the death penalty

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Comments

  • ajedigeckoajedigecko \m/deplorable af \m/ Posts: 2,430
    Paul David wrote:
    I wonder if some of these people get into a car accident that isn't their fault, and then turn their car back on, back up, and ram the other car back, because that is what's just and right? :lol:
    accident being the key word.......thus, does not apply.
    live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    Paul David wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Then the other question is when does an obvious dangerous person give up his rights.

    that's an excellent point that I've wrestled with myself. I'm actually quite surprised it's never been addressed before. I don't have an answer to that one. Anyone?

    I believe the moment a person knowingly commits a heinous crime, he/she has forfeited the right to freedom, etc. Basic human rights are to be acknowledged, certainly, but this person's sentence is a punishment, not a holiday. How this is implemented is up to the 'authorities' and is possibly a different debate to the morality of state sanctioned murder.
  • lukin2006 wrote:
    Assuming that the death penalty was abolished completely in the US, how do yo guarantee the public the most dangerous never get out. It's obvious from another post that dangerous people have been released or escaped. Would you build a super max in a remote area? 24 hour lock down? Then the other question is when does an obvious dangerous person give up his rights.
    if the US can establish a maximum security facilty like Guantanamo to house prisoners who have never been charged and never been given a trial, one would assume that they could build something similar in the good old USA to house convicted murderers. yeah?

    this should go without saying, but leaving out the torture, sexual degradation and other revolting acts would be nice too.

    ok.

    thanks.
  • ajedigecko wrote:
    Paul David wrote:
    I wonder if some of these people get into a car accident that isn't their fault, and then turn their car back on, back up, and ram the other car back, because that is what's just and right? :lol:
    accident being the key word.......thus, does not apply.

    sorry.............forgot this was a "no humour zone". :roll:
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • lukin2006 wrote:
    Assuming that the death penalty was abolished completely in the US, how do yo guarantee the public the most dangerous never get out. It's obvious from another post that dangerous people have been released or escaped. Would you build a super max in a remote area? 24 hour lock down? Then the other question is when does an obvious dangerous person give up his rights.

    An answer to your first question might be to look to the rest of the world. Over 70% of countries in the world have abolished the death penalty, including all industrialised nations, except the US and Japan, so there is a huge wealth of precedents to be had.

    The answer to your second is: he doesn't. That is the whole point of rights - everyone is entitled to them, by the merit of being human - and no one has the right to take them away, even if they have violated someone else's rights. No one is entitled to make the subjective judgment that someone has "forfeited" their rights. To do so totally undermines the very notion of rights. The only point where your rights are tempered is where they interact incompatibly with other people's rights. So you have the right to free expression, but only so much in that in excercising that right you aren't violating someone else's right to freedom from oppression, or discrimination etc. Or in this case, a person has the right to freedom, but only insomuch that his freedom doesn't violate other people's right to freedom from persecution, or their right to life.

    By the way, before anyone says it, it is not legitimate to then say a prisoner has a right to life only insofar as he hasn't violated someone else's right to life, as that would be retrospective. Nor on the basis that "he might kill again" because that is purely speculative.
    93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • JonnyPistachioJonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    edited November 2010
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Assuming that the death penalty was abolished completely in the US, how do yo guarantee the public the most dangerous never get out. It's obvious from another post that dangerous people have been released or escaped. Would you build a super max in a remote area? 24 hour lock down? Then the other question is when does an obvious dangerous person give up his rights.

    There are over 310 million peopel in the U.S.
    Since 1977 there have been an average of 37 people executed each year (in the US).
    thats s pretty small number to worry about. But i wouldnt mind a 24 hr lockdown where they dont ever see the sun again.

    in that earlier post by GF, it mostly wasnt the people on death row that were escaping and doing most of those terrible things when released. There's probably no guarnatee that anyone wont EVER get out.. just as much as there's no guarantee that everyone executed is guilty.

    I guess an obvious dangerous person gives up his/her rights when they are convicted of their crimes.
    Post edited by JonnyPistachio on
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,497
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Assuming that the death penalty was abolished completely in the US, how do yo guarantee the public the most dangerous never get out. It's obvious from another post that dangerous people have been released or escaped. Would you build a super max in a remote area? 24 hour lock down? Then the other question is when does an obvious dangerous person give up his rights.
    if the US can establish a maximum security facilty like Guantanamo to house prisoners who have never been charged and never been given a trial, one would assume that they could build something similar in the good old USA to house convicted murderers. yeah?

    this should go without saying, but leaving out the torture, sexual degradation and other revolting acts would be nice too.

    ok.

    thanks.

