I changed it because it became the point of the post...because no one wants to admit that the protest became violent......ok it was a mistake they became violent.......but I have to say the protesters are a lot like others on here by jumping to conclusion and twisting it into something it’s not.....example: the police were arresting someone so the protesters assumed the guy was innocent? Even if the guy was innocent I don’t think it is protocol to throw bottles at policemen....in fact I think that is against the law....they should have started with the tear gas when that started....but they won’t because they will then be labeled racist.... The same way people are labeled racist when they disagree with the president...
Why don't you acknowledge that the protesters in the civil disobedience video were not violent and then people will be more likely to take you seriously and discuss the bottle-throwing?
They should have started with the TEAR GAS?? Are you serious? And you wonder why people are afraid when people like you get onto a police force? They didn't throw tear gas at thousands of peaceful protesters when a couple of them threw bottles because to do so would have created an even less safe environment and violated the civil rights of the thousands of other people who did nothing wrong! And you know what? If it was the fear of being labeled as racist that is all that kept the police from tear gassing a bunch of innocent people - probably including children and the elderly - then maybe that fear is a good thing.
and one of those water bottles could have hit A LITTLE KID ALSO...OR PUT OUT SOMEONES EYE.....BUT YOU IGNORE THE FACT THAT THEY WERE VIOLENT... WHY?
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
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g under p
Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
No violence in the video were the people were chained to the building ok scb?....isn’t that a bit crazy to do?........are they uneducated or what? That’s no way to change the law.....looks like they just wanted to be on the news
You really should stop calling people names. You particularly shouldn't talk shit about people when you're the one making the mistakes.
In this case, it's you who is uneducated, not them. Blocking, chaining oneself to, and/or occupying a building is a common and historically significant method of civil disobedience. And civil disobedience has changed MANY laws. Ever hear of Gandhi and the independence of Indian from British colonial rule? Ever hear of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and the American civil rights movement? Give me your address and I'll send you a history book for your birthday.
I'm pretty sure though that if the Tea Party people chose to use this form of civil disobedience she wouldn't have a problem with it. We used this method in protesting the Vietnam War, Civil Rights SitIn in Greensboro NC. You do remember the time when in our American History we (when I say we I mean white people) refused to serve people of color at lunch counters. They chose to sitin until served, they weren't and were spit on, food poured on and finally arrested. It worked as the sitins caught on and businesses started to lose money around the South.
So civil disobedience does work and can work, one of the BEST American ways of protesting.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
I’m just wondering were the bad taste for America and its citizen comes from? And the total disrespect for the law....who is teaching you that you can pick and choose which laws you want to follow?.....I have only come across one other person in my life time that hates this country as much as you and I caulked that up to his youth....
You are very delusional at times
why do you immigrants are the only ones breaking laws?
I bet that all of us this board pick and choose what laws to obey and break on a daily basis.
Have you drove to fast in your car, jay walked, turned without your blinker, maybe drove after one to many beers, let your dog shit on someone's lawn and left it there, realized that a cashier didn't charge you for something but still walked out the door with it..... the list goes on,
I suspect that you break at least one of those daily, why do you have disregard for the law?
I never said immigrants are the only ones breaking the law....what I am trying to say is some on here are giving them a pass to break the law...yet when there is a Tea Party protest completly non-violent and no laws broken they still get accused of hate and violence and called names that surely are unwarranted
example:
Low IQ’s
dumb
puppets
racist
bigots
uncle toms
1) Tetley Testes
(2) Cranial bean baggers
(3) Earl Grey Scrotumfaces
(4) Balls on Face Party
Since your original comment was about me and now you've clarified what you meant, I'll reply by challenging you to provide one example of a post where I either said immigrants should be allowed to break the law or hurled blanket, unwarranted insults at the Tea Party as a whole. (Balls on Face Party? Really?? Does that even sound remotely like something I would say? :roll: )
I don't know what your problem is, but you keep making all these claims against me and not once have you ever demonstrated that anything you've said is true. So if you're going to stick with your MO of insulting me when you don't have a valid rebuttal, please have at least some ability to support your claims.
Exactly...
For example, if a law like this was envoked in BC against people who seemed like they could be "illegal immigrants" my father would have to carry around papers, my boyfriend would have to carry around papers, my boss would have to carry around papers, my coworker would have to carry around papers, one of my best friends would have to carry around papers.... the list goes on, and all would be stopped just because they LOOK lke they "may" be illegal...
japanese Guatemalan Indian Filipino Chinese... they all are legal but could be stopped and harassed. that's not fair at all.
