Here is an example, which I agree, is antecdotal, but remains within the realm of this discussion...
I live in a townhome complex... 79 units, 4 family homes per building.
A woman artist did work in her garage... she made those giganitc pieces you see usually see in banks. The medium used was resin, acid and other materials that emit an odor.
Her upstairs neignbor was a mother and her two sons. The kid's bedroom was above the garages. The fumes from the chemicals really affected her older son. He got headaches and bloody noses from it.
When she went to he artist neighbor to complain, she was told that the garage was her property and she could do whatever she wanted in there.
This dispute came to the asociation board.
The artist claimed that she was within her rights as a homeowner to do what she did in her own garage... it would be just as if she were a smoker, smoking in her own home.
The sick boy's mother argued that it was not the case because the fumes were not contained to the artist's property and encroached on her home, affecting the health of her son.
The board pointed to the CCand R's that all homeowners agreed to when they bought into the community. One of the rules being that you cannot run a commercial business from your home. This is to keep someome from running an auto repair shop from their garage.
The artist argued that people run businesses from their home offices, to which it was made clear that home offices do not interfere with the community, unless there is a lot of customer traffic. It was suggested that the artist seek a commercial building that would accomodate her work.
She said that it was her livelihood and her right to continue with her art and she could not afford the expense of a commercial facility. She said her neighbor and her kids had several choices:
A. Move the kids to another room (which wouldn't matter because the whole upstairs smelled like resin).
B. The upstairs neighbors could run fans to air out their home.
C. The mother and sons could sell their place and move to another home.
D. Her upstairs neighbors could just deal with it.
She also threatened a lawsuit if she were made to cease her livelihood by the board.
...
How would you decide?
...
Turns out... when the board talked to the city, the city fire department shut down the operation because of the storage and use of toxic chemicals in an inadequately ventilated facility. Homeowner Association rules would not allow the installation of a commercial grade ventilation system... just like it would not allow you to build an incinerator in your garage.
...
That solved this problem... but, what about the artist's point about smoking? That was a valid point, although it did not apply to her specific situation because acid and resin is not the same as cigarette smoke.
Cosmo, great analogy (especially for those of us who feel the effects of smoking that compromise our health and are unable to escape it)
But we must be careful to voice our opinions against the artist, we might be considered close-minded and selfish in some circles.
Btw, there are a lot of interesting analogies floating around here, and the dip/chew thing is one of them. It doenst affect the health of bystandards, but it is really fucking gross to look at. I have a friend that does it, and I have no problem with it, but I always cringe that he might spill it somewhere..
Also, in regards to Tremors topic of unhealthy foods, I was interested to see how a local regulation here in FL would do in our schools. They are limiting and/or banning certain sodas and unhealty drinks. They are even going as far as considering taking chocolate milk out of schools. I'm not sure how I feel about all this, but I know I drank a shitload of soda as a kid and it took me awhile to stop drinking it, but if it wasnt all over the place, I might not have drank so much of it. They seem to be trying very hard to get kids to eat healthier around the schools in my state.
I think the difference is there are smoking bans in place and areas where smokers can smoke as there should be.
Nonsmokers can avoid the areas and enjoy restaurants, bars, workplace without smoke because it is banned, as in this restaurant.
I thought of this experience cause they were discussing leaving gum about, not to compare the two habits.
My only point was more the dealing with it. In my opinion we must sometimes just deal with it, I am old school, very old school I except the imperfectness of this world and the people who live in it, not really looking to change it except I would hope for less judgment of others, more compassion and love in our world.
...
Yes... I agree about the tolerance part. And it works both ways.
Smokers may be restricted to a portion of a restaurant, for example... but does the smoke, itself, recognize and respect these boundaries? No. The smoke will go where ever smoke tends to go and it is out of control of both smoker and non-smoker. But, ultimately... who is responsible for the smoke?
And yes... if a non-smoker walks into a designated smoking area or a cigar bar and complains about the smoke... they are the one with the problem. But, we are not addressing these anomallies. We are talking about public areas.
The smoking ban at the beaches in not so much the issue of the smoke... it is because of all of the cigarette butts that are left behind. For some reason, cigarette butts don't seem to be litter. Almost religiously, someone may gather up all of their paper and food trash and put it in the garbage... put plastic bottles and aluminum cans in the recycle bin... but, for some reason... flick their cigarette butts to the ground. Why is that?
If the smokers really did have compassion and love for others, they would refrain from smoking in areas where the smoke that is out of their control does not affect non-smokers. I don't think all of the judgement and lack of compassion is coming from only the non-smoker's side of the table. It seems to me that it is more of a matter of consideration, than judgement or compassion.
