Israel Attacks Aid Convoy - Many Deaths Reported

gimmesometruth27

redrock wrote:

rafie wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

yes because shooting in the back implies that the victim was running away from the person with the gun, or the victim was engaged with an enemy and an ally of that enemy snuck up behind them and shot them in the back or blew their face off via entrance wound from the back of the head. either way it is cowardace of the highest order, sponsored by the israeli military and government....

Why is this an act of cowardice in your opinion? If you saw a friend being attacked by several people and you wanted to help him, what would you do? Kindly walk up and tap one of them on the shoulder asking him politely to stop? If I was your friend I would hope you would do everything you can to get them off me.

Point blank shooting in the back of the head or the back.... enough said.

Don't try to find excuses. If these supposedly highly trained elite forces wished to disable a 'foe' by sneaking up on him whilst he is otherwised engaged, it is easily done for them without having to kill. Assuming that this is a scenario, which I'm not so sure about.

Murders. That's what these were. Not defense, murder.

Israel is not credible. An international enquiry is essential. Israel cannot be trusted with their own internal one.

these commandos are allegedly the most highly skilled in the world. they are taught things like head kicks and submission moves like choke holds and joint stress holds. instead of popping 4 caps into the back of someone's head from less than 45 cm why not perform a rear naked choke hold and make the man pass out for 5 minutes?? that is non lethal and is more than enough time to cuff someone and take them into custody legally...as a former MMA fighter, this is what i was taught, ask mirko cro cop, he will tell you that non lethal force is always better, and he was trained by the IDF...

OnTheEdge

Why don't authorities and news stations just come to this web site...........seeing how all of you have all the answers :roll:

Byrnzie

OnTheEdge wrote:

Why don't authorities and news stations just come to this web site...........seeing how all of you have all the answers :roll:

The discussions we've been having on this website are no different to hundreds, or thousands, of other websites where people are talking about this subject.

I don't really understand your point. Are you suggesting that we have no right to voice an opinion?

OnTheEdge

Byrnzie wrote:

OnTheEdge wrote:

Why don't authorities and news stations just come to this web site...........seeing how all of you have all the answers :roll:

The discussions we've been having on this website are no different to hundreds, or thousands, of other websites where people are talking about this subject.

I don't really understand your point. Are you suggesting that we have no right to voice an opinion?

Sorry, all the name calling just got under my skin I guess. you know, people that believe they are perfect and have all the answers so they start throwing names around to make their point. Arogance is annoying.

OnTheEdge

Soooooo, these are the people all of you are trying to defend?????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRk16dGJPaQ

Why is it that Israel is not allowed to defend themselves without ridicule?

Digital Twilight

OnTheEdge wrote:

Soooooo, these are the people all of you are trying to defend?????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRk16dGJPaQ

Why is it that Israel is not allowed to defend themselves without ridicule?

Oh dear.... :?

Where to begin?

rafie

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

these commandos are allegedly the most highly skilled in the world. they are taught things like head kicks and submission moves like choke holds and joint stress holds. instead of popping 4 caps into the back of someone's head from less than 45 cm why not perform a rear naked choke hold and make the man pass out for 5 minutes?? that is non lethal and is more than enough time to cuff someone and take them into custody legally...as a former MMA fighter, this is what i was taught, ask mirko cro cop, he will tell you that non lethal force is always better, and he was trained by the IDF...

When you are fighting on on one, than sure. This was not one on one fight - It was more like ten on one (the one being the soldier). Choke holds and the sort are kind of time consuming and do not really help if there are another 9 people continuing to attack.

