So by implying that the world isnt perfect, bad things happen and there must not be a good and perfect God that created it you are claiming that you know how the world should be designed correctly. Suboptimal design doesnt mean there is no designer. You dont know the objective of the designer. See Stephen Jay Gould's example of the pandas thumb. He claims it was imperfectly designed but matter of fact science has found that it was perfectly designed to do what it was made to do. If we dont know what the designer intended then we cant say that the design fell short of those intentions.
Throw creationisim and Christianity out the window and build a foundation on this theory.
you're kidding right? ID is considered junk science or pseudoscience by all academia but a few fringe wackos
So you discount the brilliant PhD's that agree with this theory. An existance of God? Of course this would discount the scientist who disagree that their thoughts are the governing authorities and man is the highest account. Where would the finacial security and that PBS special be if it disagrees with darwinian world view.
So easily discounting variables is very unscientific. Its based on moral preferances and not scientific evidence. If you'd just take a sec to look into you'd see the evidence. Your moral disposition will not allow it.
So by implying that the world isnt perfect, bad things happen and there must not be a good and perfect God that created it you are claiming that you know how the world should be designed correctly. Suboptimal design doesnt mean there is no designer. You dont know the objective of the designer. See Stephen Jay Gould's example of the pandas thumb. He claims it was imperfectly designed but matter of fact science has found that it was perfectly designed to do what it was made to do. If we dont know what the designer intended then we cant say that the design fell short of those intentions.
Throw creationisim and Christianity out the window and build a foundation on this theory.
you're kidding right? ID is considered junk science or pseudoscience by all academia but a few fringe wackos
So you discount the brilliant PhD's that agree with this theory. An existance of God? Of course this would discount the scientist who disagree that their thoughts are the governing authorities and man is the highest account. Where would the finacial security and that PBS special be if it disagrees with darwinian world view.
So easily discounting variables is very unscientific. Its based on moral preferances and not scientific evidence. If you'd just take a sec to look into you'd see the evidence. Your moral disposition will not allow it.
so you believe that more brilliant PhD's ( ) believe in ID than brilliant PhD's that consider it pseudoscience?
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
wow, what happened around here? things seemed a little - calmer - the last time i checked in.
and, as a reminder of the diversity inside of christian thought, i refer you all to please read my initial post in this thread. i have addressed the 10 Qs in a manner that is somewhat different than EL's.
the single main point i see recurring here is whether god answers prayers or not, which is more broadly the question of why would a good god allow suffering. and i repeat, that is a very hard question for everyone to answer, god-believers and non-god-believers. (i'm sorry but 'god has a plan so your suffering is actually good for you' doesn't do it for me - and i am a christian.)
on the one hand, god-believers must wonder whether god is not completely good as they think god is, if suffering happens. that, or, god is not as powerful as they thought god is. or, that god does not exist. each of these are disturbing to god-believers. i find them disturbing, and i believe in god.
on the other hand, non-believers in god have a similarly difficult position. if one believes there is no god, then one believes suffering happens as a matter of random chance. in fact, i suppose non-god-believers hold that pretty much everything is random chance, the existence of the universe, the earth, life and us humans. in that case, humans are just complicted arangements of certain atoms which came to be through a long process of chance. but the question of human suffering implies that human suffering is actually real, that humans can suffer, that human existence does have some meaning beyond the random amalgamation of atoms that we are. the question then becomes, what is the source of this meaning?
(and please PLEASE do not misread me here - i AM NOT implying that someone who does not believe in god cannot believe in the meaning of human life. in fact, i believe the contrary - most people i know who do not believe in god do believe humans matter and seek, and find, meaning in life. i AM NOT saying life is empty without belief in god.)
The number of opposition doesnt matter. I'm saying that a lot of scientist wont consider it because of the world view thats pushed upon people. FINANCIALY. "Darwinism is so archaic its amazing that people still buy into it." <--I replaced someones comment on Christianity. Darwin couldnt see inside the cell. The complexity that exists debunks everything macro evolution has ever taught. Any scientist with integrity that can look past his own moral standpoint agrees that its all junk.
