yes because shooting in the back implies that the victim was running away from the person with the gun, or the victim was engaged with an enemy and an ally of that enemy snuck up behind them and shot them in the back or blew their face off via entrance wound from the back of the head. either way it is cowardace of the highest order, sponsored by the israeli military and government....
Why is this an act of cowardice in your opinion? If you saw a friend being attacked by several people and you wanted to help him, what would you do? Kindly walk up and tap one of them on the shoulder asking him politely to stop? If I was your friend I would hope you would do everything you can to get them off me.
Point blank shooting in the back of the head or the back.... enough said.
Don't try to find excuses. If these supposedly highly trained elite forces wished to disable a 'foe' by sneaking up on him whilst he is otherwised engaged, it is easily done for them without having to kill. Assuming that this is a scenario, which I'm not so sure about.
Murders. That's what these were. Not defense, murder.
Israel is not credible. An international enquiry is essential. Israel cannot be trusted with their own internal one.
these commandos are allegedly the most highly skilled in the world. they are taught things like head kicks and submission moves like choke holds and joint stress holds. instead of popping 4 caps into the back of someone's head from less than 45 cm why not perform a rear naked choke hold and make the man pass out for 5 minutes?? that is non lethal and is more than enough time to cuff someone and take them into custody legally...as a former MMA fighter, this is what i was taught, ask mirko cro cop, he will tell you that non lethal force is always better, and he was trained by the IDF...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Why don't authorities and news stations just come to this web site...........seeing how all of you have all the answers :roll:
The discussions we've been having on this website are no different to hundreds, or thousands, of other websites where people are talking about this subject.
I don't really understand your point. Are you suggesting that we have no right to voice an opinion?
Why don't authorities and news stations just come to this web site...........seeing how all of you have all the answers :roll:
The discussions we've been having on this website are no different to hundreds, or thousands, of other websites where people are talking about this subject.
I don't really understand your point. Are you suggesting that we have no right to voice an opinion?
Sorry, all the name calling just got under my skin I guess. you know, people that believe they are perfect and have all the answers so they start throwing names around to make their point. Arogance is annoying.
these commandos are allegedly the most highly skilled in the world. they are taught things like head kicks and submission moves like choke holds and joint stress holds. instead of popping 4 caps into the back of someone's head from less than 45 cm why not perform a rear naked choke hold and make the man pass out for 5 minutes?? that is non lethal and is more than enough time to cuff someone and take them into custody legally...as a former MMA fighter, this is what i was taught, ask mirko cro cop, he will tell you that non lethal force is always better, and he was trained by the IDF...
When you are fighting on on one, than sure. This was not one on one fight - It was more like ten on one (the one being the soldier). Choke holds and the sort are kind of time consuming and do not really help if there are another 9 people continuing to attack.
Why do you all keep referring back to the shots being at close range? That is kind of an obsolete point. The entire conflict was close range. The people shot were wielding knives, metal bars and the such, so they were obviously very close to the soldiers. As for the number of shots, these soldiers are also trained to fire several precision shots in a very short time. Shooting 4 shots for them would be like shooting one to someone not trained (Not sure if I adequately explained my self in that last sentence. Hopefully you all will understand what I meant).
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
Agreed. I don't understand how people expect these commandos to fight like someone out of a comic book. gimme, if you've trained in MMA you should know the effects of adrenaline and the like in the middle of a risky situation. MMA is a fairly safe sport, actually, because of rules and the one-on-one nature of the fights. And like I mentioned before, someone could get hit in the back with a bullet during a melee, but sure, its also possible that people got shot while running away. Were you guys there? OK then. This is why we need a formal investigation, and why maybe we should ease up on the speculation and babykiller-esque remarks about these concerned. I think we can all agree that an unbiased investigation is needed, and that anyone guilty of wanton slaughter should be punished accordingly.
these commandos are allegedly the most highly skilled in the world. they are taught things like head kicks and submission moves like choke holds and joint stress holds. instead of popping 4 caps into the back of someone's head from less than 45 cm why not perform a rear naked choke hold and make the man pass out for 5 minutes?? that is non lethal and is more than enough time to cuff someone and take them into custody legally...as a former MMA fighter, this is what i was taught, ask mirko cro cop, he will tell you that non lethal force is always better, and he was trained by the IDF...
When you are fighting on on one, than sure. This was not one on one fight - It was more like ten on one (the one being the soldier). Choke holds and the sort are kind of time consuming and do not really help if there are another 9 people continuing to attack.
Why do you all keep referring back to the shots being at close range? That is kind of an obsolete point. The entire conflict was close range. The people shot were wielding knives, metal bars and the such, so they were obviously very close to the soldiers. As for the number of shots, these soldiers are also trained to fire several precision shots in a very short time. Shooting 4 shots for them would be like shooting one to someone not trained (Not sure if I adequately explained my self in that last sentence. Hopefully you all will understand what I meant).
you have no fucking idea what you are talking about. if done properly you can choke someone out and have them submit in less than 5 seconds, or be asleep in less than 10. if you get it in deep, like a rear naked or a guillotine or an anaconda choke, you can immobilize someone immediately. which i am sure these commandos know how to do..you can not breathe at all. it feels like your eyeballs will pop out of their sockets and the veins on the side of your head will pop. you can not inhale of exhale nor can you scream or call for help because yout trachea, larynx, and the carotid arteries are completely occluded and your neck is wrenched either forward or severely to one side, which is worse because it paralyzes that particular side. sometimes your entire neck cracks and it makes your head feel like it will explode...basically you have a choice, either submit or go to sleep, and you have less time to decide than it takes to draw a pistol, aim it, and fire it 5 times.... most people in a real fight for their lives can only go to sleep because if done correctly their adrenaline is pumping, they have a heightened sense of what is going on, ie they are fighting for their life against some dude immediately in front or behind them, heartbeat is very rapid and strong so their arteries are very prominent, thus easy to compress, and one of their arms is involved in the choke hold and they can not use it signal submission or regain any sort of balance...i have been choked out like this several hundred times in training and in sparring where either i was preparing for a fight or i was helping someone else prepare for a fight.... the most i have ever lasted in one of these chokes is about 20 seconds and that was in a crappily applied guillotine or crappy arm triangle choke and i was very fresh, like a minute intothe fight or sparring session.....if you have never been in that postion you have no idea, therefore you can stop talking like the authority on the situation and you can stop being a fucking apologist because you are making yourself look like a fool...if this was not an effective technique, why on earth would elite military like the IDF spend any time teaching this and having the soldiers drill it to death in training??????