Why do you all keep referring back to the shots being at close range? That is kind of an obsolete point. The entire conflict was close range. The people shot were wielding knives, metal bars and the such, so they were obviously very close to the soldiers. As for the number of shots, these soldiers are also trained to fire several precision shots in a very short time. Shooting 4 shots for them would be like shooting one to someone not trained (Not sure if I adequately explained my self in that last sentence. Hopefully you all will understand what I meant).

rebornFixer

Agreed. I don't understand how people expect these commandos to fight like someone out of a comic book. gimme, if you've trained in MMA you should know the effects of adrenaline and the like in the middle of a risky situation. MMA is a fairly safe sport, actually, because of rules and the one-on-one nature of the fights. And like I mentioned before, someone could get hit in the back with a bullet during a melee, but sure, its also possible that people got shot while running away. Were you guys there? OK then. This is why we need a formal investigation, and why maybe we should ease up on the speculation and babykiller-esque remarks about these concerned. I think we can all agree that an unbiased investigation is needed, and that anyone guilty of wanton slaughter should be punished accordingly.

rebornFixer

redrock wrote:

An international enquiry is essential. Israel cannot be trusted with their own internal one.

Agreed.

gimmesometruth27

rafie wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

these commandos are allegedly the most highly skilled in the world. they are taught things like head kicks and submission moves like choke holds and joint stress holds. instead of popping 4 caps into the back of someone's head from less than 45 cm why not perform a rear naked choke hold and make the man pass out for 5 minutes?? that is non lethal and is more than enough time to cuff someone and take them into custody legally...as a former MMA fighter, this is what i was taught, ask mirko cro cop, he will tell you that non lethal force is always better, and he was trained by the IDF...

When you are fighting on on one, than sure. This was not one on one fight - It was more like ten on one (the one being the soldier). Choke holds and the sort are kind of time consuming and do not really help if there are another 9 people continuing to attack.

Why do you all keep referring back to the shots being at close range? That is kind of an obsolete point. The entire conflict was close range. The people shot were wielding knives, metal bars and the such, so they were obviously very close to the soldiers. As for the number of shots, these soldiers are also trained to fire several precision shots in a very short time. Shooting 4 shots for them would be like shooting one to someone not trained (Not sure if I adequately explained my self in that last sentence. Hopefully you all will understand what I meant).

you have no fucking idea what you are talking about. if done properly you can choke someone out and have them submit in less than 5 seconds, or be asleep in less than 10. if you get it in deep, like a rear naked or a guillotine or an anaconda choke, you can immobilize someone immediately. which i am sure these commandos know how to do..you can not breathe at all. it feels like your eyeballs will pop out of their sockets and the veins on the side of your head will pop. you can not inhale of exhale nor can you scream or call for help because yout trachea, larynx, and the carotid arteries are completely occluded and your neck is wrenched either forward or severely to one side, which is worse because it paralyzes that particular side. sometimes your entire neck cracks and it makes your head feel like it will explode...basically you have a choice, either submit or go to sleep, and you have less time to decide than it takes to draw a pistol, aim it, and fire it 5 times.... most people in a real fight for their lives can only go to sleep because if done correctly their adrenaline is pumping, they have a heightened sense of what is going on, ie they are fighting for their life against some dude immediately in front or behind them, heartbeat is very rapid and strong so their arteries are very prominent, thus easy to compress, and one of their arms is involved in the choke hold and they can not use it signal submission or regain any sort of balance...i have been choked out like this several hundred times in training and in sparring where either i was preparing for a fight or i was helping someone else prepare for a fight.... the most i have ever lasted in one of these chokes is about 20 seconds and that was in a crappily applied guillotine or crappy arm triangle choke and i was very fresh, like a minute intothe fight or sparring session.....if you have never been in that postion you have no idea, therefore you can stop talking like the authority on the situation and you can stop being a fucking apologist because you are making yourself look like a fool...if this was not an effective technique, why on earth would elite military like the IDF spend any time teaching this and having the soldiers drill it to death in training??????

the shots being at close range is a very important part of the story. havent you ever seen one of these autposy shows on HBO? at a distance of 45 cm there are powder burns on the victims head. and it is very important when trying to prove intent. it makes a huge difference between a charge of murder in the first murder 2nd degree, manslaughter, and assault and battery....there are legal definitions for these and based on all of this, these commandos would be looking at murder one and either death or life in prison without parole...and in the psychology literature it states that a normal, sane human being, even with military training can not put a gun in someone's face or to the back of their head and pull the trigger. they profiled the man who killed dimebag darrell, who was killed by 5 bullets to the face, and it said you have to have an unbelievable amount of hatred to be able to calmly shoot someone in the face at close range. they are able to detatch from reality enough that they do not see the victim as a human being, only as something that they hate enough to completely destroy with multiple close range shots to the head...it is quite distressing to even think about...yet it happens all the time in our world, which is why some prosecuters consider these close up murders hate crimes because you have to have a lot of hate in you to be able to carry it out... so now that you have attempted to completely defend these murderous bastards, i will have no further dialogue with you. it is a waste of my time. go ahead and support these animals, and when justice is finally served, may there be enough fucking video evidence to prove to you that what these barbarians did was a crime, pure and simple...