    So...can we put them in a cell and not let them out ever? Have a small hole for food...have a toilet and a sink to wash...and never open the door (unless the cell needs maintenance, in which case they are brought immediately to another cell)? No TV, no other prisoners, no freedom to roam, no outside time, no exercise equipment? Is that cruel and unusual punishment? Oh, and no suicide watch either. Don't kill them, but certainly don't care if they do it to themselves.

    I could easily abandon my support of the death penalty if the risk to others was eliminated through the situation I described above.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • ajedigeckoajedigecko \m/deplorable af \m/ Posts: 2,430
    Paul David wrote:
    ajedigecko wrote:
    Paul David wrote:
    I wonder if some of these people get into a car accident that isn't their fault, and then turn their car back on, back up, and ram the other car back, because that is what's just and right? :lol:
    accident being the key word.......thus, does not apply.

    sorry.............forgot this was a "no humour zone". :roll:
    no reason to apologize....just a simple attempt, at being consistant. i have a difficult time at this website, when trying to understand humour.

    for the only reason being......in one post a person is serious, then immediately they become not serious.
    live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    ed243421 wrote:
    chad and on the edge
    please do not change your views on this subject
    i will never understand why they take the side of a murderer
    and that's fine
    but i won't change my mind
    there is nothing that the anti-dp folk can say that would make me think otherwise
    i do not need to change their views
    i have mine
    thank you
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    edited November 2010
    The answer to your second is: he doesn't. That is the whole point of rights - everyone is entitled to them, by the merit of being human - and no one has the right to take them away, even if they have violated someone else's rights. No one is entitled to make the subjective judgment that someone has "forfeited" their rights. To do so totally undermines the very notion of rights. .

    But you do take away a number of rights of those incarcerated - that is the nature of their punishment. Basic human rights are an entitlement, but the person committing the crime knows there will be consequences and by default accepts these, therefore forfeiting any right (other than the basic human rights) that my be abolished by these consequences. Obviously, if the person committing the crime is not of sane mind, that is a different issue.
    Post edited by redrock on
  • JonnyPistachioJonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    btw just a tidbit,
    by region, since 1977, there have been
    1015 executions in the South
    4 in the Northeast

    http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/documents/FactSheet.pdf
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • I could easily abandon my support of the death penalty if the risk to others was eliminated through the situation I described above.
    Just to put things in a little bit of context here: I know there was a list of examples of convicted murderers who reoffended a few pages back, that sparked quite a bit of hysteria. But it's important to note the fact that murder has the lowest rates of recidivism of any crime. There have been studies that have shown that over 70% of released thieves have commited further robberies, as compared to just over 1% of released murder convicts.

    Again, this supports the case for improving and reforming incarceration procedures, and really, really doesn't support the wholesale execution of murderers on the grounds that everyone is in danger as long as they're alive. That's simply not the case.
    93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • JonnyPistachioJonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    ed243421 wrote:
    i will never understand why they take the side of a murderer

    i'm just gonna go ahead and assume you havent been along for the whole ride. Maybe read up a bit before you jump to conclusions.
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • I get that. that's why I put the "laughing smiley" at the end.
    ajedigecko wrote:
    no reason to apologize....just a simple attempt, at being consistant. i have a difficult time at this website, when trying to understand humour.

    for the only reason being......in one post a person is serious, then immediately they become not serious.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    chadwick (and OnTheEdge),

    Quite frankly, chadwick, the more you go on about your little vigilante "fantasy in your head" (to use your own rather telling words!), the more I start to realise that the way you think is not so very different from that of the "garbage" you vilify.

    For all your many posts, you have added precisely nothing of worth to the debate.

    good morning to you, Sir.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • ed243421 wrote:
    i will never understand why they take the side of a murderer

    i'm just gonna go ahead and assume you havent been along for the whole ride. Maybe read up a bit before you jump to conclusions.

    I think that quote comes from quite a few pages back...

    Don't know why it's popping back up here when it's been responded to so many times that it's obsolete now.
    93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • chadwick wrote:
    chadwick (and OnTheEdge),

    Quite frankly, chadwick, the more you go on about your little vigilante "fantasy in your head" (to use your own rather telling words!), the more I start to realise that the way you think is not so very different from that of the "garbage" you vilify.

    For all your many posts, you have added precisely nothing of worth to the debate.

    good morning to you, Sir.

    Welcome back. Good to see you've been reading up.
    93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    perfect bumper stickers... ready?

    "death to scumbags"
    "molest a child get a shotgun slug to the chest"
    "rape & torture women and children, get a sword through the guts 13 times"

    what else?

    um...