...
Again... this is coming from a person that smokes. If I'm at a bar and feel like firing up... I go to the designated area an have a smoke with the smokers. In California, those areas are outside.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Yeah, my own belief is that nobody should be in a situation where they are forced to passive smoke, ever really.
But I also think that now this scenario is completely viable, in Britain at least - this has become a 'Crusade' which is making the lives of anyone who does smoke, even on their own, more and more intolerable.
I'm a pedestrian, and am pretty fit despite my smoking - but the amount of crap which is pouring out of the back of inconsiderate drivers' cars and down my lungs is outrageous..... and it doesn't even give me a hit! There are people driving 1 mile up the road to the cash machines outside the supermarket, parking their car right next to the things, when there is a car park 15 metres walk away, leaving the engine running with petrol (gasoline) fumes pumping out over everybody else in the queue, while their fat wife waddles up to withdraw £50 to spend on the national lottery!! I dread to think what level of passive petrol-fume smoking is going on across the world right now, a damn sight more than passive tobacco smoking, that's for sure.
Cancel my subscription to the Ressurection
Send my credentials to the house of detention
I'm a pedestrian, and am pretty fit despite my smoking - but the amount of crap which is pouring out of the back of inconsiderate drivers' cars and down my lungs is outrageous..... and it doesn't even give me a hit! There are people driving 1 mile up the road to the cash machines outside the supermarket, parking their car right next to the things, when there is a car park 15 metres walk away, leaving the engine running with petrol (gasoline) fumes pumping out over everybody else in the queue, while their fat wife waddles up to withdraw £50 to spend on the national lottery!! I dread to think what level of passive petrol-fume smoking is going on across the world right now, a damn sight more than passive tobacco smoking, that's for sure.
...
This is a great parallel example to the discussion going on...
Is it the driver's right to do this?
Is it being considerate or courteous to others?
Can't you avoid this by taking another route?
Can't you just deal with it?
Aren't you judging the driver?
...
Those are all questions and viewpoints that have cropped up in this discussion.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm a pedestrian, and am pretty fit despite my smoking - but the amount of crap which is pouring out of the back of inconsiderate drivers' cars and down my lungs is outrageous..... and it doesn't even give me a hit! There are people driving 1 mile up the road to the cash machines outside the supermarket, parking their car right next to the things, when there is a car park 15 metres walk away, leaving the engine running with petrol (gasoline) fumes pumping out over everybody else in the queue, while their fat wife waddles up to withdraw £50 to spend on the national lottery!! I dread to think what level of passive petrol-fume smoking is going on across the world right now, a damn sight more than passive tobacco smoking, that's for sure.
...
This is a great parallel example to the discussion going on...
Is it the driver's right to do this?
Is it being considerate or courteous to others?
Can't you avoid this by taking another route?
Can't you just deal with it?
Aren't you judging the driver?
...
Those are all questions and viewpoints that have cropped up in this discussion.
is there an alternative to driving?
is there an alternative to driving a pollutant spewing car?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
is there an alternative to driving?
is there an alternative to driving a pollutant spewing car?
...
is there an alternative to driving?
A: Walking, Cycling, Public Transportaion. But, not for smoking.... except several smokers can smoke one cigarette... I guess that's the smoker's public transportation.
is there an alternative to driving a pollutant spewing car?
A: Feet, Bicycle, Skateboard, Hybird Car, Electric Car. I guess the alternative for smokers would be smokless tobacco such as chewing tobacco or snuff. But, then... we might be having this discussion about all of that spit everywhere.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
taking the toddlermonster to daycare this morning i observed 6 smokers. at my bus stop, 4 of them were strung out along the bus stop area.. maybe 9 metres in length. 4 under the cover trying to stay out of the rain.. as was i. 2 of them, a young school aged couple finished their smokes, threw the butt out into the rain and before lighting up their next smoke, the guy spat on the ground. and all i could think of was TAs post about disgusting germ ridden liquid cooties. another of the smokers crushed his butt underfoot. the 6th smoker, who got on the bus during the journey, also crushed his butt underfoot before getting on the bus.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I'm a pedestrian, and am pretty fit despite my smoking - but the amount of crap which is pouring out of the back of inconsiderate drivers' cars and down my lungs is outrageous..... and it doesn't even give me a hit! There are people driving 1 mile up the road to the cash machines outside the supermarket, parking their car right next to the things, when there is a car park 15 metres walk away, leaving the engine running with petrol (gasoline) fumes pumping out over everybody else in the queue, while their fat wife waddles up to withdraw £50 to spend on the national lottery!! I dread to think what level of passive petrol-fume smoking is going on across the world right now, a damn sight more than passive tobacco smoking, that's for sure.
