now, naturally there's nothing wrong with being 'religious' BUT this branch of the jewish faith doesn't believe in a Palestinian state, they believe their god gave all that land to them.
are you saying some in the orthodox jewish community do not support colonization of the area??
That is exactly what I am saying. There are plenty of orthodox jews here that are left wing as far as politics goes and believe that the palestinans should have there own state. You are basing your comments on the writings of extremists that make up a minority (although a very vocal one) of that community.
so, you have nothing to say about the 2 articles i posted? one of a teacher at a school in an illegal settlement that says it is ok to murder babies or speak badly of israel, the other from an orthodox jew that says many orthodox jews are racist and bigots and are one of the biggest obstacle to peace?
of course it's not 100% across the board, stop trying to deflect from the point that MANY orthodox jews are racist bigots
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
I know once upon a time their was an annual free tibet concert, China still occupies Tibet, the Dalai Lama is still not home yet their is not global free tibet movement that generates the attention of the free gaza movement. Why is it that today Gaza garners more attention than Tibet?
Why have people not taken up the cause of the Kurds who have through colonial determing of boarders have been living divided from themselves dispered amongst five(?) nations often in the lower portion of society with nowhere to call home for themselves?
Cuba has been under blockade from the US for fifty years, is not collective punishment for voting the wrong way? (Or more accuratlly embracing a different style of economics and politics) Why don't people in Turkey or Ireland or anywhere else care more about that?
Lebanon has effectively been ruled by Syria for decades...where's the outrage?
When the IRA was terrorizing the U.K. was force not option to combat that? Were people outraged at the UK's right to defend itself?
Are people actively trying to help out in Chechnya against the will of Russia?
I'm pretty sure their are some Cypriots that think Turkey is occupying Cypress despite global recognition of its right to exist there. Is their not a slight double standard on the part of Turkey here?
Why when Israel builds a fence to protect its boarders from people that want to kill them (make no mistake that is the desired end goal) is it condemned, but when America builds a fence to keep out illegal immigrants and drugs (both of which play a huge role in Americas economy both good and buy), a blind eye is turned. Hypocracy? I dont know...
I think you're mistaken if you think criticism of Israel exceeds public recognition and outrage generated by these other issues. It's only really been since Israel's bombardment of Gaza in 2009 that the world has opened it's eyes to this issue. For the past 60 years there has been very little attention paid to it. 60 years is a long time to sit back and watch the brutalization of a people, and an ethnic cleansing, to take place. Either way, despite the recent attention paid to what's going on in Israel and the occupied territories what's changed? Nothing. The occupation continues, and the blockade of Gaza continues.
As for Tibet, Cuba, Chechnya, the Kurd's, e.t.c, I don't know why these causes haven't garnered much support. Maybe it's because the violence in these places has been few and far between. Maybe it's also because the oppresion and violence in these countries isn't directly supported and funded by our own governments and tax payers - the blockade of Cuba notwithstanding. When was the last time the U.S bombed the civilian population of Havana, and dropped white phosphorous on them?
Oh, and the fence built by Israel is illegal under international law. And it isn't being built to protect them from Palestinians wanting to kill them because if it was then it wouldn't be encircling Palestinian enclaves but would be running along the green line. It's not just keeping Palestinians out but it's enclosing them inside the borders of Israel. Simply put, it's just another tool in Israels ongoing land-grab.
Thats for answering/contributing, gave me some thinking points.
Dennis Kucinich's letter that he circulated to colleagues regarding the Mavi Marmara disgrace.
June 2, 2010
The Honorable Barack Obama
President of the United States
The White House
Washington, DC 20500
Dear Mr. President,
Israeli commandos, acting at the direction of the State of Israel, attacked and seized a Turkish ship in international waters, in the Mediterranean Sea.
At least nine were killed in the incident aboard the Mavi Marmara. Hundreds of civilians were taken into custody and goods were confiscated. Since the United States considers Israel our most important ally in the region, whose survival is a primary concern, it is incumbent upon the Commander in Chief to call Israel to an accounting for its conduct in planning and executing the deadly military attack in international waters upon a peaceful flotilla carrying citizens from over 50 countries.
The State of Israel's conduct, attacking a Turkish ship in international waters, constitutes an act of belligerence against Turkey, which at one time Israel considered an important ally. It also undermines United States’ troops efforts in Iraq, since your administration's efforts to achieve stability in the region and to withdraw troops from Iraq has depended upon Turkey's cooperation through use of its air bases.
In its violent commando raid on the Mavi Marmara, the government of Israel showed no concern as to how its conduct may affect the lives of defenseless, innocent people, its friends and allies, and in particular the United States. The United States must remind Israel as well as all of our other friends and allies:
It is not acceptable to repeatedly violate international law.
It is not acceptable to shoot and kill innocent civilians.
It is not acceptable to commit an act of aggression against another U.S. ally.
It is not acceptable to continue a blockade which denies humanitarian relief.
It is not acceptable to heighten tensions in a region while the United States continues to put so much blood and treasure on the line.
The State of Israel's action necessitates that the United States, which is Israel's partner in the region, begin to redefine its relationship and to establish such boundaries and conditions which are sufficient for mutual respect and cooperation.
It is incumbent upon Israeli officials to bring forth the truth about the planning for and the attack upon the Mavi Marmara.
No one questions the right of Israel to defend its border, but that defense does not extend to shooting innocent civilians anywhere in the world, anytime it pleases.
Israel must account for our support, for the lives of our soldiers, for the investment of billions from our taxpayers. Israel owes the United States more than reckless, pre-meditated violence waged against innocent people.
The attack on the Mavi Marmara requires consequences for the Netanyahu Administration and for the State of Israel. Those consequences must be dealt by the United States. They must be diplomatic and they must be financial. The U.S. can begin by calling for an independent international inquiry of the Mavi Marmara incident. The integrity of such inquiry necessitates that it not be led by the nation whose conduct is under scrutiny. If our nation fails to act in any substantive way, the United States licenses the violence and we are complicit in it and our own citizens will be forced to pay the consequences.
