Boycott Anything Involving AZ

_

Godfather. wrote:

one world ?
one people ?
your thoughts are very nice, try taking your ideas to another country and see how far it gets you

We take the one world idea to other countries all the time! And it's gotten us far. We're all in support of one world, globalization, etc. when it serves our interests and allows us to exploit others. It's fucking hypocritcal to try to act like this is a bad idea only when it doesn't benefit us.

pandora

tonifig8 wrote:

pandora wrote:

OutOfBreath wrote:

You really sure you really want to compare yourselves with N Korea, China etc? I thought you make a point out of being better than those...

You can always find worse places in the world if you look hard enough. That doesn't mean your own place is beyond any reproach.

Peace
Dan

I saw your point when first reading this email, they are not countries I want to be likened to either. The author though has made his point on how our country and its working class are being taken advantage of. While showing the hard line strength of other countries to protect their own people.
The free meal ticket stops here. We no longer can afford to take care of the world. Our country is in ruin. Our children's children will be enslaved to pay for the mistakes being made now.
Of course, this could quite possibly be the plan. Enslavement. When a people needs their government power to take care of them they have lost their freedom.

You really need to stop watching Glen Beck.
When you say "Mistakes being made now", do you feel that the cause of our deficit being so high is because of the current decisions being made?

Illegal immigrants contribute 9 billion a year just on Social Security. They contribute billions more in taxes....
Do you really think our nation could afford to simply ad 20 million people to welfare?

Let the Glen Beck thing go, you don't know who you are talking to but you label immediately. Another symptom of a closed mind.
I do aplogize. I did post early on and have not read through it all but I can still have an opinion and point to make. Its just not the one you want to hear if it was you wouldn't be so sassy.
I am in my original post asking our President what is to be done about this problem that is all. I am not the author of the email but feel what we are giving illegals needs to be stopped because we can not afford it. The current deficit is not caused by this but in the future it will be contributing even more if allowed to continue.
We all agree its a problem but how to fix is the question.

aerial

pandora wrote:

OutOfBreath wrote:

You really sure you really want to compare yourselves with N Korea, China etc? I thought you make a point out of being better than those...

You can always find worse places in the world if you look hard enough. That doesn't mean your own place is beyond any reproach.

Peace
Dan

I saw your point when first reading this email, they are not countries I want to be likened to either. The author though has made his point on how our country and its working class are being taken advantage of. While showing the hard line strength of other countries to protect their own people.
The free meal ticket stops here. We no longer can afford to take care of the world. Our country is in ruin. Our children's children will be enslaved to pay for the mistakes being made now.
Of course, this could quite possibly be the plan. Enslavement. When a people needs their government power to take care of them they have lost their freedom.

polaris_x

pandora wrote:

Let the Glen Beck thing go, you don't know who you are talking to but you label immediately. Another symptom of a closed mind.
I do aplogize. I did post early on and have not read through it all but I can still have an opinion and point to make. Its just not the one you want to hear if it was you wouldn't be so sassy.
I am in my original post asking our President what is to be done about this problem that is all. I am not the author of the email but feel what we are giving illegals needs to be stopped because we can not afford it. The current deficit is not caused by this but in the future it will be contributing even more if allowed to continue.
We all agree its a problem but how to fix is the question.

in most objective studies - it is shown that illegal workers contribute more to state and federal coffers than they receive ... giving them residency or citizenship would change that however, we are talking about illegals here so your case for supporting an obviously hate-based piece of legislation is flawed ...

pandora

Now on to more pressing problems, like finding a new pair of jeans to wear to see my favorite band! 4 days and counting!! And really finding the jeans is a major undertaking, figuring out the border trouble might be easier
I will leave you to your debate, I really dislike debate, you know. Hope everybody is

pandora

polaris_x wrote:

pandora wrote:

