People's feelings aren't relevant to biology in this regard. But to say that a foetus isn't a baby is not something I will ever agree to. And it's ok that people have differing opinions on the matter. If we were all the same the world would be a pretty boring place I'd have to say. I can only give my opinion, and it comes from having 4 children (as well as an ectopic pregnancy).....They were real to me from the second I knew I was pregnant. But I'm not narrow minded enough to not see the other side of the coin. I can see the point people make when they don't want a child and they discover they are pregnant - so they abort. I just personally believe in this day and age when the majority of people living in Western society have relatively cheap and easy access to all sorts of birth control methods, that abortion simply for that sake shouldn't be considered an option. For me, the issue is too filled with emotion to ever be able to say that a baby inside the womb isn't a baby, because it is. Yes, you can be pedantic and say that it only becomes a baby once it can sustain life - but then what would you say to the people that have buried a baby born at 20 weeks for example? Would you say that the baby that they got to hold for half an hour (even though it was not breathing), the baby that looked in every respect like a tiny version of a baby born at 36 weeks, was NOT a baby? That they shouldn't grieve because it wasn't really a baby? Whatever people believe - the fact of the matter is, is that barring any medical/health issues - that embryo/foetus/baby WILL turn out to be a human being in the flesh somewhere between 8 and 10 months after conception...sometimes earlier.
Would you tell the parents of a new born child who is having a heel prick done, that their baby isn't feeling pain because pain can only be a learned response? From my own experience this is not true. Every one of my children cried when given a needle or a heel prick or anything like that - and at 5 minutes old, there is no way they had 'learned' that behaviour or emotion. It's real - it exists. Does it exist in the womb? I don't know and don't pretend to, but I have a hard time believing that a baby learns that pain exists in the space of time it takes them to be born. That they can't feel pain inside the womb, but they can outside? That just doesn't sound right to me. And this is something that for a long time at least - no one will ever really know. You can't exactly ask them before they are born if they feel pain, now can you?
At the end of the day - I fully support a woman's right to choose, and I would never judge her for it. I would just personally have a hard time making that decision, but perhaps that's because of my children? Perhaps it's just my genetic makeup. I honestly believe though, that access to medical services that allow abortion, is necessary to prevent endangering women's lives with unsafe procedures.
I respect everyone's emotions, religion, etc. about their own pregnancies. I have cried at the funeral of a baby who was miscarried at 39 weeks, the day after throwing her mother a big baby shower. I have helped friends through emotionally painful miscarriages. I have witnessed autopsies of stillborn babies, and the agony the parents felt in making the decision to autopsy or not. And I have helped many women through abortions of pregnancies that they considered babies, and even been to memorial services provided by the abortion clinic. But these are all about the emotions and perspectives of the woman carrying the pregnancy. I don't think anyone has a right to tell a woman she's killing her "baby" when that is not only not her perspective but also not the perspective of medical science or law.
I don't know what "abortion simply for that sake" is - but I don't think it's my right to tell a woman it shouldn't be an option. If you're suggesting that most decisions to have abortions are made just as another birth control option - like, "I don't want to take the pill, so I'll just have an abortion if I get pregnant" - I disagree.
Around the 9 week mark I believe is when an embryo becomes a foetus. A baby can sustain life outside the womb from late in the second trimester, although it is difficult, it can be done. And as for saying it's a baby - well to me it always was. Ask someone who has had a miscarriage at 11 weeks, or 15 weeks or even at 7 or 8 weeks, when they REALLY wanted a baby, whether that child was real to them, and they will say yes. So no, definitely not cut and dried, and completely emotional. To me - once it's heart starts beating at around the 6 -7 week mark, it's a baby. This is my personal opinion, and I understand there are reasons women choose to have an abortion, and I fully support that right. I'm just saying that I don't know if I could do that, unless their was a valid (in my opinion) reason, such as a medical one, or the pregnancy being the result of rape. Just my opinion, and others are certainly entitled to theirs.
I agree that many people - whether they wanted a baby or not - feel that embyros and fetuses are babies to them and I think their feelings are valid. But I don't think people's subjective feelings are relevant to biology. After all, if a woman's feelings could will an embryo or fetus into really being a baby, then a woman's feelings could also will an embryo or fetus into not being a baby - and I don't think either of us believe the latter is true.
I think Stardust has given valid points. Your refusal to acknowledge a fetus as a baby at some point during the 9 month pregnancy period is somewhat baffling to me. Don't take that as a personal attack, but I believe that you are so set on defending your beliefs that you are not considering some of the counter-points that are being presented on this thread.
Well I've already considered all the counterpoints made in this thread and if I was going to believe them I would have believed them already. I already said I can understand why people feel like their unborn are babies and that I respect that, so I'm not sure why you think I'm not considering what Stardust has to say. On an emotional level, I think of a fetus and even an embryo as a baby too - I just don't think individual emotions are relevant to medicine. I believe I've even said that the line gets blurrier at the end of a pregnancy. And I've asked at what point everyone else thinks a fetus becomes a baby, but hardly anyone has responded - they just reply by saying I'm wrong. Stardust responded by saying she thinks it's when the heart starts beating and I didn't argue with her about that at all. What else do you want me to say? :? Personally, as I've said, the issue of whether or not it's a baby isn't really relevant to me when it comes to abortion - except in the comparison between abortion and the death penalty.
Well then I'll consider it a productive thread! I'll caution you to be careful where you do your research though. Most of the stuff you'll probably find on the internet is total bullshit. (And the reason I feel compelled to tell you this is because you seemed to believe the internet bullshit that was posted about the "common" forms of abortion.)
I'm sure all of your internet sources are the only true, non-bs ones huh?
And yes, I'm just kidding.
You should know better than that by now. But your joke will probably encourage people to be misinformed. Good job.
Actually I meant a pregnancy that has progressed for 3 months. So, 6 months premature. They can live.
Please provide some evidence that this is possible and statistics indicating what the chances are.
