gross as that is it doesnt really inconvenience anyone does it?
You know, I once heard that they started making people wear shoes in public places in part because people were picking up illnesses from dirty floors that people spit on. I don't know if that's true. Maybe this is something that Pandora and her extra years of wisdom can shed some light on.
what's with the making fun of Pandoras age? i doubt that's necessary. you don't have to have ''extra years of wisdom" to know that spitting can spread germs. you're in the medical profession scb, surely you know this already. why do you think we are taught from a young age to put our hands over our mouth when we cough?
two things everyone should know..
1. spitting can spread infectious disease. viruses and germs that may be in sputum can live on after you've spat or coughed them out for 24 hours or more.
2. never, never, never spit into the wind if it's blowing your way because there's a fair chance it's going to come back and hit you in the face. not the greatest feeling.
ha ha ha we used milk cartons in high school, I don't chew anymore but it never bothered me,out in lakeside a lot of people chewed.....does seem kinda gross now though that I think about it.
Godfather.
I knew someone whos baseball coach MADE them chew just because it made them look "more tough" and was the thing to do for baseball players I guess. So stupid...
At least smoke dissipates somewhat and clears... spitting has all those gross germs that just festerrr...ewww...
yea I hear ya !! .......festerr that a gross word in its self
1. spitting can spread infectious disease. viruses and germs that may be in sputum can live on after you've spat or coughed them out for 24 hours or more.
LOL - I won't pretend this is the most pleasant sentence I've come across in this forum!! But it is useful to keep in mind
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1. spitting can spread infectious disease. viruses and germs that may be in sputum can live on after you've spat or coughed them out for 24 hours or more.
LOL - I won't pretend this is the most pleasant sentence I've come across in this forum!! But it is useful to keep in mind
have to admit i dont even step on spit when im wearing shoes. of course that when i can see it.. after it dries up how would i know. anyways i thought the spitting into the wind thing was kinda funny and a little bit gross. but serves yourself right for spitting i say.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Laying in bed this morning, listening to the Hoot owls echo their calls before sunrise...
love is in the air perhaps? I remembered something I forgot to apply here in this forum.
Carrying my firstborn at 28, I began reading parenting books and 2 suggestions have stayed with me these 26 years in raising my children that I should have applied now.
What is good for the child is also good for the adult.
First, never use sarcasm when dealing with your child.
There is a trusting innocent mind hanging on every word and they will not understand the twist in words. The child will be confused and likely to use sarcasm when dealing with others as they mature.
Secondly and very important now, never attack the child only address the behavior...not, 'you are a naughty boy!' only 'what you did was naughty!'
I apologize that I did not address the behavior, 'you are acting small minded in this situation', 'your actions appear to be self centered' 'your suggestions are unreasonable on this subject' because the people here are not small minded or self centered.
This lesson I would imagine an important one in debate, something I do not enjoy. Debate for me is arguing and gives me tummy troubles. I avoid an argument at all costs. You can not change the opinion of the debaters only sway an audience, not something I am interested in doing. In everyday normal conversation I am on the shy side and prefer to listen to others, fearing a foot in my mouth outcome.
I came to this thread because the OP is a smoker and to support his viewpoint. I support the right of smokers to smoke in public areas and feel the bans in place sufficient and feel more restrictions would be treading on the smokers rights.
I wish I had worded my opinions in a way that would not offend those who do not agree with me.
I am sorry and I will try to apply these skills to any future issues and use my life lessons in only a positive way in the future as it is these lessons that form our opinions.
i use sarcasm with my children. and by that i mean my 11 year old and my 13 year old. and believe me they understand it. i dont assume to know the full intelligence of my children... i always speak to them as if they are as intelligent as i am. and ive never assumed because they are children they dont understand.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i use sarcasm with my children. and by that i mean my 11 year old and my 13 year old. and believe me they understand it. i dont assume to know the full intelligence of my children... i always speak to them as if they are as intelligent as i am. and ive never assumed because they are children they dont understand.
I was speaking of very small children as they are learning about relationships. My opinion, sarcasm is not a real good people skill in general, though.
Definition
In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes.
Sarcasm is “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.” [1] Some authorities sharply distinguish sarcasm from irony,[2] however others argue that sarcasm may or often does involve irony.[3]
I do agree about the intelligence of your child though. As a young mom I knew my children understood when others thought they didn't. And this is the fact, small children understand far more than they can express. I did not talk down to them or expect less because they were children. But sarcasm can destroy trust.
i use sarcasm with my children. and by that i mean my 11 year old and my 13 year old. and believe me they understand it. i dont assume to know the full intelligence of my children... i always speak to them as if they are as intelligent as i am. and ive never assumed because they are children they dont understand.
I was speaking of very small children as they are learning about relationships. My opinion, sarcasm is not a real good people skill in general, though.
Definition
In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes.
