You're comments make so many assumptions about what happened that are based on nothing more than your knee-jerk reaction that everything is always Israel's fault. It's very easy to criticize from the safety of your desk, especially when you always begin from the uncritical assumption that the Israelis are forever and always in the wrong. All I'm saying is that I'm pretty sure that things looked very different to the soldiers who found themselves alone on a boat in the middle of the night, surrounded on all sides, being attacked by an armed mob. When you're fighting for your life, making split-second decisions, in the middle of a fucking pitched battle free for all you do what you have to do. If a mob of guys is coming at you with metal pipes and knives I'd imagine that you don't stand there calmly and make sure that you shoot people only once, because it's ok to shoot someone once, but four times is just too much god damn it! IF A MOB IS COMING AT YOU TO KILL YOU YOU'RE GOING TO SHOOT FIRST AND ASK QUESTIONS LATER, ONCE YOU AREN'T IN DANGER OF HAVING YOUR HEAD BASHED IN, OR YOUR THROAT CUT.
yosi, why won't israel return the cameras and other items to the people of the flotilla?
why won't israel release the ENTIRE video of the operation instead of short <1 min videos making them seem like the poor victims (as the forcibly boarded an ally's boat in international waters)
This from the AFP which more than suggests they have something to hide:
"Israel is set to accept a plan under which it would ease its Gaza blockade in return for the international community agreeing a limited probe into a deadly flotilla raid, it was reported Wednesday........
......Officials deny there is a link between their willingness to cooperate and matters related to the inquiry, the paper said."
The last bit made me smirk. Full and independent enquiry (obviously not by Israel) with no strings attached. That's what is needed.
This from the AFP which more than suggests they have something to hide:
"Israel is set to accept a plan under which it would ease its Gaza blockade in return for the international community agreeing a limited probe into a deadly flotilla raid, it was reported Wednesday........
......Officials deny there is a link between their willingness to cooperate and matters related to the inquiry, the paper said."
The last bit made me smirk. Full and independent enquiry (obviously not by Israel) with no strings attached. That's what is needed.
You forget that Israel is always the victim.
The Zionists dispossessed the Palestinians of 56% of their land in 1947, but Israel are the victims.
Israel seized the Golan Heights, the West Bank, and the Sinai during the 6 day war in 1967, but Israel are the victims.
Israel bombed the civilian population of Gaza in 2009 and killed over 1000 civilians, but Israel are the victims.
Israel stormed an aid convoy in international waters and killed 9 civilian aid workers, but Israel are the victims.
Not that I know of. Though there was one video leaked by the aid activists which the news media reported and chose to focus solely on the fact that it showed an injured IDF commando. Maybe that was it?
The Palestinian leadership declined the offer and opened war with the jewish population supported by the arab nations surrounding Israel in hopes of wiping out the jewish population in the area. Israel was founded during this war and in the peace treaty at the end of the war, the following borders were accepted:
Following the 1967 war, The borders drastically changed as Israel managed to take hold of Sinai, the Golan heights, Judea and Sumeria (the west bank) and the Gaza strip:
In following years, as part of peace treaties, Israel gave Sinai back to the Egyptians. Jordan on the other hand was not interested in getting the west bank back when peace was signed with Israel.
In talks with the Syrians, the question of the golan heights is one that comes up frequently.
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
Dimitri, how on earth do you KNOW what the soldiers' orders were? Do you have any evidence that they were ordered to kill people? And if those were the orders (I feel dirty just indulging in this insanity) why would they use pistols instead of rifles? And why even put soldiers on the ship? Why not just shoot people from the safety of the helicopters? And why, if the orders were to kill people, were only 9 people killed? We're talking about elite commandos, the equivalent of US Navy Seals. If these guys wanted to kill people they could have easily killed way more than 9 people?