the shots being at close range is a very important part of the story. havent you ever seen one of these autposy shows on HBO? at a distance of 45 cm there are powder burns on the victims head. and it is very important when trying to prove intent. it makes a huge difference between a charge of murder in the first murder 2nd degree, manslaughter, and assault and battery....there are legal definitions for these and based on all of this, these commandos would be looking at murder one and either death or life in prison without parole...and in the psychology literature it states that a normal, sane human being, even with military training can not put a gun in someone's face or to the back of their head and pull the trigger. they profiled the man who killed dimebag darrell, who was killed by 5 bullets to the face, and it said you have to have an unbelievable amount of hatred to be able to calmly shoot someone in the face at close range. they are able to detatch from reality enough that they do not see the victim as a human being, only as something that they hate enough to completely destroy with multiple close range shots to the head...it is quite distressing to even think about...yet it happens all the time in our world, which is why some prosecuters consider these close up murders hate crimes because you have to have a lot of hate in you to be able to carry it out... so now that you have attempted to completely defend these murderous bastards, i will have no further dialogue with you. it is a waste of my time. go ahead and support these animals, and when justice is finally served, may there be enough fucking video evidence to prove to you that what these barbarians did was a crime, pure and simple...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Agreed. I don't understand how people expect these commandos to fight like someone out of a comic book. gimme, if you've trained in MMA you should know the effects of adrenaline and the like in the middle of a risky situation. MMA is a fairly safe sport, actually, because of rules and the one-on-one nature of the fights. And like I mentioned before, someone could get hit in the back with a bullet during a melee, but sure, its also possible that people got shot while running away. Were you guys there? OK then. This is why we need a formal investigation, and why maybe we should ease up on the speculation and babykiller-esque remarks about these concerned. I think we can all agree that an unbiased investigation is needed, and that anyone guilty of wanton slaughter should be punished accordingly.
the only reason mma is "a very safe sport" is because there are rules governing how the fights are carried out. there are sanctioning bodies, certified referrees, and banned holds and rules like no kicking a downed opponent, no knee strikes to the head of a downed opponent, no blows to the back of the head, no nut shots, no raking of the face or eye gouging, no fish hooks, no elbows or knees to the head of a downed man, gloves and mouthguards and protective cups MUST be worn, physicians and emergency personnel and ambulances must be on site, etc....none of these rules apply in a real fight. and these tactics are used by COPS every day. you ever watch a cop shake someone down on the side of the road or break up a bar fight??? and if these rules were not in place mma events would not be sanctioned in any of the 50 states, thus they would be underground and illegaland VERY dangerous. having been a fighter i can attest that the only thing that makes mma safe are these rules. i have seen people get their arms broken, jaws dislocated, noses broken, elbows dislocated, facial fractures, torn acls, torn rotator cuffs, etc, matt hughes's training facility and gym keeps my doctor's office in business with all of the shit those guys go through....most injuries occur in training and not inthe actual fights..so in the scheme of things mma is not as safe as what you think...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
the only reason mma is "a very safe sport" is because there are rules governing how the fights are carried out. there are sanctioning bodies, certified referrees, and banned holds and rules like no kicking a downed opponent, no knee strikes to the head of a downed opponent, no blows to the back of the head, no nut shots, no raking of the face or eye gouging, no fish hooks, no elbows or knees to the head of a downed man, gloves and mouthguards and protective cups MUST be worn, physicians and emergency personnel and ambulances must be on site, etc....none of these rules apply in a real fight. and these tactics are used by COPS every day. you ever watch a cop shake someone down on the side of the road or break up a bar fight??? and if these rules were not in place mma events would not be sanctioned in any of the 50 states, thus they would be underground and illegaland VERY dangerous. having been a fighter i can attest that the only thing that makes mma safe are these rules. i have seen people get their arms broken, jaws dislocated, noses broken, elbows dislocated, facial fractures, torn acls, torn rotator cuffs, etc, matt hughes's training facility and gym keeps my doctor's office in business with all of the shit those guys go through....most injuries occur in training and not inthe actual fights..so in the scheme of things mma is not as safe as what you think...
Fair enough, safe was a poor choice of words. You captured what I was getting at better: Its sanctioned
Point blank shooting in the back of the head or the back.... enough said.
Don't try to find excuses. If these supposedly highly trained elite forces wished to disable a 'foe' by sneaking up on him whilst he is otherwised engaged, it is easily done for them without having to kill. Assuming that this is a scenario, which I'm not so sure about.
Murders. That's what these were. Not defense, murder.
Israel is not credible. An international enquiry is essential. Israel cannot be trusted with their own internal one.
these commandos are allegedly the most highly skilled in the world. they are taught things like head kicks and submission moves like choke holds and joint stress holds. instead of popping 4 caps into the back of someone's head from less than 45 cm why not perform a rear naked choke hold and make the man pass out for 5 minutes?? that is non lethal and is more than enough time to cuff someone and take them into custody legally...as a former MMA fighter, this is what i was taught, ask mirko cro cop, he will tell you that non lethal force is always better, and he was trained by the IDF...
i can't remember where i read it but i read an article that said the number of, i think, some branch of orthodox jews, had exploded in the IDF, there used to be under 10% of them making up the IDF but now a lot have becom officers and such in the IDF
now, naturally there's nothing wrong with being 'religious' BUT this branch of the jewish faith doesn't believe in a Palestinian state, they believe their god gave all that land to them.
so you got all these religious fanatics in an army that is brutally occupying a people and have pretty much total immunity to do whatever the fuck they want. they can shoot a clearly marked journalist holding a white flag and yelling "we're british journalists" in the head and nothing happens. they can commit war crimes and use white phosphorous and DIME weapons in civilians areas (and to burn down a storehouse with millions of $ worth of aid) and nothing happens. they can commit 2 massacres in the town of Qana in roughly 10 years and nothing happens. they can impose an illegal blockade with the stated goal being to starve the Palestinians into submission and nothing happens.
again, there's nothing wrong with having a set of religious beliefs but when you become a fanatic and are willing to kill, hurt or displace millions over it you are fucked in the head no matter what god you are doing this for
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
gimmesometruth, you again are talking as if this was a one on one fight. Granted, I have never had any advanced fighting training, but I assume it would be near impossible to pull off an efficient choke hold on some one, even if it only takes 10 seconds, when you have 5 - 8 other guys attacking you with metal poles and knives. Fact is there were way fewer soldiers on that deck than activists. If the numbers were evenly matched I am sure things would have turned out much differently. This is were I agree with you lot that the IDF definitely dropped the ball as far as intelligence went here.
i can't remember where i read it but i read an article that said the number of, i think, some branch of orthodox jews, had exploded in the IDF, there used to be under 10% of them making up the IDF but now a lot have becom officers and such in the IDF
now, naturally there's nothing wrong with being 'religious' BUT this branch of the jewish faith doesn't believe in a Palestinian state, they believe their god gave all that land to them.
so you got all these religious fanatics in an army that is brutally occupying a people and have pretty much total immunity to do whatever the fuck they want. they can shoot a clearly marked journalist holding a white flag and yelling "we're british journalists" in the head and nothing happens. they can commit war crimes and use white phosphorous and DIME weapons in civilians areas (and to burn down a storehouse with millions of $ worth of aid) and nothing happens. they can commit 2 massacres in the town of Qana in roughly 10 years and nothing happens. they can impose an illegal blockade with the stated goal being to starve the Palestinians into submission and nothing happens.
again, there's nothing wrong with having a set of religious beliefs but when you become a fanatic and are willing to kill, hurt or displace millions over it you are fucked in the head no matter what god you are doing this for
This post is wrong on so many levels. How can you say such things and condemn an entire community of people you have never met. What makes you such an expert about the different sects of Judaism??? That would be like me saying that any Muslim who prays 5 times a day is connected to El-Quaida. You have finally managed to shock and appall me.