Cancel my subscription to the Ressurection
Send my credentials to the house of detention
This is the smoking-related issue we should really be worrying about. I would like to see a bit more money and attention from 'health promotion' (and global citizens) put into this subject, and a little less money and attention put on tobacco. Problem is, these 'consumers' are probably either too naive, don't care, or too stoned do anything about it!!
Children are being trafficked into the UK to work in so-called 'cannabis factories' according to police.
The factories grow cannabis on an industrial scale.
They are typically located in private houses, but sometimes in agricultural and commercial properties.
A study for the Association of Chief Police Officers has found children are being used to tend crops, to illegally divert electricity for the factories, and to break into rival sites.
Even if the children are found they rarely talk about what has happened to them and often run away from local authority care.
Growing scale
The report into the commercial cultivation of cannabis shows how the number of factories discovered by the police has grown massively in recent years.
Between 2004 and 2007 police discovered an average of 800 factories a year.
In 2007/08 that rose to just over 3,000, and by 2009/10 it ballooned to almost 7,000.
ACPO says that rise is being driven by a number of factors. Commander Allan Gibson is the Association's lead on tackling cannabis production.
"The police response is now stronger and more effective through better co-ordination and intelligence sharing between forces and other agencies and more covert operations against the operators.
The level of publicity around cannabis since its reclassification in 2008 has meant that more members of the community are now reporting any unusual signs of habitation in buildings and houses which is leading to more detections."
Criminals have traditionally used residential homes for the factories, blacking out windows and installing high intensity lighting and a watering system to propagate the plants.
The report explains how illegal Chinese and Vietnamese immigrants are trafficked into the country and then put to work as 'gardeners' in the factories.
They can pay up to £10,000 per person to be smuggled into the UK and many then have to pay off their debts by tending to the cannabis plants.
They are often left instructions in their own language telling them how and when to feed the plants.
They are rarely, if ever, allowed to leave the property until the crop is ready to be harvested, with food and other necessities being brought to them.
Smuggled children
The report says children have been trafficked into the UK to work in factories, to divert electricity and to raid rival cannabis farms.
Even if they are found by the authorities getting their co-operation has proved extremely difficult.
"Children identified as victims of trafficking appear extremely wary of authorities and communicate little about their experiences in exploitation or about their captors.
"This may be because they are fearful for family members, as many will have unpaid debts, perhaps explaining their reasons for not disclosing information and going missing from care."
As well as growing cannabis the intelligence suggests the criminals who grow cannabis are involved in a range of criminal activity.
That includes producing and distributing most types and classes of drugs, counterfeit currency, fake DVDs, money laundering, prostitution, forgery and what they call 'bad on bad' crimes such as extortion, blackmail, kidnap, robbery and assault.
Comments
Cosmo, great analogy (especially for those of us who feel the effects of smoking that compromise our health and are unable to escape it)
But we must be careful to voice our opinions against the artist, we might be considered close-minded and selfish in some circles.
Also, in regards to Tremors topic of unhealthy foods, I was interested to see how a local regulation here in FL would do in our schools. They are limiting and/or banning certain sodas and unhealty drinks. They are even going as far as considering taking chocolate milk out of schools. I'm not sure how I feel about all this, but I know I drank a shitload of soda as a kid and it took me awhile to stop drinking it, but if it wasnt all over the place, I might not have drank so much of it. They seem to be trying very hard to get kids to eat healthier around the schools in my state.
Yes... I agree about the tolerance part. And it works both ways.
Smokers may be restricted to a portion of a restaurant, for example... but does the smoke, itself, recognize and respect these boundaries? No. The smoke will go where ever smoke tends to go and it is out of control of both smoker and non-smoker. But, ultimately... who is responsible for the smoke?
And yes... if a non-smoker walks into a designated smoking area or a cigar bar and complains about the smoke... they are the one with the problem. But, we are not addressing these anomallies. We are talking about public areas.
The smoking ban at the beaches in not so much the issue of the smoke... it is because of all of the cigarette butts that are left behind. For some reason, cigarette butts don't seem to be litter. Almost religiously, someone may gather up all of their paper and food trash and put it in the garbage... put plastic bottles and aluminum cans in the recycle bin... but, for some reason... flick their cigarette butts to the ground. Why is that?
If the smokers really did have compassion and love for others, they would refrain from smoking in areas where the smoke that is out of their control does not affect non-smokers. I don't think all of the judgement and lack of compassion is coming from only the non-smoker's side of the table. It seems to me that it is more of a matter of consideration, than judgement or compassion.