We the undersigned deeply regret the loss of life. We are also fully aware of the dangers to world security which exist in the region, which is why the United States has been unstinting it its defense of Israel. We have a right to expect that Israel not add to those dangers with military conduct which all people of good will know is neither defensible nor moral. There must be consequences for such conduct. We await your response.
BLITZER: A lot of people understand that and appreciate it. What they don't understand, there are some of the lists of prohibited items that Israel won't allow into Gaza. I'll give you an example. The economist reported things like ginger, nutmeg, canned fruit, dried fruit, fresh meats, seeds, and nuts and they go on, musical instruments, newspapers, wood for construction. Is that true that Israel won't allow these kinds of materials into Gaza?
OREN: The important thing here is that Gaza is getting all these materials through other means, through tunnels under the Egyptian border. We assure that there is no shortage of food or medicine in Gaza. We have 100 trucks a day, at least, going over our border, carrying food and medicine. There's no shortage of either of these things.
BLITZER: But are these things prohibited from going through?
OREN: You know, Wolf, I don't have a list in front of me. I hear also things from Hamas and Gaza, from the free Gaza movement. The fact of the matter is our commitment is to assuring this food and humanitarian aid, you know -- Gaza strip is a hostile entity to us, and I don't see where the United States during World War II felt a great need to supply, you know, chocolate to the German people, either.
BLITZER: What do you think of this European Union proposal that they would take over inspecting these ships going into Gaza. They would make sure there's no security threat to Israel. No weapons or missiles or rockets or missions (ph) or anything like that. They would do the job, and Israel would no longer have to deal with these ships coming, and the EU would check the ships?
OREN: Wolf, we're open to suggestions that would help facilitate the blockade better. We had some bad experience with international supervision of rocket shipments to Hezbollah and Lebanon.
BLITZER: United Nations operation, but this would be an EU operation. Are you more comfortable with the EU taking charge?
OREN: Again, we'll be open to suggestions. Our past experience has been that in Lebanon in 2006, Hezbollah had 12,000 rockets. Now, it has 42,000 rockets. There were European observers along the Gaza border when Gaza border crossings were open. Hamas shot at them, and the Europeans ran away. Keep in mind, this is Hamas that fired 10,000 rockets into the state of Israel. It's the Hamas that has sworn to destroy the state of Israel.
BLITZER: Israel is going to have its own independent investigation of what happened with the flotilla the other day. Will you allow international observers to participate in your investigation?
OREN: The investigation will be an Israeli investigation. Israel is a democracy. It has the right and the duty to investigation itself, just as the United States investigates incidents that happened with American forces in Afghanistan and Iraq. But the Israeli government is considering some type of international component in that investigation.
BLITZER: You rejected a United Nations investigation. You won't cooperate with the United Nations as far as an investigation of the flotilla?
OREN: We're not going to have an international panel of journalists sitting in judgment on Israel's action that cannot possibly be a balanced panel. And, again, as a democracy, it's part of our sovereign right and duty to investigate ourselves.
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
OREN: Gaza strip is a hostile entity to us, and I don't see where the United States during World War II felt a great need to supply, you know, chocolate to the German people, either.
The United States also didn't turn Germany into a giant prison. The German economy was also self-sufficient, up to the end of the war.
OREN: Again, we'll be open to suggestions. Our past experience has been that in Lebanon in 2006, Hezbollah had 12,000 rockets. Now, it has 42,000 rockets. There were European observers along the Gaza border when Gaza border crossings were open. Hamas shot at them, and the Europeans ran away.
I'd like to see some proof of this. It sounds like bullshit to me.
OREN: We're not going to have an international panel of journalists sitting in judgment on Israel's action that cannot possibly be a balanced panel. And, again, as a democracy, it's part of our sovereign right and duty to investigate ourselves.
I wonder if North Korea will use this as a legal precedent the next time they decide to sink a South Korean Naval Vessel?
the one guy claims the commandos came on the boat shooting and they tazed an 83 year old man
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
yes because shooting in the back implies that the victim was running away from the person with the gun, or the victim was engaged with an enemy and an ally of that enemy snuck up behind them and shot them in the back or blew their face off via entrance wound from the back of the head. either way it is cowardace of the highest order, sponsored by the israeli military and government....
Why is this an act of cowardice in your opinion? If you saw a friend being attacked by several people and you wanted to help him, what would you do? Kindly walk up and tap one of them on the shoulder asking him politely to stop? If I was your friend I would hope you would do everything you can to get them off me.
Point blank shooting in the back of the head or the back.... enough said.
Don't try to find excuses. If these supposedly highly trained elite forces wished to disable a 'foe' by sneaking up on him whilst he is otherwised engaged, it is easily done for them without having to kill. Assuming that this is a scenario, which I'm not so sure about.
Murders. That's what these were. Not defense, murder.
Israel is not credible. An international enquiry is essential. Israel cannot be trusted with their own internal one.
This whole argument simply no longer makes sense. A 9mm round means that the shots were fired from a sidearm. As Rafie has repeatedly stated clearly, and as you can see in the video, the soldiers who boarded the ship were carrying paintball guns as their primary weapons, and evidently were also armed with personal sidearms. If you just think rationally for a second, if the commandos had intended to board the ships and start killing people why would they have the paintball guns rather than rifles with live ammo? The use of sidearms is a pretty clear indication that the soldiers felt themselves to be in danger when they resorted to live ammunition.