gimmesometruth27

rebornFixer wrote:

Agreed. I don't understand how people expect these commandos to fight like someone out of a comic book. gimme, if you've trained in MMA you should know the effects of adrenaline and the like in the middle of a risky situation. MMA is a fairly safe sport, actually, because of rules and the one-on-one nature of the fights. And like I mentioned before, someone could get hit in the back with a bullet during a melee, but sure, its also possible that people got shot while running away. Were you guys there? OK then. This is why we need a formal investigation, and why maybe we should ease up on the speculation and babykiller-esque remarks about these concerned. I think we can all agree that an unbiased investigation is needed, and that anyone guilty of wanton slaughter should be punished accordingly.

the only reason mma is "a very safe sport" is because there are rules governing how the fights are carried out. there are sanctioning bodies, certified referrees, and banned holds and rules like no kicking a downed opponent, no knee strikes to the head of a downed opponent, no blows to the back of the head, no nut shots, no raking of the face or eye gouging, no fish hooks, no elbows or knees to the head of a downed man, gloves and mouthguards and protective cups MUST be worn, physicians and emergency personnel and ambulances must be on site, etc....none of these rules apply in a real fight. and these tactics are used by COPS every day. you ever watch a cop shake someone down on the side of the road or break up a bar fight??? and if these rules were not in place mma events would not be sanctioned in any of the 50 states, thus they would be underground and illegaland VERY dangerous. having been a fighter i can attest that the only thing that makes mma safe are these rules. i have seen people get their arms broken, jaws dislocated, noses broken, elbows dislocated, facial fractures, torn acls, torn rotator cuffs, etc, matt hughes's training facility and gym keeps my doctor's office in business with all of the shit those guys go through....most injuries occur in training and not inthe actual fights..so in the scheme of things mma is not as safe as what you think...

rebornFixer

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

the only reason mma is "a very safe sport" is because there are rules governing how the fights are carried out. there are sanctioning bodies, certified referrees, and banned holds and rules like no kicking a downed opponent, no knee strikes to the head of a downed opponent, no blows to the back of the head, no nut shots, no raking of the face or eye gouging, no fish hooks, no elbows or knees to the head of a downed man, gloves and mouthguards and protective cups MUST be worn, physicians and emergency personnel and ambulances must be on site, etc....none of these rules apply in a real fight. and these tactics are used by COPS every day. you ever watch a cop shake someone down on the side of the road or break up a bar fight??? and if these rules were not in place mma events would not be sanctioned in any of the 50 states, thus they would be underground and illegaland VERY dangerous. having been a fighter i can attest that the only thing that makes mma safe are these rules. i have seen people get their arms broken, jaws dislocated, noses broken, elbows dislocated, facial fractures, torn acls, torn rotator cuffs, etc, matt hughes's training facility and gym keeps my doctor's office in business with all of the shit those guys go through....most injuries occur in training and not inthe actual fights..so in the scheme of things mma is not as safe as what you think...

Fair enough, safe was a poor choice of words. You captured what I was getting at better: Its sanctioned

Pepe Silvia

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

redrock wrote:

Point blank shooting in the back of the head or the back.... enough said.

Don't try to find excuses. If these supposedly highly trained elite forces wished to disable a 'foe' by sneaking up on him whilst he is otherwised engaged, it is easily done for them without having to kill. Assuming that this is a scenario, which I'm not so sure about.

Murders. That's what these were. Not defense, murder.