They would not be stopped just because of what they look like. The law states that if they are pulled over questioned about anything they were doing, like speeding or whatever, they have a right to ask for proof of citizenship. And you make it sound like everyone is going to have to carry a briefcase around with them. I think people are being a little over-dramatic. If I got stopped and they asked for papers, I would take them out of my wallet or glove box and show it to them. No big deal.
Sounds familiar:
Invisible privilege is what you’re experiencing when you tell someone outside your race, gender, class, etc., “I don’t know why you’recomplaining; the system works just fine for for me.”
Not that hard, all you gotta do is youtube it. but here it is. By the way, you don't see this shit at any of the tea parties that you claim are so racist and violent.
Why all the comparisons of the Tea Parties to the protesters of the AZ law? What's the point? Do you actually think if one group does something wrong then the other group is automatically exalted? It sounds like little kids at a playground. One kid calls someone names and gets in trouble for it and then when another kid trips someone the first kid says, "Oh yeah? Well HE tripped someone!!" as if that means it's now okay for him to continue to call people names. Where's the grown up logic here?
If I got stopped and they asked for papers, I would take them out of my wallet or glove box and show it to them. No big deal.
What is it that you would pull out of your wallet? You carry around your birth certificate and/or passport with you every where you go?!?!?
If it was a law....ummm, yes. Shouldn't be a problem for women, carrying purses and all.
Really? Carrying around my original birth certificate, which is fragile and should be kept in a safe deposit box, and doesn't fit in a wallet (no, I cannot get a wallet-sized one) should not be a problem? Really?? You don't see how this could easily lead to damage or theft of the document? I frequently don't carry purses or wallets when I go out anyway. I can just see myself now at a fancy dinner in my little black dress with no pockets (which I don't need anyway because I'm not buying or driving), having to carry around my fucking birth certificate. If the government wants me to carry mine around, they'd better buy me a nice clutch to match every one of my nice dresses.
What is it that you would pull out of your wallet? You carry around your birth certificate and/or passport with you every where you go?!?!?
If it was a law....ummm, yes. Shouldn't be a problem for women, carrying purses and all.
Really? Carrying around my original birth certificate, which is fragile and should be kept in a safe deposit box, and doesn't fit in a wallet (no, I cannot get a wallet-sized one) should not be a problem? Really?? You don't see how this could easily lead to damage or theft of the document? I frequently don't carry purses or wallets when I go out anyway. I can just see myself now at a fancy dinner in my little black dress with no pockets (which I don't need anyway because I'm not buying or driving), having to carry around my fucking birth certificate. If the government wants me to carry mine around, they'd better buy me a nice clutch to match every one of my nice dresses.
That's right and you should be treated like a lady in those nice dresses.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
i would much rather be inconvenienced by having to show papers...oh my god...than getting shot by a drug runner with an AK-47. how come we do not question the rights that were violated of innocent people who were killed by illegal immigrants not only in Arizona but Texas as well? so i ask again, how would all the people who oppose this legislation prevent this from happening?
Seriously? Those who support the bill say those who oppose it are overreacting by thinking they'll be made to provide documentation of citizenship because of the law... but you don't think it's a wee bit of an overreaction to suggest that without it you'll be gunned down by a drug runner with an AK-47? Seriously???
As for the people who have been killed, we've been over this SOOO many fucking times! For one thing, how dare you even suggest that we don't care about those people and their rights?! Secondly, those people were killed by people who were violent criminals as a primary identity, who happened to also be illegal entrants into this country. (I won't say immigrants, because I don't think they even lived here.) Unless you are suggesting that all illegal immigrants are violent criminals - or even that most violent criminals are illegal immigrants - your argument is not rational. If you want to prevent this from happening, deal with the VIOLENT CRIMINALS (whether illegal, legal, Hispanic, white, or whatever), not the illegal immigrants. Not only is this law failing to address the real problem (which is why so many believe it's motivated by prejudice), but many groups of Arizona police have come out and said that it's going to drain the resources they need to fight violent crime. Even if we all hated Mexicans and were fine with that, if we respect the rights of the ranchers on the border to not be murdered we should oppose this law because it puts them at greater risk!
....I have only come across one other person in my life time that hates this country as much as you and I caulked that up to his youth....
Sounds a lot more to me like she loves the country and wants to stay true to some of the core values on which it was founded.... more like she's pledging her grievance to the flag.....