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
gimmesometruth, you again are talking as if this was a one on one fight. Granted, I have never had any advanced fighting training, but I assume it would be near impossible to pull off an efficient choke hold on some one, even if it only takes 10 seconds, when you have 5 - 8 other guys attacking you with metal poles and knives. Fact is there were way fewer soldiers on that deck than activists. If the numbers were evenly matched I am sure things would have turned out much differently. This is were I agree with you lot that the IDF definitely dropped the ball as far as intelligence went here.
i can't remember where i read it but i read an article that said the number of, i think, some branch of orthodox jews, had exploded in the IDF, there used to be under 10% of them making up the IDF but now a lot have becom officers and such in the IDF
now, naturally there's nothing wrong with being 'religious' BUT this branch of the jewish faith doesn't believe in a Palestinian state, they believe their god gave all that land to them.
so you got all these religious fanatics in an army that is brutally occupying a people and have pretty much total immunity to do whatever the fuck they want. they can shoot a clearly marked journalist holding a white flag and yelling "we're british journalists" in the head and nothing happens. they can commit war crimes and use white phosphorous and DIME weapons in civilians areas (and to burn down a storehouse with millions of $ worth of aid) and nothing happens. they can commit 2 massacres in the town of Qana in roughly 10 years and nothing happens. they can impose an illegal blockade with the stated goal being to starve the Palestinians into submission and nothing happens.
again, there's nothing wrong with having a set of religious beliefs but when you become a fanatic and are willing to kill, hurt or displace millions over it you are fucked in the head no matter what god you are doing this for
This post is wrong on so many levels. How can you say such things and condemn an entire community of people you have never met. What makes you such an expert about the different sects of Judaism??? That would be like me saying that any Muslim who prays 5 times a day is connected to El-Quaida. You have finally managed to shock and appall me.
did i say it was the entire community?? no, i didn't.
are you saying some in the orthodox jewish community do not support colonization of the area??
what about Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro of Yitzhar that wrote a book saying it was ok to kill kids or those that speak badly of the country? you don't think that's a bit wacky?
Jews have the right to kill non-Jews in just about any circumstance, according to Israeli news reports quoting Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro, the head of a Jewish religious school in the illegal settlement of Yitzhar, near Nablus.
"If we kill a gentile who has sinned or has violated one of the seven commandments… there is nothing wrong with the murder," Shapiro wrote, according to Hebrew-language Israeli newspaper Maariv on Monday.
n his new book, The King's Torah, Shapira, who heads the Od Yosef Chai yeshiva, justifies the slaying of "non-Jews who demand the land for themselves," and for, among other transgressions, "hostile blasphemy."
"Those who, by speech, weaken our sovereignty" – deserve to die, the book explains. "It is permissible... even if they are not responsible for the threatening situation."
Shapira's book includes a chapter entitled, "Intentional Harm to Innocent People." The book explains it is permissible to kill civilians in other nations if the population "helps a murderer of Jews... Any case in which the life of the civilian endangers Israel - it is allowed to kill a gentile."
He added, "Citizens [of the enemy nation] contribute to the war... So any citizen who supports the war or the fighters or expresses satisfaction with their deeds - the killing is permitted."
Even babies and children are fair targets, "if it is clear they will grow up to harm us," the rabbi wrote. "If hurting an evil leader's children will pressure him to stop acting maliciously - you can hurt them," the newspaper reported, quoting Shapira.
it is nothing like saying a muslim that prays 5 times a day is a member of al qaeda, a more apt compairson would be the wahabbi part of islam that preaches violence.
so get over yourself
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Jerry Haber: Where We Orthodox Jews Have Gone Wrong – And How We Can Make Amends
The main source of Jewish hatred and bigotry against Arabs today comes from the orthodox, and especially the modern orthodox… The Israeli religious Zionism that has produced the settler movement is unaffected by universal moral values.
Zionism, and US Tax Dollars, at Work: Orthodox American Jews, celebrating Jerusalem Day by taunting a Palestinian woman whose Sheikh-Jarrah house has been occupied by Jewish settlers (Photo: Ahmad Gharabli/Agence France-Presse)
To: The President of Yeshiva University, the Executive Vice President Emeritus of the Orthodox Union, and the Director of Public Publicity, Orthodox Union
Recognizing the Sin of Bigotry, and Eradicating It
Gentlemen, I address this to you because I know you personally and admire you greatly. I have been members of the same synagogue as you, and one of you has been my rabbi.
Perhaps you saw this picture in the Wall Street Journal blog online The caption that the world read was, “A Palestinian woman whose house has been occupied by Jewish settlers argued with Israelis who came to celebrate Jerusalem Day in the mainly Arab neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah, East Jerusalem, Wednesday.”
But you knew that the caption was wrong. You looked at those faces. You knew that the laughing faces were not of Israelis, but of modern orthodox Jewish youngsters from the US, probably in yeshiva for their gap year. You may have even recognized some of them. You may know some of their parents.
So my question to you is very simple. It is the same question that Rav Aharon Lichtenstein posed a quarter of a century ago, when some of the best and brightest of Israeli religious Zionists were arrested as members of the violent Jewish underground. It was a title of an op-ed that Rav Aharon wrote for Haaretz:
“Where have we gone wrong?”
I remember how impressed I was by the question — then. For I thought that, finally, an acknowledged leader of modern orthodoxy/religious Zionism recognized that deep hatred and racist attitudes towards the Arab had been allowed to fester in religious Zionist educational institutions. (Of course, racism and bigotry are not the exclusive properties of modern orthodoxy. But the “in-your-face confidence” of the group of hooligans in this picture has religious Zionism written all over it.)
At first I was exhilarated by Rav Aharon’s hakarat ha-het, his recognition of the sin and its vicious consequences, and of the need to correct it. But time passed, and nothing was done. Rav Aharon went back to his yeshiva, and every time some modern orthodox Jew stunned the world with his indefensible actions — Baruch Goldstein, Yigal Amir — we were witness to the same hand-wringing among the moderates, as well as the old defense mechanisms:”Who are you to criticize?” “We condemn their actions, but not their intentions.” “Look at the hatred and bigotry of Islamic Fundamentalists.”
So let me tell you why your children — not all, but enough of them to get you worried — will continue to be in pictures like the one above, or in movies like Max Blumenthal and Joseph Dana’s “Feeling the Hate in Jerusalem.” Let me tell you why the bigotry will range from the not-so-genteel Islam-bashers that you find in every shul nowadays (when you were growing up, who knew from Islam?) to the “glatt kosher, mehadrin” bigots and hate-filled thugs in the picture.