...
Again... this is coming from a person that smokes. If I'm at a bar and feel like firing up... I go to the designated area an have a smoke with the smokers. In California, those areas are outside.
Hail, Hail!!!
But I also think that now this scenario is completely viable, in Britain at least - this has become a 'Crusade' which is making the lives of anyone who does smoke, even on their own, more and more intolerable.
I'm a pedestrian, and am pretty fit despite my smoking - but the amount of crap which is pouring out of the back of inconsiderate drivers' cars and down my lungs is outrageous..... and it doesn't even give me a hit! There are people driving 1 mile up the road to the cash machines outside the supermarket, parking their car right next to the things, when there is a car park 15 metres walk away, leaving the engine running with petrol (gasoline) fumes pumping out over everybody else in the queue, while their fat wife waddles up to withdraw £50 to spend on the national lottery!! I dread to think what level of passive petrol-fume smoking is going on across the world right now, a damn sight more than passive tobacco smoking, that's for sure.
Send my credentials to the house of detention
This is a great parallel example to the discussion going on...
Is it the driver's right to do this?
Is it being considerate or courteous to others?
Can't you avoid this by taking another route?
Can't you just deal with it?
Aren't you judging the driver?
...
Those are all questions and viewpoints that have cropped up in this discussion.
Hail, Hail!!!
is there an alternative to driving?
is there an alternative to driving a pollutant spewing car?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
is there an alternative to driving?
A: Walking, Cycling, Public Transportaion. But, not for smoking.... except several smokers can smoke one cigarette... I guess that's the smoker's public transportation.
is there an alternative to driving a pollutant spewing car?
A: Feet, Bicycle, Skateboard, Hybird Car, Electric Car. I guess the alternative for smokers would be smokless tobacco such as chewing tobacco or snuff. But, then... we might be having this discussion about all of that spit everywhere.
Hail, Hail!!!
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Send my credentials to the house of detention
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Trafficked children working in UK 'cannabis farms'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10998421
By Rowan Bridge Reporter, BBC Radio 5
17 August 2010
Children are being trafficked into the UK to work in so-called 'cannabis factories' according to police.
The factories grow cannabis on an industrial scale.
They are typically located in private houses, but sometimes in agricultural and commercial properties.
A study for the Association of Chief Police Officers has found children are being used to tend crops, to illegally divert electricity for the factories, and to break into rival sites.
Even if the children are found they rarely talk about what has happened to them and often run away from local authority care.
Growing scale
The report into the commercial cultivation of cannabis shows how the number of factories discovered by the police has grown massively in recent years.
Between 2004 and 2007 police discovered an average of 800 factories a year.
In 2007/08 that rose to just over 3,000, and by 2009/10 it ballooned to almost 7,000.
ACPO says that rise is being driven by a number of factors. Commander Allan Gibson is the Association's lead on tackling cannabis production.
"The police response is now stronger and more effective through better co-ordination and intelligence sharing between forces and other agencies and more covert operations against the operators.
The level of publicity around cannabis since its reclassification in 2008 has meant that more members of the community are now reporting any unusual signs of habitation in buildings and houses which is leading to more detections."
Criminals have traditionally used residential homes for the factories, blacking out windows and installing high intensity lighting and a watering system to propagate the plants.
The report explains how illegal Chinese and Vietnamese immigrants are trafficked into the country and then put to work as 'gardeners' in the factories.
They can pay up to £10,000 per person to be smuggled into the UK and many then have to pay off their debts by tending to the cannabis plants.
They are often left instructions in their own language telling them how and when to feed the plants.
They are rarely, if ever, allowed to leave the property until the crop is ready to be harvested, with food and other necessities being brought to them.
Smuggled children
The report says children have been trafficked into the UK to work in factories, to divert electricity and to raid rival cannabis farms.
Even if they are found by the authorities getting their co-operation has proved extremely difficult.
"Children identified as victims of trafficking appear extremely wary of authorities and communicate little about their experiences in exploitation or about their captors.
"This may be because they are fearful for family members, as many will have unpaid debts, perhaps explaining their reasons for not disclosing information and going missing from care."
As well as growing cannabis the intelligence suggests the criminals who grow cannabis are involved in a range of criminal activity.
That includes producing and distributing most types and classes of drugs, counterfeit currency, fake DVDs, money laundering, prostitution, forgery and what they call 'bad on bad' crimes such as extortion, blackmail, kidnap, robbery and assault.
_______________________________________________________________
Nice bunch of people to do business with eh?
Send my credentials to the house of detention