Let the Glen Beck thing go, you don't know who you are talking to but you label immediately. Another symptom of a closed mind.
I do aplogize. I did post early on and have not read through it all but I can still have an opinion and point to make. Its just not the one you want to hear if it was you wouldn't be so sassy.
I am in my original post asking our President what is to be done about this problem that is all. I am not the author of the email but feel what we are giving illegals needs to be stopped because we can not afford it. The current deficit is not caused by this but in the future it will be contributing even more if allowed to continue.
We all agree its a problem but how to fix is the question.

in most objective studies - it is shown that illegal workers contribute more to state and federal coffers than they receive ... giving them residency or citizenship would change that however, we are talking about illegals here so your case for supporting an obviously hate-based piece of legislation is flawed ...

oops never said I supported hate based anything oops anyways fashion is calling enjoy!

GTFLYGIRL

unsung wrote:

LOL


I hope more states follow suit.

break up families.

more kids in foster care.

who is paying for them?

certainly, i'm sure you wouldn't think it should be YOUR tax dollars... do you?

mikepegg44

scb wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

It's funny how people rationalize the simple fact of being born in a particular location equates to automatic entitlement to so many basic and fundamental human rights, and because we draw lines on the ground and say this is ours and theirs, it dis-allows others to have the same. Where is people's sense of humanity - seriously? Do you really feel that because your ancestry or family situated in a nation it gives you the entitlement to display outcry when people are merely trying to live normal, just lives? At what point do we all just look in the mirror and acknowledge that because we as a society expect things, it affords us the entitlement to disallow others those same basic freedoms? And just to be clear, the vast majority of the people we're discussing aren't criminals or similar, it's merely workers seeking to support their families.. nothing more. We expect others to treat our nation with respect or dignity and values, yet we do not show do that... it's pathetic and hypocritical to say the least.

Exactly! In all of this discussion about immigration & immigrants, we completely fail to acknowedge that the way of life we think we, above others, are entitled to is created BY OUR EXPLOITATION of other peoples. WE are a huge part of the reason so many in this world are so impoverished that they feel the need to come here just to survive. How dare we even suggest that we are somehow more entitled to a basic standard of living than they are! I say, if we want to close our borders completely to immigration because we don't like what immigrants our doing to our country, that's fine with me as long as we repeal NAFTA & close our borders also to our multinational corporations, who should also not be allowed to go out into the world & fuck up other people's societies.

As far as our entitlement goes, I heard a great quote yesterday about human rights: "If access to healthcare [or anything else] is considered a human right, who is considered human enough to have that right?" -Paul Farmer, MD

No, access to medical care is not a right. It isn't. It isn't in our bill of rights, it isn't anywhere. It might be something that would be good for everyone, but it isn't a right.

On topic, no one is saying don't come here... they are saying come here legally please

JS81606

I just do not understand the gripes so many have made. AZ made a choice. Their choice. It is not wrong or right, but a choice. It seems to me that when emotions get involved, the ego isn't far behind and everything gets blown up and nasty. If....and it is a big if, if we are able to look at the bottom line here, what is it that irritates at the core level. Money? Human Rights? Job Security? Just what has everyone so inflamed. History has shown, countless times those who have less want what those who have more of. Yet, it has also been heard that with the accumulation of "Stuff" whether it be $, Belongings, Power, what-not it made the person wish they had less. I just think AZ is trying a new angle to see how it fares. Nothing more, nothing less. As I read posts I am continually assualted with us vs them and that entire scenario. Who is us, and who are "them". I look at politics like a bunch of ticks, those little blood sucking creatures, and there are many of those in this country telling everyone what to do and how to be. If I mind my own business, guess what, I seem to be immune to most things. Sure I get ushered aside at the airport more than most. Sure when I walk into the bank and the teller says, "you must have a wonderful boss to trust you with "x" amount of cash" but it is just people being people. I could come up with fifty reasons to boycott all fifty states. Granted Minnesota would be a challenge, but I could do it.

I happen to be extremely bored at the office today and have been reading posts all AM. If you find what wrote off topic, boring, not worthy of comments, good.....