Sarcasm is “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.” [1] Some authorities sharply distinguish sarcasm from irony,[2] however others argue that sarcasm may or often does involve irony.[3]
I do agree about the intelligence of your child though. As a young mom I knew my children understood when others thought they didn't. And this is the fact, small children understand far more than they can express. I did not talk down to them or expect less because they were children. But sarcasm can destroy trust.
i can assure you my children trust me. and i never doubt that they do. i know my children. i know how intelligent they are. and i will not talk down to them due to ill perceived notions of childrens intelligence and what they can and can not handle. to me it is important that my children understand all the nuances of what is a difficult and sophisticated language. in using sarcasm i dont think i am mocking my children. if i did i wouldnt use it. as far as im concerned it is your responsibility to know and to understand your language. if you do not, then how is your lack my responsibility?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i use sarcasm with my children. and by that i mean my 11 year old and my 13 year old. and believe me they understand it. i dont assume to know the full intelligence of my children... i always speak to them as if they are as intelligent as i am. and ive never assumed because they are children they dont understand.
I was speaking of very small children as they are learning about relationships. My opinion, sarcasm is not a real good people skill in general, though.
Definition
In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes.
Sarcasm is “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.” [1] Some authorities sharply distinguish sarcasm from irony,[2] however others argue that sarcasm may or often does involve irony.[3]
I do agree about the intelligence of your child though. As a young mom I knew my children understood when others thought they didn't. And this is the fact, small children understand far more than they can express. I did not talk down to them or expect less because they were children. But sarcasm can destroy trust.
i can assure you my children trust me. and i never doubt that they do. i know my children. i know how intelligent they are. and i will not talk down to them due to ill perceived notions of childrens intelligence and what they can and can not handle. to me it is important that my children understand all the nuances of what is a difficult and sophisticated language. in using sarcasm i dont think i am mocking my children. if i did i wouldnt use it. as far as im concerned it is your responsibility to know and to understand your language. if you do not, then how is your lack my responsibility?
We agree on that then, never talk down to your children.
I remember my boy had an English teacher, perhaps even more than one, who was sarcastic with the students. Now I was never sarcastic with my kids but he sure got what the teacher was saying as did all the other students. The object of the sarcasm was embarrassed and ridiculed in a subtle way. As far as nuances of our language most are pretty clear and some can be insulting.
We agree on that then, never talk down to your children.
I remember my boy had an English teacher, perhaps even more than one, who was sarcastic with the students. Now I was never sarcastic with my kids but he sure got what the teacher was saying as did all the other students. The object of the sarcasm was embarrassed and ridiculed in a subtle way. As far as nuances of our language most are pretty clear and some can be insulting.
sarcasm for the use of ridicule and debasement is never acceptable.
and no nuance by definition is not clear. it is subtle. but yes they can be insulting.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Laying in bed this morning, listening to the Hoot owls echo their calls before sunrise...
love is in the air perhaps? I remembered something I forgot to apply here in this forum.
Carrying my firstborn at 28, I began reading parenting books and 2 suggestions have stayed with me these 26 years in raising my children that I should have applied now.
What is good for the child is also good for the adult.
First, never use sarcasm when dealing with your child.
There is a trusting innocent mind hanging on every word and they will not understand the twist in words. The child will be confused and likely to use sarcasm when dealing with others as they mature.
Secondly and very important now, never attack the child only address the behavior...not, 'you are a naughty boy!' only 'what you did was naughty!'
I apologize that I did not address the behavior, 'you are acting small minded in this situation', 'your actions appear to be self centered' 'your suggestions are unreasonable on this subject' because the people here are not small minded or self centered.
This lesson I would imagine an important one in debate, something I do not enjoy. Debate for me is arguing and gives me tummy troubles. I avoid an argument at all costs. You can not change the opinion of the debaters only sway an audience, not something I am interested in doing. In everyday normal conversation I am on the shy side and prefer to listen to others, fearing a foot in my mouth outcome.
I came to this thread because the OP is a smoker and to support his viewpoint. I support the right of smokers to smoke in public areas and feel the bans in place sufficient and feel more restrictions would be treading on the smokers rights.
I wish I had worded my opinions in a way that would not offend those who do not agree with me.
I am sorry and I will try to apply these skills to any future issues and use my life lessons in only a positive way in the future as it is these lessons that form our opinions.
Fair play to you for writing this Pandora. I too find the 'debate debate' bits difficult on here - it always seems to get out of hand one way or another, and leave me churned up afterwards; rarely fulfilled - unlike other types of discussions we have on this board which can be very constructive and uplifting. I think it's hard when people rip into each other's 'copy', since I think that is the start of getting personal - first thing they are insulting the copy next they are insulting you. It's a bit like having a debate with the tape recorder on. One of the best things about real life debates is you can say 'I didn't say that, or I didn't mean that, or I might have said it better like this...' and so we move onwards. If we pick apart each others' posts, this process of constructive debate is much more difficult to find I think. Anyway - it must work for some people!! I stay away from the moving train cos it always makes me feel lousy. Not that I don't have opinions, but rather that I can't seem to express them without getting myself or others into trouble!! I don't always have this problem in everyday life - promise!! I quite enjoy a good face to face debate.