As for people being shot at close range and in the back, what do you expect? This wasn't the Napoleonic wars, with soldiers marching up to each other in the middle of open fields. This was a full on melee on the deck of a ship in the pitch black. You have commandos who perceive their lives to be in danger, surrounded on all sides by assailants. I've never been in combat, but I've spoken with friends who have been. They invariably talk about the fog of war, how in combat you very often only have a very sketchy idea of what is going on around you (and one would imagine that in the middle of this mess that would be all the more true). Seriously, what could anyone expect would happen in this situation? If you try to attack a commando, and the guy thinks that you mean to kill him, he's going to kill you on the spot. These guys don't joke around. We're talking about a situation which is quite literally kill or be killed. At the point where the soldiers felt their lives were at risk they did exactly what they were trained to do. They killed the people that they thought were aiming to kill them. It's a harsh thing to say, but frankly I have no sympathy for these guys. They knowingly provoked the Israelis (that was their stated aim after all), and then attacked armed commandos. What the hell did they think was going to happen?! Actions have consequences. As blunt and harsh as it is to say, if you don't want to get shot, you probably shouldn't try to beat a bunch of soldiers with a metal rod, or stab them with a freaking knife.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
This whole argument simply no longer makes sense. A 9mm round means that the shots were fired from a sidearm. As Rafie has repeatedly stated clearly, and as you can see in the video, the soldiers who boarded the ship were carrying paintball guns as their primary weapons, and evidently were also armed with personal sidearms. If you just think rationally for a second, if the commandos had intended to board the ships and start killing people why would they have the paintball guns rather than rifles with live ammo? The use of sidearms is a pretty clear indication that the soldiers felt themselves to be in danger when they resorted to live ammunition.
As for people being shot at close range and in the back, what do you expect? This wasn't the Napoleonic wars, with soldiers marching up to each other in the middle of open fields. This was a full on melee on the deck of a ship in the pitch black. You have commandos who perceive their lives to be in danger, surrounded on all sides by assailants. I've never been in combat, but I've spoken with friends who have been. They invariably talk about the fog of war, how in combat you very often only have a very sketchy idea of what is going on around you (and one would imagine that in the middle of this mess that would be all the more true). Seriously, what could anyone expect would happen in this situation? If you try to attack a commando, and the guy thinks that you mean to kill him, he's going to kill you on the spot. These guys don't joke around. We're talking about a situation which is quite literally kill or be killed. At the point where the soldiers felt their lives were at risk they did exactly what they were trained to do. They killed the people that they thought were aiming to kill them. It's a harsh thing to say, but frankly I have no sympathy for these guys. They knowingly provoked the Israelis (that was their stated aim after all), and then attacked armed commandos. What the hell did they think was going to happen?! Actions have consequences. As blunt and harsh as it is to say, if you don't want to get shot, you probably shouldn't try to beat a bunch of soldiers with a metal rod, or stab them with a freaking knife.
submachine guns like uzi's use 9mm rounds. even if it was a handgun one guy was shot twice in the legs, once in the back, once in the face and once in the back of the head from less than 1 1/2ft away, you don't feel that is a bit excessive? or tazering an 83 year old man? also, people aboard the flotilla, including a member of the israeli knesset, say the commandos started shooting before they got on the boat and as they boarded. some say they were hit with the but of an assault rifle.
a vessel in international waters flying the flag of a sovereign country, which is an ally and fellow member of NATO, had their communications and radar jammed and were forcibly boarded and taken over. how is that legal again? and how is the blockade legal again? collective punishment isn't legal.
how can you really justify that level of force over humanitarian aid??? i know israel is used to taking land that doesn't belong to them but are they taking over international waters now, too?
Post edited by Pepe Silvia on
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
yosi, why won't israel return the cameras and other items to the people of the flotilla?
why won't israel release the ENTIRE video of the operation instead of short <1 min videos making them seem like the poor victims (as the forcibly boarded an ally's boat in international waters)
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
I've never been in combat, but I've spoken with friends who have been. They invariably talk about the fog of war, how in combat you very often only have a very sketchy idea of what is going on around you (and one would imagine that in the middle of this mess that would be all the more true). Seriously, what could anyone expect would happen in this situation?
shooting someone in the legs twice, the back, the face and the back of the head from <1 1/2 feet (45cm) isn't the fog of war, it's murder. just the shots in the leg should be enough but standing right over someone and shooting them in the back of the head? i doubt they felt threatened or worried after also shooting him in the back and face he would spring up and shake it off
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
yosi, why won't israel return the cameras and other items to the people of the flotilla?
why won't israel release the ENTIRE video of the operation instead of short <1 min videos making them seem like the poor victims (as the forcibly boarded an ally's boat in international waters)
I'd also like to hear Yosi the expert answer these questions?
'In the long run, the oppressor is also a victim. In the short run (and so far, human history has consisted only of short runs), the victims, themselves desperate and tainted with the culture that oppresses them, turn on other victims.' - Howard Zinn
what i find to be the biggest irony in all this is that ... a blockade is supposed to impact the enemy (which in this particular case is supposed to be hamas) - but in this particular situation, the only people that are benefitting IS HAMAS ... so, not only are palestinians being deprived basic goods and forced to live an oppressed life - Israel is in fact making HAMAS a middle man ... the guy who gets a cut for basically doing nothing ...