So by implying that the world isnt perfect, bad things happen and there must not be a good and perfect God that created it you are claiming that you know how the world should be designed correctly. Suboptimal design doesnt mean there is no designer. You dont know the objective of the designer. See Stephen Jay Gould's example of the pandas thumb. He claims it was imperfectly designed but matter of fact science has found that it was perfectly designed to do what it was made to do. If we dont know what the designer intended then we cant say that the design fell short of those intentions.
Throw creationisim and Christianity out the window and build a foundation on this theory.
so if god created the marijuana plant, then surely he intends for us to enjoy it? if that's the case, when i get home I'm going to clean out my krusty the clown bong and hit it big time, cause the big man wants me to.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
so if god created the marijuana plant, then surely he intends for us to enjoy it? if that's the case, when i get home I'm going to clean out my krusty the clown bong and hit it big time, cause the big man wants me to.
would you mail me some scrapings?
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
wow, what happened around here? things seemed a little - calmer - the last time i checked in.
and, as a reminder of the diversity inside of christian thought, i refer you all to please read my initial post in this thread. i have addressed the 10 Qs in a manner that is somewhat different than EL's.
the single main point i see recurring here is whether god answers prayers or not, which is more broadly the question of why would a good god allow suffering. and i repeat, that is a very hard question for everyone to answer, god-believers and non-god-believers. (i'm sorry but 'god has a plan so your suffering is actually good for you' doesn't do it for me - and i am a christian.)
on the one hand, god-believers must wonder whether god is not completely good as they think god is, if suffering happens. that, or, god is not as powerful as they thought god is. or, that god does not exist. each of these are disturbing to god-believers. i find them disturbing, and i believe in god.
on the other hand, non-believers in god have a similarly difficult position. if one believes there is no god, then one believes suffering happens as a matter of random chance. in fact, i suppose non-god-believers hold that pretty much everything is random chance, the existence of the universe, the earth, life and us humans. in that case, humans are just complicted arangements of certain atoms which came to be through a long process of chance. but the question of human suffering implies that human suffering is actually real, that humans can suffer, that human existence does have some meaning beyond the random amalgamation of atoms that we are. the question then becomes, what is the source of this meaning?
(and please PLEASE do not misread me here - i AM NOT implying that someone who does not believe in god cannot believe in the meaning of human life. in fact, i believe the contrary - most people i know who do not believe in god do believe humans matter and seek, and find, meaning in life. i AM NOT saying life is empty without belief in god.)
Would you mind telling me your view on God and or what religion, if any, you follow?
The number of opposition doesnt matter. I'm saying that a lot of scientist wont consider it because of the world view thats pushed upon people. FINANCIALY. "Darwinism is so archaic its amazing that people still buy into it." <--I replaced someones comment on Christianity. Darwin couldnt see inside the cell. The complexity that exists debunks everything macro evolution has ever taught. Any scientist with integrity that can look past his own moral standpoint agrees that its all junk.
no man....they don't accept it because it is garbage
it's like those stupid ghost TV shows that pop up....they're all crap but people believe that shit....ID is religious trickery in an attempt to get christianity taught in schools
or do you support ID being taught and supported by Allah as the designer? Zeus?
Post edited by Gern Blansten on
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
So by implying that the world isnt perfect, bad things happen and there must not be a good and perfect God that created it you are claiming that you know how the world should be designed correctly. Suboptimal design doesnt mean there is no designer. You dont know the objective of the designer. See Stephen Jay Gould's example of the pandas thumb. He claims it was imperfectly designed but matter of fact science has found that it was perfectly designed to do what it was made to do. If we dont know what the designer intended then we cant say that the design fell short of those intentions.
Throw creationisim and Christianity out the window and build a foundation on this theory.
The number of opposition doesnt matter. I'm saying that a lot of scientist wont consider it because of the world view thats pushed upon people. FINANCIALY. "Darwinism is so archaic its amazing that people still buy into it." <--I replaced someones comment on Christianity. Darwin couldnt see inside the cell. The complexity that exists debunks everything macro evolution has ever taught. Any scientist with integrity that can look past his own moral standpoint agrees that its all junk.
no man....they don't accept it because it is garbage
it's like those stupid ghost TV shows that pop up....their all crap but people believe that shit....ID is religious trickery in an attempt to get christianity taught in schools
or do you support ID being taught and supported by Allah as the designer? Zeus?
