time were acceptable but increasing them to the current level was acceptable too? If so, why is the notion of increasing them some more so absolutely outrageous but the previous increase wasn't? This line of reasoning just isn't logical. Regardless, even the people who agree that the status quo is the way to go aren't necessarily in agreement since regulations differ by city.
The fact that smoke doesn't bother some people doesn't justify allowing it to bother many, many others - especially when we know it's bad for your health. I grew up on Air Force bases. The bombers would constantly fly really low above our homes, really loudly, shaking the house. That doesn't really bother me. I can live like that. So can a whole lot of other people. Does that mean everyone else should be forced to live with planes flying super-low over their homes? Or should it be regulated? If so, what about the rights & feelings of the pilots and the military? The logic that just because some people don't mind being subjected to smoke means that other people should have to be just isn't generalizable.
And what does it really mean to live and let live? There seems to be quite a bit of disagreement about this around here. Isn't this supposed to represent some kind of neutral position? Doesn't it mean we can all do whatever we want as long as we don't bother other people? So how does it apply to the idea that person A can bother person B if it doesn't surpass X amount? Where is the compromise in that? How is this equal or neutral? What does person B get out of the deal? Person A gets the pleasure of doing whatever it is they do that bothers person B - even if it's not as much as they'd like. But there's no reciprocal right for person B in this situation. It seems some folks want to say that what person B gets out of the deal is that they get to not be bothered even more. Huh?? That's like coming up to someone and saying, "I'm not going to punch you in the face today, so therefore you owe me. The compromise is that if I don't get to punch you in the face today, I should have the right to punch you in the face tomorrow." And this is justified by saying it's relaxing for that person to punch people in the face, so therefore he has the right to do it. This makes absolutely no sense in our notion of justice. Here's another example of unequal "compromise": Black people used to be enslaved in this country. Then they were emancipated, which was a HUGE sacrifice on the part of their owners. The black folks really got a lot out of that deal. Does that mean that it's therefore fair to not allow them to vote, or work the same jobs or eat at the same restaurants as white people? People used to see that as a good compromise and they defended the status quo fiercely.
Here's a question to help us get to the bottom of this: Are people saying that allowing smokers to smoke in the currently designated areas doesn't bother others? Or are they saying that others should put up with a certain amount of being bothered? I think I've heard both arguments.
Finally: I don't have a problem with smokers. I have a problem with smoke. That's not discriminatory, mean, self-centered, closed-minded, or judgmental.
ETA: Whoa - that's longer than I thought it was. :oops:
I have no problem with smokers... partially because I am a smoker, I guess. I hang out with the smokers in our designated areas and avoid lighting up where I am not allowed to... I have no problem with that.
I don't think my bad habit should be inflicted on others... I don't care who they are. This includes, using my street as an ashtray.
I understand the health risks and do not want to be the cause of anyone else's discomfort.
I guess it all comes from being a closed minded person.
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Let me add this... I am old... I graduated high school in 1973. Just because I'm old, does not mean I am wise. This applies to everyone. I understand this.
Hail, Hail!!!