Israel is not credible. An international enquiry is essential. Israel cannot be trusted with their own internal one.

these commandos are allegedly the most highly skilled in the world. they are taught things like head kicks and submission moves like choke holds and joint stress holds. instead of popping 4 caps into the back of someone's head from less than 45 cm why not perform a rear naked choke hold and make the man pass out for 5 minutes?? that is non lethal and is more than enough time to cuff someone and take them into custody legally...as a former MMA fighter, this is what i was taught, ask mirko cro cop, he will tell you that non lethal force is always better, and he was trained by the IDF...

i can't remember where i read it but i read an article that said the number of, i think, some branch of orthodox jews, had exploded in the IDF, there used to be under 10% of them making up the IDF but now a lot have becom officers and such in the IDF

now, naturally there's nothing wrong with being 'religious' BUT this branch of the jewish faith doesn't believe in a Palestinian state, they believe their god gave all that land to them.

so you got all these religious fanatics in an army that is brutally occupying a people and have pretty much total immunity to do whatever the fuck they want. they can shoot a clearly marked journalist holding a white flag and yelling "we're british journalists" in the head and nothing happens. they can commit war crimes and use white phosphorous and DIME weapons in civilians areas (and to burn down a storehouse with millions of $ worth of aid) and nothing happens. they can commit 2 massacres in the town of Qana in roughly 10 years and nothing happens. they can impose an illegal blockade with the stated goal being to starve the Palestinians into submission and nothing happens.

again, there's nothing wrong with having a set of religious beliefs but when you become a fanatic and are willing to kill, hurt or displace millions over it you are fucked in the head no matter what god you are doing this for

rafie

gimmesometruth, you again are talking as if this was a one on one fight. Granted, I have never had any advanced fighting training, but I assume it would be near impossible to pull off an efficient choke hold on some one, even if it only takes 10 seconds, when you have 5 - 8 other guys attacking you with metal poles and knives. Fact is there were way fewer soldiers on that deck than activists. If the numbers were evenly matched I am sure things would have turned out much differently. This is were I agree with you lot that the IDF definitely dropped the ball as far as intelligence went here.

Pepe Silvia wrote:

i can't remember where i read it but i read an article that said the number of, i think, some branch of orthodox jews, had exploded in the IDF, there used to be under 10% of them making up the IDF but now a lot have becom officers and such in the IDF

now, naturally there's nothing wrong with being 'religious' BUT this branch of the jewish faith doesn't believe in a Palestinian state, they believe their god gave all that land to them.

so you got all these religious fanatics in an army that is brutally occupying a people and have pretty much total immunity to do whatever the fuck they want. they can shoot a clearly marked journalist holding a white flag and yelling "we're british journalists" in the head and nothing happens. they can commit war crimes and use white phosphorous and DIME weapons in civilians areas (and to burn down a storehouse with millions of $ worth of aid) and nothing happens. they can commit 2 massacres in the town of Qana in roughly 10 years and nothing happens. they can impose an illegal blockade with the stated goal being to starve the Palestinians into submission and nothing happens.

again, there's nothing wrong with having a set of religious beliefs but when you become a fanatic and are willing to kill, hurt or displace millions over it you are fucked in the head no matter what god you are doing this for

This post is wrong on so many levels. How can you say such things and condemn an entire community of people you have never met. What makes you such an expert about the different sects of Judaism??? That would be like me saying that any Muslim who prays 5 times a day is connected to El-Quaida. You have finally managed to shock and appall me.

Pepe Silvia

rafie wrote:

gimmesometruth, you again are talking as if this was a one on one fight. Granted, I have never had any advanced fighting training, but I assume it would be near impossible to pull off an efficient choke hold on some one, even if it only takes 10 seconds, when you have 5 - 8 other guys attacking you with metal poles and knives. Fact is there were way fewer soldiers on that deck than activists. If the numbers were evenly matched I am sure things would have turned out much differently. This is were I agree with you lot that the IDF definitely dropped the ball as far as intelligence went here.