Interesting take on things... are you really a Pearl Jam fan?
I pledge my grievance to the flag
Cause you don't give blood... to take it back again
Oh we're all deserving something more
Progress,... taste it,... invest-it-all
Champagne breakfast for everyone
Break the innocent when they're proud...
Raise the stakes,... then bring em down...
If they fail to obey... oh if they fail to obey
Pledge your grievance to the flag
Cause you don't give blood... then take it back again
Oh we're all deserving something more.
EXACTLY! Thank you! I'm pissed at the people who would destroy the foundation of this great nation of ours just for their own self-interest. And great song - very apropos!
I changed it because it became the point of the post...because no one wants to admit that the protest became violent......ok it was a mistake they became violent.......but I have to say the protesters are a lot like others on here by jumping to conclusion and twisting it into something it’s not.....example: the police were arresting someone so the protesters assumed the guy was innocent? Even if the guy was innocent I don’t think it is protocol to throw bottles at policemen....in fact I think that is against the law....they should have started with the tear gas when that started....but they won’t because they will then be labeled racist.... The same way people are labeled racist when they disagree with the president...
Why don't you acknowledge that the protesters in the civil disobedience video were not violent and then people will be more likely to take you seriously and discuss the bottle-throwing?
They should have started with the TEAR GAS?? Are you serious? And you wonder why people are afraid when people like you get onto a police force? They didn't throw tear gas at thousands of peaceful protesters when a couple of them threw bottles because to do so would have created an even less safe environment and violated the civil rights of the thousands of other people who did nothing wrong! And you know what? If it was the fear of being labeled as racist that is all that kept the police from tear gassing a bunch of innocent people - probably including children and the elderly - then maybe that fear is a good thing.
and one of those water bottles could have hit A LITTLE KID ALSO...OR PUT OUT SOMEONES EYE.....BUT YOU IGNORE THE FACT THAT THEY WERE VIOLENT... WHY?
Geeze Louise aerial! - are you capable of rational thought?!?!?! YOU DO NOT TEAR GAS A CROWD FULL OF INNOCENT PEOPLE AS A WAY TO PROTECT THEM FROM POSSIBLY BEING HIT BY A PLASTIC BOTTLE THAT IS BEING THROWN AT A SPECIFIC TARGET!!!!
(Please, as a courtesy to me and my loved ones who I would like to protect, please just tell me where you live and what you do for a living so I can try to keep them safe. Seriously. I'm not kidding. :( )
I haven't even yet had a chance to address the bottle-throwing because you were too busy arguing about violence that never happened. So, about the bottle-throwing....
1. It was violent, it was wrong, and it shouldn't have happened.
2. I think you're blowing it out of proportion, which doesn't help your cause.
i would much rather be inconvenienced by having to show papers...oh my god...than getting shot by a drug runner with an AK-47. how come we do not question the rights that were violated of innocent people who were killed by illegal immigrants not only in Arizona but Texas as well? so i ask again, how would all the people who oppose this legislation prevent this from happening?
Seriously? Those who support the bill say those who oppose it are overreacting by thinking they'll be made to provide documentation of citizenship because of the law... but you don't think it's a wee bit of an overreaction to suggest that without it you'll be gunned down by a drug runner with an AK-47? Seriously???
As for the people who have been killed, we've been over this SOOO many fucking times! For one thing, how dare you even suggest that we don't care about those people and their rights?! Secondly, those people were killed by people who were violent criminals as a primary identity, who happened to also be illegal entrants into this country. (I won't say immigrants, because I don't think they even lived here.) Unless you are suggesting that all illegal immigrants are violent criminals - or even that most violent criminals are illegal immigrants - your argument is not rational. If you want to prevent this from happening, deal with the VIOLENT CRIMINALS (whether illegal, legal, Hispanic, white, or whatever), not the illegal immigrants. Not only is this law failing to address the real problem (which is why so many believe it's motivated by prejudice), but many groups of Arizona police have come out and said that it's going to drain the resources they need to fight violent crime. Even if we all hated Mexicans and were fine with that, if we respect the rights of the ranchers on the border to not be murdered we should oppose this law because it puts them at greater risk!
i didn't suggest anything. i just posed a question so maybe you should relax. I simply would like to present papers as opposed to the alternative of possible death. what if you knew a rancher or one of the police officers that was killed by an apparent illegal? again this is called a hypothetical question and not meant to be taken so personally...so if it is going to drain the resources would it not be easier to just deport illegals as opposed to waiting for them to commit a crime and then waster more tax money? appeasement led to many debacles in history, this is no exception. i would also respond by saying all illegal immigrants may not be violent, but they most certainly are criminals by definition. so again...what would you do differently to enforce the prevention of illegal immigration if this law is such a disgrace to America?
i didn't suggest anything. i just posed a question so maybe you should relax. I simply would like to present papers as opposed to the alternative of possible death.