FiveB247x

Not to be rude, but what the hell are you talking about? Enslavement of who and by whom exactly? And at what point in US history have we "taken care of the world" exactly?

pandora wrote:

I saw your point when first reading this email, they are not countries I want to be likened to either. The author though has made his point on how our country and its working class are being taken advantage of. While showing the hard line strength of other countries to protect their own people.
The free meal ticket stops here. We no longer can afford to take care of the world. Our country is in ruin. Our children's children will be enslaved to pay for the mistakes being made now.
Of course, this could quite possibly be the plan. Enslavement. When a people needs their government power to take care of them they have lost their freedom.

GTFLYGIRL

mikepegg44 wrote:

scb wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

It's funny how people rationalize the simple fact of being born in a particular location equates to automatic entitlement to so many basic and fundamental human rights, and because we draw lines on the ground and say this is ours and theirs, it dis-allows others to have the same. Where is people's sense of humanity - seriously? Do you really feel that because your ancestry or family situated in a nation it gives you the entitlement to display outcry when people are merely trying to live normal, just lives? At what point do we all just look in the mirror and acknowledge that because we as a society expect things, it affords us the entitlement to disallow others those same basic freedoms? And just to be clear, the vast majority of the people we're discussing aren't criminals or similar, it's merely workers seeking to support their families.. nothing more. We expect others to treat our nation with respect or dignity and values, yet we do not show do that... it's pathetic and hypocritical to say the least.

Exactly! In all of this discussion about immigration & immigrants, we completely fail to acknowedge that the way of life we think we, above others, are entitled to is created BY OUR EXPLOITATION of other peoples. WE are a huge part of the reason so many in this world are so impoverished that they feel the need to come here just to survive. How dare we even suggest that we are somehow more entitled to a basic standard of living than they are! I say, if we want to close our borders completely to immigration because we don't like what immigrants our doing to our country, that's fine with me as long as we repeal NAFTA & close our borders also to our multinational corporations, who should also not be allowed to go out into the world & fuck up other people's societies.

As far as our entitlement goes, I heard a great quote yesterday about human rights: "If access to healthcare [or anything else] is considered a human right, who is considered human enough to have that right?" -Paul Farmer, MD

No, access to medical care is not a right. It isn't. It isn't in our bill of rights, it isn't anywhere. It might be something that would be good for everyone, but it isn't a right.

On topic, no one is saying don't come here... they are saying come here legally please

so they should tighten up the borders

racial profiling and arresting people that don't have "documentation" in their pockets is just down-right unamerican... but then again so is torture (i.e water-boarding) and a lot of people think that is ok too....

i guess if they are not "really" american then the "all men are created equal" bullshit really IS just bullshit (as we know it kind of is anyway... right?)

FiveB247x

The right to medical care being a core value is a separate discussion.

But can you list some legitimate reasons why anyone would and should go through the immigration process which benefits them in the long term? Not a very difficult question, but when you ask it, you slowly realize it's not a practical, inclusive or beneficial resolve to this problem. Just put yourself in the shoes of one of these people and you clearly understand why this issue is really not black and white.

mikepegg44 wrote:

No, access to medical care is not a right. It isn't. It isn't in our bill of rights, it isn't anywhere. It might be something that would be good for everyone, but it isn't a right.

On topic, no one is saying don't come here... they are saying come here legally please

mikepegg44

tonifig8 wrote:

I don't understand, what hand outs?
Have you even taken the time to read through this thread? Have you looked at the facts? Have you looked at the statements people have made? You post your email, with out going through the debate taking place on this thread....
Really???

What handouts?
Health care for one. Illegal immigrants can present at a hospital and be taken care of and who pays for it? who gets that bill? All of us do. It has to stop. I don't even want to pay for someone else's health care who is here legally, I sure as hell don't want to do it for someone who is not.
And don't tell me they pay taxes and that bull shit because not all of them do. The fact is that if they make as little as people claim then they in fact pay NO income taxes like about 47% of this country. So let's quit talking about how much they contribute as far as taxes go. Social security, sure, medicaid, sure, but they don't use MA when going to the hospital because they cannot apply for it because they have no legal status. They just show up. It is a huge cost burden, even at my clinic which is tiny in scope compared to most.