So where were we? Oh, just been listening to PJ radio - got it through my speakers for a change. I like the way it has two buttons: 'STOP' and 'BUY!!!' hehehe. Anyone here mind if I light up a cigarette while I'm listening??
eek
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...
Went to my favorite mexican restaurant sitting at the bar enjoying
and a fella across from me had an empty plastic coke bottle.
He had chew in and kept spitting the brown fluid into the bottle. Nasty, it got filled up with brown gob.
Needless to say I lost my appetite but hit the drinks hard. Oh and you couldn't smoke in this bar of course but you could do that. Yuk. Such is life. Just got to deal I guess.
...
The difference is this... you are not taking in any of that waste into your body. Now, if his spit ended up in your mouth without you having a say in the matter...would you still just figure its something you just have to deal with and get over it?
Of course not. That is the difference between the smoke and the spit. The smoke does not just stay with the smokers and smokers cannot control the smoke... unlike the spit that can be contained in the Coke bottle. If smokers did NOT exhale, there would not be a problem. But the nature of smoking is exhaling so those who choose not to smoke have no control of the matter.
I believe you would take offense if his spit ended up in your body, right? So, why shouldn't others take offense if someone else's smoke ended up in theirs?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Is this the 'let's all gang up on Pandora thread' ? She's just written a heartfelt piece about not being the best debater in the world, which I found quite moving and sincere.... and she's getting it in the neck from three people at once. Give the woman a break! In fact everything I've read of hers sounds completely reasonable to me - it's a throwaway comment - the thing about how you can spit but not smoke - I'm not sure she was expecting to have to defend every word she says from some intense analysis. I think you have to look at the spirit in which something is said as well as the ideas or opinions it contains myself, and to know when to back off a bit.
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Is this the 'let's all gang up on Pandora thread' ? She's just written a heartfelt piece about not being the best debater in the world, which I found quite moving and sincere.... and she's getting it in the neck from three people at once. Give the woman a break! In fact everything I've read of hers sounds completely reasonable to me - it's a throwaway comment - the thing about how you can spit but not smoke - I'm not sure she was expecting to have to defend every word she says from some intense analysis. I think you have to look at the spirit in which something is said as well as the ideas or opinions it contains myself, and to know when to back off a bit.
+1, all of it! I know what it feels like to be ganged up on in a thread because you have an unpopular opinion. I hate to see everything she writes so dissected. It's not really fair.
Oh and the spit thing...you can smell the spit if you're next to or even remotely near a spitter. Unless you like that smell, it is pretty nasty. It does affect other people.
Pandi some of the people on this forum will diesect and rip apart every word you say just for the sake of argument if they feel their personal opinions or moral standards are threatened by someone with another view on any subject,some will say that they understand your view but in the same breath tell you why you are wrong, I guess it's the inherent need to dominate or conquer "the human element" and there in lays the reason we will most likely never see world peace but as long as we understand this human element in our selfs and others we can be one step ahead of the game .
Even kindness can be attacked on this forum by some people, this tells me that there are some people that may be living an unhappy life and need to share their pain with others "misery loves company" maybe they're lonely or maybe they're angry at the world for a wrong that was done to them. I think you are a kind and caring person and others on here believe that also so just smile and enjoy the entertainment here on the train.
I am going out to my garage now to have a cig...I hope my smoke doesn't go down the street into a non-smokers house.
...
Oh and the spit thing...you can smell the spit if you're next to or even remotely near a spitter. Unless you like that smell, it is pretty nasty. It does affect other people.
smelling spit?? thats just a disgusting thought. ewww.
so how do we all feel about nosepicking??
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
...
Oh and the spit thing...you can smell the spit if you're next to or even remotely near a spitter. Unless you like that smell, it is pretty nasty. It does affect other people.
smelling spit?? thats just a disgusting thought. ewww.
so how do we all feel about nosepicking??
Lol
I guess if it's done in the privacy of one's own home it's not a problem. So long as I don't have to get involved.... until they make it illegal, and then I'll probably get seduced.
Actually the most interesting parallel I've heard drawn with smoking was on a documentary about modern day 'vampires' - kind of Goths with a few additional 'issues'. There was quite a discussion about cutting oneself and self harming, and this young vampire said it was no different to smoking. I thought that was interesting. Although I'm quite glad that (today at least) smoking is still more socially acceptable than cutting yourself or your partner and devouring their blood.