The main source of Jewish hatred and bigotry against Arabs today comes from the orthodox, and especially the modern orthodox. This wasn’t always the case. The orthodoxy that sprung from European soil absorbed the best of West civilization, culture, and morality. The earlier generations of religious Zionists, Rav Reines, Rav Kook, Rav Soloveitchik, were European to the core. And the early generation of religious Zionists in America, though fed the prejudiced Zionist line about the Arabs, nevertheless was deeply influenced by liberal American values, and the American rejection of bigotry. Such moderates even convinced themselves that this was the message of the Torah.
No more. The Israeli religious Zionism that has produced the settler movement is unaffected by universal moral values. I don’t need to go into details here. You are familiar with their rabbis, you have read the articles and parsha sheets; you have recoiled at the message. Israeli religious Zionism today is insular, parochial, fundamentalist, and deeply, deeply bigoted. I know many American orthodox Jews who have come on aliyah, Jews with moderate principles, proud of American and universal moral values. They are terribly uncomfortable when their children return from the religious Zionist yeshivot and ulpanot as racist bigots who view the Arabs as animals and underlings, “hewers of wood and drawers of water.”
Modern orthodox educators in America should have worried less about the color of their children’s hats, and more about the color of their hearts. When they agonized over whether they would stay frum, they should have agonized over whether they would stay mentshen, humane individuals.
For modern orthodoxy to reduce the likelihood of more pictures like the one above, it should take the following steps:
1. Day schools should develop programs against prejudice, and I don’t mean just prejudice against Blacks and Hispanics, although that is important, too. I mean programs to counter bigotry against Arabs and Muslims. Appropriate sources can be found in Torah sources to give this a Jewish cast, and the illiberal sources can be explained away, as they were explained away by the 19th and 20th century European rabbis. One can start with Rav Abraham Kook’s view that the land of Israel can be sold to Muslims because they are not idolaters.
2. Schools should invite Palestinian refugees to speak to the students about their experiences. That would be a kiddush ha-Shem/sanctification of God’s name in its own right, and the educational value would be enormous. I am not saying that equal time must be given to Palestinian spokesmen on the conflict. This is not about politics. It is about humanity and decency. Oscar Hammerstein wrote, “You’ve got to be taught to hate,” but in a particularistic, religious atmosphere, and in the middle of a conflict, you have to be taught to respect. I realize that taking any time away from the curriculum for “tikun olam” is controversial, and trying to humanize Arabs will be even more so. After all, it is not as if when you look over your right shoulders, you see any less bigotry and racism. But choose not to, and you will have more pictures like the ones above. And what decent human frum Jew would want that?
3. American Muslims should come to the high schools and talk about their religion — or if that is too much for you, then find Jews, frum Jews, who will try to provide a positive portrait of Islam. It is easy to cherry-pick sources to portray another religion in an unflattering light. But that is where bigotry begins, and when it is “supported by the evidence” it gets harder to eradicate. Do to the Muslim sources what we do to the Jewish sources in day schools — accentuate the positive while explaining away the negative.
4. Modern orthodoxy sees the Rambam/Maimonides as one of its great models. Make it known to your students that Maimonides was Islamic civilization’s gift to the Jews. Without the Islamic environment, there could have never been a Rambam. The influence of the golden age of Islamic civilization is written on every page of his works, and I mean his legal works as well as his philosophical ones. And, as you know, it is not just Rambam.
5. Don’t romanticize the history of Jewish-Arab relations, but don’t demonize it, either. Yes there was Muslim discrimination against Jews, but it has been the bon ton of late to exaggerate it and to fail to understand the problems of any traditional religion dealing with other religions when it has political power. I wouldn’t want to be a Christian living in the Land of Israel under a Jewish king, according to Maimonides’ law that condemned them to death.
6. Always draw parallels from other people’s bigotry to our own. Bigotry and xenophobia are universal phenomena. The same Jews who are revolted by what others have done to them should feel the same revulsion when they do it against others. Show zero tolerance for such bigotry.
7. Most important, give the proper preparation and training for students going to Israel in their gap year, a year with little supervision and with exposure to deeply racist and bigoted attitudes – all in the name of Torah. If they come back from Israel not wanting to talk to girls, you get nervous that they have fallen off the deep end. But what of their attitudes towards gentiles, especially Arabs? Aren’t you worried about that?
It is not enough to ask, where have we gone wrong. We have to take steps to stamp this out. Liberals, conservatives, democrats, republicans – all of us should work to eradicate the central illness with frum Judaism today – hate-filled bigotry.
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
the irish ship was on the way to Gaza is under israel forces now,no blood ,no shooting,nothing..there was another way..the violance they use was unnesesarty..they did it cos was turkish ship..
turkish prime minister organize new conwoy now..he will be on the ship this time and will be protect from turkish navy..now i want to see some balls
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
the irish ship was on the way to Gaza is under israel forces now,no blood ,no shooting,nothing..there was another way..the violance they use was unnesesarty..they did it cos was turkish ship..
turkish prime minister organize new conwoy now..he will be on the ship this time and will be protect from turkish navy..now i want to see some balls
That would be awesome -- is he really organizing a convoy?
the irish ship was on the way to Gaza is under israel forces now,no blood ,no shooting,nothing..there was another way..the violance they use was unnesesarty..they did it cos was turkish ship..
turkish prime minister organize new conwoy now..he will be on the ship this time and will be protect from turkish navy..now i want to see some balls
That would be awesome -- is he really organizing a convoy?
they say it here in the news that he is going to do it..
to tell u the truth,,not awesome..both israelians and Turks our countries not going back..i dont see this ending well..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
the irish ship was on the way to Gaza is under israel forces now,no blood ,no shooting,nothing..there was another way..the violance they use was unnesesarty..they did it cos was turkish ship..
turkish prime minister organize new conwoy now..he will be on the ship this time and will be protect from turkish navy..now i want to see some balls
I'm young, and generally try to avoid a concrete opinion on these types of topics cause quite frankly I do not trust any of these opinions/viewpoints/ or news story. None are objective,and ALL are written to lead you to a specific conclusion. Best you can do is inform yourself of as much as possible and try to hope something in it is real. In that same vain I have some questions...
I know once upon a time their was an annual free tibet concert, China still occupies Tibet, the Dalai Lama is still not home yet their is not global free tibet movement that generates the attention of the free gaza movement. Why is it that today Gaza garners more attention than Tibet?
Why have people not taken up the cause of the Kurds who have through colonial determing of boarders have been living divided from themselves dispered amongst five(?) nations often in the lower portion of society with nowhere to call home for themselves?
Cuba has been under blockade from the US for fifty years, is not collective punishment for voting the wrong way? (Or more accuratlly embracing a different style of economics and politics) Why don't people in Turkey or Ireland or anywhere else care more about that?
Lebanon has effectively been ruled by Syria for decades...where's the outrage?
When the IRA was terrorizing the U.K. was force not option to combat that? Were people outraged at the UK's right to defend itself?
Are people actively trying to help out in Chechnya against the will of Russia?
I'm pretty sure their are some Cypriots that think Turkey is occupying Cypress despite global recognition of its right to exist there. Is their not a slight double standard on the part of Turkey here?
Why when Israel builds a fence to protect its boarders from people that want to kill them (make no mistake that is the desired end goal) is it condemned, but when America builds a fence to keep out illegal immigrants and drugs (both of which play a huge role in Americas economy both good and buy), a blind eye is turned. Hypocracy? I dont know...