FiveB247x

Should we also deport people who don't have health insurance or don't pay their bills? Same exact result - we all pay - right?

mikepegg44 wrote:

What handouts?
Health care for one. Illegal immigrants can present at a hospital and be taken care of and who pays for it? who gets that bill? All of us do. It has to stop. I don't even want to pay for someone else's health care who is here legally, I sure as hell don't want to do it for someone who is not.
And don't tell me they pay taxes and that bull shit because not all of them do. The fact is that if they make as little as people claim then they in fact pay NO income taxes like about 47% of this country. So let's quit talking about how much they contribute as far as taxes go. Social security, sure, medicaid, sure, but they don't use MA when going to the hospital because they cannot apply for it because they have no legal status. They just show up. It is a huge cost burden, even at my clinic which is tiny in scope compared to most.

Godfather.

scb wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

one world ?
one people ?
your thoughts are very nice, try taking your ideas to another country and see how far it gets you

We take the one world idea to other countries all the time! And it's gotten us far. We're all in support of one world, globalization, etc. when it serves our interests and allows us to exploit others. It's fucking hypocritcal to try to act like this is a bad idea only when it doesn't benefit us.

wake up sunshine it will NEVER HAPPEN there is way too much power in the hands of way too many people !
dream on.

Godfather.

GTFLYGIRL

mikepegg44 wrote:

I don't even want to pay for someone else's health care who is here legally, I sure as hell don't want to do it for someone who is not. .

here's my question for all of those that are against paying for helathcare for the millions of children that don't have any... do you oppose paying for their education? do you not think education should be mandatory? if it's mandatory and paid for out of our tax dollars is it a socialist program? what the hell good is mandatory school if we don't even give a shit about keeping the little buggers alive and well?

mikepegg44 wrote:

It is a huge cost burden, even at my clinic which is tiny in scope compared to most.

sounds like you are burnt out and a clinic is probably no longer best suited to you at this point in time....

Godfather.

FiveB247x wrote:

Not to be rude, but what the hell are you talking about? Enslavement of who and by whom exactly? And at what point in US history have we "taken care of the world" exactly?

pandora wrote:

I saw your point when first reading this email, they are not countries I want to be likened to either. The author though has made his point on how our country and its working class are being taken advantage of. While showing the hard line strength of other countries to protect their own people.
The free meal ticket stops here. We no longer can afford to take care of the world. Our country is in ruin. Our children's children will be enslaved to pay for the mistakes being made now.
Of course, this could quite possibly be the plan. Enslavement. When a people needs their government power to take care of them they have lost their freedom.

from WWI and on probably.

Godfather.

Boxes&Books

JS81606 wrote:

I just do not understand the gripes so many have made. AZ made a choice. Their choice. It is not wrong or right, but a choice. It seems to me that when emotions get involved, the ego isn't far behind and everything gets blown up and nasty. If....and it is a big if, if we are able to look at the bottom line here, what is it that irritates at the core level. Money? Human Rights? Job Security? Just what has everyone so inflamed. History has shown, countless times those who have less want what those who have more of. Yet, it has also been heard that with the accumulation of "Stuff" whether it be $, Belongings, Power, what-not it made the person wish they had less. I just think AZ is trying a new angle to see how it fares. Nothing more, nothing less. As I read posts I am continually assualted with us vs them and that entire scenario. Who is us, and who are "them". I look at politics like a bunch of ticks, those little blood sucking creatures, and there are many of those in this country telling everyone what to do and how to be. If I mind my own business, guess what, I seem to be immune to most things. Sure I get ushered aside at the airport more than most. Sure when I walk into the bank and the teller says, "you must have a wonderful boss to trust you with "x" amount of cash" but it is just people being people. I could come up with fifty reasons to boycott all fifty states. Granted Minnesota would be a challenge, but I could do it.