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Is this the 'let's all gang up on Pandora thread' ? She's just written a heartfelt piece about not being the best debater in the world, which I found quite moving and sincere.... and she's getting it in the neck from three people at once. Give the woman a break! In fact everything I've read of hers sounds completely reasonable to me - it's a throwaway comment - the thing about how you can spit but not smoke - I'm not sure she was expecting to have to defend every word she says from some intense analysis. I think you have to look at the spirit in which something is said as well as the ideas or opinions it contains myself, and to know when to back off a bit.
...
No. It is a discussion about one topic... the issue is smoking, specifically, second-hand smoke.
There are two sides to the issue... the rights of the smoker versus the rights of people who do not smoke. It just happens that one person is arguing to points with many who are on the other side. It isn't a matter of ganging up in anyone, its a matter of putting out points that are in opposition. I don't see this debate getting out of hand.
It would be the same thing if I, for example, would take on the side defending George W. Bush's policies and stating he was the best thing that ever happened to the Middle East. There would be many opposing views expressed, right? Would people be 'ganging up' on me? No... they each would be expressing their individual opinions on the matter.
That being said, it becomes a matter of not wearing your heart out on your sleeve, if your remarks are off the cuff. Take it as discussion where not everyone feels the same way you do.
...
ADD: Have you ever read through some of the threads on abortion or religion out here? Compared to those, this thread rates on the pain factor scale as a first degree hamster bite.
Post edited by Cosmo on
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Here is an example, which I agree, is antecdotal, but remains within the realm of this discussion...
I live in a townhome complex... 79 units, 4 family homes per building.
A woman artist did work in her garage... she made those giganitc pieces you see usually see in banks. The medium used was resin, acid and other materials that emit an odor.
Her upstairs neignbor was a mother and her two sons. The kid's bedroom was above the garages. The fumes from the chemicals really affected her older son. He got headaches and bloody noses from it.
When she went to he artist neighbor to complain, she was told that the garage was her property and she could do whatever she wanted in there.
This dispute came to the asociation board.
The artist claimed that she was within her rights as a homeowner to do what she did in her own garage... it would be just as if she were a smoker, smoking in her own home.
The sick boy's mother argued that it was not the case because the fumes were not contained to the artist's property and encroached on her home, affecting the health of her son.
The board pointed to the CCand R's that all homeowners agreed to when they bought into the community. One of the rules being that you cannot run a commercial business from your home. This is to keep someome from running an auto repair shop from their garage.
The artist argued that people run businesses from their home offices, to which it was made clear that home offices do not interfere with the community, unless there is a lot of customer traffic. It was suggested that the artist seek a commercial building that would accomodate her work.
She said that it was her livelihood and her right to continue with her art and she could not afford the expense of a commercial facility. She said her neighbor and her kids had several choices:
A. Move the kids to another room (which wouldn't matter because the whole upstairs smelled like resin).
B. The upstairs neighbors could run fans to air out their home.
C. The mother and sons could sell their place and move to another home.
D. Her upstairs neighbors could just deal with it.
She also threatened a lawsuit if she were made to cease her livelihood by the board.
...
How would you decide?
...
Turns out... when the board talked to the city, the city fire department shut down the operation because of the storage and use of toxic chemicals in an inadequately ventilated facility. Homeowner Association rules would not allow the installation of a commercial grade ventilation system... just like it would not allow you to build an incinerator in your garage.
...
That solved this problem... but, what about the artist's point about smoking? That was a valid point, although it did not apply to her specific situation because acid and resin is not the same as cigarette smoke.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
EDIT: to me there's really no question here. Something someone is doing is affecting someone in a negative way, so that behaviour must stop. Case closed.
My wife and I lived in a second floor apartment before we were married. She worked out a lot back then (before kids!). our downstairs neighbours (a couple about 80 years old) complained about her "jumping", how it was causing their pictures to fall off the walls, etc (obvious bullshit, my wife is 5 feet and a buck o' five). But you know what, something we were doing was causing them discomfort. It sucked, but she had to stop. Or at least come to an agreed time she could do it.
It only makes sense that this is how society should work.
Post edited by Hugh Freaking Dillon on
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
EDIT: to me there's really no question here. Something someone is doing is affecting someone in a negative way, so that behaviour must stop. Case closed.
My wife and I lived in a second floor apartment before we were married. She worked out a lot back then (before kids!). our downstairs neighbours (a couple about 80 years old) complained about her "jumping", how it was causing their pictures to fall off the walls, etc (obvious bullshit, my wife is 5 feet and a buck o' five). But you know what, something we were doing was causing them discomfort. It sucked, but she had to stop. Or at least come to an agreed time she could do it.
It only makes sense that this is how society should work.
...
It is more about consideration towards others than your personal rights... right? I mean, your wife could have said screw you to your neighbors, but that would have just lead to a more uncomfortable situation. She would have been well within her rights... but, as you said, we live in a society.
...