Google it. I have read very rare instances. Obviosly 3 months sounds ridiculous. But it definitely happens at 5-6 months. But this has nothing to do with how prevalent it is. The point is, that a typical 9 month pregnancy is a lousy way of defining a person/baby/will to live/consiousness.This is about the fact that if ANY premature baby can survive, can it be considerd a person?
it is a living organism. I am the kind of person that doesnt kill bugs in my house. I catch them and release them outside. I can't imagine killing a baby, at ANY stage of development.
I don't need to Google it to know that it's absolute bullshit. If you're trying to make the point above, I don't know why you have to say something as sensational and misleading as this.
I don't kill bugs either. Last summer I let a whole colony of ants take over my house because I didn't want to kill them. I finally let someone else put out ant bait once it had become impossible to keep them from overrunning my cats' food bowls. I'm glad you haven't - and will never have to - imagine killing a baby at any stage of development. Not everyone is so fortunate.
Just a few other thoughts on abortion. I have heard that there are some laws being considered that require a woman to see an ultrasound before having an abortion. I think one law was just declined in Florida. I don't think it's a bad idea to show a woman the moving, living being inside of her. I would think it might make a few people reconsider having an abortion.
Also, just for the record I know wikipedia is not a perfect source, but I read this:
In 2000, cases of rape or incest accounted for 1% of abortions. Another study, in 1998, revealed that in 1987-1988 women reported the following reasons for choosing an abortion:
25.5% Want to postpone childbearing
21.3% Cannot afford a baby
14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy
12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy
10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job
7.9% Want no (more) children
3.3% Risk to fetal health
2.8% Risk to maternal health
2.1% Other
In my opinion, the last three are the only legitimate reasons.
And even if this poll in not 100% accurate or old, just from what i've read over the years, it is close to reality.
Just a few other thoughts on abortion. I have heard that there are some laws being considered that require a woman to see an ultrasound before having an abortion. I think one law was just declined in Florida. I don't think it's a bad idea to show a woman the moving, living being inside of her. I would think it might make a few people reconsider having an abortion.
In theory, I don't think that's a terrible law.. at least the idea behind it...
but in practice, you want to force people who are having a legal procedure to pay for another costly one first? that's what bothers me about it.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Just a few other thoughts on abortion. I have heard that there are some laws being considered that require a woman to see an ultrasound before having an abortion. I think one law was just declined in Florida. I don't think it's a bad idea to show a woman the moving, living being inside of her. I would think it might make a few people reconsider having an abortion.
In theory, I don't think that's a terrible law.. at least the idea behind it...
but in practice, you want to force people who are having a legal procedure to pay for another costly one first? that's what bothers me about it.
agreed. How bout if they do a special -- 1/2 price ultrasounds?
Well then I'll consider it a productive thread! I'll caution you to be careful where you do your research though. Most of the stuff you'll probably find on the internet is total bullshit. (And the reason I feel compelled to tell you this is because you seemed to believe the internet bullshit that was posted about the "common" forms of abortion.)
I'm sure all of your internet sources are the only true, non-bs ones huh?
And yes, I'm just kidding.
You should know better than that by now. But your joke will probably encourage people to be misinformed. Good job.
well all i know about life at conception is they will have to redo the whole birthday system.
haha, funny you should say that. I have a friend whose b-day is three days after mine and he always calls me to aks how it feels to be old. One day I realized that since I was a month early from my due date that he is actually older than me. (or, not to agrue more, but he was conceived before me)
So I started tacking on 8 months to my birthday and telling everone I want conception day presents.
just so you all know, I celebrate conceptoin day in MAy 17th.
and my half birthday is July 17th.
I accept presents in the forms of cash, PJ stuff, and rum.
I respect everyone's emotions, religion, etc. about their own pregnancies. I have cried at the funeral of a baby who was miscarried at 39 weeks, the day after throwing her mother a big baby shower. I have helped friends through emotionally painful miscarriages. I have witnessed autopsies of stillborn babies, and the agony the parents felt in making the decision to autopsy or not. And I have helped many women through abortions of pregnancies that they considered babies, and even been to memorial services provided by the abortion clinic. But these are all about the emotions and perspectives of the woman carrying the pregnancy. I don't think anyone has a right to tell a woman she's killing her "baby" when that is not only not her perspective but also not the perspective of medical science or law.
I don't know what "abortion simply for that sake" is - but I don't think it's my right to tell a woman it shouldn't be an option. If you're suggesting that most decisions to have abortions are made just as another birth control option - like, "I don't want to take the pill, so I'll just have an abortion if I get pregnant" - I disagree.
Is it that a women would have to acknowledge committing murder if their fetus is aborted . . . is that the bigger issue for you? You are obviously not devoid of emotion. If so, then I'm at last beginning to see some insight to your perspective.
I still think that the abortion issue would be better addressed by addressing the list of reasons why women seek abortion. It's clear that the world will never agree on whether or not the procedure is ethical/moral/or should be legal. I also think that the number of death row inmates would decrease if we prevented the causes of crimes that land someone on death row. I think the abortion vs. the death penalty debate is unwinable and we need to start some upstream thinking on these subjects.
It has been proven that a fetus at 20 weeks can feel pain and does react to it.
Here are some common procedures for abortion:
Partial-birth abortion - The unborn baby is delivered feet first, except for the head, which is punctured at the base of the skull with a sharp object. The brain is then suctioned out, killing the child. (This method was outlawed in the United States in 2007.)
Dilation and Evacuation - Sharp-edged instruments are used to grasp, twist and tear the baby’s body into pieces, which are then removed from the womb.
Saline abortion - Salt water is injected into the womb through the mother’s abdomen. The unborn baby swallows this fluid, is poisoned and dies in a process that sometimes takes 24 hours. The toxic saline solution causes severe burns over the unborn child’s entire body.
It's not true.
it is true. do some research. how do you think it happens?
Maybe today more commonly they use drugs, or that good old suction device to suck out all the babies parts and placenta
Dude, you have no idea about the research I've done. I'll tell you how it happens, which varies based on gestational age. Stats are for the United States, as of 2006, according to the CDC...
61% of abortions occur at 8 weeks or less (and nearly 1/2 of those are at less than 6 weeks).