Why is it garbage? For you to say it is you would have to know what is and isnt garbage and I can bet you dont know everything. I believe in ID but I also look into evolution and other theories before I base my final judgement on what I believe. Do you not?
So ID is backed by religious men with a religious agenda. Then I can safely say that darwinism is backed by a secular agenda.
I believe once you really look at the evidence for all theories on the orgin of life ID is the only logical explaination for my CREATIVE mind. Having that base its your own choice on which religion to put your faith in. I personally find the most evidence in Christ.
and having been myself disabled this year yes, I've seen the kindness and good that comes from pain and sorrow.
Good for you. My husband sees the same kindess and good as before. He sees a LOT more pain and sorrow than he did before. He is not the man he used to be and cannot pretend he will ever be, not because he is bitter or 'can't get over it' or whatever, but because physically it will never happen. It's sort of sad that you had to see 'kindness and good that comes from pain and sorrow' as opposed to having the kindess and the good before the sorrow.
blaming god just seem to cause a very bitter person who chooses not to see the good.
If this is addressed to me, I never blamed god. I don't believe in god. That is the point. God inflicting 'pain' (broad term) for our ultimate betterment is just full of shit. Maybe someone will say 'he beat the shit out of me, paralysing me in the process but hey... sitting in my wheelchair, I saw kindness and goodness from the people that helped me have a shit, get dressed, feed me because I can't do it myself. Ultimate betterment?
What about these two young boys that tortured another pair of young boys, completely traumatizing them (amongst other things). What is the ultimate betterment for these poor little boys who have suffered and are scared to go out, etc.?
The thing is, if one feels they need to justify that their almighty, loving, good god is capable of inflicting such pain and suffering on 'his flock' (ie wars, destruction, etc., all mentioned in this thread already) by sayig 'it's for your own good/betterment' or it's because the world is 'cursed', to me, they have run out of steam. A bit like answering a kid with 'because' when you don't know the answer.
Your original post sounded bitter to me. I apologize if I misunderstood. Yes of course I have been surrounded by good in my life it did not take being injured to see the good. I am very blessed.
What I meant was I took good from my challenges of the past year. Thats all we can do. I will never be the same either but that is life.We change hopefully grow and are better with life's experiences.
I have always thought people believe in God because they have the need. The faith is strong because it answers a need. It seems to me non believers just are not happy to leave those of faith alone most especially here on this website. They don't feel the need to believe but seem to feel the need to discredit what others believe. And yes often they seem a bit bitter and unhappy. Sometimes I think people are not feeling enough and just trying to over think everything.
Would you mind telling me your view on God and or what religion, if any, you follow?
sure. i believe in god. i am a christian. and i mean those things in a pretty traditional way: a god that created the universe and humans, and a jesus who was the personification of god on earth to serve as redemption for humans. pretty straightforward christianity, right?
as for my other thoughts - well,maybe you might read the rest of my posts in this thread - i put pretty much thought into them and i don't want to go over it all again.
i have faith, but sometimes it's stronger than at other times. i also have some problems with some of what has become modern american christianity.
So by implying that the world isnt perfect, bad things happen and there must not be a good and perfect God that created it you are claiming that you know how the world should be designed correctly. Suboptimal design doesnt mean there is no designer. You dont know the objective of the designer. See Stephen Jay Gould's example of the pandas thumb. He claims it was imperfectly designed but matter of fact science has found that it was perfectly designed to do what it was made to do. If we dont know what the designer intended then we cant say that the design fell short of those intentions.
Throw creationisim and Christianity out the window and build a foundation on this theory.
Who created the stuff before the big bang or the first single celled life form?
"It's turtles all the way down."
We're talking about ID and I'm not arguing on the side of the big bang or evolution here. ID says it all just can't come from nothing by accident, right? So how could the intelligent designer not have been designed?
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
We're talking about ID and I'm not arguing on the side of the big bang or evolution here. ID says it all just can't come from nothing by accident, right? So how could the intelligent designer not have been designed?
Maybe there is a creator of God, maybe there isnt. Thats outside of our puzzle box and certainly outside of His if true. We are under the cosomic microscope like our cells are under our microscope. Whats in the cell's microscope?