P.S. That artist lady was a bitch. She went to war with the community after that and complained about everything... including the noise the kids made out in the swimming pool (like she didn't notice the pool in front of her house when she moved in), the sound of a car alarm in the neighborhood outside our complex and the crows in the trees that squawk in the morning. When we said, "There isn't much anyone can do about the crows... we tell them to be quiet, but they don't listen". So, she suggested we cut down all of the trees.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
That's good! Maybe I'm just used to going to the parts of the forum where people try and be kind to one another too. My point was partly about timing. Personally I think I would be quite upset if I was having to defend and justify myself to multiple people who were being hostile towards me all at at the same time - especially if I had just posted something heartfelt which suggested I had feelings, and had apologised for the 'style' of my previous posts. The crux of Pandora's last post was that she had been thinking about what she had said, and recognised that she had been wording things in a way which 'attacked the person', and not the 'behaviour', which she thought was something she could learn from in debates in the future. She also said that she wasn't a born debater, and that this style of debate made her feel sick. I thought all of this was very insightful, well expressed and shows her to be a thoughtful and reflective person.
Maybe more importantly though, for those who prioritise intellectual argument above caring whether another board member is feeling upset, or whether they are really being fair to her - every single thing I have read of Pandora's, being quoted in the last couple of pages, appears eminently reasonable to me, because what she is trying to do is to introduce a bit more perspective with points about 'tolerance' into the argument - broadly saying that smokers could be cut a bit more slack, and she has been expressing this in a style and tone which is quite light, reasonable and in an everyday conversational style of writing. I think if people subject conversational pieces of writing to the standards of the university debating society, then people ARE going to get upset. If people take no account of the tone of her posts then it suggests to me, as was suggested by the godfather above, that some people just want to come here to get into an intellectual conflict. An intellectual conflict isn't the only form of debating I know of - there are conversations as well.
Now I think if I joined a discussion about abortion I would expect to be getting into some intellectual conflicts, and prepare myself for that mode, and expect to receive a lot of flak, and be very very careful about what I posted. Likewise joining a discussion in the moving train about George Bush's policy in Iraq. I would be expecting to have a very earnest and serious discussion. But somebody having a rant about not being able to have a bloody cigarette!?? This is what I mean about the perspective issue with this subject. (by the way did this OPost start in this section or was it moved here?)
'Should smoking be made illegal?' - this is a debate topic I could relate to, and it seems that many here think the answer should be 'yes' - fair enough then. That would be how I would focus my discussion - not on the every phrase of one individual board member.
Now, about that ale and cigarette you promised us!!
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No. It is a discussion about one topic... the issue is smoking, specifically, second-hand smoke.
There are two sides to the issue... the rights of the smoker versus the rights of people who do not smoke. It just happens that one person is arguing to points with many who are on the other side. It isn't a matter of ganging up in anyone, its a matter of putting out points that are in opposition. I don't see this debate getting out of hand.
It would be the same thing if I, for example, would take on the side defending George W. Bush's policies and stating he was the best thing that ever happened to the Middle East. There would be many opposing views expressed, right? Would people be 'ganging up' on me? No... they each would be expressing their individual opinions on the matter.
That being said, it becomes a matter of not wearing your heart out on your sleeve, if your remarks are off the cuff. Take it as discussion where not everyone feels the same way you do.
...
ADD: Have you ever read through some of the threads on abortion or religion out here? Compared to those, this thread rates on the pain factor scale as a first degree hamster bite.
I agree with everything you said, including the stuff about G-dub. But it really can feel like people are ganging up on your when you opinion doesn't match the majorities (or coincidentally EV's when it's politics). That's the majority of this board, not the majority in general.
...
Went to my favorite mexican restaurant sitting at the bar enjoying
and a fella across from me had an empty plastic coke bottle.
He had chew in and kept spitting the brown fluid into the bottle. Nasty, it got filled up with brown gob.
Needless to say I lost my appetite but hit the drinks hard. Oh and you couldn't smoke in this bar of course but you could do that. Yuk. Such is life. Just got to deal I guess.
...
The difference is this... you are not taking in any of that waste into your body. Now, if his spit ended up in your mouth without you having a say in the matter...would you still just figure its something you just have to deal with and get over it?
Of course not. That is the difference between the smoke and the spit. The smoke does not just stay with the smokers and smokers cannot control the smoke... unlike the spit that can be contained in the Coke bottle. If smokers did NOT exhale, there would not be a problem. But the nature of smoking is exhaling so those who choose not to smoke have no control of the matter.
I believe you would take offense if his spit ended up in your body, right? So, why shouldn't others take offense if someone else's smoke ended up in theirs?
I think the difference is there are smoking bans in place and areas where smokers can smoke as there should be.
Nonsmokers can avoid the areas and enjoy restaurants, bars, workplace without smoke because it is banned, as in this restaurant.
I thought of this experience cause they were discussing leaving gum about, not to compare the two habits.