78% of abortions occur at 10 weeks or less.
87% of abortion occur in the 1st trimester.
6% of abortions occur between 13-15 weeks.
4% of abortions occur between 16-20 weeks.
1% of abortions occur at 21 weeks or greater.
0.07% of abortions occur in the 3rd trimester, the point at which the medical community says it's possible for a fetus to live outside the womb.
22% of all abortions under 9 weeks are done with medication. It works like this: The woman takes a pill in the doctor's office. That pill ends the pregnancy by blocking the hormone (progesterone) that the body needs for the pregnancy to continue. Within the next 3 days, at home, the woman inserts or takes another pill that causes her to have cramps that expel the pregnancy like a heavy period. She sees what comes out, and I have never heard of anyone saying she saw anything that resembled a baby.
Other abortions in the first trimester happen like this: The woman lays on the table and her vagina is opened with a speculum, like when you get a pap smear. Shots are given to numb the cervix. The cervix is slowly dilated by placing a tiny rod into it, then a little bigger one, and so forth, depending on the gestational age. Then there is a currette, which is basically just a straw, that is attached to a hand-hand suction device that's basically a big syrynge. It can also be attached to a tube that goes to an electric vacuum machine, but this isn't necessary so early in the pregnancy. The doctor inserts the straw into the woman's uterus and uses the suction to remove the pregnancy. The entire process takes about 15 mintues.
Once you get past the 1st trimester, the process is similar but the cervix may need to be opened over a day or two with seaweed that's kind of like a tampon and the electric suction is necessary. This can be done at least up to 22 weeks. There are no sharp instruments involved. Forceps might be needed to remove anything they missed. Something may be given to end the life of the fetus before the actual procedure.
For 3rd trimester (and really late 2nd trimester) abortions, something is usally given to the fetus to end its life in the womb and then the patient delivers it like a stillborn.
The other methods are extremely rare (if not outlawed) and only used if the doctor thinks they're medically indicated.
Have whatever opinion about abortion procedures you want, but please don't spread such bullshit misinformation about what the common procedures are.
[4% of abortions occur between 16-20 weeks.
1% of abortions occur at 21 weeks or greater.
0.07% of abortions occur in the 3rd trimester, the point at which the medical community says it's possible for a fetus to live outside the womb.
22% of all abortions under 9 weeks are done with medication. It works like this: The woman takes a pill in the doctor's office. That pill ends the pregnancy by blocking the hormone (progesterone) that the body needs for the pregnancy to continue. Within the next 3 days, at home, the woman inserts or takes another pill that causes her to have cramps that expel the pregnancy like a heavy period. She sees what comes out, and I have never heard of anyone saying she saw anything that resembled a baby.
Ok, but it doesn’t explain how the death occurs. I assume that means the baby kinda starves to death? 22% is not a lot.
Other abortions in the first trimester happen like this: The woman lays on the table and her vagina is opened with a speculum, like when you get a pap smear. Shots are given to numb the cervix. The cervix is slowly dilated by placing a tiny rod into it, then a little bigger one, and so forth, depending on the gestational age. Then there is a currette, which is basically just a straw, that is attached to a hand-hand suction device that's basically a big syrynge. It can also be attached to a tube that goes to an electric vacuum machine, but this isn't necessary so early in the pregnancy. The doctor inserts the straw into the woman's uterus and uses the suction to remove the pregnancy. The entire process takes about 15 mintues.
So the baby is sucked apart to pieces with a vacuum/syringe? I don’t see this more much different than pulling it apart with tools. It’s terrible either way to me. Like I said, I can’t squash a bug, let alone make baby soup with a vacuum.
Have whatever opinion about abortion procedures you want, but please don't spread such bullshit misinformation about what the common procedures are.
My mistake. I honestly didn’t mean to make it sound like they are the most common procedures. (I said the first one I listed was outlawed in the original post.)
CJMST3K - I thought you might find that last bit interesting. I hope it at least shows that I'm not just completely pulling arbitrary baseless shit out of my ass.
I guess David Birnbach, M.D., president of the Society for Obstetric Anesthesia and Perinatology is clueless huh? I wouldnt call his findings arbitrary baseless shit out of anyones ass.
I was just giving instances that I thought might make people think differently. I thought that if anyone was to see how terrible abortion is, and SOME of the instances of how it is performed, some people might think twice about it and not just live by the arbitrary baseless, unscientific ideals that a baby isnt a person before it comes out of its mother.
I don't understand how you can say that this idea is completely arbitrary, baseless, and unscientific when I've just shown that many scientists have come to the same conclusion.
I was just giving instances that I thought might make people think differently. I thought that if anyone was to see how terrible abortion is, and SOME of the instances of how it is performed, some people might think twice about it and not just live by the arbitrary baseless, unscientific ideals that a baby isnt a person before it comes out of its mother.
I don't understand how you can say that this idea is completely arbitrary, baseless, and unscientific when I've just shown that many scientists have come to the same conclusion.
Sorry, I must've missed it...I didnt see where any scientists say that a baby isnt a person one day before birth, and then become a person as soon as it is born. I dont think there isnt really that much of a difference in the two. The arbitrary comment is the agrument that no-one will win about the definition of a person/human if we have opinions on the matter. Yes, the law can state that it isnt a person before it is 'born', but we all don't let the law govern our moral beliefs.
in fact, not to sidetrack (and this is a longshot), but the law is somewhat hypocritcal. You can abort a baby legally, but if someone kills a woman who is pregnant, they can be charged with two murders.
My view on abortion is this: so long as the fetus needs me as a life support system for it, it isn't an actual, separate person. It is part of me--it has no separate identity from me. It is me. I can do what I want to myself, and no one should have the right to run my life for me but me. I am grateful to live in country where others do not run my life for me or sacrifice my life to that of another or who might literally sacrifice my life to the mere wishes of others.
Just a few other thoughts on abortion. I have heard that there are some laws being considered that require a woman to see an ultrasound before having an abortion. I think one law was just declined in Florida. I don't think it's a bad idea to show a woman the moving, living being inside of her. I would think it might make a few people reconsider having an abortion.