I was watching an Irish comedian there a while back, fella called Tommy Tiernan, who brought up the whole Israel V Palestinean subject:
""Does Israel give a rat's arse about what anybody thinks of it anymore? Blowing up people left, right and centre, and then addressing the United Nations. Fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off. To the Palestinians: fuck off. You can't be living there. Fuck off to some place you don't come from. We applied for planning permission in the old Testament. It's just come through." Tommy Tiernan
I've never been in combat, but I've spoken with friends who have been. They invariably talk about the fog of war, how in combat you very often only have a very sketchy idea of what is going on around you (and one would imagine that in the middle of this mess that would be all the more true). Seriously, what could anyone expect would happen in this situation?
shooting someone in the legs twice, the back, the face and the back of the head from <1 1/2 feet (45cm) isn't the fog of war, it's murder. just the shots in the leg should be enough but standing right over someone and shooting them in the back of the head? i doubt they felt threatened or worried after also shooting him in the back and face he would spring up and shake it off
You're comments make so many assumptions about what happened that are based on nothing more than your knee-jerk reaction that everything is always Israel's fault. It's very easy to criticize from the safety of your desk, especially when you always begin from the uncritical assumption that the Israelis are forever and always in the wrong. All I'm saying is that I'm pretty sure that things looked very different to the soldiers who found themselves alone on a boat in the middle of the night, surrounded on all sides, being attacked by an armed mob. When you're fighting for your life, making split-second decisions, in the middle of a fucking pitched battle free for all you do what you have to do. If a mob of guys is coming at you with metal pipes and knives I'd imagine that you don't stand there calmly and make sure that you shoot people only once, because it's ok to shoot someone once, but four times is just too much god damn it! IF A MOB IS COMING AT YOU TO KILL YOU YOU'RE GOING TO SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER, ONCE YOU AREN'T IN DANGER OF HAVING YOUR HEAD BASHED IN, OR YOUR THROAT CUT.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
You're comments make so many assumptions about what happened that are based on nothing more than your knee-jerk reaction that everything is always Israel's fault. It's very easy to criticize from the safety of your desk, especially when you always begin from the uncritical assumption that the Israelis are forever and always in the wrong. All I'm saying is that I'm pretty sure that things looked very different to the soldiers who found themselves alone on a boat in the middle of the night, surrounded on all sides, being attacked by an armed mob. When you're fighting for your life, making split-second decisions, in the middle of a fucking pitched battle free for all you do what you have to do. If a mob of guys is coming at you with metal pipes and knives I'd imagine that you don't stand there calmly and make sure that you shoot people only once, because it's ok to shoot someone once, but four times is just too much god damn it! IF A MOB IS COMING AT YOU TO KILL YOU YOU'RE GOING TO SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER, ONCE YOU AREN'T IN DANGER OF HAVING YOUR HEAD BASHED IN, OR YOUR THROAT CUT.
dude ... you know i have respect for your opinions ... but this is clearly a bunch of BS ...
look at the FACTS that we all can agree on:
** Israel engaged the ship in the middle of the night under the cloak of darkness rapelling down from military helicopters with a highly trained and armed task force
** The boat contained not a single weapon other than sticks and knives
** The engagement of the Irish Aid boat was done in the day with boats without incident.
why the heck are they attacking an aid boat in the middle of the night for with like a swat team? ... it is clearly an act of aggression ... this is undeniable ... you don't come onboard a boat like that for peaceful reasons ... with such trained and armored personnel ... you can easily tame a crowd like that simply using tasers or pepper spray ...
you cannot justify the killing of 9 civilians carrying no firearms ... the outcome of this event is the outcome that was desired by this task force ... the same outcome that resulted in the loss of one eye to a peaceful protestor on the streets ... israel has shown it is capable of enacting violence above and beyond what is reasonable and it clearly showed it again ...
tired to say it..the order was shoot to kill.....AGAIN!!!!!!noone leave his external policy to a 22 years old soldier....the order was clear!!go on TURKISH leading ship..and shoot to kill....waters,night,attack first,boats,plastic chairs paintball talking is waste of time...
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
You're comments make so many assumptions about what happened that are based on nothing more than your knee-jerk reaction that everything is always Israel's fault. It's very easy to criticize from the safety of your desk, especially when you always begin from the uncritical assumption that the Israelis are forever and always in the wrong. All I'm saying is that I'm pretty sure that things looked very different to the soldiers who found themselves alone on a boat in the middle of the night, surrounded on all sides, being attacked by an armed mob. When you're fighting for your life, making split-second decisions, in the middle of a fucking pitched battle free for all you do what you have to do. If a mob of guys is coming at you with metal pipes and knives I'd imagine that you don't stand there calmly and make sure that you shoot people only once, because it's ok to shoot someone once, but four times is just too much god damn it! IF A MOB IS COMING AT YOU TO KILL YOU YOU'RE GOING TO SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER, ONCE YOU AREN'T IN DANGER OF HAVING YOUR HEAD BASHED IN, OR YOUR THROAT CUT.
dude ... you know i have respect for your opinions ... but this is clearly a bunch of BS ...
look at the FACTS that we all can agree on:
** Israel engaged the ship in the middle of the night under the cloak of darkness rapelling down from military helicopters with a highly trained and armed task force
** The boat contained not a single weapon other than sticks and knives
** The engagement of the Irish Aid boat was done in the day with boats without incident.
why the heck are they attacking an aid boat in the middle of the night for with like a swat team? ... it is clearly an act of aggression ... this is undeniable ... you don't come onboard a boat like that for peaceful reasons ... with such trained and armored personnel ... you can easily tame a crowd like that simply using tasers or pepper spray ...
you cannot justify the killing of 9 civilians carrying no firearms ... the outcome of this event is the outcome that was desired by this task force ... the same outcome that resulted in the loss of one eye to a peaceful protestor on the streets ... israel has shown it is capable of enacting violence above and beyond what is reasonable and it clearly showed it again ...
they did have tazers, they even tazed an 83 year old man.
i don't think saying 45cm (<1 1/2ft) being close is an assumption.
but maybe it's an assumption to think if someone gets shot in the legs twice and the back they will most likely not be standing. it may be an assumption if i shoot someone twice in the legs and once in the back they are most likely not a threat to me anymore, especially when the only weapon they may have had was a stick or a knife. and it may be an assumption that if i shot someone in the head pretty much point blank range there would be no need to shoot them in the back and legs. those may be assumptions but i think they're pretty reasonable ones.
those people didn't need to be shot but israel gets away with murdering and beating innocents on a routine basis so naturally things like this will happen.
also, you failed to answer my question:
yosi, why won't israel return the cameras and other items to the people of the flotilla?
why won't israel release the ENTIRE video of the operation instead of short <1 min videos making them seem like the poor victims (as the forcibly boarded an ally's boat in international waters)
what do they have to hide? do they not want us to see a member of the israeli knesset, a former career diplomat for nixon and reagan and other members of the flotilla are telling the truth when they say the commandos opened fire before even boarding the boat and all the needless violence at the hands of the israeli's?