So those are our only two options? Documentation or death? Is there any chance there might be a third option... like, say, not having to be harassed for papers and still not being murdered? Because I'm pretty sure this 3rd option has been the case for me for the 33 years I've lived in this country and the 20 years I've lived on the Mexican border. Documentation or death is not even something I've ever heard of before.
And I would like to know more about this alternative of possible death. What exactly does that mean? What is the probability that, without this law, I will be murdered by an illegal immigrant? Because I'm pretty sure I have a better chance of dying from being struck by lightening than being killed by an illegal Mexican drug runner. And I'm significantly more afraid of being killed by a legal American citizen.
what if you knew a rancher or one of the police officers that was killed by an apparent illegal? again this is called a hypothetical question and not meant to be taken so personally...
But it's not hypothetical, because I have personally experienced similar situations. My ex-boyfriend was brutally murdered by several American Indian men... in Arizona, even. This happens there more than you probably think. This was the 5th (fifth) time one of my friends was murdered by Indians in AZ. And just last July another one of my best friends was beaten nearly to death by a couple Indians in AZ, only surviving because some people heard the commotion and came to help, though he'll never be the same. And you know what? Not once have I ever felt like Indians in Arizona should be profiled because of it. And not once has the state of Arizona tried to enact a law that would do so.
so if it is going to drain the resources would it not be easier to just deport illegals as opposed to waiting for them to commit a crime and then waster more tax money?
Not according to the rules of logic or the law enforcement of Arizona.
appeasement led to many debacles in history, this is no exception. i would also respond by saying all illegal immigrants may not be violent, but they most certainly are criminals by definition.
Who among us is not a criminal by definition? Have you never broken any law?? Should we all be profiled because of the violent criminals of our same race and nationality and because we are also criminals?
so again...what would you do differently to enforce the prevention of illegal immigration if this law is such a disgrace to America?
Don't say "again;" this is totally not the same question you asked before. Ideally, if I wanted to prevent illegal immigration, I would look at the root cause of why people immigrate illegally and stop doing the things we do to create that cause.
it is hypothetical because your ex-boyfriend was not murdered by illegals but by Indians, i guess native Americans is what you mean by that. sorry for saying again, i wont say it again. i still feel better about being inconvenienced to show papers than having criminals in the USA, when they should not be here in the first place. why uphold the status quo that you have experienced for 22 years if it hurts your state in many different ways economically and socially? how would you identify illegal immigrants in the US and ask them why they came to America and fix the problem to prevent it from happening?
For all of you who feel like you're supporting the ranchers and law enforcement officers who have been killed in Arizona by illegal immigrants, let me ask you this: Would you feel equally as passionately about the situation if it were illegal immigrants being murdered by the illegal immigrant drug smugglers? What if it was illegal immigrants being murdered by white American citizens? Do you think we would see so much outrage then?
it is hypothetical because your ex-boyfriend was not murdered by illegals but by Indians,
He and my friends were murdered by one particular race of people from one particular sovereign nation. There is a huge problem of people in Arizona being killed by illegal murderers who belong to this specific group and nation. I believe it's an even bigger problem than people being killed by illegal immigrants. And yet you haven't heard about that in the news medias all over the country, like you've heard about the 2 men who were killed by illegal immigrants. If Arizona really wanted to crack down on crime, they would crack down on the people who are committing most of the crime. And if were right to blame a whole group of people for the violent crimes of a few, then we should be blaming this Indian nation as well. And if having a loved one murdered should inspire people to blame a whole group of people for the violent crimes of a few, then I should regard the people of this Indian nation with the same contempt with which people now think they have a right to regard the race and nation of Mexican illegal immigrants.
i still feel better about being inconvenienced to show papers than having criminals in the USA, when they should not be here in the first place.
Guess what? People being harassed for papers - and you're not likely to be one of them, so it's all easy for you to say - will not rid the USA of criminals. And I don't know about you, but I don't feel any better about being murdered by someone with an American birth certificate than by someone without one. Violent criminals are violent criminals and should be viewed with contempt for committing violent crimes. It doesn't matter if they're should have been here in the first place or not. (I swear... I feel like you're now saying that "our" criminals are better than "their" criminals.)
why uphold the status quo that you have experienced for 22 years if it hurts your state in many different ways economically and socially?