Dimitri, these accusations you are making are divorced from reality, have no basis in fact or reason, and are provocative, incendiary, and insulting.
i m in military,know the rules of of attact to disarm a ship,i know the warning sidnals,i know when u shoot a man in the back, i know when u shoot a man in the head,
noone leave his policy to a 22 year old commandos..if commandos want to take a piss,they ask,they want to touch their nose ,they take orders..believe it..its so sad someone give this order...
sorry but i know..im not provoke,insult anyone by tell my opinion in something i know..you should know better that im not that person..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
The question asked for a factual response, not for my opinion. Since I am not privy to the thinking of the Israeli government, and I haven't read anything that would shed light on their thinking in this matter, I have nothing on which to base an opinion.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Dimitri, how on earth do you KNOW what the soldiers' orders were? Do you have any evidence that they were ordered to kill people? And if those were the orders (I feel dirty just indulging in this insanity) why would they use pistols instead of rifles? And why even put soldiers on the ship? Why not just shoot people from the safety of the helicopters? And why, if the orders were to kill people, were only 9 people killed? We're talking about elite commandos, the equivalent of US Navy Seals. If these guys wanted to kill people they could have easily killed way more than 9 people?
Dimitri, these accusations you are making are divorced from reality, have no basis in fact or reason, and are provocative, incendiary, and insulting.
i m in military,know the rules of of attact to disarm a ship,i know the warning sidnals,i know when u shoot a man in the back, i know when u shoot a man in the head,
noone leave his policy to a 22 year old commandos..if commandos want to take a piss,they ask,they want to touch their nose ,they take orders..believe it..its so sad someone give this order...
sorry but i know..im not provoke,insult anyone by tell my opinion in something i know..you should know better that im not that person..
Dimitri, as I'm sure you're aware, in a situation where a soldier feels his life to be in immediate danger from an assailant he is forced to act in his own defense, and may legitimately use deadly force. You are making the assumption that the soldiers were not under deadly attack when they resorted to live fire, and I fail to see what you are basing that assumption on. I am not denying that the IDF made tactical and strategic mistakes here. But I see no reason to think that these soldiers were given orders to board this ship and start killing people at random.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Yosi,sorry man,my opinion is this,they kill people in cold blood cos there order to do it..
i wasnt there,so my opinion is what i got..to read news from one side or the other is useless..its propaganda both sides.
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
i don't know that this is really the death of Furkan but you can clearly see in this video the commandos kicking and hitting someone on the ground and gee, what's that thing in the one's hands? that's an awfully big paint ball gun or pistol!
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
i don't know that this is really the death of Furkan but you can clearly see in this video the commandos kicking and hitting someone on the ground and gee, what's that thing in the one's hands? that's an awfully big paint ball gun or pistol!
Yosi... you call this self defense? Cold blooded murder.
I spoke with a couple of military people (still active and one in the special forces). They concur with Dimitris - the orders were shoot to kill, not disable. There was no intention of peaceful boarding.
i don't know that this is really the death of Furkan but you can clearly see in this video the commandos kicking and hitting someone on the ground and gee, what's that thing in the one's hands? that's an awfully big paint ball gun or pistol!
Yosi... you call this self defense? Cold blooded murder.
I spoke with a couple of military people (still active and one in the special forces). They concur with Dimitris - the orders were shoot to kill, not disable. There was no intention of peaceful boarding.
im tired to say it....shoot to kill,in Turkish ship...and only in this one,no one shoot in the other ships.
for me is so clear...no need to see any footage..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
The bullet holes in the 9 dead speak for themselves. Though footage like this debunks Israel's rhetoric of self defense.
Again, this shows the need for an independent inquiry (with the full cooperation/transparency from Israel) AND consequences! Not just a lil' slap on the hand for Israel to laugh off.
Again, this shows the need for an independent inquiry (with the full cooperation/transparency from Israel) AND consequences! Not just a lil' slap on the hand for Israel to laugh off.
Again, this shows the need for an independent inquiry (with the full cooperation/transparency from Israel) AND consequences! Not just a lil' slap on the hand for Israel to laugh off.
and thisz fuckin politics..i have some friends from israel,so great people,we will tour together,and are so peacefull,with so great feelings..and those politics with their acts put them in the spot that have to explain their bullshit..and not only in israel this happens..our Greek one are the same fuckers..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
This whole argument simply no longer makes sense. A 9mm round means that the shots were fired from a sidearm. As Rafie has repeatedly stated clearly, and as you can see in the video, the soldiers who boarded the ship were carrying paintball guns as their primary weapons, and evidently were also armed with personal sidearms. If you just think rationally for a second, if the commandos had intended to board the ships and start killing people why would they have the paintball guns rather than rifles with live ammo? The use of sidearms is a pretty clear indication that the soldiers felt themselves to be in danger when they resorted to live ammunition.