Why do neighboring Arab countries that love to use the Palestinian issue for their own personal gain not help out more directly with aid and facilitating a lasting and meaningful solution for Palestine/Israel?
Why is it that arms and weapons developed in Gaza and the West Bank by Israel for close quarter combat and urban warfare are not scrutinized or condemned by the dozens of countries that subsequently purchase the arms for their own means?
What about Somalia? or the Congo? or dozens of other places? Why does the world care so much for this issue, when their are so many that could if someone wanted them to generate the same buzz?
I truly hope I have not offended anyone here. It is not my intent. I am solely motivated here by my curiosity to peoples answers to some of these question because of the very global, eclectic, and seemingly well informed makeup of this forum.
Thanks in advance to anyone that wants to offer some ideas on this.
I know once upon a time their was an annual free tibet concert, China still occupies Tibet, the Dalai Lama is still not home yet their is not global free tibet movement that generates the attention of the free gaza movement. Why is it that today Gaza garners more attention than Tibet?
Why have people not taken up the cause of the Kurds who have through colonial determing of boarders have been living divided from themselves dispered amongst five(?) nations often in the lower portion of society with nowhere to call home for themselves?
Cuba has been under blockade from the US for fifty years, is not collective punishment for voting the wrong way? (Or more accuratlly embracing a different style of economics and politics) Why don't people in Turkey or Ireland or anywhere else care more about that?
Lebanon has effectively been ruled by Syria for decades...where's the outrage?
When the IRA was terrorizing the U.K. was force not option to combat that? Were people outraged at the UK's right to defend itself?
Are people actively trying to help out in Chechnya against the will of Russia?
I'm pretty sure their are some Cypriots that think Turkey is occupying Cypress despite global recognition of its right to exist there. Is their not a slight double standard on the part of Turkey here?
Why when Israel builds a fence to protect its boarders from people that want to kill them (make no mistake that is the desired end goal) is it condemned, but when America builds a fence to keep out illegal immigrants and drugs (both of which play a huge role in Americas economy both good and buy), a blind eye is turned. Hypocracy? I dont know...
I think you're mistaken if you think criticism of Israel exceeds public recognition and outrage generated by these other issues. It's only really been since Israel's bombardment of Gaza in 2009 that the world has opened it's eyes to this issue. For the past 60 years there has been very little attention paid to it. 60 years is a long time to sit back and watch the brutalization of a people, and an ethnic cleansing, to take place. Either way, despite the recent attention paid to what's going on in Israel and the occupied territories what's changed? Nothing. The occupation continues, and the blockade of Gaza continues.
As for Tibet, Cuba, Chechnya, the Kurd's, e.t.c, I don't know why these causes haven't garnered much support. Maybe it's because the violence in these places has been few and far between. Maybe it's also because the oppresion and violence in these countries isn't directly supported and funded by our own governments and tax payers - the blockade of Cuba notwithstanding. When was the last time the U.S bombed the civilian population of Havana, and dropped white phosphorous on them?
Oh, and the fence built by Israel is illegal under international law. And it isn't being built to protect them from Palestinians wanting to kill them because if it was then it wouldn't be encircling Palestinian enclaves but would be running along the green line. It's not just keeping Palestinians out but it's enclosing them inside the borders of Israel. Simply put, it's just another tool in Israels ongoing land-grab.
Israeli Military Retracts Claim Passengers "Al Qaeda Mercenaries"
The Israeli military...has been forced to retract its claim that passengers aboard the flotilla were agents of al-Qaeda. An Israel Defense Forces press release sent out two days after the assault says approximately forty flotilla passengers "are mercenaries belonging to the Al Qaeda terror organization." The independent journalist Max Blumenthal says both he and an Israeli colleague asked the Israeli military press office to substantiate its claim. No evidence was provided, and one day later the press released was modified. The original headline was changed from "Attackers of the IDF Soldiers Found to be Al Qaeda Mercenaries" to "Attackers of the IDF Soldiers Found Without Identification Papers." Commenting on the retraction, Blumenthal writes, "The more Israel’s claims about the flotilla’s terrorist links are challenged, the more they fall apart."
'...The Turkish prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan – who was the subject of fresh vitriol in the Israeli media today – had raised the idea of personally joining an aid ship to Gaza, according to Lebanese media reports. Turkey last week recalled its ambassador to Israel.
Israel's foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, today insisted that "it is inconceivable that we should apologise to the Turkish government". He hinted that Turkey was heading in the same direction as Iran, saying Iran had been a "good friend" to Israel in the 1970s. This was echoed by his deputy, Danny Ayalon, who said: "If they sever relations, it is clear they are switching sides in the direction of extremist Islam."
Of course, because anyone who opposes Israel's crimes must be an extremist Islamist.
the irish ship was on the way to Gaza is under israel forces now,no blood ,no shooting,nothing..there was another way..the violance they use was unnesesarty..they did it cos was turkish ship..
D, the fact that it was a turkish ship has nothing to do with it. Turkey has been one of Israels most popular tourist destinations over the past few years. Almost every Israeli has been to Turkey at least once on some kind of vacation (myself included). The reason that there was violance on one ship as opposed to the other was the reaction of the participants. The Irish ship trully was filled with peacefull activists opposed to the blockade (totally legitimate) and co-opperated when the Israeli army addresed them notyfing them that they were to be boarded. The trukish convoy on the other hand was filled (not entirely of course) with people who had very different intentions. The response all boils down to the issue if there are peace activists or extremists on the ship.
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
now, naturally there's nothing wrong with being 'religious' BUT this branch of the jewish faith doesn't believe in a Palestinian state, they believe their god gave all that land to them.
are you saying some in the orthodox jewish community do not support colonization of the area??
That is exactly what I am saying. There are plenty of orthodox jews here that are left wing as far as politics goes and believe that the palestinans should have there own state. You are basing your comments on the writings of extremists that make up a minority (although a very vocal one) of that community.
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
SIGNATURE
Planning on popping my PJ cherry at bilbao in July
Must be nice to come and go as you please ey rafie? Have a great time pooping your pearl jam cherry in Bilbao. Maybe you can ask pearl jam why they've never played israel. And yes, I know there's 2 "P's" in popping rafi-E.
the irish ship was on the way to Gaza is under israel forces now,no blood ,no shooting,nothing..there was another way..the violance they use was unnesesarty..they did it cos was turkish ship..