We're talking about ID and I'm not arguing on the side of the big bang or evolution here. ID says it all just can't come from nothing by accident, right? So how could the intelligent designer not have been designed?
regarding the origin of god (if one exists) and the universe, we have two choices, right?
event 1 was caused by event 2 which was caused by event 3 which was caused by event 4 which was caused by...extending infinitely into the "past."
OR:
event 1 was caused by event 2 which was casued by event 3 which was caused by...which was caused by event 234,454,452,353,343 - or whatever - the sequence has a beginning.
neither of these precludes the possible existence of god.
in the first case, we could have an infinitely existing god, which is what a lot of god-believers think is the nature of god.
in the second case, we have a first cause (here, it's event 234,454,452,353,343 - haha). it would be within the realm of possibility to call that first cause 'god'.
It seems these arguments always lead to us pushing the proof of god argument back to the origin of the universe.
This is one reason why I do not believe in god although I leave the possibility open if the evidence presents itself. If we can dismiss all the other "evidence" except for the origin of the universe don't we agree on more than we disagree as to the existence of a god?
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
It seems these arguments always lead to us pushing the proof of god argument back to the origin of the universe.
This is one reason why I do not believe in god although I leave the possibility open if the evidence presents itself. If we can dismiss all the other "evidence" except for the origin of the universe don't we agree on more than we disagree as to the existence of a god?
hmmmm, what do you mean exactly? do you mean that neither of us can prove our position or disprove the other's, and that neither of us can be sure how the universe started? if that's what you mean, then yeah, we agree on a lot.
and as for dismissing all other "evidence" - and the use of quotes is fine by me - well, this "evidence" is available to both of us, it's just a matter of how we each interpret it. i tend to think this "evidence" - a bunch of little things all taken in concert with each other - implies a god probably exists. you, i believe, see each piece of what i call 'evidence' as unrelated matters of chance - yeah?
It seems these arguments always lead to us pushing the proof of god argument back to the origin of the universe.
This is one reason why I do not believe in god although I leave the possibility open if the evidence presents itself. If we can dismiss all the other "evidence" except for the origin of the universe don't we agree on more than we disagree as to the existence of a god?
hmmmm, what do you mean exactly? do you mean that neither of us can prove our position or disprove the other's, and that neither of us can be sure how the universe started? if that's what you mean, then yeah, we agree on a lot.
and as for dismissing all other "evidence" - and the use of quotes is fine by me - well, this "evidence" is available to both of us, it's just a matter of how we each interpret it. i tend to think this "evidence" - a bunch of little things all taken in concert with each other - implies a god probably exists. you, i believe, see each piece of what i call 'evidence' as unrelated matters of chance - yeah?
I guess I believe that everything else that could be termed "evidence" for the existence of a god can be logically dismissed by various arguments or rational thought.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
I guess I believe that everything else that could be termed "evidence" for the existence of a god can be logically dismissed by various arguments or rational thought.
huh, now that is interesting to me. that is pretty much exactly my own methodology - examining each piece of "evidence" through various arguments and rational thought. i just generally come out believing that my use of reason has strenghtened my faith in god.
of course this makes me wonder how much each of us is seeing what we want to see, that reaffirms what we already believe. you have admitted you would be willing to concede belief in god if evidence presented itself. i wonder if i would be willing to eschew my faith in god if evidence of god's non-existence presented itself...
(ultimately, though, i think it's a moot point for each of us - i don't see indesputable, incontrovertable evidence coming from either side any time soon.)
I guess I believe that everything else that could be termed "evidence" for the existence of a god can be logically dismissed by various arguments or rational thought.
huh, now that is interesting to me. that is pretty much exactly my own methodology - examining each piece of "evidence" through various arguments and rational thought. i just generally come out believing that my use of reason has strenghtened my faith in god.
of course this makes me wonder how much each of us is seeing what we want to see, that reaffirms what we already believe. you have admitted you would be willing to concede belief in god if evidence presented itself. i wonder if i would be willing to eschew my faith in god if evidence of god's non-existence presented itself...
(ultimately, though, i think it's a moot point for each of us - i don't see indesputable, incontrovertable evidence coming from either side any time soon.)