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Pepe, I haven't answered your question because it's a stupid question. I'm not in the Israeli government. How the hell should I know?
Dimitri, I really respect you. You seem to be a good guy. But to say that the Israelis boarded the ship with orders to simply start killing people is outrageous, insulting, and irrational.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Pepe, I haven't answered your question because it's a stupid question. I'm not in the Israeli government. How the hell should I know?
Dimitri, I really respect you. You seem to be a good guy. But to say that the Israelis boarded the ship with orders to simply start killing people is outrageous, insulting, and irrational.
the rules of engegement in ships are simple.shoot warning from distance,,push water with big militery ships.they didnt do what they did all the times before.in october a ship was capture with guns ,going to hamas under the flag of peace and all was cool....that was the orders Yosi..thats the sad in the story..believe me,if was a Greek ship they will not have this orders..the turkish ship was the theme here..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
now, naturally there's nothing wrong with being 'religious' BUT this branch of the jewish faith doesn't believe in a Palestinian state, they believe their god gave all that land to them.
are you saying some in the orthodox jewish community do not support colonization of the area??
That is exactly what I am saying. There are plenty of orthodox jews here that are left wing as far as politics goes and believe that the palestinans should have there own state. You are basing your comments on the writings of extremists that make up a minority (although a very vocal one) of that community.
so, you have nothing to say about the 2 articles i posted? one of a teacher at a school in an illegal settlement that says it is ok to murder babies or speak badly of israel, the other from an orthodox jew that says many orthodox jews are racist and bigots and are one of the biggest obstacle to peace?
of course it's not 100% across the board, stop trying to deflect from the point that MANY orthodox jews are racist bigots
As I said above, the article you quoted is from an extremist in the fringe of that society.
As for bigotry, many secular people are racist bigots too no matter what religion they officially belong to.
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
Dimitri, how on earth do you KNOW what the soldiers' orders were? Do you have any evidence that they were ordered to kill people? And if those were the orders (I feel dirty just indulging in this insanity) why would they use pistols instead of rifles? And why even put soldiers on the ship? Why not just shoot people from the safety of the helicopters? And why, if the orders were to kill people, were only 9 people killed? We're talking about elite commandos, the equivalent of US Navy Seals. If these guys wanted to kill people they could have easily killed way more than 9 people?
Dimitri, these accusations you are making are divorced from reality, have no basis in fact or reason, and are provocative, incendiary, and insulting.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
if the orders were to kill people, were only 9 people killed? We're talking about elite commandos, the equivalent of US Navy Seals. If these guys wanted to kill people they could have easily killed way more than 9 people?
And by the same token if they wanted to take the ship without incident they could have done so easily using a variety of methods.
Dimitri, how on earth do you KNOW what the soldiers' orders were? Do you have any evidence that they were ordered to kill people? And if those were the orders (I feel dirty just indulging in this insanity) why would they use pistols instead of rifles? And why even put soldiers on the ship? Why not just shoot people from the safety of the helicopters? And why, if the orders were to kill people, were only 9 people killed? We're talking about elite commandos, the equivalent of US Navy Seals. If these guys wanted to kill people they could have easily killed way more than 9 people?
Dimitri, these accusations you are making are divorced from reality, have no basis in fact or reason, and are provocative, incendiary, and insulting.
what's insulting is that you are attempting to make it out like these elite commandos as you put it could not board a ship full of unarmed civilians without killing 9 of them ... again - for the umpteenth time because i know you have no reposnse to it ...
why attack a ship in the middle of the night from a helicopter if your intentions were peaceful!?? ... insinuating that these elite commandos were justified in killing these 9 civilians explains why many defenders of israel justify the disproportionate amount of civilian deaths of palestinians compared to israelis ...
Reuters cheats on footage to cast Israel in bad light.
They cropped out the knives in the video.
I don't even know why I'm posting this, but have at Byrnzie, you ignoramous.
didn't you just say in another post that you are just back from a ban? i guess it wasn't long enough. you clearly didn't learn anything by it. maybe you could have 5 or 6 posts before you start attacking people again. just a thought of course.
and as you appear concerned about the media reporting false information, i'm sure you have some views on a post i did a few days ago. you must have missed it, i don't see any comments from you.
here, i'll repost it for you.
see this picture? This is an Israeli propaganda photo and caption that appeared on the website of Israeli newspaper Haaretz.
let's see if you can spot what's wrong with it. no cookies for guessing. it's too easy.
There's a number of things not credible about this:
The Israeli assault took place in darkness. There is bright daylight coming through the window.
Who took the picture? The Israeli commandos supposedly being threatened with stabbing? It's a great picture!
Everyone behind the man with the knife looks quite calm and not as if they are under attack by the Israeli army.
People on the ship were ordered to wear life jackets before the Israeli attack and most were on the video feed. No one is in this picture.
How do they know he's a "left-wing activist"? He doesn't fit my stereotype of a left-wing activist. Did they take the time to interview him while he was supposedly trying to stab them?
Reality check: If this photo even comes from the ship it shows a man carrying a ceremonial dagger, perhaps in a demonstration of bravado in front of cameras and journalists. What it certainly wouldn't do is justify a military assault on the high seas and the murder and wounding of dozens of civilians on a humanitarian aid ship. After all, suppose they had lots of daggers on the ship, what were they going to do, sail to Gaza and "stab" Israel?
