another student shot in school
Comments
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rebornFixer wrote:gimmesometruth27 wrote:i am not arguing against that. i am talking about in general, without access to handguns this crime would not have happened.
yeah so punches and getting in a schoolyard fight rarely causes a death. in this case, the gun was what caused the kid to die. period, end of story. people have violent urges, but if the kid did not have the gun would the victim still be alive today? i would say yes.
did the gun contribute to this crime yes or no??
Of course. It was a gun crime, and like someone else said earlier in the thread, who actually opposes the idea of keeping guns out of kid's hands? I don't. I do believe in gun laws that work, including safe storage laws, the need for gun permits before a sale is completed, etc. What I don't believe in is the simple argument that guns are the main problem here. Guns have NO power to create a kid who is so distressed and pissed off that he decides to go shoot up a school. Sure, I am on board with the idea of making guns less available to these sorts of kids. This would save lives. I also think that these people need clinical help, too. Taking away the gun would save lifes (a hugely important goal) but you'd still be left with 1) a disordered kid and 2) the social circumstances that promote the creation of more disordered kids.
how do you explain that so many times that nobody including parents and teachers knows that the kid is "disordered" until after he/she blows some of their fellow students away?"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
i can guarantee you this, if a person wants to kill someone,if they don't have a gun they will find something else to do the job....gimmesometruth27 wrote:
what are you even talking about? so posting the ten commandments is posting the only rules? i can guarantee you this, if a person wants to kill someone, showing them the "thou shalt not kill" commandment is not going to stop them...aerial wrote:gimmesometruth27 wrote:how in the world did a thread about someone getting murdered at a school morph into a discussion about prayer in school and the need for grandparents to be involved in a kid's life? can we PLEASE try to stay on topic here??
does anyone have a link about this story? i would like to read up on it because i am curious about the facts in this case, not people's hypotheses on why bothering god via prayer in school could have prevented it, or that the bullet was in some way not responsible for anything....seeing a sign with the ten commandments is not going to make people pause and think about their actions, its just like how every quarter mile there is a speed limit sign on the highway, people see them and just ignore them and do whatever speed they want to do anyway...[/quote]
Thats my point some follow the rules (values, morals) some don't....but if they don't know what the rules are What Then?.....Don't know about the rest of you but I do the speed limit“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln0 -
gimmesometruth27 wrote:how do you explain that so many times that nobody including parents and teachers knows that the kid is "disordered" until after he/she blows some of their fellow students away?
Have you ever assessed someone with a clinical depression? One of the hallmarks is social isolation. These people feel completely alienated, and they may also feel that no one can be trusted to help them even if they do speak up. Many school shooters are powerless individuals with long histories of being bullied and socially rejected. Of course they often keep their difficulties to themselves, which is itself a huge part of the problem. And for the record, there often ARE warning signs. The Virginia Tech shooter was even seeing a therapist at one point, and had been accessed on an inpatient unit! People ignoring these signs probably ups the danger level dramatically.0 -
rebornFixer wrote:gimmesometruth27 wrote:
yes i was. now are you gonna answer my question or not?rebornFixer wrote:
Weren't you just the guy scolding people for dragging this thread off-topic?
I responded to your other post. The Israel-Palestine issue doesn't not warrant a response here.
is it because you can't go thread after thread for days defending isreal and applying that same logic here, that it is the people and not the weapons responsible for the deaths? that would be an indictment on isreal then would it not?? you can't have it both ways reborn...you are more cerebral than that..."You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
gimmesometruth27 wrote:rebornFixer wrote:gimmesometruth27 wrote:i am not arguing against that. i am talking about in general, without access to handguns this crime would not have happened.
yeah so punches and getting in a schoolyard fight rarely causes a death. in this case, the gun was what caused the kid to die. period, end of story. people have violent urges, but if the kid did not have the gun would the victim still be alive today? i would say yes.
did the gun contribute to this crime yes or no??
Of course. It was a gun crime, and like someone else said earlier in the thread, who actually opposes the idea of keeping guns out of kid's hands? I don't. I do believe in gun laws that work, including safe storage laws, the need for gun permits before a sale is completed, etc. What I don't believe in is the simple argument that guns are the main problem here. Guns have NO power to create a kid who is so distressed and pissed off that he decides to go shoot up a school. Sure, I am on board with the idea of making guns less available to these sorts of kids. This would save lives. I also think that these people need clinical help, too. Taking away the gun would save lifes (a hugely important goal) but you'd still be left with 1) a disordered kid and 2) the social circumstances that promote the creation of more disordered kids.
how do you explain that so many times that nobody including parents and teachers knows that the kid is "disordered" until after he/she blows some of their fellow students away?