Pepe Silvia wrote:

i can't remember where i read it but i read an article that said the number of, i think, some branch of orthodox jews, had exploded in the IDF, there used to be under 10% of them making up the IDF but now a lot have becom officers and such in the IDF

now, naturally there's nothing wrong with being 'religious' BUT this branch of the jewish faith doesn't believe in a Palestinian state, they believe their god gave all that land to them.

so you got all these religious fanatics in an army that is brutally occupying a people and have pretty much total immunity to do whatever the fuck they want. they can shoot a clearly marked journalist holding a white flag and yelling "we're british journalists" in the head and nothing happens. they can commit war crimes and use white phosphorous and DIME weapons in civilians areas (and to burn down a storehouse with millions of $ worth of aid) and nothing happens. they can commit 2 massacres in the town of Qana in roughly 10 years and nothing happens. they can impose an illegal blockade with the stated goal being to starve the Palestinians into submission and nothing happens.

again, there's nothing wrong with having a set of religious beliefs but when you become a fanatic and are willing to kill, hurt or displace millions over it you are fucked in the head no matter what god you are doing this for

This post is wrong on so many levels. How can you say such things and condemn an entire community of people you have never met. What makes you such an expert about the different sects of Judaism??? That would be like me saying that any Muslim who prays 5 times a day is connected to El-Quaida. You have finally managed to shock and appall me.

did i say it was the entire community?? no, i didn't.

are you saying some in the orthodox jewish community do not support colonization of the area??

what about Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro of Yitzhar that wrote a book saying it was ok to kill kids or those that speak badly of the country? you don't think that's a bit wacky?

Jews have the right to kill non-Jews in just about any circumstance, according to Israeli news reports quoting Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro, the head of a Jewish religious school in the illegal settlement of Yitzhar, near Nablus.

"If we kill a gentile who has sinned or has violated one of the seven commandments… there is nothing wrong with the murder," Shapiro wrote, according to Hebrew-language Israeli newspaper Maariv on Monday.

n his new book, The King's Torah, Shapira, who heads the Od Yosef Chai yeshiva, justifies the slaying of "non-Jews who demand the land for themselves," and for, among other transgressions, "hostile blasphemy."

"Those who, by speech, weaken our sovereignty" – deserve to die, the book explains. "It is permissible... even if they are not responsible for the threatening situation."

Shapira's book includes a chapter entitled, "Intentional Harm to Innocent People." The book explains it is permissible to kill civilians in other nations if the population "helps a murderer of Jews... Any case in which the life of the civilian endangers Israel - it is allowed to kill a gentile."

He added, "Citizens [of the enemy nation] contribute to the war... So any citizen who supports the war or the fighters or expresses satisfaction with their deeds - the killing is permitted."

Even babies and children are fair targets, "if it is clear they will grow up to harm us," the rabbi wrote. "If hurting an evil leader's children will pressure him to stop acting maliciously - you can hurt them," the newspaper reported, quoting Shapira.

it is nothing like saying a muslim that prays 5 times a day is a member of al qaeda, a more apt compairson would be the wahabbi part of islam that preaches violence.

so get over yourself

Pepe Silvia

^ an interesting article i found written by an orthodox jew:

http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2010- ... ke-amends/

Jerry Haber: Where We Orthodox Jews Have Gone Wrong – And How We Can Make Amends

The main source of Jewish hatred and bigotry against Arabs today comes from the orthodox, and especially the modern orthodox… The Israeli religious Zionism that has produced the settler movement is unaffected by universal moral values.


Zionism, and US Tax Dollars, at Work: Orthodox American Jews, celebrating Jerusalem Day by taunting a Palestinian woman whose Sheikh-Jarrah house has been occupied by Jewish settlers (Photo: Ahmad Gharabli/Agence France-Presse)

To: The President of Yeshiva University, the Executive Vice President Emeritus of the Orthodox Union, and the Director of Public Publicity, Orthodox Union

Recognizing the Sin of Bigotry, and Eradicating It

Gentlemen, I address this to you because I know you personally and admire you greatly. I have been members of the same synagogue as you, and one of you has been my rabbi.