Also, just for the record I know wikipedia is not a perfect source, but I read this:
In 2000, cases of rape or incest accounted for 1% of abortions. Another study, in 1998, revealed that in 1987-1988 women reported the following reasons for choosing an abortion:
25.5% Want to postpone childbearing
21.3% Cannot afford a baby
14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy
12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy
10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job
7.9% Want no (more) children
3.3% Risk to fetal health
2.8% Risk to maternal health
2.1% Other
In my opinion, the last three are the only legitimate reasons.
And even if this poll in not 100% accurate or old, just from what i've read over the years, it is close to reality.
Those are the only legitimate reasons to have an abortion after 12-16 weeks or ever?
Did you know that most ultrasounds done before an abortion have to be done using a vaginal probe (because the fetus is too small to see with a regular ultrasound)? One of the reasons these laws are being rejected - aside from the fact that it's politicians inserting themselves between a patient and her doctore - is because there have not been (any, to my knowledge) exceptions for rape victims, who could be further traumatized by having their vaginas probed against their will.
Actually I meant a pregnancy that has progressed for 3 months. So, 6 months premature. They can live.
Please provide some evidence that this is possible and statistics indicating what the chances are.
Google it. I have read very rare instances. Obviosly 3 months sounds ridiculous. But it definitely happens at 5-6 months. But this has nothing to do with how prevalent it is. The point is, that a typical 9 month pregnancy is a lousy way of defining a person/baby/will to live/consiousness.This is about the fact that if ANY premature baby can survive, can it be considerd a person?
it is a living organism. I am the kind of person that doesnt kill bugs in my house. I catch them and release them outside. I can't imagine killing a baby, at ANY stage of development.
obviously it sound ridiculous because it is ridiculous and totally untrue. whoever or wherever you heard that from was lying and aiming for sensationalism. either that or they are seriously ill informed.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I respect everyone's emotions, religion, etc. about their own pregnancies. I have cried at the funeral of a baby who was miscarried at 39 weeks, the day after throwing her mother a big baby shower. I have helped friends through emotionally painful miscarriages. I have witnessed autopsies of stillborn babies, and the agony the parents felt in making the decision to autopsy or not. And I have helped many women through abortions of pregnancies that they considered babies, and even been to memorial services provided by the abortion clinic. But these are all about the emotions and perspectives of the woman carrying the pregnancy. I don't think anyone has a right to tell a woman she's killing her "baby" when that is not only not her perspective but also not the perspective of medical science or law.
I don't know what "abortion simply for that sake" is - but I don't think it's my right to tell a woman it shouldn't be an option. If you're suggesting that most decisions to have abortions are made just as another birth control option - like, "I don't want to take the pill, so I'll just have an abortion if I get pregnant" - I disagree.
Nope, I'm not suggesting in any way that MOST abortions are performed as an alternative to birth control, I am saying that SOME are. I personally know a woman who had three children already, she is a couple of years younger than me - married, all of the children have the same father (a chauvinistic arrogant arsehole moron - but that's besides the point), all the kids are healthy, they are financially stable, no issues to speak of. She fell pregnant to her husband, and they waited until the 11 week ultrasound, where they were told the baby was a girl, (and yes, I know that it's not always possible to tell the sex of a child that early on, but it IS possible - I found out that early that my son was a boy)..and she then had an abortion. No issues with the child other than the fact that it was female and they wanted a boy (they had two girls and one boy already). My issue lies here with the fact that the law says that's ok. All they had to do to get an abortion at 11 and a half weeks was to say that they didn't want to be pregnant. (she had the procedure booked BEFORE the ultrasound, with the option to cancel). She didn't cancel the appointment and then a couple of months later became pregnant again and it was a boy - who they kept. I find this disgusting. And I get that this is the minority. I have stated over and over again - a woman's right to choose is essential. I just believe there should be a way to impose a moral requirement on that, but obviously it's not going to happen.
And I would never say to her 'you've killed your baby'. I don't necessarily think completely that way - I understand what you are saying on that point. MY children were real to me, and babies from that point on, but her child wasn't real to me - and I could never say to her, no matter how much it disturbs me that she did it, that she killed her child, because it IS a different situation to someone having a late pregnancy abortion, or someone killing their child after it is born. I get that - but I think I would have a different point of view if she had been over half way through her pregnancy - because it IS a real living moving child by that point, that with a lot of EXTREME medical help could survive outside the womb.
So I guess that is really my ultimate timeframe when I think it over in my head logically. ONce a pregnancy progresses to the point that the baby could survive without the mother, then it's IN MY OPINION wrong to terminate it - but I also know this rarely happens. Most abortions are done early on and I know this. But personally for me in regards to my own body, its a lot earlier than that point.
I would agree though, about the point made giving the comparison between abortion and the fact that if someone murders a woman while she is pregnant, they are charged with two murders. I would ask though, because I really don't know - are there laws in regard to second or third trimester abortion? If so, this would make this point (the comparison between murdering two people and abortion) invalid completely.
I still won't ever agree that a foetus isn't a baby - but that's my own opinion, and everyone has theirs, and there has been a lot of valid points made in this thread.
1. Characteristics of a person include individuality, the development of self-consciousness and consciousness of the world around it, and development of the ability for rational thought.
im assuming(correct me if im wrong) that according to your definition, only humans can be classified as persons??? yet youve no idea if other creatures share these charcteristics because yuore human and can only have the knowledge of being a human.
so i shall reask my question: what is a person?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
This was in the New Yorker a little less than a year ago. It's the best, and most shocking piece I've ever read about the death penalty (I think it was also noted on a bunch of lists as one of the most important articles of the year). A must read for anyone interested in this topic.
I respect everyone's emotions, religion, etc. about their own pregnancies. I have cried at the funeral of a baby who was miscarried at 39 weeks, the day after throwing her mother a big baby shower. I have helped friends through emotionally painful miscarriages. I have witnessed autopsies of stillborn babies, and the agony the parents felt in making the decision to autopsy or not. And I have helped many women through abortions of pregnancies that they considered babies, and even been to memorial services provided by the abortion clinic. But these are all about the emotions and perspectives of the woman carrying the pregnancy. I don't think anyone has a right to tell a woman she's killing her "baby" when that is not only not her perspective but also not the perspective of medical science or law.