My only point was more the dealing with it. In my opinion we must sometimes just deal with it, I am old school, very old school I except the imperfectness of this world and the people who live in it, not really looking to change it except I would hope for less judgment of others, more compassion and love in our world.
:wave: Hey friends your words of encouragement touch my heart and warm my soul. My words aren't enough to express how much I appreciate your understanding and support and coming to my defense well, that brought some tears this morning. Life is so very good when you can feel like this. It is amazing what we can do for each other, that the greatest gift. Thank you!
You are all a blessing to me
Comments
two things everyone should know..
1. spitting can spread infectious disease. viruses and germs that may be in sputum can live on after you've spat or coughed them out for 24 hours or more.
2. never, never, never spit into the wind if it's blowing your way because there's a fair chance it's going to come back and hit you in the face. not the greatest feeling.
Godfather.
LOL - I won't pretend this is the most pleasant sentence I've come across in this forum!! But it is useful to keep in mind
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have to admit i dont even step on spit when im wearing shoes. of course that when i can see it.. after it dries up how would i know. anyways i thought the spitting into the wind thing was kinda funny and a little bit gross. but serves yourself right for spitting i say.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
love is in the air perhaps? I remembered something I forgot to apply here in this forum.
Carrying my firstborn at 28, I began reading parenting books and 2 suggestions have stayed with me these 26 years in raising my children that I should have applied now.
What is good for the child is also good for the adult.
First, never use sarcasm when dealing with your child.
There is a trusting innocent mind hanging on every word and they will not understand the twist in words. The child will be confused and likely to use sarcasm when dealing with others as they mature.
Secondly and very important now, never attack the child only address the behavior...not, 'you are a naughty boy!' only 'what you did was naughty!'
I apologize that I did not address the behavior, 'you are acting small minded in this situation', 'your actions appear to be self centered' 'your suggestions are unreasonable on this subject' because the people here are not small minded or self centered.
This lesson I would imagine an important one in debate, something I do not enjoy. Debate for me is arguing and gives me tummy troubles. I avoid an argument at all costs. You can not change the opinion of the debaters only sway an audience, not something I am interested in doing. In everyday normal conversation I am on the shy side and prefer to listen to others, fearing a foot in my mouth outcome.
I came to this thread because the OP is a smoker and to support his viewpoint. I support the right of smokers to smoke in public areas and feel the bans in place sufficient and feel more restrictions would be treading on the smokers rights.
I wish I had worded my opinions in a way that would not offend those who do not agree with me.
I am sorry and I will try to apply these skills to any future issues and use my life lessons in only a positive way in the future as it is these lessons that form our opinions.
i use sarcasm with my children. and by that i mean my 11 year old and my 13 year old. and believe me they understand it. i dont assume to know the full intelligence of my children... i always speak to them as if they are as intelligent as i am. and ive never assumed because they are children they dont understand.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Definition
In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes.
Sarcasm is “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.” [1] Some authorities sharply distinguish sarcasm from irony,[2] however others argue that sarcasm may or often does involve irony.[3]
I do agree about the intelligence of your child though. As a young mom I knew my children understood when others thought they didn't. And this is the fact, small children understand far more than they can express. I did not talk down to them or expect less because they were children. But sarcasm can destroy trust.
i can assure you my children trust me. and i never doubt that they do. i know my children. i know how intelligent they are. and i will not talk down to them due to ill perceived notions of childrens intelligence and what they can and can not handle. to me it is important that my children understand all the nuances of what is a difficult and sophisticated language. in using sarcasm i dont think i am mocking my children. if i did i wouldnt use it. as far as im concerned it is your responsibility to know and to understand your language. if you do not, then how is your lack my responsibility?
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hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I remember my boy had an English teacher, perhaps even more than one, who was sarcastic with the students. Now I was never sarcastic with my kids but he sure got what the teacher was saying as did all the other students. The object of the sarcasm was embarrassed and ridiculed in a subtle way. As far as nuances of our language most are pretty clear and some can be insulting.
sarcasm for the use of ridicule and debasement is never acceptable.
and no nuance by definition is not clear. it is subtle. but yes they can be insulting.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Fair play to you for writing this Pandora. I too find the 'debate debate' bits difficult on here - it always seems to get out of hand one way or another, and leave me churned up afterwards; rarely fulfilled - unlike other types of discussions we have on this board which can be very constructive and uplifting. I think it's hard when people rip into each other's 'copy', since I think that is the start of getting personal - first thing they are insulting the copy next they are insulting you. It's a bit like having a debate with the tape recorder on. One of the best things about real life debates is you can say 'I didn't say that, or I didn't mean that, or I might have said it better like this...' and so we move onwards. If we pick apart each others' posts, this process of constructive debate is much more difficult to find I think. Anyway - it must work for some people!! I stay away from the moving train cos it always makes me feel lousy. Not that I don't have opinions, but rather that I can't seem to express them without getting myself or others into trouble!! I don't always have this problem in everyday life - promise!! I quite enjoy a good face to face debate.