    "cruel, evil bullshit is not to be tolerated"
    "child molesters should be hung until death"

    anyone else have any other good fun bumper sticker ideas?
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    chadwick wrote:
    chadwick (and OnTheEdge),

    Quite frankly, chadwick, the more you go on about your little vigilante "fantasy in your head" (to use your own rather telling words!), the more I start to realise that the way you think is not so very different from that of the "garbage" you vilify.

    For all your many posts, you have added precisely nothing of worth to the debate.

    good morning to you, Sir.

    Welcome back. Good to see you've been reading up.
    not all the longwinded posts get read in full
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • chadwick wrote:
    chadwick wrote:
    good morning to you, Sir.

    Welcome back. Good to see you've been reading up.
    not all the longwinded posts get read in full

    I can see that from your last post. More barbarity. Nice.
    93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    I can see that from your last post. More barbarity. Nice.

    believe this...

    i am a full on gentleman
    i love & am kind & gentle & harsh, a bit brash about somethings...

    when evil bullshit rises its useless head
    it is to be removed one way or another

    simple shit

    you can ask nicely... evil person please leave
    they should be smart and go...

    you can be nasty... dear evil monster, you hurt women and children
    you are a scumbag
    you would be better off without a pumping heart

    dear woman beater
    i like to fight
    wanna fight?

    see how simple it all is?
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    chadwick wrote:
    I can see that from your last post. More barbarity. Nice.

    believe this...

    i am a full on gentleman
    i love & am kind & gentle & harsh, a bit brash about somethings...

    when evil bullshit rises its useless head
    it is to be removed one way or another

    simple shit

    you can ask nicely... evil person please leave
    they should be smart and go...

    you can be nasty... dear evil monster, you hurt women and children
    you are a scumbag
    you would be better off without a pumping heart

    dear woman beater
    i like to fight
    wanna fight?

    see how simple it all is?

    :lol::lol::lol:

    Godfather.
  • chadwick wrote:
    I can see that from your last post. More barbarity. Nice.

    believe this...

    i am a full on gentleman
    i love & am kind & gentle & harsh, a bit brash about somethings...

    when evil bullshit rises its useless head
    it is to be removed one way or another

    simple shit

    you can ask nicely... evil person please leave
    they should be smart and go...

    you can be nasty... dear evil monster, you hurt women and children
    you are a scumbag
    you would be better off without a pumping heart

    dear woman beater
    i like to fight
    wanna fight?

    see how simple it all is?

    Or simple-minded?
    93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,497
    I could easily abandon my support of the death penalty if the risk to others was eliminated through the situation I described above.
    Just to put things in a little bit of context here: I know there was a list of examples of convicted murderers who reoffended a few pages back, that sparked quite a bit of hysteria. But it's important to note the fact that murder has the lowest rates of recidivism of any crime. There have been studies that have shown that over 70% of released thieves have commited further robberies, as compared to just over 1% of released murder convicts.

    Again, this supports the case for improving and reforming incarceration procedures, and really, really doesn't support the wholesale execution of murderers on the grounds that everyone is in danger as long as they're alive. That's simply not the case.

    Do those numbers show any of the injuries/fatalities caused by murderers while in jail?

    Also, I don't like that 1% because it is way more than it should be anyhow.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    chadwick wrote:
    I can see that from your last post. More barbarity. Nice.

    believe this...

    i am a full on gentleman
    i love & am kind & gentle & harsh, a bit brash about somethings...

    when evil bullshit rises its useless head
    it is to be removed one way or another

    simple shit

    you can ask nicely... evil person please leave
    they should be smart and go...

    you can be nasty... dear evil monster, you hurt women and children
    you are a scumbag
    you would be better off without a pumping heart

    dear woman beater
    i like to fight
    wanna fight?

    see how simple it all is?

    Or simple-minded?
    if you think that
    that's cool
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • Just to put things in a little bit of context here: I know there was a list of examples of convicted murderers who reoffended a few pages back, that sparked quite a bit of hysteria. But it's important to note the fact that murder has the lowest rates of recidivism of any crime. There have been studies that have shown that over 70% of released thieves have commited further robberies, as compared to just over 1% of released murder convicts.

    Again, this supports the case for improving and reforming incarceration procedures, and really, really doesn't support the wholesale execution of murderers on the grounds that everyone is in danger as long as they're alive. That's simply not the case.