D, the fact that it was a turkish ship has nothing to do with it. Turkey has been one of Israels most popular tourist destinations over the past few years. Almost every Israeli has been to Turkey at least once on some kind of vacation (myself included). The reason that there was violance on one ship as opposed to the other was the reaction of the participants. The Irish ship trully was filled with peacefull activists opposed to the blockade (totally legitimate) and co-opperated when the Israeli army addresed them notyfing them that they were to be boarded. The trukish convoy on the other hand was filled (not entirely of course) with people who had very different intentions. The response all boils down to the issue if there are peace activists or extremists on the ship.
and alot of turkish come to Greece,number one destination of Greeks is Kostantinoulpoli
but we are not the best friends...
again ,i told u my opinion..i know from experience..someone order shoot to kill..he must go to justice..
he is a murderer.im not talking about the whole israel,and ofcourse not of the people in your country
i post in the past here in the forum,that israel isnt the only evil in the world,so many countries,attact other with no reason..this happen last week..was a BIG mistake..and they one made the mistake must pay..
i see u going to bilbao,we can meet and have fun..but the only conversation will be around pearl jam-women-drinks..the 3 inportant things in life..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
D, the fact that it was a turkish ship has nothing to do with it. Turkey has been one of Israels most popular tourist destinations over the past few years. Almost every Israeli has been to Turkey at least once on some kind of vacation (myself included). The reason that there was violance on one ship as opposed to the other was the reaction of the participants. The Irish ship trully was filled with peacefull activists opposed to the blockade (totally legitimate) and co-opperated when the Israeli army addresed them notyfing them that they were to be boarded. The trukish convoy on the other hand was filled (not entirely of course) with people who had very different intentions. The response all boils down to the issue if there are peace activists or extremists on the ship.
the military has admitted there were no weapons on board ... what kind of reaction warrants the need for highly trained military personnel with high tech armor and weaponry to kill 9 civilians? ... you want to know the big difference between the two boars?
the way the military boarded them ... on the turkish boat - you come in the darkness with guns firing (all the activists released have said so much) from military helicopters ... on the irish boat - you come on water in broad daylight ...
you want people to question their sources of information ... maybe you should too ...
the irish ship was on the way to Gaza is under israel forces now,no blood ,no shooting,nothing..there was another way..the violance they use was unnesesarty..they did it cos was turkish ship..
D, the fact that it was a turkish ship has nothing to do with it. Turkey has been one of Israels most popular tourist destinations over the past few years. Almost every Israeli has been to Turkey at least once on some kind of vacation (myself included). The reason that there was violance on one ship as opposed to the other was the reaction of the participants. The Irish ship trully was filled with peacefull activists opposed to the blockade (totally legitimate) and co-opperated when the Israeli army addresed them notyfing them that they were to be boarded. The trukish convoy on the other hand was filled (not entirely of course) with people who had very different intentions. The response all boils down to the issue if there are peace activists or extremists on the ship.
then why did a member of the israeli knesset that was on the boat say israel opened fire BEFORE they boarded the vessel??
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Comments
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
The discussions we've been having on this website are no different to hundreds, or thousands, of other websites where people are talking about this subject.
I don't really understand your point. Are you suggesting that we have no right to voice an opinion?
Sorry, all the name calling just got under my skin I guess. you know, people that believe they are perfect and have all the answers so they start throwing names around to make their point. Arogance is annoying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRk16dGJPaQ
Why is it that Israel is not allowed to defend themselves without ridicule?
Oh dear.... :?
Where to begin?
When you are fighting on on one, than sure. This was not one on one fight - It was more like ten on one (the one being the soldier). Choke holds and the sort are kind of time consuming and do not really help if there are another 9 people continuing to attack.
Why do you all keep referring back to the shots being at close range? That is kind of an obsolete point. The entire conflict was close range. The people shot were wielding knives, metal bars and the such, so they were obviously very close to the soldiers. As for the number of shots, these soldiers are also trained to fire several precision shots in a very short time. Shooting 4 shots for them would be like shooting one to someone not trained (Not sure if I adequately explained my self in that last sentence. Hopefully you all will understand what I meant).
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
Agreed.
the shots being at close range is a very important part of the story. havent you ever seen one of these autposy shows on HBO? at a distance of 45 cm there are powder burns on the victims head. and it is very important when trying to prove intent. it makes a huge difference between a charge of murder in the first murder 2nd degree, manslaughter, and assault and battery....there are legal definitions for these and based on all of this, these commandos would be looking at murder one and either death or life in prison without parole...and in the psychology literature it states that a normal, sane human being, even with military training can not put a gun in someone's face or to the back of their head and pull the trigger. they profiled the man who killed dimebag darrell, who was killed by 5 bullets to the face, and it said you have to have an unbelievable amount of hatred to be able to calmly shoot someone in the face at close range. they are able to detatch from reality enough that they do not see the victim as a human being, only as something that they hate enough to completely destroy with multiple close range shots to the head...it is quite distressing to even think about...yet it happens all the time in our world, which is why some prosecuters consider these close up murders hate crimes because you have to have a lot of hate in you to be able to carry it out... so now that you have attempted to completely defend these murderous bastards, i will have no further dialogue with you. it is a waste of my time. go ahead and support these animals, and when justice is finally served, may there be enough fucking video evidence to prove to you that what these barbarians did was a crime, pure and simple...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Fair enough, safe was a poor choice of words. You captured what I was getting at better: Its sanctioned
i can't remember where i read it but i read an article that said the number of, i think, some branch of orthodox jews, had exploded in the IDF, there used to be under 10% of them making up the IDF but now a lot have becom officers and such in the IDF
now, naturally there's nothing wrong with being 'religious' BUT this branch of the jewish faith doesn't believe in a Palestinian state, they believe their god gave all that land to them.
so you got all these religious fanatics in an army that is brutally occupying a people and have pretty much total immunity to do whatever the fuck they want. they can shoot a clearly marked journalist holding a white flag and yelling "we're british journalists" in the head and nothing happens. they can commit war crimes and use white phosphorous and DIME weapons in civilians areas (and to burn down a storehouse with millions of $ worth of aid) and nothing happens. they can commit 2 massacres in the town of Qana in roughly 10 years and nothing happens. they can impose an illegal blockade with the stated goal being to starve the Palestinians into submission and nothing happens.
again, there's nothing wrong with having a set of religious beliefs but when you become a fanatic and are willing to kill, hurt or displace millions over it you are fucked in the head no matter what god you are doing this for
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
This post is wrong on so many levels. How can you say such things and condemn an entire community of people you have never met. What makes you such an expert about the different sects of Judaism??? That would be like me saying that any Muslim who prays 5 times a day is connected to El-Quaida. You have finally managed to shock and appall me.
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
did i say it was the entire community?? no, i didn't.
are you saying some in the orthodox jewish community do not support colonization of the area??
what about Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro of Yitzhar that wrote a book saying it was ok to kill kids or those that speak badly of the country? you don't think that's a bit wacky?
it is nothing like saying a muslim that prays 5 times a day is a member of al qaeda, a more apt compairson would be the wahabbi part of islam that preaches violence.
so get over yourself
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2010- ... ke-amends/
Jerry Haber: Where We Orthodox Jews Have Gone Wrong – And How We Can Make Amends
The main source of Jewish hatred and bigotry against Arabs today comes from the orthodox, and especially the modern orthodox… The Israeli religious Zionism that has produced the settler movement is unaffected by universal moral values.