I would disagree....kind of what was presented in the video...in order to believe in god you would have to make up some uncomfortable excuses or rationalizations....to me that is evidence of no god because it just logically doesn't make sense
I'm not sure if you want to present something as an example because I think we'll end up back at the beginning of the universe again.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
1)I have always thought people believe in God because they have the need. The faith is strong because it answers a need. 2)It seems to me non believers just are not happy to leave those of faith alone most especially here on this website. They don't feel the need to believe but seem to feel the need to discredit what others believe. And yes often they seem a bit bitter and unhappy. Sometimes I think people are not feeling enough and just trying to over think everything.
I couldn't agree more with #1 in blue.
I couldn't disagree more with #2 in red, as I have never had an interest in debunking anyone's anything. I find more theists try to convert more atheists/agnostics than the other way around. What possible motivation do I have for convincing others there is no god except to defend my belief against a theist that is for some reason trying to make me a believer?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I would disagree....kind of what was presented in the video...in order to believe in god you would have to make up some uncomfortable excuses or rationalizations....to me that is evidence of no god because it just logically doesn't make sense
I'm not sure if you want to present something as an example because I think we'll end up back at the beginning of the universe again.
OK, i will give it a try. and this is something i mentioned above in a previous post. in the context of the video, the guy asks a lot of questions (why won't god heal amputees, why are so many people starving, why do bad things happen to good people) that seems to wonder why god allows suffering. this question implies that human suffering is real, not imagined, and that it is bad. this point of view implies that humans do in fact have some kind of inherent value.
now, i ask, as i did above, where does this value come from? i do not imply that in the absence of god, human life can have no value. i just mention this: the god-believer believes that human life has value because there was some kind of purpose behind it's existence. the non-god-believer, as far as i can tell, must accept that human life has intrinsic value in and of itself, for no reason beyond the fact itself. while this is cetainly a defensable position, and one i certainly respect, i think it actually requires a leap of faith that is somewhat greater than believing humans have value for the reason of being god-created.
but i dunno, like i said, i want to learn about other's point of view...
1)I have always thought people believe in God because they have the need. The faith is strong because it answers a need. 2)It seems to me non believers just are not happy to leave those of faith alone most especially here on this website. They don't feel the need to believe but seem to feel the need to discredit what others believe. And yes often they seem a bit bitter and unhappy. Sometimes I think people are not feeling enough and just trying to over think everything.
I couldn't agree more with #1 in blue.
I couldn't disagree more with #2 in red, as I have never had an interest in debunking anyone's anything. I find more theists try to convert more atheists/agnostics than the other way around. What possible motivation do I have for convincing others there is no god except to defend my belief against a theist that is for some reason trying to make me a believer?
just to be clear, i personally am not trying to convince anyone. i am interested in an honest exchange of ideas.
that said, on point 1 here, like i said above, just because someone wants something to be true does not mean it is false.
I would disagree....kind of what was presented in the video...in order to believe in god you would have to make up some uncomfortable excuses or rationalizations....to me that is evidence of no god because it just logically doesn't make sense
I'm not sure if you want to present something as an example because I think we'll end up back at the beginning of the universe again.
OK, i will give it a try. and this is something i mentioned above in a previous post. in the context of the video, the guy asks a lot of questions (why won't god heal amputees, why are so many people starving, why do bad things happen to good people) that seems to wonder why god allows suffering. this question implies that human suffering is real, not imagined, and that it is bad. this point of view implies that humans do in fact have some kind of inherent value.
now, i ask, as i did above, where does this value come from? i do not imply that in the absence of god, human life can have no value. i just mention this: the god-believer believes that human life has value because there was some kind of purpose behind it's existence. the non-god-believer, as far as i can tell, must accept that human life has intrinsic value in and of itself, for no reason beyond the fact itself. while this is cetainly a defensable position, and one i certainly respect, i think it actually requires a leap of faith that is somewhat greater than believing humans have value for the reason of being god-created.
but i dunno, like i said, i want to learn about other's point of view...
of course it is real....we are animals....animals suffer
If I beat the neighbor's dog with a bat he will suffer....why does he have to have value to suffer?