As for people being shot at close range and in the back, what do you expect? This wasn't the Napoleonic wars, with soldiers marching up to each other in the middle of open fields. This was a full on melee on the deck of a ship in the pitch black. You have commandos who perceive their lives to be in danger, surrounded on all sides by assailants. I've never been in combat, but I've spoken with friends who have been. They invariably talk about the fog of war, how in combat you very often only have a very sketchy idea of what is going on around you (and one would imagine that in the middle of this mess that would be all the more true). Seriously, what could anyone expect would happen in this situation? If you try to attack a commando, and the guy thinks that you mean to kill him, he's going to kill you on the spot. These guys don't joke around. We're talking about a situation which is quite literally kill or be killed. At the point where the soldiers felt their lives were at risk they did exactly what they were trained to do. They killed the people that they thought were aiming to kill them. It's a harsh thing to say, but frankly I have no sympathy for these guys. They knowingly provoked the Israelis (that was their stated aim after all), and then attacked armed commandos. What the hell did they think was going to happen?! Actions have consequences. As blunt and harsh as it is to say, if you don't want to get shot, you probably shouldn't try to beat a bunch of soldiers with a metal rod, or stab them with a freaking knife.
submachine guns like uzi's use 9mm rounds. even if it was a handgun one guy was shot twice in the legs, once in the back, once in the face and once in the back of the head from less than 1 1/2ft away, you don't feel that is a bit excessive? or tazering an 83 year old man? also, people aboard the flotilla, including a member of the israeli knesset, say the commandos started shooting before they got on the boat and as they boarded. some say they were hit with the but of an assault rifle.
a vessel in international waters flying the flag of a sovereign country, which is an ally and fellow member of NATO, had their communications and radar jammed and were forcibly boarded and taken over. how is that legal again? and how is the blockade legal again? collective punishment isn't legal.
how can you really justify that level of force over humanitarian aid??? i know israel is used to taking land that doesn't belong to them but are they taking over international waters now, too?
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
This whole argument simply no longer makes sense. A 9mm round means that the shots were fired from a sidearm. As Rafie has repeatedly stated clearly, and as you can see in the video, the soldiers who boarded the ship were carrying paintball guns as their primary weapons, and evidently were also armed with personal sidearms. If you just think rationally for a second, if the commandos had intended to board the ships and start killing people why would they have the paintball guns rather than rifles with live ammo? The use of sidearms is a pretty clear indication that the soldiers felt themselves to be in danger when they resorted to live ammunition.
As for people being shot at close range and in the back, what do you expect? This wasn't the Napoleonic wars, with soldiers marching up to each other in the middle of open fields. This was a full on melee on the deck of a ship in the pitch black. You have commandos who perceive their lives to be in danger, surrounded on all sides by assailants. I've never been in combat, but I've spoken with friends who have been. They invariably talk about the fog of war, how in combat you very often only have a very sketchy idea of what is going on around you (and one would imagine that in the middle of this mess that would be all the more true). Seriously, what could anyone expect would happen in this situation? If you try to attack a commando, and the guy thinks that you mean to kill him, he's going to kill you on the spot. These guys don't joke around. We're talking about a situation which is quite literally kill or be killed. At the point where the soldiers felt their lives were at risk they did exactly what they were trained to do. They killed the people that they thought were aiming to kill them. It's a harsh thing to say, but frankly I have no sympathy for these guys. They knowingly provoked the Israelis (that was their stated aim after all), and then attacked armed commandos. What the hell did they think was going to happen?! Actions have consequences. As blunt and harsh as it is to say, if you don't want to get shot, you probably shouldn't try to beat a bunch of soldiers with a metal rod, or stab them with a freaking knife.
submachine guns like uzi's use 9mm rounds. even if it was a handgun one guy was shot twice in the legs, once in the back, once in the face and once in the back of the head from less than 1 1/2ft away, you don't feel that is a bit excessive? or tazering an 83 year old man? also, people aboard the flotilla, including a member of the israeli knesset, say the commandos started shooting before they got on the boat and as they boarded. some say they were hit with the but of an assault rifle.
a vessel in international waters flying the flag of a sovereign country, which is an ally and fellow member of NATO, had their communications and radar jammed and were forcibly boarded and taken over. how is that legal again? and how is the blockade legal again? collective punishment isn't legal.
how can you really justify that level of force over humanitarian aid??? i know israel is used to taking land that doesn't belong to them but are they taking over international waters now, too?