So where were we? Oh, just been listening to PJ radio - got it through my speakers for a change. I like the way it has two buttons: 'STOP' and 'BUY!!!' hehehe. Anyone here mind if I light up a cigarette while I'm listening??
Send my credentials to the house of detention
The difference is this... you are not taking in any of that waste into your body. Now, if his spit ended up in your mouth without you having a say in the matter...would you still just figure its something you just have to deal with and get over it?
Of course not. That is the difference between the smoke and the spit. The smoke does not just stay with the smokers and smokers cannot control the smoke... unlike the spit that can be contained in the Coke bottle. If smokers did NOT exhale, there would not be a problem. But the nature of smoking is exhaling so those who choose not to smoke have no control of the matter.
I believe you would take offense if his spit ended up in your body, right? So, why shouldn't others take offense if someone else's smoke ended up in theirs?
Hail, Hail!!!
Send my credentials to the house of detention
Oh and the spit thing...you can smell the spit if you're next to or even remotely near a spitter. Unless you like that smell, it is pretty nasty. It does affect other people.
Even kindness can be attacked on this forum by some people, this tells me that there are some people that may be living an unhappy life and need to share their pain with others "misery loves company" maybe they're lonely or maybe they're angry at the world for a wrong that was done to them. I think you are a kind and caring person and others on here believe that also so just smile and enjoy the entertainment here on the train.
I am going out to my garage now to have a cig...I hope my smoke doesn't go down the street into a non-smokers house.
Godfather.
smelling spit?? thats just a disgusting thought. ewww.
so how do we all feel about nosepicking??
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Lol
I guess if it's done in the privacy of one's own home it's not a problem. So long as I don't have to get involved.... until they make it illegal, and then I'll probably get seduced.
Actually the most interesting parallel I've heard drawn with smoking was on a documentary about modern day 'vampires' - kind of Goths with a few additional 'issues'. There was quite a discussion about cutting oneself and self harming, and this young vampire said it was no different to smoking. I thought that was interesting. Although I'm quite glad that (today at least) smoking is still more socially acceptable than cutting yourself or your partner and devouring their blood.
Send my credentials to the house of detention
maybe you frickin suck :evil:
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
maybe the title should be "everybody inhales"
how are things going for you brother ?
Godfather.
we all do not suck.
im gettin by, thank you friend.
been drug free for four days now.
well, that isn't entirely true... i do eat pharmaceuticals to relieve pain.
thread integrity... cigarettes are terrible
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
No. It is a discussion about one topic... the issue is smoking, specifically, second-hand smoke.
There are two sides to the issue... the rights of the smoker versus the rights of people who do not smoke. It just happens that one person is arguing to points with many who are on the other side. It isn't a matter of ganging up in anyone, its a matter of putting out points that are in opposition. I don't see this debate getting out of hand.
It would be the same thing if I, for example, would take on the side defending George W. Bush's policies and stating he was the best thing that ever happened to the Middle East. There would be many opposing views expressed, right? Would people be 'ganging up' on me? No... they each would be expressing their individual opinions on the matter.
That being said, it becomes a matter of not wearing your heart out on your sleeve, if your remarks are off the cuff. Take it as discussion where not everyone feels the same way you do.
...
ADD: Have you ever read through some of the threads on abortion or religion out here? Compared to those, this thread rates on the pain factor scale as a first degree hamster bite.
Hail, Hail!!!
i am her bodyguard and will slay anyone who makes her sad.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
you're the man Chad.
Godfather.
I live in a townhome complex... 79 units, 4 family homes per building.
A woman artist did work in her garage... she made those giganitc pieces you see usually see in banks. The medium used was resin, acid and other materials that emit an odor.
Her upstairs neignbor was a mother and her two sons. The kid's bedroom was above the garages. The fumes from the chemicals really affected her older son. He got headaches and bloody noses from it.
When she went to he artist neighbor to complain, she was told that the garage was her property and she could do whatever she wanted in there.
This dispute came to the asociation board.
The artist claimed that she was within her rights as a homeowner to do what she did in her own garage... it would be just as if she were a smoker, smoking in her own home.
The sick boy's mother argued that it was not the case because the fumes were not contained to the artist's property and encroached on her home, affecting the health of her son.
The board pointed to the CCand R's that all homeowners agreed to when they bought into the community. One of the rules being that you cannot run a commercial business from your home. This is to keep someome from running an auto repair shop from their garage.
The artist argued that people run businesses from their home offices, to which it was made clear that home offices do not interfere with the community, unless there is a lot of customer traffic. It was suggested that the artist seek a commercial building that would accomodate her work.