I don't know what "abortion simply for that sake" is - but I don't think it's my right to tell a woman it shouldn't be an option. If you're suggesting that most decisions to have abortions are made just as another birth control option - like, "I don't want to take the pill, so I'll just have an abortion if I get pregnant" - I disagree.
Is it that a women would have to acknowledge committing murder if their fetus is aborted . . . is that the bigger issue for you? You are obviously not devoid of emotion. If so, then I'm at last beginning to see some insight to your perspective.
I'm not sure I understand your question.
If you're asking for clarification of my post above, I was just saying I think there's a big difference between biology (and the law) and how we choose to perceive or feel about things. I support whatever way people choose to perceive and the emotions they have about their own lives. But I don't think anyone's perception changes the actual biological facts. And I don't think anyone's perception should be pushed onto anyone else.
For instance, if my parents had divorced when I was a kid and I had been raised in a home with a stepfather, I could consider the stepfather to be my dad. (I'm using father and dad synonymously here.) But that could never make him my biological father. And I would have no right to tell someone else that they should feel the same way about their stepfather, nor should I expect the law to change to fall in line with my feelings about my situation.
I still think that the abortion issue would be better addressed by addressing the list of reasons why women seek abortion. It's clear that the world will never agree on whether or not the procedure is ethical/moral/or should be legal. I also think that the number of death row inmates would decrease if we prevented the causes of crimes that land someone on death row. I think the abortion vs. the death penalty debate is unwinable and we need to start some upstream thinking on these subjects.
[4% of abortions occur between 16-20 weeks.
1% of abortions occur at 21 weeks or greater.
0.07% of abortions occur in the 3rd trimester, the point at which the medical community says it's possible for a fetus to live outside the womb.
Thank god these stats are low.
I agree. But I think many people in this country are under the impression that they are MUCH higher.
22% of all abortions under 9 weeks are done with medication. It works like this: The woman takes a pill in the doctor's office. That pill ends the pregnancy by blocking the hormone (progesterone) that the body needs for the pregnancy to continue. Within the next 3 days, at home, the woman inserts or takes another pill that causes her to have cramps that expel the pregnancy like a heavy period. She sees what comes out, and I have never heard of anyone saying she saw anything that resembled a baby.
Ok, but it doesn’t explain how the death occurs. I assume that means the baby kinda starves to death? 22% is not a lot.
Not really. Progesterone prepares the lining of the uterus to allow implantation of the fertilized egg. Insufficient progesterone can cause the lining of the uterus to be unable to hold on to a fertilized egg, leading to infertility or early miscarriage. (Many, many women miscarry without ever even knowing they're pregnant.) So when the pill blocks the progesterone, the lining of the uterus becomes insufficient to hold on to the embryo. Since implantation of the embryo is necessary for pregnancy to continue (or to be established), the pregnancy just doesn't continue. Placentas provide the nourishment to fetuses, but at this stage in pregnancy there's not yet even a functioning placenta, so the nourishment and waste exchange system isn't even set up yet.
Other abortions in the first trimester happen like this: The woman lays on the table and her vagina is opened with a speculum, like when you get a pap smear. Shots are given to numb the cervix. The cervix is slowly dilated by placing a tiny rod into it, then a little bigger one, and so forth, depending on the gestational age. Then there is a currette, which is basically just a straw, that is attached to a hand-hand suction device that's basically a big syrynge. It can also be attached to a tube that goes to an electric vacuum machine, but this isn't necessary so early in the pregnancy. The doctor inserts the straw into the woman's uterus and uses the suction to remove the pregnancy. The entire process takes about 15 mintues.
So the baby is sucked apart to pieces with a vacuum/syringe? I don’t see this more much different than pulling it apart with tools. It’s terrible either way to me. Like I said, I can’t squash a bug, let alone make baby soup with a vacuum.
The majority of abortions occur early enough that you can't even find an embryo. There aren't really even pieces to be sucked apart.
Have whatever opinion about abortion procedures you want, but please don't spread such bullshit misinformation about what the common procedures are.
My mistake. I honestly didn’t mean to make it sound like they are the most common procedures. (I said the first one I listed was outlawed in the original post.)
So then, no, the first "procedure" you listed doesn't occur since it's against the law. (Of course this leaves only less safe procedures for the very, very few women who are far enough along and have whatever medical indications that warranted this "procedure". I put it in quotes because "partial birth abortion" is not a term for a specific medical procedure.)
Yes, the others do occur - possibly less often than other methods of abortion like shoving coat hangers into your uterus, having someone punch you in the stomach, throwing yourself down a flight of stairs, or committing suicide. I don't know.
I was just giving instances that I thought might make people think differently. I thought that if anyone was to see how terrible abortion is, and SOME of the instances of how it is performed, some people might think twice about it and not just live by the arbitrary baseless, unscientific ideals that a baby isnt a person before it comes out of its mother.
I don't understand how you can say that this idea is completely arbitrary, baseless, and unscientific when I've just shown that many scientists have come to the same conclusion.
Sorry, I must've missed it...I didnt see where any scientists say that a baby isnt a person one day before birth, and then become a person as soon as it is born. I dont think there isnt really that much of a difference in the two. The arbitrary comment is the agrument that no-one will win about the definition of a person/human if we have opinions on the matter. Yes, the law can state that it isnt a person before it is 'born', but we all don't let the law govern our moral beliefs.
in fact, not to sidetrack (and this is a longshot), but the law is somewhat hypocritcal. You can abort a baby legally, but if someone kills a woman who is pregnant, they can be charged with two murders.
The paragraph I quoted doesn't specifically define "person" but it does say that scientific information shows that a fetus can't experience consciousness, sensation, or emotions until birth. And I'm sure there is plenty of science and philosophy that defines "person" as having developed the ability to experience these things.