Speaking as some one who actually has served in the Israeli army, shot an UZI and serves in reserve duty every year, I can tell you that there is one main problem with this theory. Despite the image that the UZI has around the world as the "ultimate machine gun", no infantry units in the IDF really use them, especially special forces. It is just not that good of a weapon and is very unreliable. I have seen the video footage posted here a while ago already and have no idea what weapon they are actually holding, but I am 99,9 percent sure that it is not an UZI
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
they are phasing them out in place of one of israel military industries newest weapons, which has been in use for a few years with certain units, the Tavor TAR-21 assault rifle which uses either a 5.56 or 9mm round depending on variant/options
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
This whole argument simply no longer makes sense. A 9mm round means that the shots were fired from a sidearm. As Rafie has repeatedly stated clearly, and as you can see in the video, the soldiers who boarded the ship were carrying paintball guns as their primary weapons, and evidently were also armed with personal sidearms. If you just think rationally for a second, if the commandos had intended to board the ships and start killing people why would they have the paintball guns rather than rifles with live ammo? The use of sidearms is a pretty clear indication that the soldiers felt themselves to be in danger when they resorted to live ammunition.
As for people being shot at close range and in the back, what do you expect? This wasn't the Napoleonic wars, with soldiers marching up to each other in the middle of open fields. This was a full on melee on the deck of a ship in the pitch black. You have commandos who perceive their lives to be in danger, surrounded on all sides by assailants. I've never been in combat, but I've spoken with friends who have been. They invariably talk about the fog of war, how in combat you very often only have a very sketchy idea of what is going on around you (and one would imagine that in the middle of this mess that would be all the more true). Seriously, what could anyone expect would happen in this situation? If you try to attack a commando, and the guy thinks that you mean to kill him, he's going to kill you on the spot. These guys don't joke around. We're talking about a situation which is quite literally kill or be killed. At the point where the soldiers felt their lives were at risk they did exactly what they were trained to do. They killed the people that they thought were aiming to kill them. It's a harsh thing to say, but frankly I have no sympathy for these guys. They knowingly provoked the Israelis (that was their stated aim after all), and then attacked armed commandos. What the hell did they think was going to happen?! Actions have consequences. As blunt and harsh as it is to say, if you don't want to get shot, you probably shouldn't try to beat a bunch of soldiers with a metal rod, or stab them with a freaking knife.
submachine guns like uzi's use 9mm rounds. even if it was a handgun one guy was shot twice in the legs, once in the back, once in the face and once in the back of the head from less than 1 1/2ft away, you don't feel that is a bit excessive? or tazering an 83 year old man? also, people aboard the flotilla, including a member of the israeli knesset, say the commandos started shooting before they got on the boat and as they boarded. some say they were hit with the but of an assault rifle.
a vessel in international waters flying the flag of a sovereign country, which is an ally and fellow member of NATO, had their communications and radar jammed and were forcibly boarded and taken over. how is that legal again? and how is the blockade legal again? collective punishment isn't legal.
how can you really justify that level of force over humanitarian aid??? i know israel is used to taking land that doesn't belong to them but are they taking over international waters now, too?
a problem with your logic yosi, lies in the fact that Israel, like always, was the aggressor here. the fog of war excuse as to why Israeli militants shot civilian protestor on a humantiarian mission in the back of the head is something that COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED, because they knew about the fog of war going in.
Shit anybody that plays video games knows about the fog of war. I'm sure israeli military leaders know about it. And knowing that and sending armed militants to assault civilian ships in the middle of the night was the most irresponsible foolish idea, (IF casualties were the concern) they could have come up with short of sinking the ships, knowing what a sitution like that entails.