Pepe, I haven't answered your question because it's a stupid question. I'm not in the Israeli government. How the hell should I know?
when has you not being in the Israeli government ever stopped you from having an opinion about anything? you have been very opinionated about the attack on the Mavi Marmara so far, discussing in detail your views, even going so far as to state that you have no sympathy for the people that were killed.
so it should be reasonably easy for you to have an opinion on what pepe asked shouldnt it?
yosi, why won't israel return the cameras and other items to the people of the flotilla?
why won't israel release the ENTIRE video of the operation instead of short <1 min videos making them seem like the poor victims (as the forcibly boarded an ally's boat in international waters)
Dimitri, how on earth do you KNOW what the soldiers' orders were? Do you have any evidence that they were ordered to kill people? And if those were the orders (I feel dirty just indulging in this insanity).
Why? Are you now trying to pretend that the IDF doesn't have a long history of deliberately targeting civilians? Even IDF soldiers themselves have admitted they've been given shoot-to-kill orders against unarmed civilians in the past.
Comments
so, you have nothing to say about the 2 articles i posted? one of a teacher at a school in an illegal settlement that says it is ok to murder babies or speak badly of israel, the other from an orthodox jew that says many orthodox jews are racist and bigots and are one of the biggest obstacle to peace?
of course it's not 100% across the board, stop trying to deflect from the point that MANY orthodox jews are racist bigots
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Thats for answering/contributing, gave me some thinking points.
http://www.tu.tv/videos/feeling-the-hat ... -on-eve-of
Dennis Kucinich's letter that he circulated to colleagues regarding the Mavi Marmara disgrace.
June 2, 2010
The Honorable Barack Obama
President of the United States
The White House
Washington, DC 20500
Dear Mr. President,
Israeli commandos, acting at the direction of the State of Israel, attacked and seized a Turkish ship in international waters, in the Mediterranean Sea.
At least nine were killed in the incident aboard the Mavi Marmara. Hundreds of civilians were taken into custody and goods were confiscated. Since the United States considers Israel our most important ally in the region, whose survival is a primary concern, it is incumbent upon the Commander in Chief to call Israel to an accounting for its conduct in planning and executing the deadly military attack in international waters upon a peaceful flotilla carrying citizens from over 50 countries.
The State of Israel's conduct, attacking a Turkish ship in international waters, constitutes an act of belligerence against Turkey, which at one time Israel considered an important ally. It also undermines United States’ troops efforts in Iraq, since your administration's efforts to achieve stability in the region and to withdraw troops from Iraq has depended upon Turkey's cooperation through use of its air bases.
In its violent commando raid on the Mavi Marmara, the government of Israel showed no concern as to how its conduct may affect the lives of defenseless, innocent people, its friends and allies, and in particular the United States. The United States must remind Israel as well as all of our other friends and allies:
It is not acceptable to repeatedly violate international law.
It is not acceptable to shoot and kill innocent civilians.
It is not acceptable to commit an act of aggression against another U.S. ally.
It is not acceptable to continue a blockade which denies humanitarian relief.
It is not acceptable to heighten tensions in a region while the United States continues to put so much blood and treasure on the line.
The State of Israel's action necessitates that the United States, which is Israel's partner in the region, begin to redefine its relationship and to establish such boundaries and conditions which are sufficient for mutual respect and cooperation.
It is incumbent upon Israeli officials to bring forth the truth about the planning for and the attack upon the Mavi Marmara.
No one questions the right of Israel to defend its border, but that defense does not extend to shooting innocent civilians anywhere in the world, anytime it pleases.
Israel must account for our support, for the lives of our soldiers, for the investment of billions from our taxpayers. Israel owes the United States more than reckless, pre-meditated violence waged against innocent people.
The attack on the Mavi Marmara requires consequences for the Netanyahu Administration and for the State of Israel. Those consequences must be dealt by the United States. They must be diplomatic and they must be financial. The U.S. can begin by calling for an independent international inquiry of the Mavi Marmara incident. The integrity of such inquiry necessitates that it not be led by the nation whose conduct is under scrutiny. If our nation fails to act in any substantive way, the United States licenses the violence and we are complicit in it and our own citizens will be forced to pay the consequences.
We the undersigned deeply regret the loss of life. We are also fully aware of the dangers to world security which exist in the region, which is why the United States has been unstinting it its defense of Israel. We have a right to expect that Israel not add to those dangers with military conduct which all people of good will know is neither defensible nor moral. There must be consequences for such conduct. We await your response.
Sincerely,
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... om.02.html
BLITZER: A lot of people understand that and appreciate it. What they don't understand, there are some of the lists of prohibited items that Israel won't allow into Gaza. I'll give you an example. The economist reported things like ginger, nutmeg, canned fruit, dried fruit, fresh meats, seeds, and nuts and they go on, musical instruments, newspapers, wood for construction. Is that true that Israel won't allow these kinds of materials into Gaza?
OREN: The important thing here is that Gaza is getting all these materials through other means, through tunnels under the Egyptian border. We assure that there is no shortage of food or medicine in Gaza. We have 100 trucks a day, at least, going over our border, carrying food and medicine. There's no shortage of either of these things.
BLITZER: But are these things prohibited from going through?
OREN: You know, Wolf, I don't have a list in front of me. I hear also things from Hamas and Gaza, from the free Gaza movement. The fact of the matter is our commitment is to assuring this food and humanitarian aid, you know -- Gaza strip is a hostile entity to us, and I don't see where the United States during World War II felt a great need to supply, you know, chocolate to the German people, either.
BLITZER: What do you think of this European Union proposal that they would take over inspecting these ships going into Gaza. They would make sure there's no security threat to Israel. No weapons or missiles or rockets or missions (ph) or anything like that. They would do the job, and Israel would no longer have to deal with these ships coming, and the EU would check the ships?