Perhaps you saw this picture in the Wall Street Journal blog online The caption that the world read was, “A Palestinian woman whose house has been occupied by Jewish settlers argued with Israelis who came to celebrate Jerusalem Day in the mainly Arab neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah, East Jerusalem, Wednesday.”
But you knew that the caption was wrong. You looked at those faces. You knew that the laughing faces were not of Israelis, but of modern orthodox Jewish youngsters from the US, probably in yeshiva for their gap year. You may have even recognized some of them. You may know some of their parents.

So my question to you is very simple. It is the same question that Rav Aharon Lichtenstein posed a quarter of a century ago, when some of the best and brightest of Israeli religious Zionists were arrested as members of the violent Jewish underground. It was a title of an op-ed that Rav Aharon wrote for Haaretz:
“Where have we gone wrong?”

I remember how impressed I was by the question — then. For I thought that, finally, an acknowledged leader of modern orthodoxy/religious Zionism recognized that deep hatred and racist attitudes towards the Arab had been allowed to fester in religious Zionist educational institutions. (Of course, racism and bigotry are not the exclusive properties of modern orthodoxy. But the “in-your-face confidence” of the group of hooligans in this picture has religious Zionism written all over it.)

At first I was exhilarated by Rav Aharon’s hakarat ha-het, his recognition of the sin and its vicious consequences, and of the need to correct it. But time passed, and nothing was done. Rav Aharon went back to his yeshiva, and every time some modern orthodox Jew stunned the world with his indefensible actions — Baruch Goldstein, Yigal Amir — we were witness to the same hand-wringing among the moderates, as well as the old defense mechanisms:”Who are you to criticize?” “We condemn their actions, but not their intentions.” “Look at the hatred and bigotry of Islamic Fundamentalists.”

So let me tell you why your children — not all, but enough of them to get you worried — will continue to be in pictures like the one above, or in movies like Max Blumenthal and Joseph Dana’s “Feeling the Hate in Jerusalem.” Let me tell you why the bigotry will range from the not-so-genteel Islam-bashers that you find in every shul nowadays (when you were growing up, who knew from Islam?) to the “glatt kosher, mehadrin” bigots and hate-filled thugs in the picture.

The main source of Jewish hatred and bigotry against Arabs today comes from the orthodox, and especially the modern orthodox. This wasn’t always the case. The orthodoxy that sprung from European soil absorbed the best of West civilization, culture, and morality. The earlier generations of religious Zionists, Rav Reines, Rav Kook, Rav Soloveitchik, were European to the core. And the early generation of religious Zionists in America, though fed the prejudiced Zionist line about the Arabs, nevertheless was deeply influenced by liberal American values, and the American rejection of bigotry. Such moderates even convinced themselves that this was the message of the Torah.

No more. The Israeli religious Zionism that has produced the settler movement is unaffected by universal moral values. I don’t need to go into details here. You are familiar with their rabbis, you have read the articles and parsha sheets; you have recoiled at the message. Israeli religious Zionism today is insular, parochial, fundamentalist, and deeply, deeply bigoted. I know many American orthodox Jews who have come on aliyah, Jews with moderate principles, proud of American and universal moral values. They are terribly uncomfortable when their children return from the religious Zionist yeshivot and ulpanot as racist bigots who view the Arabs as animals and underlings, “hewers of wood and drawers of water.”

Modern orthodox educators in America should have worried less about the color of their children’s hats, and more about the color of their hearts. When they agonized over whether they would stay frum, they should have agonized over whether they would stay mentshen, humane individuals.

For modern orthodoxy to reduce the likelihood of more pictures like the one above, it should take the following steps:

1. Day schools should develop programs against prejudice, and I don’t mean just prejudice against Blacks and Hispanics, although that is important, too. I mean programs to counter bigotry against Arabs and Muslims. Appropriate sources can be found in Torah sources to give this a Jewish cast, and the illiberal sources can be explained away, as they were explained away by the 19th and 20th century European rabbis. One can start with Rav Abraham Kook’s view that the land of Israel can be sold to Muslims because they are not idolaters.