If Israel gave a shit about human lives they would have simply approached these vessels in daylight, and spoken with leaders over the radio. Their approach shows how little they value human life (other peoples lives).
I certainly agree that Israel's leaders fucked up huge, and that tactically the whole thing should have gone down differently, or not at all. That said, I still think that the most plausible explanation for what happened is that the Israelis expected to take over the ship peacefully, as they had the other five ships in the convoy, found themselves under attack, and acted in self-defense. All the arguments I've seen people make contrary to this essentially rest on the assumption that Israel is some sort of blood thirsty monster state, and so clearly they set out to murder people.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
I certainly agree that Israel's leaders fucked up huge, and that tactically the whole thing should have gone down differently, or not at all. That said, I still think that the most plausible explanation for what happened is that the Israelis expected to take over the ship peacefully, as they had the other five ships in the convoy, found themselves under attack, and acted in self-defense. All the arguments I've seen people make contrary to this essentially rest on the assumption that Israel is some sort of blood thirsty monster state, and so clearly they set out to murder people.
this wasn't an all out assault on a civilian ship ... this was a targeted assasination attempt on specific activists ... mossad agents were on board ... the raid happened at night and the orders were to shoot to kill specific activists ...
evidence: video showing activist being shot while totally subdued; video showing targeted list of activists; missing passengers on the ship
and we know already that israel has no problems going into sovereign countries and assassinating people using doctored passports ...
Do you realize how paranoid you sound? Why would Israel want to assassinate a bunch of random activists? Why would they do it on a ship full of witnesses? Why am I even engaging seriously with crazed conspiracy theories?
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Ok, I'm sorry for insulting you. But I really do think you're being paranoid and indulging in conspiracy theories. I watched the video and I don't know what to make of it. Most of it is a blur, it's heavily edited, clearly has a strong editorial bias. I really don't think you can take that video as proof of anything, other than that somebody is handy at splicing together bits of assorted video footage.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
it's only a conspiracy theory because you refuse to open your mind and heart to the possibility that your gov't is engaged in PR campaign and is willing to do whatever it takes to win ...
you yourself have stated the mission was a disaster ... you want everyone to believe this was some poor planning on the israeli military side ... a military that is heavily trained and experienced ... there is only one reason to come in the middle of the night via helicopter and boats while jamming communications and seizing cameras and recording devices ...
you are calling me paranoid but yet you are the one that is chalking all the above up to some poor planning ...
Comments
Why don't you answer Pepe's question Yosi?
"Israel is set to accept a plan under which it would ease its Gaza blockade in return for the international community agreeing a limited probe into a deadly flotilla raid, it was reported Wednesday........
......Officials deny there is a link between their willingness to cooperate and matters related to the inquiry, the paper said."
The last bit made me smirk. Full and independent enquiry (obviously not by Israel) with no strings attached. That's what is needed.
You forget that Israel is always the victim.
The Zionists dispossessed the Palestinians of 56% of their land in 1947, but Israel are the victims.
Israel seized the Golan Heights, the West Bank, and the Sinai during the 6 day war in 1967, but Israel are the victims.
Israel bombed the civilian population of Gaza in 2009 and killed over 1000 civilians, but Israel are the victims.
Israel stormed an aid convoy in international waters and killed 9 civilian aid workers, but Israel are the victims.
Do you see a pattern here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10XphhuNupw
any word on the smuggled video?
Not that I know of. Though there was one video leaked by the aid activists which the news media reported and chose to focus solely on the fact that it showed an injured IDF commando. Maybe that was it?
How in your eyes is this even remotely historically accurate?
On the 29th of November 1947 the UN voted on a two state solution as follows:
http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyr ... J0d1q0.jpg
The Palestinian leadership declined the offer and opened war with the jewish population supported by the arab nations surrounding Israel in hopes of wiping out the jewish population in the area. Israel was founded during this war and in the peace treaty at the end of the war, the following borders were accepted:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/h ... warmap.JPG
The west bank ended up in Jordanian hands and the Gaza strip in Egyptian hands.