OREN: Wolf, we're open to suggestions that would help facilitate the blockade better. We had some bad experience with international supervision of rocket shipments to Hezbollah and Lebanon.
BLITZER: United Nations operation, but this would be an EU operation. Are you more comfortable with the EU taking charge?
OREN: Again, we'll be open to suggestions. Our past experience has been that in Lebanon in 2006, Hezbollah had 12,000 rockets. Now, it has 42,000 rockets. There were European observers along the Gaza border when Gaza border crossings were open. Hamas shot at them, and the Europeans ran away. Keep in mind, this is Hamas that fired 10,000 rockets into the state of Israel. It's the Hamas that has sworn to destroy the state of Israel.
BLITZER: Israel is going to have its own independent investigation of what happened with the flotilla the other day. Will you allow international observers to participate in your investigation?
OREN: The investigation will be an Israeli investigation. Israel is a democracy. It has the right and the duty to investigation itself, just as the United States investigates incidents that happened with American forces in Afghanistan and Iraq. But the Israeli government is considering some type of international component in that investigation.
BLITZER: You rejected a United Nations investigation. You won't cooperate with the United Nations as far as an investigation of the flotilla?
OREN: We're not going to have an international panel of journalists sitting in judgment on Israel's action that cannot possibly be a balanced panel. And, again, as a democracy, it's part of our sovereign right and duty to investigate ourselves.
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
The United States also didn't turn Germany into a giant prison. The German economy was also self-sufficient, up to the end of the war.
OREN: Again, we'll be open to suggestions. Our past experience has been that in Lebanon in 2006, Hezbollah had 12,000 rockets. Now, it has 42,000 rockets. There were European observers along the Gaza border when Gaza border crossings were open. Hamas shot at them, and the Europeans ran away.
I'd like to see some proof of this. It sounds like bullshit to me.
OREN: We're not going to have an international panel of journalists sitting in judgment on Israel's action that cannot possibly be a balanced panel. And, again, as a democracy, it's part of our sovereign right and duty to investigate ourselves.
I wonder if North Korea will use this as a legal precedent the next time they decide to sink a South Korean Naval Vessel?
here's a press conference with the scots that were aboard the flotilla
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziF7vV61GB8
the one guy claims the commandos came on the boat shooting and they tazed an 83 year old man
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
This whole argument simply no longer makes sense. A 9mm round means that the shots were fired from a sidearm. As Rafie has repeatedly stated clearly, and as you can see in the video, the soldiers who boarded the ship were carrying paintball guns as their primary weapons, and evidently were also armed with personal sidearms. If you just think rationally for a second, if the commandos had intended to board the ships and start killing people why would they have the paintball guns rather than rifles with live ammo? The use of sidearms is a pretty clear indication that the soldiers felt themselves to be in danger when they resorted to live ammunition.
As for people being shot at close range and in the back, what do you expect? This wasn't the Napoleonic wars, with soldiers marching up to each other in the middle of open fields. This was a full on melee on the deck of a ship in the pitch black. You have commandos who perceive their lives to be in danger, surrounded on all sides by assailants. I've never been in combat, but I've spoken with friends who have been. They invariably talk about the fog of war, how in combat you very often only have a very sketchy idea of what is going on around you (and one would imagine that in the middle of this mess that would be all the more true). Seriously, what could anyone expect would happen in this situation? If you try to attack a commando, and the guy thinks that you mean to kill him, he's going to kill you on the spot. These guys don't joke around. We're talking about a situation which is quite literally kill or be killed. At the point where the soldiers felt their lives were at risk they did exactly what they were trained to do. They killed the people that they thought were aiming to kill them. It's a harsh thing to say, but frankly I have no sympathy for these guys. They knowingly provoked the Israelis (that was their stated aim after all), and then attacked armed commandos. What the hell did they think was going to happen?! Actions have consequences. As blunt and harsh as it is to say, if you don't want to get shot, you probably shouldn't try to beat a bunch of soldiers with a metal rod, or stab them with a freaking knife.
submachine guns like uzi's use 9mm rounds. even if it was a handgun one guy was shot twice in the legs, once in the back, once in the face and once in the back of the head from less than 1 1/2ft away, you don't feel that is a bit excessive? or tazering an 83 year old man? also, people aboard the flotilla, including a member of the israeli knesset, say the commandos started shooting before they got on the boat and as they boarded. some say they were hit with the but of an assault rifle.
a vessel in international waters flying the flag of a sovereign country, which is an ally and fellow member of NATO, had their communications and radar jammed and were forcibly boarded and taken over. how is that legal again? and how is the blockade legal again? collective punishment isn't legal.
how can you really justify that level of force over humanitarian aid??? i know israel is used to taking land that doesn't belong to them but are they taking over international waters now, too?
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
why won't israel release the ENTIRE video of the operation instead of short <1 min videos making them seem like the poor victims (as the forcibly boarded an ally's boat in international waters)
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
shooting someone in the legs twice, the back, the face and the back of the head from <1 1/2 feet (45cm) isn't the fog of war, it's murder. just the shots in the leg should be enough but standing right over someone and shooting them in the back of the head? i doubt they felt threatened or worried after also shooting him in the back and face he would spring up and shake it off
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
I'd also like to hear Yosi the expert answer these questions?
""Does Israel give a rat's arse about what anybody thinks of it anymore? Blowing up people left, right and centre, and then addressing the United Nations. Fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off, fuck off. To the Palestinians: fuck off. You can't be living there. Fuck off to some place you don't come from. We applied for planning permission in the old Testament. It's just come through."