Because no one is paying attention to them....to busy with there own life maybe....or maybe they were never taught the value of life and respect for others (parent or child)....“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln0 -
you don't need to tell me about clinical depression and i agree with you here. but the gun was necessary to kill the kid in this case. there usually are warning signs but people either a) fail to recognize them, or b) decide to ignore them since the kid's business is not their own.rebornFixer wrote:gimmesometruth27 wrote:how do you explain that so many times that nobody including parents and teachers knows that the kid is "disordered" until after he/she blows some of their fellow students away?
Have you ever assessed someone with a clinical depression? One of the hallmarks is social isolation. These people feel completely alienated, and they may also feel that no one can be trusted to help them even if they do speak up. Many school shooters are powerless individuals with long histories of being bullied and socially rejected. Of course they often keep their difficulties to themselves, which is itself a huge part of the problem. And for the record, there often ARE warning signs. The Virginia Tech shooter was even seeing a therapist at one point, and had been accessed on an inpatient unit! People ignoring these signs probably ups the danger level dramatically."You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
gimmesometruth27 wrote:is it because you can't go thread after thread for days defending isreal and applying that same logic here, that it is the people and not the weapons responsible for the deaths? that would be an indictment on isreal then would it not?? you can't have it both ways reborn...you are more cerebral than that...
Thanks, I think. Anyhow, if your goal is to get me to admit that the Israelis are responsible for all those Palestinian deaths, you got it. Its the Israelis. Their weaponry wouldn't work without people behind the helm. That's really not all that different from what I said numerous times in those very Israel threads. You've got me pegged (along with yosi) as some sort of crazed Zionist bloodmonger, and yes, I am reluctant to keep arguing that issue because you guys have already made up your minds about my character. 0 -
gimmesometruth27 wrote:you don't need to tell me about clinical depression and i agree with you here. but the gun was necessary to kill the kid in this case. there usually are warning signs but people either a) fail to recognize them, or b) decide to ignore them since the kid's business is not their own.
Bingo. So, we 1) try to keep guns out of kids' hands and 2) improve outreach services and mental health awareness and boom ... We've got ourselves a prevention program. I have no qualms about keeping guns away from kids. I just feel that the mental health issues need to be addressed as well.0 -
now we are getting somewhere. my only problem with that is how are you going to pick up on the mental issues without screening everybody from kindergarden on? i would not be opposed to it, but logistically and costwise it could be considered prohibitive, but if we could do it and prevent these kinds of shootings i would be all for it. but what about the people that make it all the way through school and go shoot up their place of employment just the same?rebornFixer wrote:gimmesometruth27 wrote:you don't need to tell me about clinical depression and i agree with you here. but the gun was necessary to kill the kid in this case. there usually are warning signs but people either a) fail to recognize them, or b) decide to ignore them since the kid's business is not their own.
Bingo. So, we 1) try to keep guns out of kids' hands and 2) improve outreach services and mental health awareness and boom ... We've got ourselves a prevention program. I have no qualms about keeping guns away from kids. I just feel that the mental health issues need to be addressed as well."You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
it was a compliment by the way, but i just found it difficult to believe you could take that same position in both instances. i was just trying to prove the point that without said weapons, there may be deaths, but just not in as great of numbers and with possibly fewer instances of violence.rebornFixer wrote:gimmesometruth27 wrote:is it because you can't go thread after thread for days defending isreal and applying that same logic here, that it is the people and not the weapons responsible for the deaths? that would be an indictment on isreal then would it not?? you can't have it both ways reborn...you are more cerebral than that... Thanks, I think. Anyhow, if your goal is to get me to admit that the Israelis are responsible for all those Palestinian deaths, you got it. Its the Israelis. Their weaponry wouldn't work without people behind the helm. That's really not all that different from what I said numerous times in those very Israel threads. You've got me pegged (along with yosi) as some sort of crazed Zionist bloodmonger, and yes, I am reluctant to keep arguing that issue because you guys have already made up your minds about my character."You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
now we are getting somewhere. my only problem with that is how are you going to pick up on the mental issues without screening everybody from kindergarden on? i would not be opposed to it, but logistically and costwise it could be considered prohibitive, but if we could do it and prevent these kinds of shootings i would be all for it. but what about the people that make it all the way through school and go shoot up their place of employment just the same?[/quote]gimmesometruth27 wrote:Bingo. So, we 1) try to keep guns out of kids' hands and 2) improve outreach services and mental health awareness and boom ... We've got ourselves a prevention program. I have no qualms about keeping guns away from kids. I just feel that the mental health issues need to be addressed as well.