Post edited by Gern Blansten on
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
I would disagree....kind of what was presented in the video...in order to believe in god you would have to make up some uncomfortable excuses or rationalizations....to me that is evidence of no god because it just logically doesn't make sense
I'm not sure if you want to present something as an example because I think we'll end up back at the beginning of the universe again.
OK, i will give it a try. and this is something i mentioned above in a previous post. in the context of the video, the guy asks a lot of questions (why won't god heal amputees, why are so many people starving, why do bad things happen to good people) that seems to wonder why god allows suffering. this question implies that human suffering is real, not imagined, and that it is bad. this point of view implies that humans do in fact have some kind of inherent value.
now, i ask, as i did above, where does this value come from? i do not imply that in the absence of god, human life can have no value. i just mention this: the god-believer believes that human life has value because there was some kind of purpose behind it's existence. the non-god-believer, as far as i can tell, must accept that human life has intrinsic value in and of itself, for no reason beyond the fact itself. while this is cetainly a defensable position, and one i certainly respect, i think it actually requires a leap of faith that is somewhat greater than believing humans have value for the reason of being god-created.
but i dunno, like i said, i want to learn about other's point of view...
I don't believe that I was created for a purpose; I believe my life has purpose because I was created.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I am probably going to get destroyed for making this comparison, but this, Simpson's episode, called The Genesis Tub, believe it or not, actually made me think about this subject and gave me a new perspective on what god is/could be. Humour me, and just read on:
"Lisa performs a science experiment to see if cola will dissolve a tooth and Bart shocks Lisa as part of his project to prove that nerds conduct electricity. The tooth was also shocked and it undergoes an unusual reaction and creates a race of miniature beings. Lisa discovers this the next day and marvels at how the people in her universe evolve at a rapid rate, going through the various ages humans have gone through into modern times and eventually, a society more advanced than current humanity. Bart destroys some of the ecosystem in Lisa's tub universe and the people respond, sending a squadron of space ships to attack Bart. Bart vows revenge on the small universe and Lisa wonders what to do. Suddenly, she is beamed down into the tub where the citizens explain that they regard her as God and they want her to do something about Bart. However, Bart grabs the tub and submits it in the science fair and Lisa is forced to watch from within as Bart wins first prize. She asks to be returned to her normal size, which the citizens explain is impossible, and she realizes that she is stuck in the tub for the rest of her life."
Now, I understand the irony, if not outright ridiculousness, of a cartoon giving me insight into religion, but it seriously made me think; what if there is a god, but he's not the god we think he is. Maybe he accidentally created life, but has no real power beyond that.
Is it possible there is a "god" that is powerless with no real heaven as we've come to imagine, and also that evolution is real?
Back to the bong we go.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
... the god-believer believes that human life has value because there was some kind of purpose behind it's existence. .
And what is this purpose?
I'm pretty sure even the righteous will admit they don't know this one. I think you are supposed to find out when you sit down with the big man for your eternal happy hour.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Gee and my most important point was that people are not feeling enough and over thinking everything
"I don't want to think I want to feel" a great man said that once
Comments
So you discount the brilliant PhD's that agree with this theory. An existance of God? Of course this would discount the scientist who disagree that their thoughts are the governing authorities and man is the highest account. Where would the finacial security and that PBS special be if it disagrees with darwinian world view.
So easily discounting variables is very unscientific. Its based on moral preferances and not scientific evidence. If you'd just take a sec to look into you'd see the evidence. Your moral disposition will not allow it.
so you believe that more brilliant PhD's (
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
and, as a reminder of the diversity inside of christian thought, i refer you all to please read my initial post in this thread. i have addressed the 10 Qs in a manner that is somewhat different than EL's.
the single main point i see recurring here is whether god answers prayers or not, which is more broadly the question of why would a good god allow suffering. and i repeat, that is a very hard question for everyone to answer, god-believers and non-god-believers. (i'm sorry but 'god has a plan so your suffering is actually good for you' doesn't do it for me - and i am a christian.)
on the one hand, god-believers must wonder whether god is not completely good as they think god is, if suffering happens. that, or, god is not as powerful as they thought god is. or, that god does not exist. each of these are disturbing to god-believers. i find them disturbing, and i believe in god.
on the other hand, non-believers in god have a similarly difficult position. if one believes there is no god, then one believes suffering happens as a matter of random chance. in fact, i suppose non-god-believers hold that pretty much everything is random chance, the existence of the universe, the earth, life and us humans. in that case, humans are just complicted arangements of certain atoms which came to be through a long process of chance. but the question of human suffering implies that human suffering is actually real, that humans can suffer, that human existence does have some meaning beyond the random amalgamation of atoms that we are. the question then becomes, what is the source of this meaning?