I'm not saying there isn't any debate within the scientific community. I'm just saying it's not arbitrary baseless, unscientific shit that I'm pulling out of my ass.
Nope, I'm not suggesting in any way that MOST abortions are performed as an alternative to birth control, I am saying that SOME are. I personally know a woman who had three children already, she is a couple of years younger than me - married, all of the children have the same father (a chauvinistic arrogant arsehole moron - but that's besides the point), all the kids are healthy, they are financially stable, no issues to speak of. She fell pregnant to her husband, and they waited until the 11 week ultrasound, where they were told the baby was a girl, (and yes, I know that it's not always possible to tell the sex of a child that early on, but it IS possible - I found out that early that my son was a boy)..and she then had an abortion. No issues with the child other than the fact that it was female and they wanted a boy (they had two girls and one boy already). My issue lies here with the fact that the law says that's ok. All they had to do to get an abortion at 11 and a half weeks was to say that they didn't want to be pregnant. (she had the procedure booked BEFORE the ultrasound, with the option to cancel). She didn't cancel the appointment and then a couple of months later became pregnant again and it was a boy - who they kept. I find this disgusting. And I get that this is the minority. I have stated over and over again - a woman's right to choose is essential. I just believe there should be a way to impose a moral requirement on that, but obviously it's not going to happen.
And I would never say to her 'you've killed your baby'. I don't necessarily think completely that way - I understand what you are saying on that point. MY children were real to me, and babies from that point on, but her child wasn't real to me - and I could never say to her, no matter how much it disturbs me that she did it, that she killed her child, because it IS a different situation to someone having a late pregnancy abortion, or someone killing their child after it is born. I get that - but I think I would have a different point of view if she had been over half way through her pregnancy - because it IS a real living moving child by that point, that with a lot of EXTREME medical help could survive outside the womb.
So I guess that is really my ultimate timeframe when I think it over in my head logically. ONce a pregnancy progresses to the point that the baby could survive without the mother, then it's IN MY OPINION wrong to terminate it - but I also know this rarely happens. Most abortions are done early on and I know this. But personally for me in regards to my own body, its a lot earlier than that point.
I would agree though, about the point made giving the comparison between abortion and the fact that if someone murders a woman while she is pregnant, they are charged with two murders. I would ask though, because I really don't know - are there laws in regard to second or third trimester abortion? If so, this would make this point (the comparison between murdering two people and abortion) invalid completely.
I still won't ever agree that a foetus isn't a baby - but that's my own opinion, and everyone has theirs, and there has been a lot of valid points made in this thread.
That's a sad story about the woman you know. Personally, I don't feel really comfortable with someone in Western cultures ending a pregnancy solely because of the sex. But I'm glad my comfort level isn't imposed upon her choice. Here's something else to think about: Plenty of women are not honest about their reasons for having abortions. Some make the reasons seem "better" than they are and some make them seem "worse". I've found that oftentimes there's more to the story.
Roe v. Wade - which is a Supreme Court ruling interpreting what is constitutional, but not a law in itself - says abortion cannot be criminalized in the 1st or 2nd trimesters. Post-viability, individual states may choose to criminalize it, but they cannot criminalize it in cases where it's necessary to save the life or health of the mother. 38 states prohibit the abortion of a viable fetus. 1 of those states make an exception for rape or incest. 1 of those states makes an exception for rape, incest, or lethal fetal abnormality. 1 of those states makes an exception for fetal abnormality (but doesn't specify that it must be lethal).
I'm not sure how many states charge people for 2 murders when they kill a pregnant woman.
The paragraph I quoted doesn't specifically define "person" but it does say that scientific information shows that a fetus can't experience consciousness, sensation, or emotions until birth. And I'm sure there is plenty of science and philosophy that defines "person" as having developed the ability to experience these things.
I'm not saying there isn't any debate within the scientific community. I'm just saying it's not arbitrary baseless, unscientific shit that I'm pulling out of my ass.
but they respond to music so how can it be said they cant feel sensation?
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Comments
I respect everyone's emotions, religion, etc. about their own pregnancies. I have cried at the funeral of a baby who was miscarried at 39 weeks, the day after throwing her mother a big baby shower. I have helped friends through emotionally painful miscarriages. I have witnessed autopsies of stillborn babies, and the agony the parents felt in making the decision to autopsy or not. And I have helped many women through abortions of pregnancies that they considered babies, and even been to memorial services provided by the abortion clinic. But these are all about the emotions and perspectives of the woman carrying the pregnancy. I don't think anyone has a right to tell a woman she's killing her "baby" when that is not only not her perspective but also not the perspective of medical science or law.
I don't know what "abortion simply for that sake" is - but I don't think it's my right to tell a woman it shouldn't be an option. If you're suggesting that most decisions to have abortions are made just as another birth control option - like, "I don't want to take the pill, so I'll just have an abortion if I get pregnant" - I disagree.
Well I've already considered all the counterpoints made in this thread and if I was going to believe them I would have believed them already. I already said I can understand why people feel like their unborn are babies and that I respect that, so I'm not sure why you think I'm not considering what Stardust has to say. On an emotional level, I think of a fetus and even an embryo as a baby too - I just don't think individual emotions are relevant to medicine. I believe I've even said that the line gets blurrier at the end of a pregnancy. And I've asked at what point everyone else thinks a fetus becomes a baby, but hardly anyone has responded - they just reply by saying I'm wrong. Stardust responded by saying she thinks it's when the heart starts beating and I didn't argue with her about that at all. What else do you want me to say? :? Personally, as I've said, the issue of whether or not it's a baby isn't really relevant to me when it comes to abortion - except in the comparison between abortion and the death penalty.
You should know better than that by now. But your joke will probably encourage people to be misinformed. Good job.
I don't need to Google it to know that it's absolute bullshit. If you're trying to make the point above, I don't know why you have to say something as sensational and misleading as this.
I don't kill bugs either. Last summer I let a whole colony of ants take over my house because I didn't want to kill them. I finally let someone else put out ant bait once it had become impossible to keep them from overrunning my cats' food bowls. I'm glad you haven't - and will never have to - imagine killing a baby at any stage of development. Not everyone is so fortunate.