Zionism, and US Tax Dollars, at Work: Orthodox American Jews, celebrating Jerusalem Day by taunting a Palestinian woman whose Sheikh-Jarrah house has been occupied by Jewish settlers (Photo: Ahmad Gharabli/Agence France-Presse)
To: The President of Yeshiva University, the Executive Vice President Emeritus of the Orthodox Union, and the Director of Public Publicity, Orthodox Union
Recognizing the Sin of Bigotry, and Eradicating It
Gentlemen, I address this to you because I know you personally and admire you greatly. I have been members of the same synagogue as you, and one of you has been my rabbi.
Perhaps you saw this picture in the Wall Street Journal blog online The caption that the world read was, “A Palestinian woman whose house has been occupied by Jewish settlers argued with Israelis who came to celebrate Jerusalem Day in the mainly Arab neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah, East Jerusalem, Wednesday.”
But you knew that the caption was wrong. You looked at those faces. You knew that the laughing faces were not of Israelis, but of modern orthodox Jewish youngsters from the US, probably in yeshiva for their gap year. You may have even recognized some of them. You may know some of their parents.
So my question to you is very simple. It is the same question that Rav Aharon Lichtenstein posed a quarter of a century ago, when some of the best and brightest of Israeli religious Zionists were arrested as members of the violent Jewish underground. It was a title of an op-ed that Rav Aharon wrote for Haaretz:
“Where have we gone wrong?”
I remember how impressed I was by the question — then. For I thought that, finally, an acknowledged leader of modern orthodoxy/religious Zionism recognized that deep hatred and racist attitudes towards the Arab had been allowed to fester in religious Zionist educational institutions. (Of course, racism and bigotry are not the exclusive properties of modern orthodoxy. But the “in-your-face confidence” of the group of hooligans in this picture has religious Zionism written all over it.)
At first I was exhilarated by Rav Aharon’s hakarat ha-het, his recognition of the sin and its vicious consequences, and of the need to correct it. But time passed, and nothing was done. Rav Aharon went back to his yeshiva, and every time some modern orthodox Jew stunned the world with his indefensible actions — Baruch Goldstein, Yigal Amir — we were witness to the same hand-wringing among the moderates, as well as the old defense mechanisms:”Who are you to criticize?” “We condemn their actions, but not their intentions.” “Look at the hatred and bigotry of Islamic Fundamentalists.”
So let me tell you why your children — not all, but enough of them to get you worried — will continue to be in pictures like the one above, or in movies like Max Blumenthal and Joseph Dana’s “Feeling the Hate in Jerusalem.” Let me tell you why the bigotry will range from the not-so-genteel Islam-bashers that you find in every shul nowadays (when you were growing up, who knew from Islam?) to the “glatt kosher, mehadrin” bigots and hate-filled thugs in the picture.
The main source of Jewish hatred and bigotry against Arabs today comes from the orthodox, and especially the modern orthodox. This wasn’t always the case. The orthodoxy that sprung from European soil absorbed the best of West civilization, culture, and morality. The earlier generations of religious Zionists, Rav Reines, Rav Kook, Rav Soloveitchik, were European to the core. And the early generation of religious Zionists in America, though fed the prejudiced Zionist line about the Arabs, nevertheless was deeply influenced by liberal American values, and the American rejection of bigotry. Such moderates even convinced themselves that this was the message of the Torah.
No more. The Israeli religious Zionism that has produced the settler movement is unaffected by universal moral values. I don’t need to go into details here. You are familiar with their rabbis, you have read the articles and parsha sheets; you have recoiled at the message. Israeli religious Zionism today is insular, parochial, fundamentalist, and deeply, deeply bigoted. I know many American orthodox Jews who have come on aliyah, Jews with moderate principles, proud of American and universal moral values. They are terribly uncomfortable when their children return from the religious Zionist yeshivot and ulpanot as racist bigots who view the Arabs as animals and underlings, “hewers of wood and drawers of water.”
Modern orthodox educators in America should have worried less about the color of their children’s hats, and more about the color of their hearts. When they agonized over whether they would stay frum, they should have agonized over whether they would stay mentshen, humane individuals.
For modern orthodoxy to reduce the likelihood of more pictures like the one above, it should take the following steps:
1. Day schools should develop programs against prejudice, and I don’t mean just prejudice against Blacks and Hispanics, although that is important, too. I mean programs to counter bigotry against Arabs and Muslims. Appropriate sources can be found in Torah sources to give this a Jewish cast, and the illiberal sources can be explained away, as they were explained away by the 19th and 20th century European rabbis. One can start with Rav Abraham Kook’s view that the land of Israel can be sold to Muslims because they are not idolaters.
2. Schools should invite Palestinian refugees to speak to the students about their experiences. That would be a kiddush ha-Shem/sanctification of God’s name in its own right, and the educational value would be enormous. I am not saying that equal time must be given to Palestinian spokesmen on the conflict. This is not about politics. It is about humanity and decency. Oscar Hammerstein wrote, “You’ve got to be taught to hate,” but in a particularistic, religious atmosphere, and in the middle of a conflict, you have to be taught to respect. I realize that taking any time away from the curriculum for “tikun olam” is controversial, and trying to humanize Arabs will be even more so. After all, it is not as if when you look over your right shoulders, you see any less bigotry and racism. But choose not to, and you will have more pictures like the ones above. And what decent human frum Jew would want that?
3. American Muslims should come to the high schools and talk about their religion — or if that is too much for you, then find Jews, frum Jews, who will try to provide a positive portrait of Islam. It is easy to cherry-pick sources to portray another religion in an unflattering light. But that is where bigotry begins, and when it is “supported by the evidence” it gets harder to eradicate. Do to the Muslim sources what we do to the Jewish sources in day schools — accentuate the positive while explaining away the negative.
4. Modern orthodoxy sees the Rambam/Maimonides as one of its great models. Make it known to your students that Maimonides was Islamic civilization’s gift to the Jews. Without the Islamic environment, there could have never been a Rambam. The influence of the golden age of Islamic civilization is written on every page of his works, and I mean his legal works as well as his philosophical ones. And, as you know, it is not just Rambam.
5. Don’t romanticize the history of Jewish-Arab relations, but don’t demonize it, either. Yes there was Muslim discrimination against Jews, but it has been the bon ton of late to exaggerate it and to fail to understand the problems of any traditional religion dealing with other religions when it has political power. I wouldn’t want to be a Christian living in the Land of Israel under a Jewish king, according to Maimonides’ law that condemned them to death.
6. Always draw parallels from other people’s bigotry to our own. Bigotry and xenophobia are universal phenomena. The same Jews who are revolted by what others have done to them should feel the same revulsion when they do it against others. Show zero tolerance for such bigotry.
7. Most important, give the proper preparation and training for students going to Israel in their gap year, a year with little supervision and with exposure to deeply racist and bigoted attitudes – all in the name of Torah. If they come back from Israel not wanting to talk to girls, you get nervous that they have fallen off the deep end. But what of their attitudes towards gentiles, especially Arabs? Aren’t you worried about that?
It is not enough to ask, where have we gone wrong. We have to take steps to stamp this out. Liberals, conservatives, democrats, republicans – all of us should work to eradicate the central illness with frum Judaism today – hate-filled bigotry.