She said that it was her livelihood and her right to continue with her art and she could not afford the expense of a commercial facility. She said her neighbor and her kids had several choices:
A. Move the kids to another room (which wouldn't matter because the whole upstairs smelled like resin).
B. The upstairs neighbors could run fans to air out their home.
C. The mother and sons could sell their place and move to another home.
D. Her upstairs neighbors could just deal with it.
She also threatened a lawsuit if she were made to cease her livelihood by the board.
...
How would you decide?
...
Turns out... when the board talked to the city, the city fire department shut down the operation because of the storage and use of toxic chemicals in an inadequately ventilated facility. Homeowner Association rules would not allow the installation of a commercial grade ventilation system... just like it would not allow you to build an incinerator in your garage.
...
That solved this problem... but, what about the artist's point about smoking? That was a valid point, although it did not apply to her specific situation because acid and resin is not the same as cigarette smoke.
Hail, Hail!!!
against the agitator, the artist.
EDIT: to me there's really no question here. Something someone is doing is affecting someone in a negative way, so that behaviour must stop. Case closed.
My wife and I lived in a second floor apartment before we were married. She worked out a lot back then (before kids!). our downstairs neighbours (a couple about 80 years old) complained about her "jumping", how it was causing their pictures to fall off the walls, etc (obvious bullshit, my wife is 5 feet and a buck o' five). But you know what, something we were doing was causing them discomfort. It sucked, but she had to stop. Or at least come to an agreed time she could do it.
It only makes sense that this is how society should work.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
It is more about consideration towards others than your personal rights... right? I mean, your wife could have said screw you to your neighbors, but that would have just lead to a more uncomfortable situation. She would have been well within her rights... but, as you said, we live in a society.
...
P.S. That artist lady was a bitch. She went to war with the community after that and complained about everything... including the noise the kids made out in the swimming pool (like she didn't notice the pool in front of her house when she moved in), the sound of a car alarm in the neighborhood outside our complex and the crows in the trees that squawk in the morning. When we said, "There isn't much anyone can do about the crows... we tell them to be quiet, but they don't listen". So, she suggested we cut down all of the trees.
Hail, Hail!!!
That's good! Maybe I'm just used to going to the parts of the forum where people try and be kind to one another too. My point was partly about timing. Personally I think I would be quite upset if I was having to defend and justify myself to multiple people who were being hostile towards me all at at the same time - especially if I had just posted something heartfelt which suggested I had feelings, and had apologised for the 'style' of my previous posts. The crux of Pandora's last post was that she had been thinking about what she had said, and recognised that she had been wording things in a way which 'attacked the person', and not the 'behaviour', which she thought was something she could learn from in debates in the future. She also said that she wasn't a born debater, and that this style of debate made her feel sick. I thought all of this was very insightful, well expressed and shows her to be a thoughtful and reflective person.
Maybe more importantly though, for those who prioritise intellectual argument above caring whether another board member is feeling upset, or whether they are really being fair to her - every single thing I have read of Pandora's, being quoted in the last couple of pages, appears eminently reasonable to me, because what she is trying to do is to introduce a bit more perspective with points about 'tolerance' into the argument - broadly saying that smokers could be cut a bit more slack, and she has been expressing this in a style and tone which is quite light, reasonable and in an everyday conversational style of writing. I think if people subject conversational pieces of writing to the standards of the university debating society, then people ARE going to get upset. If people take no account of the tone of her posts then it suggests to me, as was suggested by the godfather above, that some people just want to come here to get into an intellectual conflict. An intellectual conflict isn't the only form of debating I know of - there are conversations as well.
Now I think if I joined a discussion about abortion I would expect to be getting into some intellectual conflicts, and prepare myself for that mode, and expect to receive a lot of flak, and be very very careful about what I posted. Likewise joining a discussion in the moving train about George Bush's policy in Iraq. I would be expecting to have a very earnest and serious discussion. But somebody having a rant about not being able to have a bloody cigarette!?? This is what I mean about the perspective issue with this subject. (by the way did this OPost start in this section or was it moved here?)
'Should smoking be made illegal?' - this is a debate topic I could relate to, and it seems that many here think the answer should be 'yes' - fair enough then. That would be how I would focus my discussion - not on the every phrase of one individual board member.
Now, about that ale and cigarette you promised us!!
Send my credentials to the house of detention
I agree with everything you said, including the stuff about G-dub.
Nonsmokers can avoid the areas and enjoy restaurants, bars, workplace without smoke because it is banned, as in this restaurant.
I thought of this experience cause they were discussing leaving gum about, not to compare the two habits.
My only point was more the dealing with it. In my opinion we must sometimes just deal with it, I am old school, very old school
:wave: Hey friends your words of encouragement touch my heart and warm my soul. My words aren't enough to express how much I appreciate your understanding and support and coming to my defense well, that brought some tears this morning. Life is so very good when you can feel like this. It is amazing what we can do for each other, that the greatest gift. Thank you!
You are all a blessing to me