Just a few other thoughts on abortion. I have heard that there are some laws being considered that require a woman to see an ultrasound before having an abortion. I think one law was just declined in Florida. I don't think it's a bad idea to show a woman the moving, living being inside of her. I would think it might make a few people reconsider having an abortion.
Also, just for the record I know wikipedia is not a perfect source, but I read this:
In 2000, cases of rape or incest accounted for 1% of abortions. Another study, in 1998, revealed that in 1987-1988 women reported the following reasons for choosing an abortion:
25.5% Want to postpone childbearing
21.3% Cannot afford a baby
14.1% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy
12.2% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy
10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job
7.9% Want no (more) children
3.3% Risk to fetal health
2.8% Risk to maternal health
2.1% Other
In my opinion, the last three are the only legitimate reasons.
And even if this poll in not 100% accurate or old, just from what i've read over the years, it is close to reality.
In theory, I don't think that's a terrible law.. at least the idea behind it...
but in practice, you want to force people who are having a legal procedure to pay for another costly one first? that's what bothers me about it.
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of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
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agreed. How bout if they do a special -- 1/2 price ultrasounds?
Thanks. But how exactly?
well all i know about life at conception is they will have to redo the whole birthday system.
haha, funny you should say that. I have a friend whose b-day is three days after mine and he always calls me to aks how it feels to be old. One day I realized that since I was a month early from my due date that he is actually older than me. (or, not to agrue more, but he was conceived before me)
So I started tacking on 8 months to my birthday and telling everone I want conception day presents.
just so you all know, I celebrate conceptoin day in MAy 17th.
and my half birthday is July 17th.
I accept presents in the forms of cash, PJ stuff, and rum.
Dude, you have no idea about the research I've done. I'll tell you how it happens, which varies based on gestational age. Stats are for the United States, as of 2006, according to the CDC...
61% of abortions occur at 8 weeks or less (and nearly 1/2 of those are at less than 6 weeks).
78% of abortions occur at 10 weeks or less.
87% of abortion occur in the 1st trimester.
6% of abortions occur between 13-15 weeks.
4% of abortions occur between 16-20 weeks.
1% of abortions occur at 21 weeks or greater.
0.07% of abortions occur in the 3rd trimester, the point at which the medical community says it's possible for a fetus to live outside the womb.
22% of all abortions under 9 weeks are done with medication. It works like this: The woman takes a pill in the doctor's office. That pill ends the pregnancy by blocking the hormone (progesterone) that the body needs for the pregnancy to continue. Within the next 3 days, at home, the woman inserts or takes another pill that causes her to have cramps that expel the pregnancy like a heavy period. She sees what comes out, and I have never heard of anyone saying she saw anything that resembled a baby.
Other abortions in the first trimester happen like this: The woman lays on the table and her vagina is opened with a speculum, like when you get a pap smear. Shots are given to numb the cervix. The cervix is slowly dilated by placing a tiny rod into it, then a little bigger one, and so forth, depending on the gestational age. Then there is a currette, which is basically just a straw, that is attached to a hand-hand suction device that's basically a big syrynge. It can also be attached to a tube that goes to an electric vacuum machine, but this isn't necessary so early in the pregnancy. The doctor inserts the straw into the woman's uterus and uses the suction to remove the pregnancy. The entire process takes about 15 mintues.
Once you get past the 1st trimester, the process is similar but the cervix may need to be opened over a day or two with seaweed that's kind of like a tampon and the electric suction is necessary. This can be done at least up to 22 weeks. There are no sharp instruments involved. Forceps might be needed to remove anything they missed. Something may be given to end the life of the fetus before the actual procedure.
For 3rd trimester (and really late 2nd trimester) abortions, something is usally given to the fetus to end its life in the womb and then the patient delivers it like a stillborn.
The other methods are extremely rare (if not outlawed) and only used if the doctor thinks they're medically indicated.
Have whatever opinion about abortion procedures you want, but please don't spread such bullshit misinformation about what the common procedures are.
Thank god these stats are low.
Ok, but it doesn’t explain how the death occurs. I assume that means the baby kinda starves to death? 22% is not a lot.
So the baby is sucked apart to pieces with a vacuum/syringe? I don’t see this more much different than pulling it apart with tools. It’s terrible either way to me. Like I said, I can’t squash a bug, let alone make baby soup with a vacuum.
The other methods? Hmm, but they DO occur.
My mistake. I honestly didn’t mean to make it sound like they are the most common procedures. (I said the first one I listed was outlawed in the original post.)
And I didn't.
I don't understand how you can say that this idea is completely arbitrary, baseless, and unscientific when I've just shown that many scientists have come to the same conclusion.
Sorry, I must've missed it...I didnt see where any scientists say that a baby isnt a person one day before birth, and then become a person as soon as it is born. I dont think there isnt really that much of a difference in the two. The arbitrary comment is the agrument that no-one will win about the definition of a person/human if we have opinions on the matter. Yes, the law can state that it isnt a person before it is 'born', but we all don't let the law govern our moral beliefs.
in fact, not to sidetrack (and this is a longshot), but the law is somewhat hypocritcal. You can abort a baby legally, but if someone kills a woman who is pregnant, they can be charged with two murders.
Those are the only legitimate reasons to have an abortion after 12-16 weeks or ever?
Did you know that most ultrasounds done before an abortion have to be done using a vaginal probe (because the fetus is too small to see with a regular ultrasound)? One of the reasons these laws are being rejected - aside from the fact that it's politicians inserting themselves between a patient and her doctore - is because there have not been (any, to my knowledge) exceptions for rape victims, who could be further traumatized by having their vaginas probed against their will.
obviously it sound ridiculous because it is ridiculous and totally untrue. whoever or wherever you heard that from was lying and aiming for sensationalism. either that or they are seriously ill informed.