(and please PLEASE do not misread me here - i AM NOT implying that someone who does not believe in god cannot believe in the meaning of human life. in fact, i believe the contrary - most people i know who do not believe in god do believe humans matter and seek, and find, meaning in life. i AM NOT saying life is empty without belief in god.)
Knock knock...... whos there?.......macroevolution.....macroevolution who?.....................
Who intelligently designed God?
"With our thoughts we make the world"
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
would you mail me some scrapings?
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
Would you mind telling me your view on God and or what religion, if any, you follow?
no man....they don't accept it because it is garbage
it's like those stupid ghost TV shows that pop up....they're all crap but people believe that shit....ID is religious trickery in an attempt to get christianity taught in schools
or do you support ID being taught and supported by Allah as the designer? Zeus?
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
Who created the stuff before the big bang or the first single celled life form?
Why is it garbage? For you to say it is you would have to know what is and isnt garbage and I can bet you dont know everything. I believe in ID but I also look into evolution and other theories before I base my final judgement on what I believe. Do you not?
So ID is backed by religious men with a religious agenda. Then I can safely say that darwinism is backed by a secular agenda.
I believe once you really look at the evidence for all theories on the orgin of life ID is the only logical explaination for my CREATIVE mind. Having that base its your own choice on which religion to put your faith in. I personally find the most evidence in Christ.
What I meant was I took good from my challenges of the past year. Thats all we can do. I will never be the same either but that is life.We change hopefully grow and are better with life's experiences.
I have always thought people believe in God because they have the need. The faith is strong because it answers a need. It seems to me non believers just are not happy to leave those of faith alone most especially here on this website. They don't feel the need to believe but seem to feel the need to discredit what others believe. And yes often they seem a bit bitter and unhappy. Sometimes I think people are not feeling enough and just trying to over think everything.
sure. i believe in god. i am a christian. and i mean those things in a pretty traditional way: a god that created the universe and humans, and a jesus who was the personification of god on earth to serve as redemption for humans. pretty straightforward christianity, right?
as for my other thoughts - well,maybe you might read the rest of my posts in this thread - i put pretty much thought into them and i don't want to go over it all again.
i have faith, but sometimes it's stronger than at other times. i also have some problems with some of what has become modern american christianity.
"It's turtles all the way down."
We're talking about ID and I'm not arguing on the side of the big bang or evolution here. ID says it all just can't come from nothing by accident, right? So how could the intelligent designer not have been designed?
"With our thoughts we make the world"
Maybe there is a creator of God, maybe there isnt. Thats outside of our puzzle box and certainly outside of His if true. We are under the cosomic microscope like our cells are under our microscope. Whats in the cell's microscope?
regarding the origin of god (if one exists) and the universe, we have two choices, right?
event 1 was caused by event 2 which was caused by event 3 which was caused by event 4 which was caused by...extending infinitely into the "past."
OR:
event 1 was caused by event 2 which was casued by event 3 which was caused by...which was caused by event 234,454,452,353,343 - or whatever - the sequence has a beginning.
neither of these precludes the possible existence of god.
in the first case, we could have an infinitely existing god, which is what a lot of god-believers think is the nature of god.
in the second case, we have a first cause (here, it's event 234,454,452,353,343 - haha). it would be within the realm of possibility to call that first cause 'god'.
This is one reason why I do not believe in god although I leave the possibility open if the evidence presents itself. If we can dismiss all the other "evidence" except for the origin of the universe don't we agree on more than we disagree as to the existence of a god?
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
hmmmm, what do you mean exactly? do you mean that neither of us can prove our position or disprove the other's, and that neither of us can be sure how the universe started? if that's what you mean, then yeah, we agree on a lot.
and as for dismissing all other "evidence" - and the use of quotes is fine by me - well, this "evidence" is available to both of us, it's just a matter of how we each interpret it. i tend to think this "evidence" - a bunch of little things all taken in concert with each other - implies a god probably exists. you, i believe, see each piece of what i call 'evidence' as unrelated matters of chance - yeah?