Following the 1967 war, The borders drastically changed as Israel managed to take hold of Sinai, the Golan heights, Judea and Sumeria (the west bank) and the Gaza strip:
http://www.historycentral.com/Israel/Is ... eLines.jpg
In following years, as part of peace treaties, Israel gave Sinai back to the Egyptians. Jordan on the other hand was not interested in getting the west bank back when peace was signed with Israel.
In talks with the Syrians, the question of the golan heights is one that comes up frequently.
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
noone leave his policy to a 22 year old commandos..if commandos want to take a piss,they ask,they want to touch their nose ,they take orders..believe it..its so sad someone give this order...
sorry but i know..im not provoke,insult anyone by tell my opinion in something i know..you should know better that im not that person..
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Dimitri, as I'm sure you're aware, in a situation where a soldier feels his life to be in immediate danger from an assailant he is forced to act in his own defense, and may legitimately use deadly force. You are making the assumption that the soldiers were not under deadly attack when they resorted to live fire, and I fail to see what you are basing that assumption on. I am not denying that the IDF made tactical and strategic mistakes here. But I see no reason to think that these soldiers were given orders to board this ship and start killing people at random.
i wasnt there,so my opinion is what i got..to read news from one side or the other is useless..its propaganda both sides.
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php ... 1268007355
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Wow Pepe.
Yosi... you call this self defense? Cold blooded murder.
I spoke with a couple of military people (still active and one in the special forces). They concur with Dimitris - the orders were shoot to kill, not disable. There was no intention of peaceful boarding.
for me is so clear...no need to see any footage..
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
The bullet holes in the 9 dead speak for themselves. Though footage like this debunks Israel's rhetoric of self defense.
Again, this shows the need for an independent inquiry (with the full cooperation/transparency from Israel) AND consequences! Not just a lil' slap on the hand for Israel to laugh off.
Sadly (and shamefully) I think you are right.
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
here is video of a commando holding an uzi with a suppressor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oll6Hh8D ... re=related
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Speaking as some one who actually has served in the Israeli army, shot an UZI and serves in reserve duty every year, I can tell you that there is one main problem with this theory. Despite the image that the UZI has around the world as the "ultimate machine gun", no infantry units in the IDF really use them, especially special forces. It is just not that good of a weapon and is very unreliable. I have seen the video footage posted here a while ago already and have no idea what weapon they are actually holding, but I am 99,9 percent sure that it is not an UZI
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
http://files.uzitalk.com/images/paraUzi.jpg
they are phasing them out in place of one of israel military industries newest weapons, which has been in use for a few years with certain units, the Tavor TAR-21 assault rifle which uses either a 5.56 or 9mm round depending on variant/options
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
a problem with your logic yosi, lies in the fact that Israel, like always, was the aggressor here. the fog of war excuse as to why Israeli militants shot civilian protestor on a humantiarian mission in the back of the head is something that COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED, because they knew about the fog of war going in.
Shit anybody that plays video games knows about the fog of war. I'm sure israeli military leaders know about it. And knowing that and sending armed militants to assault civilian ships in the middle of the night was the most irresponsible foolish idea, (IF casualties were the concern) they could have come up with short of sinking the ships, knowing what a sitution like that entails.
If Israel gave a shit about human lives they would have simply approached these vessels in daylight, and spoken with leaders over the radio. Their approach shows how little they value human life (other peoples lives).
this wasn't an all out assault on a civilian ship ... this was a targeted assasination attempt on specific activists ... mossad agents were on board ... the raid happened at night and the orders were to shoot to kill specific activists ...
evidence: video showing activist being shot while totally subdued; video showing targeted list of activists; missing passengers on the ship
and we know already that israel has no problems going into sovereign countries and assassinating people using doctored passports ...
seriously, quit with the name-calling tactics ... they only reinforce the fact you don't have actually anything to say ...
care to comment on some of the stuff in this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW2R4Iw5 ... r_embedded
you yourself have stated the mission was a disaster ... you want everyone to believe this was some poor planning on the israeli military side ... a military that is heavily trained and experienced ... there is only one reason to come in the middle of the night via helicopter and boats while jamming communications and seizing cameras and recording devices ...
you are calling me paranoid but yet you are the one that is chalking all the above up to some poor planning ...