I asked you specifically, twice, but you have not demonstrated that the status quo hurts my state economically and socially. (Socially?) I have read many a source, however, that shows that undocumented immigrants don't hurt our economy (and some that say they help it), and have known many an undocumented immigrant who has shown me that they often enrich our lives socially.
how would you identify illegal immigrants in the US and ask them why they came to America and fix the problem to prevent it from happening?
Well I don't think you really have to do focus groups with undocumented immigrants in the US to know why they come here, but you certainly could. You'd have to start by inspiring their trust in you, though, if you really wanted them to talk to you and be honest. It's not hard to identify undocumented immigrants if they don't fear deportation. I meet them every day at my job, and this is how I identify them: I ask, "Do you have papers?" "Do you have a social security number?" or "Are you a US citizen or legal resident?" and when they say no I have identified them. Regardless, there is already plenty of documentation about why people come here illegally.
Fixing the problem is a much bigger story. You want to know how I'd do it? I'd repeal NAFTA and CAFTA and regulate that American corporations can't fuck over people from other countries for their own benefit. You want to know what YOU can do to help reduce illegal immigration to this country? Buy fair trade.
well that fact that he was murdered in the US by Americans would mean that the police would investigate the murder using certain identification tools to find the murderers. By being illegal there is no way to investigate any further who killed Americans, since there is no way to identify them, which is one example of how they hurt Arizona socially. I do not favor American murderers over illegal immigrant murderers, as much as that may disappoint you. of course the chances of being killed by an American are greater, there are estimates of about 12 million illegals in America, which only a minuscule percentage would even pose a physical threat. economically not only should illegal immigrants be targeted in law but employers who hire them for ridiculously low wages. this law puts pressure on the federal government to do something about this issue. but it seems like you are already doing your part by working for an employer who exploits these people for their cheap labor. quote away...
well that fact that he was murdered in the US by Americans would mean that the police would investigate the murder using certain identification tools to find the murderers. By being illegal there is no way to investigate any further who killed Americans, since there is no way to identify them, which is one example of how they hurt Arizona socially.
Wow. That's one I've never heard before! So there are all kinds of special identification tools used to find American murderers that can't be used to find illegal immigrant murderers, huh? What, pray tell, are these tools? And there is no way to investigate murders committed by illegal immigrants, huh? Surely you must have more faith in our law enforcement than that. Tell me though, if police can't investigate murders committed by illegal immigrants, how do we even know all these illegal immigrants have committed murders? And how have we arrested and prosecuted so many of them?
but it seems like you are already doing your part by working for an employer who exploits these people for their cheap labor. quote away...
Wow, aren't you just the ignorant, presumptuous, dumb-fuck! I work for a state hospital, asshole. Part of my job is to give Medicaid to the American citizens and tell the "illegals" that they can't get the ultrasounds, lab work, or birth control they need because our federal government requires us to charge them up the ass. (They pay more than insurance companies do, by the way.) But now that I see that your system of reasoning has no basis in fact, I better understand why you are unable to support some of the other bullshit claims you have made. :roll:
PWNED. im not a dumb fuck, but presumptuous i guess :oops: nor am i an asshole. fingerprint databases, motor vehicle license databases, eye witnesses.
None of those things are exclusive to legal immigrants or citizens. Most people's prints aren't in databases until they have been booked for a crime. Illegal immigrants get booked and fingerprinted just like the rest of us. I would actually guess that we're more likely to have the prints of illegal immigrants on file because they are more likely to get arrested due to their undocumented status. Illegal immigrants are also in motor vehicle license databases. Many states, including mine, allow illegal immigrants to get legal driver's licenses. So if a state doesn't have license databases for illegal immigrants, that's only because they chose not to. (I bet many are in even those databased though.) And eye witnesses? How exactly do you figure that there are only eye witnesses for crimes committed by legal residents?? :?
ok. your right. all of your information is backed up completely. i have no way of arguing with you anymore. i still agree with the law and the recent amendments to it. i guess i am a dumb fuck after all. thank you for opening my eyes. i feel like you should be the governor of Arizona with all of your wisdom and acumen. i cannot take credit for the NH state motto.
PWNED. im not a dumb fuck, but presumptuous i guess :oops: nor am i an asshole. fingerprint databases, motor vehicle license databases, eye witnesses.