I guess I believe that everything else that could be termed "evidence" for the existence of a god can be logically dismissed by various arguments or rational thought.
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
huh, now that is interesting to me. that is pretty much exactly my own methodology - examining each piece of "evidence" through various arguments and rational thought. i just generally come out believing that my use of reason has strenghtened my faith in god.
of course this makes me wonder how much each of us is seeing what we want to see, that reaffirms what we already believe. you have admitted you would be willing to concede belief in god if evidence presented itself. i wonder if i would be willing to eschew my faith in god if evidence of god's non-existence presented itself...
(ultimately, though, i think it's a moot point for each of us - i don't see indesputable, incontrovertable evidence coming from either side any time soon.)
I would disagree....kind of what was presented in the video...in order to believe in god you would have to make up some uncomfortable excuses or rationalizations....to me that is evidence of no god because it just logically doesn't make sense
I'm not sure if you want to present something as an example because I think we'll end up back at the beginning of the universe again.
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
I couldn't agree more with #1 in blue.
I couldn't disagree more with #2 in red, as I have never had an interest in debunking anyone's anything. I find more theists try to convert more atheists/agnostics than the other way around. What possible motivation do I have for convincing others there is no god except to defend my belief against a theist that is for some reason trying to make me a believer?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
OK, i will give it a try. and this is something i mentioned above in a previous post. in the context of the video, the guy asks a lot of questions (why won't god heal amputees, why are so many people starving, why do bad things happen to good people) that seems to wonder why god allows suffering. this question implies that human suffering is real, not imagined, and that it is bad. this point of view implies that humans do in fact have some kind of inherent value.
now, i ask, as i did above, where does this value come from? i do not imply that in the absence of god, human life can have no value. i just mention this: the god-believer believes that human life has value because there was some kind of purpose behind it's existence. the non-god-believer, as far as i can tell, must accept that human life has intrinsic value in and of itself, for no reason beyond the fact itself. while this is cetainly a defensable position, and one i certainly respect, i think it actually requires a leap of faith that is somewhat greater than believing humans have value for the reason of being god-created.
but i dunno, like i said, i want to learn about other's point of view...
just to be clear, i personally am not trying to convince anyone. i am interested in an honest exchange of ideas.
that said, on point 1 here, like i said above, just because someone wants something to be true does not mean it is false.
of course it is real....we are animals....animals suffer
If I beat the neighbor's dog with a bat he will suffer....why does he have to have value to suffer?
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
I don't believe that I was created for a purpose; I believe my life has purpose because I was created.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
"Lisa performs a science experiment to see if cola will dissolve a tooth and Bart shocks Lisa as part of his project to prove that nerds conduct electricity. The tooth was also shocked and it undergoes an unusual reaction and creates a race of miniature beings. Lisa discovers this the next day and marvels at how the people in her universe evolve at a rapid rate, going through the various ages humans have gone through into modern times and eventually, a society more advanced than current humanity. Bart destroys some of the ecosystem in Lisa's tub universe and the people respond, sending a squadron of space ships to attack Bart. Bart vows revenge on the small universe and Lisa wonders what to do. Suddenly, she is beamed down into the tub where the citizens explain that they regard her as God and they want her to do something about Bart. However, Bart grabs the tub and submits it in the science fair and Lisa is forced to watch from within as Bart wins first prize. She asks to be returned to her normal size, which the citizens explain is impossible, and she realizes that she is stuck in the tub for the rest of her life."
Now, I understand the irony, if not outright ridiculousness, of a cartoon giving me insight into religion, but it seriously made me think; what if there is a god, but he's not the god we think he is. Maybe he accidentally created life, but has no real power beyond that.
Is it possible there is a "god" that is powerless with no real heaven as we've come to imagine, and also that evolution is real?
Back to the bong we go.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
And what is this purpose?
I'm pretty sure even the righteous will admit they don't know this one. I think you are supposed to find out when you sit down with the big man for your eternal happy hour.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
"I don't want to think I want to feel" a great man said that once