    Do those numbers show any of the injuries/fatalities caused by murderers while in jail?
    No, it doesn't. I don't know if there are studies like that, though I would also be interested to see them. My hunch would be that they wouldn't vary wildly from that.
    Also, I don't like that 1% because it is way more than it should be anyhow.
    No, I don't like it either, but as both sides have pointed out, it's a flawed system. But it's hardly justification for killing all killers. Besides, it puts the hysteria that followed the list in a little more rational context.
    93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • chadwick wrote:
    chadwick wrote:
    believe this...

    i am a full on gentleman
    i love & am kind & gentle & harsh, a bit brash about somethings...

    when evil bullshit rises its useless head
    it is to be removed one way or another

    simple shit

    you can ask nicely... evil person please leave
    they should be smart and go...

    you can be nasty... dear evil monster, you hurt women and children
    you are a scumbag
    you would be better off without a pumping heart

    dear woman beater
    i like to fight
    wanna fight?

    see how simple it all is?

    Or simple-minded?
    if you think that
    that's cool

    I have stated what I think about the things you say. If you can't be bothered to read them, or don't want to, that's fine, I can't make you.
    Most of the time I think you're going to extremes just trying to provoke a reaction - I hope so.
    But I think the way you carry on is pretty childish, yes, and does you no favours. I think you do your position far more harm than good.
    There it is. My opinion. Take it or leave it. I expect you'll leave it.
    93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • gimmesometruth27gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Assuming that the death penalty was abolished completely in the US, how do yo guarantee the public the most dangerous never get out. It's obvious from another post that dangerous people have been released or escaped. Would you build a super max in a remote area? 24 hour lock down? Then the other question is when does an obvious dangerous person give up his rights.
    if the US can establish a maximum security facilty like Guantanamo to house prisoners who have never been charged and never been given a trial, one would assume that they could build something similar in the good old USA to house convicted murderers. yeah?

    this should go without saying, but leaving out the torture, sexual degradation and other revolting acts would be nice too.

    ok.

    thanks.

    So...can we put them in a cell and not let them out ever? Have a small hole for food...have a toilet and a sink to wash...and never open the door (unless the cell needs maintenance, in which case they are brought immediately to another cell)? No TV, no other prisoners, no freedom to roam, no outside time, no exercise equipment? Is that cruel and unusual punishment? Oh, and no suicide watch either. Don't kill them, but certainly don't care if they do it to themselves.

    I could easily abandon my support of the death penalty if the risk to others was eliminated through the situation I described above.
    all of what you have listed in your post has occurred in the united states, and still does to this day. remember the hole in alcatraz? how about you google Tamms, a supermax here in illinois that has been sued by inmates and is being investigated by human rights groups, and tell us how humanely those prisoners were treated. my former roomate worked as a guard there and he has a hundred stories of abuse he has personally witnessed. he was not named in the lawsuit, but may have to testify at any hearings or trial. so since that happens today, you can abandon your support for the dp then?
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • chadwickchadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    I have stated what I think about the things you say. If you can't be bothered to read them, or don't want to, that's fine, I can't make you.
    Most of the time I think you're going to extremes just trying to provoke a reaction - I hope so.
    But I think the way you carry on is pretty childish, yes, and does you no favours. I think you do your position far more harm than good.
    There it is. My opinion. Take it or leave it. I expect you'll leave it.
    you have an opinion
    oddly enough
    i also have an opinion

    my vote is to not cradle the worst of the worst
    the worst of the worst get fried

    also,
    i am sorry some of my comments are a bit graphic
    they are all true horrors that monsters have done
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • eyedclaareyedclaar Posts: 6,980
    I have learned that my views are often times dismissed as monstrous. I believe that humans are a plague, so if I have little use for most people, try to imagine how I feel about the true bastards in our midst. When I blame our species for the woeful condition and rapid deterioration of our planet, you’ll just have to forgive me for not placing the same emphasis on the importance of human life that some of you so clearly believe. Maybe it’s because I spend my time amongst the animals and have developed a far greater respect for their honesty, directness, and bravery in which they face life, pain, and death. A wolf pack wouldn’t tolerate anti-social behavior from one its own; they wouldn’t make excuses for brother who was once kicked in the head by a moose and since then has been biting family and acting crazy. You will say we are better than wolves, but that is something you will never convince me of, and I have all of human history on my side of the argument.
    Have any of you ever killed anything with your own hands that was mortally wounded? Ever seen that last flicker of life go out in something’s eyes? I have and I seem to have a whole different relationship with life and death than most people. Hell, cancer took my father when I was a child and it was the best thing that could have happened to my family. See, he wasn’t a good man, and although I know what demon made him that way, it didn’t change the damage he was doing. Cancer stopped him from doing any more.
    So, maybe your beliefs make you compassionate and wise. Maybe. Or, maybe they make you all too human, impractical, and without the will to do what is necessary. Not sure. All I can do is tell where I come from, and it’s a place most of you haven’t been.
    Idaho's Premier Outdoor Writer

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