I'm sorry I called you a dumb-fuck and an asshole. While I think your assumption about me and your comment were dumb-fuck-ish and asshole-ish, I'll take your word that you, as a person, are not a dumb-fuck or an asshole.
PWNED. im not a dumb fuck, but presumptuous i guess :oops: nor am i an asshole. fingerprint databases, motor vehicle license databases, eye witnesses.
None of those things are exclusive to legal immigrants or citizens. Most people's prints aren't in databases until they have been booked for a crime. Illegal immigrants get booked and fingerprinted just like the rest of us. I would actually guess that we're more likely to have the prints of illegal immigrants on file because they are more likely to get arrested due to their undocumented status. Illegal immigrants are also in motor vehicle license databases. Many states, including mine, allow illegal immigrants to get legal driver's licenses. So if a state doesn't have license databases for illegal immigrants, that's only because they chose not to. (I bet many are in even those databased though.) And eye witnesses? How exactly do you figure that there are only eye witnesses for crimes committed by legal residents?? :?
My stance is not to give them a license. My ex used to deal with them all the time because I'm near a heavily populated area of Mexicans. They never had insurance or licenses so she used to have their vehicles towed all of the time.
I've heard of or seen three accidents where I suspected illegals involvement. The first was at work where I used to build houses, a car full backed into a colleagues car. They tried to give him $10 not to call the police and to fix the damage to his fender. As soon as I got on the phone three got out and started running. Another colleague had his daughter killed by an illegal alien in a car accident, he was drunk too. My uncle had to box in another with his car when this person attempted to flee the scene in his car after causing an accident.
So my stance is to keep them off the streets.
Oh and I also think they should pay more for medical services than citizens. Enough of this going to the ER because their kids have the sniffles.
Comments
I'm pretty sure though that if the Tea Party people chose to use this form of civil disobedience she wouldn't have a problem with it. We used this method in protesting the Vietnam War, Civil Rights SitIn in Greensboro NC. You do remember the time when in our American History we (when I say we I mean white people) refused to serve people of color at lunch counters. They chose to sitin until served, they weren't and were spit on, food poured on and finally arrested. It worked as the sitins caught on and businesses started to lose money around the South.
So civil disobedience does work and can work, one of the BEST American ways of protesting.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Since your original comment was about me and now you've clarified what you meant, I'll reply by challenging you to provide one example of a post where I either said immigrants should be allowed to break the law or hurled blanket, unwarranted insults at the Tea Party as a whole. (Balls on Face Party? Really?? Does that even sound remotely like something I would say? :roll: )
I don't know what your problem is, but you keep making all these claims against me and not once have you ever demonstrated that anything you've said is true. So if you're going to stick with your MO of insulting me when you don't have a valid rebuttal, please have at least some ability to support your claims.
Sounds familiar:
Invisible privilege is what you’re experiencing when you tell someone outside your race, gender, class, etc., “I don’t know why you’recomplaining; the system works just fine for for me.”
I'm pretty sure he IS a white American male. And I'm pretty sure conservative Republicans aren't a race.
Why all the comparisons of the Tea Parties to the protesters of the AZ law? What's the point? Do you actually think if one group does something wrong then the other group is automatically exalted? It sounds like little kids at a playground. One kid calls someone names and gets in trouble for it and then when another kid trips someone the first kid says, "Oh yeah? Well HE tripped someone!!" as if that means it's now okay for him to continue to call people names. Where's the grown up logic here?
Really? Carrying around my original birth certificate, which is fragile and should be kept in a safe deposit box, and doesn't fit in a wallet (no, I cannot get a wallet-sized one) should not be a problem? Really?? You don't see how this could easily lead to damage or theft of the document? I frequently don't carry purses or wallets when I go out anyway. I can just see myself now at a fancy dinner in my little black dress with no pockets (which I don't need anyway because I'm not buying or driving), having to carry around my fucking birth certificate. If the government wants me to carry mine around, they'd better buy me a nice clutch to match every one of my nice dresses.
That's right and you should be treated like a lady in those nice dresses.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Seriously? Those who support the bill say those who oppose it are overreacting by thinking they'll be made to provide documentation of citizenship because of the law... but you don't think it's a wee bit of an overreaction to suggest that without it you'll be gunned down by a drug runner with an AK-47? Seriously???