Tommy Tiernan
Couldn't have put it better myself
You're comments make so many assumptions about what happened that are based on nothing more than your knee-jerk reaction that everything is always Israel's fault. It's very easy to criticize from the safety of your desk, especially when you always begin from the uncritical assumption that the Israelis are forever and always in the wrong. All I'm saying is that I'm pretty sure that things looked very different to the soldiers who found themselves alone on a boat in the middle of the night, surrounded on all sides, being attacked by an armed mob. When you're fighting for your life, making split-second decisions, in the middle of a fucking pitched battle free for all you do what you have to do. If a mob of guys is coming at you with metal pipes and knives I'd imagine that you don't stand there calmly and make sure that you shoot people only once, because it's ok to shoot someone once, but four times is just too much god damn it! IF A MOB IS COMING AT YOU TO KILL YOU YOU'RE GOING TO SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER, ONCE YOU AREN'T IN DANGER OF HAVING YOUR HEAD BASHED IN, OR YOUR THROAT CUT.
dude ... you know i have respect for your opinions ... but this is clearly a bunch of BS ...
look at the FACTS that we all can agree on:
** Israel engaged the ship in the middle of the night under the cloak of darkness rapelling down from military helicopters with a highly trained and armed task force
** The boat contained not a single weapon other than sticks and knives
** The engagement of the Irish Aid boat was done in the day with boats without incident.
why the heck are they attacking an aid boat in the middle of the night for with like a swat team? ... it is clearly an act of aggression ... this is undeniable ... you don't come onboard a boat like that for peaceful reasons ... with such trained and armored personnel ... you can easily tame a crowd like that simply using tasers or pepper spray ...
you cannot justify the killing of 9 civilians carrying no firearms ... the outcome of this event is the outcome that was desired by this task force ... the same outcome that resulted in the loss of one eye to a peaceful protestor on the streets ... israel has shown it is capable of enacting violence above and beyond what is reasonable and it clearly showed it again ...
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
they did have tazers, they even tazed an 83 year old man.
i don't think saying 45cm (<1 1/2ft) being close is an assumption.
but maybe it's an assumption to think if someone gets shot in the legs twice and the back they will most likely not be standing. it may be an assumption if i shoot someone twice in the legs and once in the back they are most likely not a threat to me anymore, especially when the only weapon they may have had was a stick or a knife. and it may be an assumption that if i shot someone in the head pretty much point blank range there would be no need to shoot them in the back and legs. those may be assumptions but i think they're pretty reasonable ones.
those people didn't need to be shot but israel gets away with murdering and beating innocents on a routine basis so naturally things like this will happen.
also, you failed to answer my question:
yosi, why won't israel return the cameras and other items to the people of the flotilla?
why won't israel release the ENTIRE video of the operation instead of short <1 min videos making them seem like the poor victims (as the forcibly boarded an ally's boat in international waters)
what do they have to hide? do they not want us to see a member of the israeli knesset, a former career diplomat for nixon and reagan and other members of the flotilla are telling the truth when they say the commandos opened fire before even boarding the boat and all the needless violence at the hands of the israeli's?
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Dimitri, I really respect you. You seem to be a good guy. But to say that the Israelis boarded the ship with orders to simply start killing people is outrageous, insulting, and irrational.
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Reuters cheats on footage to cast Israel in bad light.
They cropped out the knives in the video.
I don't even know why I'm posting this, but have at Byrnzie, you ignoramous.
ABSOLUTELY!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
As I said above, the article you quoted is from an extremist in the fringe of that society.
As for bigotry, many secular people are racist bigots too no matter what religion they officially belong to.
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
Dimitri, these accusations you are making are divorced from reality, have no basis in fact or reason, and are provocative, incendiary, and insulting.
And by the same token if they wanted to take the ship without incident they could have done so easily using a variety of methods.
what's insulting is that you are attempting to make it out like these elite commandos as you put it could not board a ship full of unarmed civilians without killing 9 of them ... again - for the umpteenth time because i know you have no reposnse to it ...
why attack a ship in the middle of the night from a helicopter if your intentions were peaceful!?? ... insinuating that these elite commandos were justified in killing these 9 civilians explains why many defenders of israel justify the disproportionate amount of civilian deaths of palestinians compared to israelis ...
and as you appear concerned about the media reporting false information, i'm sure you have some views on a post i did a few days ago. you must have missed it, i don't see any comments from you.
here, i'll repost it for you.
see this picture? This is an Israeli propaganda photo and caption that appeared on the website of Israeli newspaper Haaretz.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... s-1.293089
let's see if you can spot what's wrong with it. no cookies for guessing. it's too easy.
There's a number of things not credible about this:
The Israeli assault took place in darkness. There is bright daylight coming through the window.
Who took the picture? The Israeli commandos supposedly being threatened with stabbing? It's a great picture!
Everyone behind the man with the knife looks quite calm and not as if they are under attack by the Israeli army.
People on the ship were ordered to wear life jackets before the Israeli attack and most were on the video feed. No one is in this picture.
How do they know he's a "left-wing activist"? He doesn't fit my stereotype of a left-wing activist. Did they take the time to interview him while he was supposedly trying to stab them?
Reality check: If this photo even comes from the ship it shows a man carrying a ceremonial dagger, perhaps in a demonstration of bravado in front of cameras and journalists. What it certainly wouldn't do is justify a military assault on the high seas and the murder and wounding of dozens of civilians on a humanitarian aid ship. After all, suppose they had lots of daggers on the ship, what were they going to do, sail to Gaza and "stab" Israel?
-Ali Abunimah
so it should be reasonably easy for you to have an opinion on what pepe asked shouldnt it?
yosi, why won't israel return the cameras and other items to the people of the flotilla?
why won't israel release the ENTIRE video of the operation instead of short <1 min videos making them seem like the poor victims (as the forcibly boarded an ally's boat in international waters)
Why? Are you now trying to pretend that the IDF doesn't have a long history of deliberately targeting civilians? Even IDF soldiers themselves have admitted they've been given shoot-to-kill orders against unarmed civilians in the past.