I happen to be extremely bored at the office today and have been reading posts all AM. If you find what wrote off topic, boring, not worthy of comments, good.....

Welcome- the discussion- "Choice" is always good- the main reason of this thread was to boycott AZ- for its bad choice.
its a bad choice because it does nothing to solve the problem, it only promotes/creates hate.
70% of Arizonans supported this bill, 53% of those who supported it believed it would violate civil rights.... Why support this bill if it will create civil rights issues(more specifically Hispanics)? Making us second class citizens.
The bill was created by people involved with white supremacist groups- 1 million dollars have been donated by white supremacist groups to this cause.
But really how does the bill differ from the law of the land? Well it just gives more powers to police officers to basically promise not to harass people based on race - They are to simply use there best judgment- when going after undocumented people. They do not have to proper training - The Governor said it herself- that Police officers will begin training on this.....
Police officers cannot deport anyone, they can only hand them over to the FEDS- the FEDS are already overwhelmed with serious crimes....
This is going to cause more divide and more money because Citizens will not be calling police every time they see someone who they believe is an undocumented immigrant, and police will have to be addressing those calls. IT's going to nastier then it is now..... A lot of RACIAL tensions ..........
Hope this kind of sums it up for you.........

mikepegg44

FiveB247x wrote:

The right to medical care being a core value is a separate discussion.

But can you list some legitimate reasons why anyone would and should go through the immigration process which benefits them in the long term? Not a very difficult question, but when you ask it, you slowly realize it's not a practical, inclusive or beneficial resolve to this problem. Just put yourself in the shoes of one of these people and you clearly understand why this issue is really not black and white.

mikepegg44 wrote:

No, access to medical care is not a right. It isn't. It isn't in our bill of rights, it isn't anywhere. It might be something that would be good for everyone, but it isn't a right.

On topic, no one is saying don't come here... they are saying come here legally please

What you get from following the law, immunity to things like this law in Arizona for one. You get the right to vote, you get the right to work without fear of immigration coming and knocking at your door. Basically you get to be here and get afforded all the rights all of us get. Seems simple enough.

That is really a disturbing question that you asked, as if it is justified in breaking the laws of this country because they aren't the easy way of doing things. If you respect the laws, the country will respect you and give you all the rights and privileges everyone here thinks they deserve. does it take awhile, yes, but do you honestly think that you and I would have the same quality of life that we have now if we just opened our borders to everyone?
Let's forget about the people who hate us, but solely focus on those who just want to come here to better their life. If it was free and easy to come here, how many people in the world would come? I a conservative estimate is 5%. That is 5% of the 6.8 billion people in the world, that is 340,000,000 more people in the country. Do you honestly think we can sustain that? The same people who are complaining because the government isn't creating more jobs are the same ones wanting the god damn borders to be open and free. When you look at it that way it seems pretty simple to me.
and another thing, we, unlike most EU countries that so many want to emmulate, still have birth right citizenship for christ's sake. It is unsustainable.

FiveB247x

America has not really been in any war or military engagement with altruistic measures since WW2 and even that can be debated. Being a world power or even super power doesn't mean we're doing things for others benefit in any manner.

Godfather. wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

Not to be rude, but what the hell are you talking about? Enslavement of who and by whom exactly? And at what point in US history have we "taken care of the world" exactly?

pandora wrote:

I saw your point when first reading this email, they are not countries I want to be likened to either. The author though has made his point on how our country and its working class are being taken advantage of. While showing the hard line strength of other countries to protect their own people.
The free meal ticket stops here. We no longer can afford to take care of the world. Our country is in ruin. Our children's children will be enslaved to pay for the mistakes being made now.
Of course, this could quite possibly be the plan. Enslavement. When a people needs their government power to take care of them they have lost their freedom.

from WWI and on probably.

Godfather.