As for the people who have been killed, we've been over this SOOO many fucking times! For one thing, how dare you even suggest that we don't care about those people and their rights?! Secondly, those people were killed by people who were violent criminals as a primary identity, who happened to also be illegal entrants into this country. (I won't say immigrants, because I don't think they even lived here.) Unless you are suggesting that all illegal immigrants are violent criminals - or even that most violent criminals are illegal immigrants - your argument is not rational. If you want to prevent this from happening, deal with the VIOLENT CRIMINALS (whether illegal, legal, Hispanic, white, or whatever), not the illegal immigrants. Not only is this law failing to address the real problem (which is why so many believe it's motivated by prejudice), but many groups of Arizona police have come out and said that it's going to drain the resources they need to fight violent crime. Even if we all hated Mexicans and were fine with that, if we respect the rights of the ranchers on the border to not be murdered we should oppose this law because it puts them at greater risk!
She slaps the camera like an actress chased by paparazzi, then everyone stands around and talks to him with reasonable debate.
THE VIOLENCE!!
THE CHAOSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!
:crazy:
EXACTLY! Thank you! I'm pissed at the people who would destroy the foundation of this great nation of ours just for their own self-interest. And great song - very apropos!
Geeze Louise aerial! - are you capable of rational thought?!?!?! YOU DO NOT TEAR GAS A CROWD FULL OF INNOCENT PEOPLE AS A WAY TO PROTECT THEM FROM POSSIBLY BEING HIT BY A PLASTIC BOTTLE THAT IS BEING THROWN AT A SPECIFIC TARGET!!!!
(Please, as a courtesy to me and my loved ones who I would like to protect, please just tell me where you live and what you do for a living so I can try to keep them safe. Seriously. I'm not kidding. :( )
I haven't even yet had a chance to address the bottle-throwing because you were too busy arguing about violence that never happened. So, about the bottle-throwing....
1. It was violent, it was wrong, and it shouldn't have happened.
2. I think you're blowing it out of proportion, which doesn't help your cause.
i didn't suggest anything. i just posed a question so maybe you should relax. I simply would like to present papers as opposed to the alternative of possible death. what if you knew a rancher or one of the police officers that was killed by an apparent illegal? again this is called a hypothetical question and not meant to be taken so personally...so if it is going to drain the resources would it not be easier to just deport illegals as opposed to waiting for them to commit a crime and then waster more tax money? appeasement led to many debacles in history, this is no exception. i would also respond by saying all illegal immigrants may not be violent, but they most certainly are criminals by definition. so again...what would you do differently to enforce the prevention of illegal immigration if this law is such a disgrace to America?
Why, thank you, sir!
So those are our only two options? Documentation or death? Is there any chance there might be a third option... like, say, not having to be harassed for papers and still not being murdered? Because I'm pretty sure this 3rd option has been the case for me for the 33 years I've lived in this country and the 20 years I've lived on the Mexican border. Documentation or death is not even something I've ever heard of before.
And I would like to know more about this alternative of possible death. What exactly does that mean? What is the probability that, without this law, I will be murdered by an illegal immigrant? Because I'm pretty sure I have a better chance of dying from being struck by lightening than being killed by an illegal Mexican drug runner. And I'm significantly more afraid of being killed by a legal American citizen.
But it's not hypothetical, because I have personally experienced similar situations. My ex-boyfriend was brutally murdered by several American Indian men... in Arizona, even. This happens there more than you probably think. This was the 5th (fifth) time one of my friends was murdered by Indians in AZ. And just last July another one of my best friends was beaten nearly to death by a couple Indians in AZ, only surviving because some people heard the commotion and came to help, though he'll never be the same. And you know what? Not once have I ever felt like Indians in Arizona should be profiled because of it. And not once has the state of Arizona tried to enact a law that would do so.
Not according to the rules of logic or the law enforcement of Arizona.
Who among us is not a criminal by definition? Have you never broken any law?? Should we all be profiled because of the violent criminals of our same race and nationality and because we are also criminals?
Don't say "again;" this is totally not the same question you asked before. Ideally, if I wanted to prevent illegal immigration, I would look at the root cause of why people immigrate illegally and stop doing the things we do to create that cause.
He and my friends were murdered by one particular race of people from one particular sovereign nation. There is a huge problem of people in Arizona being killed by illegal murderers who belong to this specific group and nation. I believe it's an even bigger problem than people being killed by illegal immigrants. And yet you haven't heard about that in the news medias all over the country, like you've heard about the 2 men who were killed by illegal immigrants. If Arizona really wanted to crack down on crime, they would crack down on the people who are committing most of the crime. And if were right to blame a whole group of people for the violent crimes of a few, then we should be blaming this Indian nation as well. And if having a loved one murdered should inspire people to blame a whole group of people for the violent crimes of a few, then I should regard the people of this Indian nation with the same contempt with which people now think they have a right to regard the race and nation of Mexican illegal immigrants.