No screening program is perfect and none is ever going to be perfect. There are going to be false negatives (just like there will be people who acquire guns despite strict laws). I am not certain that a really rigorous mental health screen is even the only possible answer ... Maybe just more education in school around mental health issues would increase people's awareness to the point where some prevention could happen. I also wonder if anti-bullying programs might also prevent violence ... These programs do apparently improve kid's self-esteem (even in small ways) and they do decrease bullying incidents. Maybe a greater emphasis on these programs would ultimately translate into fewer bitter, angry school shooters?0 -
I said "they say" and it does seem logical....kids were not shooting kids in school when I was going.....I think kids see the BS going on about how bad it is to say the Pledge of Allegiance...saying prayers...teachers can’t discipline kids in school....kids have no respect for teachers or anything else....is it the parents? is it the school? ....is it the trouble makers screwing with the American Culture....I have nothing against atheist......but why do they have a problem with me?....I don’t know the answers....I’m just pondering what the OP was asking.....What is making kids kill kids?keeponrockin wrote:
I grew up in an atheist household... I've yet to kill someone, yet to steal.aerial wrote:Thats my point some follow the rules (values, morals) some don't....but if they don't know what the rules are What Then?.....Don't know about the rest of you but I do the speed limit
And I'd like you to answer my other question. You said that there's been more school shootings, and tied in the fact of the removal of prayer in 1962. The march on Washington happened in 1963. Therefore, could one logically assume (from what you said) that this is because prayer was removed from schools?“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln0 -
The prayer in schools is just ridiculous. Religious people commit just as many crimes than non-religious people.
My boyfriend was raised in a catholic school, what I hear from him and a lot of people is the kids are actually worse in there for drugs and sex. Not a generalization for all catholic schools but an interesting observation I think.
You don't need to be religious to have morals... that kind of thinking just inspires more hate.live pearl jam is best pearl jam0 -
rebornFixer wrote:
now we are getting somewhere. my only problem with that is how are you going to pick up on the mental issues without screening everybody from kindergarden on? i would not be opposed to it, but logistically and costwise it could be considered prohibitive, but if we could do it and prevent these kinds of shootings i would be all for it. but what about the people that make it all the way through school and go shoot up their place of employment just the same?gimmesometruth27 wrote:Bingo. So, we 1) try to keep guns out of kids' hands and 2) improve outreach services and mental health awareness and boom ... We've got ourselves a prevention program. I have no qualms about keeping guns away from kids. I just feel that the mental health issues need to be addressed as well.
No screening program is perfect and none is ever going to be perfect. There are going to be false negatives (just like there will be people who acquire guns despite strict laws). I am not certain that a really rigorous mental health screen is even the only possible answer ... Maybe just more education in school around mental health issues would increase people's awareness to the point where some prevention could happen. I also wonder if anti-bullying programs might also prevent violence ... These programs do apparently improve kid's self-esteem (even in small ways) and they do decrease bullying incidents. Maybe a greater emphasis on these programs would ultimately translate into fewer bitter, angry school shooters?[/quote]
i have seen shows talking about anti bullying programs. this particular one i saw teaches basic self defense in PE class in which the defense is just as violent or moreso than the bullying. i am not sure if this is the way to go or not. i would think maybe that with some sort of empathy training may work. kids are bullied for a number of reasons and maybe if the bullies were able to relate to their victims in some emotional way then maybe they would mature and out grow the bully behavior? i dunno i am just thinking out loud i guess..."You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
I agree....but what is so bad about the Ten Commandments?....is it a bad?....there is a survey done saying people that have religion or pray (not sure of the right wording) are more healthy are happierhaffajappa wrote:The prayer in schools is just ridiculous. Religious people commit just as many crimes than non-religious people.
My boyfriend was raised in a catholic school, what I hear from him and a lot of people is the kids are actually worse in there for drugs and sex. Not a generalization for all catholic schools but an interesting observation I think.
You don't need to be religious to have morals... that kind of thinking just inspires more hate.
and live longer...Just what I heard......