2. Schools should invite Palestinian refugees to speak to the students about their experiences. That would be a kiddush ha-Shem/sanctification of God’s name in its own right, and the educational value would be enormous. I am not saying that equal time must be given to Palestinian spokesmen on the conflict. This is not about politics. It is about humanity and decency. Oscar Hammerstein wrote, “You’ve got to be taught to hate,” but in a particularistic, religious atmosphere, and in the middle of a conflict, you have to be taught to respect. I realize that taking any time away from the curriculum for “tikun olam” is controversial, and trying to humanize Arabs will be even more so. After all, it is not as if when you look over your right shoulders, you see any less bigotry and racism. But choose not to, and you will have more pictures like the ones above. And what decent human frum Jew would want that?

3. American Muslims should come to the high schools and talk about their religion — or if that is too much for you, then find Jews, frum Jews, who will try to provide a positive portrait of Islam. It is easy to cherry-pick sources to portray another religion in an unflattering light. But that is where bigotry begins, and when it is “supported by the evidence” it gets harder to eradicate. Do to the Muslim sources what we do to the Jewish sources in day schools — accentuate the positive while explaining away the negative.

4. Modern orthodoxy sees the Rambam/Maimonides as one of its great models. Make it known to your students that Maimonides was Islamic civilization’s gift to the Jews. Without the Islamic environment, there could have never been a Rambam. The influence of the golden age of Islamic civilization is written on every page of his works, and I mean his legal works as well as his philosophical ones. And, as you know, it is not just Rambam.

5. Don’t romanticize the history of Jewish-Arab relations, but don’t demonize it, either. Yes there was Muslim discrimination against Jews, but it has been the bon ton of late to exaggerate it and to fail to understand the problems of any traditional religion dealing with other religions when it has political power. I wouldn’t want to be a Christian living in the Land of Israel under a Jewish king, according to Maimonides’ law that condemned them to death.

6. Always draw parallels from other people’s bigotry to our own. Bigotry and xenophobia are universal phenomena. The same Jews who are revolted by what others have done to them should feel the same revulsion when they do it against others. Show zero tolerance for such bigotry.

7. Most important, give the proper preparation and training for students going to Israel in their gap year, a year with little supervision and with exposure to deeply racist and bigoted attitudes – all in the name of Torah. If they come back from Israel not wanting to talk to girls, you get nervous that they have fallen off the deep end. But what of their attitudes towards gentiles, especially Arabs? Aren’t you worried about that?

It is not enough to ask, where have we gone wrong. We have to take steps to stamp this out. Liberals, conservatives, democrats, republicans – all of us should work to eradicate the central illness with frum Judaism today – hate-filled bigotry.

dimitrispearljam

the irish ship was on the way to Gaza is under israel forces now,no blood ,no shooting,nothing..there was another way..the violance they use was unnesesarty..they did it cos was turkish ship..
turkish prime minister organize new conwoy now..he will be on the ship this time and will be protect from turkish navy..now i want to see some balls

flywallyfly

dimitrispearljam wrote:

the irish ship was on the way to Gaza is under israel forces now,no blood ,no shooting,nothing..there was another way..the violance they use was unnesesarty..they did it cos was turkish ship..
turkish prime minister organize new conwoy now..he will be on the ship this time and will be protect from turkish navy..now i want to see some balls

That would be awesome -- is he really organizing a convoy?

dimitrispearljam

flywallyfly wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

the irish ship was on the way to Gaza is under israel forces now,no blood ,no shooting,nothing..there was another way..the violance they use was unnesesarty..they did it cos was turkish ship..
turkish prime minister organize new conwoy now..he will be on the ship this time and will be protect from turkish navy..now i want to see some balls

That would be awesome -- is he really organizing a convoy?

they say it here in the news that he is going to do it..
to tell u the truth,,not awesome..both israelians and Turks our countries not going back..i dont see this ending well..

badbrains

dimitrispearljam wrote:

the irish ship was on the way to Gaza is under israel forces now,no blood ,no shooting,nothing..there was another way..the violance they use was unnesesarty..they did it cos was turkish ship..
turkish prime minister organize new conwoy now..he will be on the ship this time and will be protect from turkish navy..now i want to see some balls

Oh man this shits gonna get crazy!!!