:? :?
Guess what? People being harassed for papers - and you're not likely to be one of them, so it's all easy for you to say - will not rid the USA of criminals. And I don't know about you, but I don't feel any better about being murdered by someone with an American birth certificate than by someone without one. Violent criminals are violent criminals and should be viewed with contempt for committing violent crimes. It doesn't matter if they're should have been here in the first place or not. (I swear... I feel like you're now saying that "our" criminals are better than "their" criminals.)
I asked you specifically, twice, but you have not demonstrated that the status quo hurts my state economically and socially. (Socially?) I have read many a source, however, that shows that undocumented immigrants don't hurt our economy (and some that say they help it), and have known many an undocumented immigrant who has shown me that they often enrich our lives socially.
Well I don't think you really have to do focus groups with undocumented immigrants in the US to know why they come here, but you certainly could. You'd have to start by inspiring their trust in you, though, if you really wanted them to talk to you and be honest. It's not hard to identify undocumented immigrants if they don't fear deportation. I meet them every day at my job, and this is how I identify them: I ask, "Do you have papers?" "Do you have a social security number?" or "Are you a US citizen or legal resident?" and when they say no I have identified them. Regardless, there is already plenty of documentation about why people come here illegally.
Fixing the problem is a much bigger story. You want to know how I'd do it? I'd repeal NAFTA and CAFTA and regulate that American corporations can't fuck over people from other countries for their own benefit. You want to know what YOU can do to help reduce illegal immigration to this country? Buy fair trade.
Wow. That's one I've never heard before! So there are all kinds of special identification tools used to find American murderers that can't be used to find illegal immigrant murderers, huh? What, pray tell, are these tools? And there is no way to investigate murders committed by illegal immigrants, huh? Surely you must have more faith in our law enforcement than that. Tell me though, if police can't investigate murders committed by illegal immigrants, how do we even know all these illegal immigrants have committed murders? And how have we arrested and prosecuted so many of them?
Wow, aren't you just the ignorant, presumptuous, dumb-fuck! I work for a state hospital, asshole. Part of my job is to give Medicaid to the American citizens and tell the "illegals" that they can't get the ultrasounds, lab work, or birth control they need because our federal government requires us to charge them up the ass. (They pay more than insurance companies do, by the way.) But now that I see that your system of reasoning has no basis in fact, I better understand why you are unable to support some of the other bullshit claims you have made. :roll:
Yo Yo... New Hampshire... LIVE FREE OR DIE!
None of those things are exclusive to legal immigrants or citizens. Most people's prints aren't in databases until they have been booked for a crime. Illegal immigrants get booked and fingerprinted just like the rest of us. I would actually guess that we're more likely to have the prints of illegal immigrants on file because they are more likely to get arrested due to their undocumented status. Illegal immigrants are also in motor vehicle license databases. Many states, including mine, allow illegal immigrants to get legal driver's licenses. So if a state doesn't have license databases for illegal immigrants, that's only because they chose not to. (I bet many are in even those databased though.) And eye witnesses? How exactly do you figure that there are only eye witnesses for crimes committed by legal residents?? :?
You mean a life where you're not free to live without carrying documentation at all times is not worth living?
I'm sorry I called you a dumb-fuck and an asshole. While I think your assumption about me and your comment were dumb-fuck-ish and asshole-ish, I'll take your word that you, as a person, are not a dumb-fuck or an asshole.
:thumbup: I love thy neighbor!
My stance is not to give them a license. My ex used to deal with them all the time because I'm near a heavily populated area of Mexicans. They never had insurance or licenses so she used to have their vehicles towed all of the time.
I've heard of or seen three accidents where I suspected illegals involvement. The first was at work where I used to build houses, a car full backed into a colleagues car. They tried to give him $10 not to call the police and to fix the damage to his fender. As soon as I got on the phone three got out and started running. Another colleague had his daughter killed by an illegal alien in a car accident, he was drunk too. My uncle had to box in another with his car when this person attempted to flee the scene in his car after causing an accident.
So my stance is to keep them off the streets.
Oh and I also think they should pay more for medical services than citizens. Enough of this going to the ER because their kids have the sniffles.