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
turkish prime minister organize new conwoy now..he will be on the ship this time and will be protect from turkish navy..now i want to see some balls
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
That would be awesome -- is he really organizing a convoy?
to tell u the truth,,not awesome..both israelians and Turks our countries not going back..i dont see this ending well..
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Oh man this shits gonna get crazy!!!
I know once upon a time their was an annual free tibet concert, China still occupies Tibet, the Dalai Lama is still not home yet their is not global free tibet movement that generates the attention of the free gaza movement. Why is it that today Gaza garners more attention than Tibet?
Why have people not taken up the cause of the Kurds who have through colonial determing of boarders have been living divided from themselves dispered amongst five(?) nations often in the lower portion of society with nowhere to call home for themselves?
Cuba has been under blockade from the US for fifty years, is not collective punishment for voting the wrong way? (Or more accuratlly embracing a different style of economics and politics) Why don't people in Turkey or Ireland or anywhere else care more about that?
Lebanon has effectively been ruled by Syria for decades...where's the outrage?
When the IRA was terrorizing the U.K. was force not option to combat that? Were people outraged at the UK's right to defend itself?
Are people actively trying to help out in Chechnya against the will of Russia?
I'm pretty sure their are some Cypriots that think Turkey is occupying Cypress despite global recognition of its right to exist there. Is their not a slight double standard on the part of Turkey here?
Why when Israel builds a fence to protect its boarders from people that want to kill them (make no mistake that is the desired end goal) is it condemned, but when America builds a fence to keep out illegal immigrants and drugs (both of which play a huge role in Americas economy both good and buy), a blind eye is turned. Hypocracy? I dont know...
Why do neighboring Arab countries that love to use the Palestinian issue for their own personal gain not help out more directly with aid and facilitating a lasting and meaningful solution for Palestine/Israel?
Why is it that arms and weapons developed in Gaza and the West Bank by Israel for close quarter combat and urban warfare are not scrutinized or condemned by the dozens of countries that subsequently purchase the arms for their own means?
What about Somalia? or the Congo? or dozens of other places? Why does the world care so much for this issue, when their are so many that could if someone wanted them to generate the same buzz?
I truly hope I have not offended anyone here. It is not my intent. I am solely motivated here by my curiosity to peoples answers to some of these question because of the very global, eclectic, and seemingly well informed makeup of this forum.
Thanks in advance to anyone that wants to offer some ideas on this.
I think you're mistaken if you think criticism of Israel exceeds public recognition and outrage generated by these other issues. It's only really been since Israel's bombardment of Gaza in 2009 that the world has opened it's eyes to this issue. For the past 60 years there has been very little attention paid to it. 60 years is a long time to sit back and watch the brutalization of a people, and an ethnic cleansing, to take place. Either way, despite the recent attention paid to what's going on in Israel and the occupied territories what's changed? Nothing. The occupation continues, and the blockade of Gaza continues.
As for Tibet, Cuba, Chechnya, the Kurd's, e.t.c, I don't know why these causes haven't garnered much support. Maybe it's because the violence in these places has been few and far between. Maybe it's also because the oppresion and violence in these countries isn't directly supported and funded by our own governments and tax payers - the blockade of Cuba notwithstanding. When was the last time the U.S bombed the civilian population of Havana, and dropped white phosphorous on them?
Oh, and the fence built by Israel is illegal under international law. And it isn't being built to protect them from Palestinians wanting to kill them because if it was then it wouldn't be encircling Palestinian enclaves but would be running along the green line. It's not just keeping Palestinians out but it's enclosing them inside the borders of Israel. Simply put, it's just another tool in Israels ongoing land-grab.
Israeli Military Retracts Claim Passengers "Al Qaeda Mercenaries"
The Israeli military...has been forced to retract its claim that passengers aboard the flotilla were agents of al-Qaeda. An Israel Defense Forces press release sent out two days after the assault says approximately forty flotilla passengers "are mercenaries belonging to the Al Qaeda terror organization." The independent journalist Max Blumenthal says both he and an Israeli colleague asked the Israeli military press office to substantiate its claim. No evidence was provided, and one day later the press released was modified. The original headline was changed from "Attackers of the IDF Soldiers Found to be Al Qaeda Mercenaries" to "Attackers of the IDF Soldiers Found Without Identification Papers." Commenting on the retraction, Blumenthal writes, "The more Israel’s claims about the flotilla’s terrorist links are challenged, the more they fall apart."
'...The Turkish prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan – who was the subject of fresh vitriol in the Israeli media today – had raised the idea of personally joining an aid ship to Gaza, according to Lebanese media reports. Turkey last week recalled its ambassador to Israel.
Israel's foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, today insisted that "it is inconceivable that we should apologise to the Turkish government". He hinted that Turkey was heading in the same direction as Iran, saying Iran had been a "good friend" to Israel in the 1970s. This was echoed by his deputy, Danny Ayalon, who said: "If they sever relations, it is clear they are switching sides in the direction of extremist Islam."
Of course, because anyone who opposes Israel's crimes must be an extremist Islamist.
D, the fact that it was a turkish ship has nothing to do with it. Turkey has been one of Israels most popular tourist destinations over the past few years. Almost every Israeli has been to Turkey at least once on some kind of vacation (myself included). The reason that there was violance on one ship as opposed to the other was the reaction of the participants. The Irish ship trully was filled with peacefull activists opposed to the blockade (totally legitimate) and co-opperated when the Israeli army addresed them notyfing them that they were to be boarded. The trukish convoy on the other hand was filled (not entirely of course) with people who had very different intentions. The response all boils down to the issue if there are peace activists or extremists on the ship.
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
Here is what you said:
That is exactly what I am saying. There are plenty of orthodox jews here that are left wing as far as politics goes and believe that the palestinans should have there own state. You are basing your comments on the writings of extremists that make up a minority (although a very vocal one) of that community.
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
Planning on popping my PJ cherry at bilbao in July
Must be nice to come and go as you please ey rafie? Have a great time pooping your pearl jam cherry in Bilbao. Maybe you can ask pearl jam why they've never played israel. And yes, I know there's 2 "P's" in popping rafi-E.
but we are not the best friends...
again ,i told u my opinion..i know from experience..someone order shoot to kill..he must go to justice..
he is a murderer.im not talking about the whole israel,and ofcourse not of the people in your country
i post in the past here in the forum,that israel isnt the only evil in the world,so many countries,attact other with no reason..this happen last week..was a BIG mistake..and they one made the mistake must pay..
i see u going to bilbao,we can meet and have fun..but the only conversation will be around pearl jam-women-drinks..the 3 inportant things in life..
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
the military has admitted there were no weapons on board ... what kind of reaction warrants the need for highly trained military personnel with high tech armor and weaponry to kill 9 civilians? ... you want to know the big difference between the two boars?
the way the military boarded them ... on the turkish boat - you come in the darkness with guns firing (all the activists released have said so much) from military helicopters ... on the irish boat - you come on water in broad daylight ...
you want people to question their sources of information ... maybe you should too ...
then why did a member of the israeli knesset that was on the boat say israel opened fire BEFORE they boarded the vessel??
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'