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Nope, I'm not suggesting in any way that MOST abortions are performed as an alternative to birth control, I am saying that SOME are. I personally know a woman who had three children already, she is a couple of years younger than me - married, all of the children have the same father (a chauvinistic arrogant arsehole moron - but that's besides the point), all the kids are healthy, they are financially stable, no issues to speak of. She fell pregnant to her husband, and they waited until the 11 week ultrasound, where they were told the baby was a girl, (and yes, I know that it's not always possible to tell the sex of a child that early on, but it IS possible - I found out that early that my son was a boy)..and she then had an abortion. No issues with the child other than the fact that it was female and they wanted a boy (they had two girls and one boy already). My issue lies here with the fact that the law says that's ok. All they had to do to get an abortion at 11 and a half weeks was to say that they didn't want to be pregnant. (she had the procedure booked BEFORE the ultrasound, with the option to cancel). She didn't cancel the appointment and then a couple of months later became pregnant again and it was a boy - who they kept. I find this disgusting. And I get that this is the minority. I have stated over and over again - a woman's right to choose is essential. I just believe there should be a way to impose a moral requirement on that, but obviously it's not going to happen.
And I would never say to her 'you've killed your baby'. I don't necessarily think completely that way - I understand what you are saying on that point. MY children were real to me, and babies from that point on, but her child wasn't real to me - and I could never say to her, no matter how much it disturbs me that she did it, that she killed her child, because it IS a different situation to someone having a late pregnancy abortion, or someone killing their child after it is born. I get that - but I think I would have a different point of view if she had been over half way through her pregnancy - because it IS a real living moving child by that point, that with a lot of EXTREME medical help could survive outside the womb.
So I guess that is really my ultimate timeframe when I think it over in my head logically. ONce a pregnancy progresses to the point that the baby could survive without the mother, then it's IN MY OPINION wrong to terminate it - but I also know this rarely happens. Most abortions are done early on and I know this. But personally for me in regards to my own body, its a lot earlier than that point.
I would agree though, about the point made giving the comparison between abortion and the fact that if someone murders a woman while she is pregnant, they are charged with two murders. I would ask though, because I really don't know - are there laws in regard to second or third trimester abortion? If so, this would make this point (the comparison between murdering two people and abortion) invalid completely.
I still won't ever agree that a foetus isn't a baby - but that's my own opinion, and everyone has theirs, and there has been a lot of valid points made in this thread.
im assuming(correct me if im wrong) that according to your definition, only humans can be classified as persons??? yet youve no idea if other creatures share these charcteristics because yuore human and can only have the knowledge of being a human.
so i shall reask my question: what is a person?
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By likening legitimate information to internet bullshit, as if all sources are equal.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009 ... fact_grann
I'm not sure I understand your question.
If you're asking for clarification of my post above, I was just saying I think there's a big difference between biology (and the law) and how we choose to perceive or feel about things. I support whatever way people choose to perceive and the emotions they have about their own lives. But I don't think anyone's perception changes the actual biological facts. And I don't think anyone's perception should be pushed onto anyone else.
For instance, if my parents had divorced when I was a kid and I had been raised in a home with a stepfather, I could consider the stepfather to be my dad. (I'm using father and dad synonymously here.) But that could never make him my biological father. And I would have no right to tell someone else that they should feel the same way about their stepfather, nor should I expect the law to change to fall in line with my feelings about my situation.
Or were you asking something else?
I wholeheartedly agree.
I agree. But I think many people in this country are under the impression that they are MUCH higher.
Not really. Progesterone prepares the lining of the uterus to allow implantation of the fertilized egg. Insufficient progesterone can cause the lining of the uterus to be unable to hold on to a fertilized egg, leading to infertility or early miscarriage. (Many, many women miscarry without ever even knowing they're pregnant.) So when the pill blocks the progesterone, the lining of the uterus becomes insufficient to hold on to the embryo. Since implantation of the embryo is necessary for pregnancy to continue (or to be established), the pregnancy just doesn't continue. Placentas provide the nourishment to fetuses, but at this stage in pregnancy there's not yet even a functioning placenta, so the nourishment and waste exchange system isn't even set up yet.
The majority of abortions occur early enough that you can't even find an embryo. There aren't really even pieces to be sucked apart.
So then, no, the first "procedure" you listed doesn't occur since it's against the law. (Of course this leaves only less safe procedures for the very, very few women who are far enough along and have whatever medical indications that warranted this "procedure". I put it in quotes because "partial birth abortion" is not a term for a specific medical procedure.)
Yes, the others do occur - possibly less often than other methods of abortion like shoving coat hangers into your uterus, having someone punch you in the stomach, throwing yourself down a flight of stairs, or committing suicide. I don't know.
http://forums.pearljam.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=135746&start=195#p3065485
The paragraph I quoted doesn't specifically define "person" but it does say that scientific information shows that a fetus can't experience consciousness, sensation, or emotions until birth. And I'm sure there is plenty of science and philosophy that defines "person" as having developed the ability to experience these things.
I'm not saying there isn't any debate within the scientific community. I'm just saying it's not arbitrary baseless, unscientific shit that I'm pulling out of my ass.
That's a sad story about the woman you know. Personally, I don't feel really comfortable with someone in Western cultures ending a pregnancy solely because of the sex. But I'm glad my comfort level isn't imposed upon her choice. Here's something else to think about: Plenty of women are not honest about their reasons for having abortions. Some make the reasons seem "better" than they are and some make them seem "worse". I've found that oftentimes there's more to the story.
Roe v. Wade - which is a Supreme Court ruling interpreting what is constitutional, but not a law in itself - says abortion cannot be criminalized in the 1st or 2nd trimesters. Post-viability, individual states may choose to criminalize it, but they cannot criminalize it in cases where it's necessary to save the life or health of the mother. 38 states prohibit the abortion of a viable fetus. 1 of those states make an exception for rape or incest. 1 of those states makes an exception for rape, incest, or lethal fetal abnormality. 1 of those states makes an exception for fetal abnormality (but doesn't specify that it must be lethal).
I'm not sure how many states charge people for 2 murders when they kill a pregnant woman.
but they respond to music so how can it be said they cant feel sensation?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say