How many kids go into private schools and shoot up people?.....maybe they have religion maybe they have more attention given ?“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln0 -
Parents need to teach there children respect for others....and bulling others is wrong....why does the school need to teach this?....this is basic parentinggimmesometruth27 wrote:
?rebornFixer wrote:
now we are getting somewhere. my only problem with that is how are you going to pick up on the mental issues without screening everybody from kindergarden on? i would not be opposed to it, but logistically and costwise it could be considered prohibitive, but if we could do it and prevent these kinds of shootings i would be all for it. but what about the people that make it all the way through school and go shoot up their place of employment just the same?gimmesometruth27 wrote:Bingo. So, we 1) try to keep guns out of kids' hands and 2) improve outreach services and mental health awareness and boom ... We've got ourselves a prevention program. I have no qualms about keeping guns away from kids. I just feel that the mental health issues need to be addressed as well.
No screening program is perfect and none is ever going to be perfect. There are going to be false negatives (just like there will be people who acquire guns despite strict laws). I am not certain that a really rigorous mental health screen is even the only possible answer ... Maybe just more education in school around mental health issues would increase people's awareness to the point where some prevention could happen. I also wonder if anti-bullying programs might also prevent violence ... These programs do apparently improve kid's self-esteem (even in small ways) and they do decrease bullying incidents. Maybe a greater emphasis on these programs would ultimately translate into fewer bitter, angry school shooters?i have seen shows talking about anti bullying programs. this particular one i saw teaches basic self defense in PE class in which the defense is just as violent or moreso than the bullying. i am not sure if this is the way to go or not. i would think maybe that with some sort of empathy training may work. kids are bullied for a number of reasons and maybe if the bullies were able to relate to their victims in some emotional way then maybe they would mature and out grow the bully behavior? i dunno i am just thinking out loud i guess...Post edited by aerial on“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln0 -
They live longer? Really?aerial wrote:
I agree....but what is so bad about the Ten Commandments?....is it a bad?....there is a survey done saying people that have religion or pray (not sure of the right wording) are more healthy are happierhaffajappa wrote:The prayer in schools is just ridiculous. Religious people commit just as many crimes than non-religious people.
My boyfriend was raised in a catholic school, what I hear from him and a lot of people is the kids are actually worse in there for drugs and sex. Not a generalization for all catholic schools but an interesting observation I think.
You don't need to be religious to have morals... that kind of thinking just inspires more hate.
and live longer...Just what I heard......
How many kids go into private schools and shoot up people?.....maybe they have religion maybe they have more attention given ?
I'd love to see those facts.
How many priests touch little boys? Certainly they have had religion, but were they not taught it is wrong to molest children?
I think its a sign of the times. Its not 1960 anymore, women can't afford to be stay at home moms all the time. Children have more independence, and are in a swirl of media and entertainment that glorify the use of weapons, and in a country which glorifies war some of the time. I'd say prayer in school is far down the list on why these kids do what they do.live pearl jam is best pearl jam0 -
There are crazy bastards in every walk of life.....They live longer? Really?
I'd love to see those facts.
How many priests touch little boys? Certainly they have had religion, but were they not taught it is wrong to molest children?
I think its a sign of the times. Its not 1960 anymore, women can't afford to be stay at home moms all the time. Children have more independence, and are in a swirl of media and entertainment that glorify the use of weapons, and in a country which glorifies war some of the time. I'd say prayer in school is far down the list on why these kids do what they do.
haffajappa
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But there are plenty of Moms that can stay home or dads....but then they would not be able to afford the material things that bring them so much happiness.“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln0 -
and all kids have two parents these days to teach them that right?? not in this day in age when the divorce rate is >50% and the average school teacher spends more time with the kid than the single parent working 2 or 3 jobs trying tp make ends meet.. like the poster above said, this is NOT 1960 anymore...aerial wrote:parents need to teach there children respect for others....and bulling others is wrong....why does the school need to teach this?....this is basic parenting"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
and thats the problem....maybegimmesometruth27 wrote:
and all kids have two parents these days to teach them that right?? not in this day in age when the divorce rate is >50% and the average school teacher spends more time with the kid than the single parent working 2 or 3 jobs trying tp make ends meet.. like the poster above said, this is NOT 1960 anymore...aerial wrote:parents need to teach there children respect for others....and bulling others is wrong....why does the school need to teach this?....this is basic parenting
are you saying it's the schools job to raise kids?
Do you have any? I would guess not.“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln0
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