essentially every culture that has ever existed believed in something. doesn't prove god's existence, of course not, but it is worth considering...
this is exactly the reason I believe man created god. man has a need for him. man feels despair and questions life's purpose, and creating a god that will save us in the afterlife and is all-knowing gives us peace of mind in this life. it's no coincidence that those who turn to god have some feeling of being lost or that they are missing something in life. the hunter then pounces on its prey.
someone said it best in the other thread: in ancient times, men of power telling his subjects that god speaks to him and he has the power of god was the perfect way of keeping everyone in line. man created god to instill fear in other men. the church, ancient and present, has been controlling humanity since the dawn of time.
and just to be clear: no, I'm not talking about the illuminati or other conspiracy theories.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
what is more arrogant - believing a god answers your prayers, or telling someone that they are hurting their species because of their religious beliefs? i think it's the second...
neither: religious folk that go around telling you they "know" that your life is not complete, and that they have all the answers you seek.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
i know there is a similar discussion going on in another thread, but i have not read all 30-some-odd pages, some i'm gonna keep posting here...
and besides, it was the video originally posted in this thread that got me interested in replying.
there seems to be sentiment in this thread (and the other one) that one of the things that bother some people about some christians is that they act very certain, sure of themselves, and act like the athiest or agnostic perspective is somehow immoral, and that it is their duty to convert non-believers.
i am here to point out that in fact some athiests do exactly the same thing - and it bothers me that their positions are considered rational, logical, reasonable, rather than just as judgemental as the christians they are attacking.
case in point: what if i believe the evidence for god's existense is completely overwhelming and say
"your non-religious beliefs hurt you personally and hurt us as a species becasue they are delusional. disbelief in any god is complete nonsense."
i think most nonbelievers would be either annoyed or offended. however, this is exactly what the guy in the original video said - just take out the "non-" and "dis". and no one has attacked his position as judgemental.
we have a lot of super-atheists like richard dawkins and christoher hitchens writing books, convincing intelligent people that belief in god in general and christianity in particular cannot be rational. but that is simply not so.
I prefer an agnostic point of view rather than "super-atheism" however I don't think belief in a god is rational. The existence of a god, or anything, is possible, but it is just one possibility, of which there is no detectable evidence for, among an infinite amount of possibilities, most of which humans may have not even thought of. There are many common arguments for the existence of a god, however are all undone by the same logic used to present them.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
essentially every culture that has ever existed believed in something. doesn't prove god's existence, of course not, but it is worth considering...
this is exactly the reason I believe man created god. man has a need for him. man feels despair and questions life's purpose, and creating a god that will save us in the afterlife and is all-knowing gives us peace of mind in this life. it's no coincidence that those who turn to god have some feeling of being lost or that they are missing something in life. the hunter then pounces on its prey.
someone said it best in the other thread: in ancient times, men of power telling his subjects that god speaks to him and he has the power of god was the perfect way of keeping everyone in line. man created god to instill fear in other men. the church, ancient and present, has been controlling humanity since the dawn of time.
and just to be clear: no, I'm not talking about the illuminati or other conspiracy theories.
these are both good points. it is certainly possible that man created god in his image - i cannot prove god exists and will never tell you i can. however i do have some thoughts about this first issue:
first, either god exists or god does not exist, right? i mean we can't really have much compromise on that particular issue; some kind of half-existent god i guess makes no sense. so if god exists, god exists. it doesn't matter whether or not people wish it to be so. and, frankly, there are people who want god not to exist. does this make it more likely god does not exist, because some people wish it?
as to the despair and questioning of life's purpose, well, everybody feels that, right? you, me, super-fundamentalist right wing christian whackos and vitriolic anti-god crusaders. in fact, i think the despair and questioning is one of the more universal things we humans share. i do not claim this proves the existence of god (clearly it doesn't) but it could be interpreted as indicating that we are meant to, well, seek, god. could be, right? that's my opinion.
the whole idea about religion being used as a tool to subert independent thought, you know, keep people in line, i agree wholeheartedly, this has happened. in fact (as you know) it still happens today. it pisses me off like nothing else to see people misinterpret what i view as a pretty simple message and use it to keep others down, in any way. but again, this does not mean the essential belief is either false or true. i mentioned those guys who falsified the climate change data (or whatever) above, and i think it might be a fair comparison - just becasue some scientists did unethical things to promote their agenda doesn't mean their underlying beliefs are false. (quite the contrary in this case i think...) and one last point on this topic: the actual message of jesus that the gospels contain is definitely not one of subservience to men of power or the church. quite the contrary, jesus kind of told people to upset the current social and religious order - and was killed for it. churches trying to wring subservience out of believers to follow a particular, rigid religious order is, i believe, a gross misinterpretation.
what is more arrogant - believing a god answers your prayers, or telling someone that they are hurting their species because of their religious beliefs? i think it's the second...
neither: religious folk that go around telling you they "know" that your life is not complete, and that they have all the answers you seek.
yes, that is extremely fucking arrogant. i do not know your life is incomplete. if i were to assume, i would guess parts of your life are very rewarding and parts are difficult, exactly like my own life. i believe in god, and i am a christian, but i definitely do not have all the answers you seek - hell, i don't have all the answers i seek (maybe i'm not doing it right, haha).
i am in this thread because i want to learn. i want to have intellectually honest conversations about faith and god - with both people who think like me, and people who think i am completely full of shit. that is sometimes a very hard thing to do - gets really emotional, or whatever. oh, and i also want to refute the initial claim, evident in the original video in this thread, that belief in god cannot be rational.
i know there is a similar discussion going on in another thread, but i have not read all 30-some-odd pages, some i'm gonna keep posting here...
and besides, it was the video originally posted in this thread that got me interested in replying.
there seems to be sentiment in this thread (and the other one) that one of the things that bother some people about some christians is that they act very certain, sure of themselves, and act like the athiest or agnostic perspective is somehow immoral, and that it is their duty to convert non-believers.
i am here to point out that in fact some athiests do exactly the same thing - and it bothers me that their positions are considered rational, logical, reasonable, rather than just as judgemental as the christians they are attacking.
case in point: what if i believe the evidence for god's existense is completely overwhelming and say
"your non-religious beliefs hurt you personally and hurt us as a species becasue they are delusional. disbelief in any god is complete nonsense."
i think most nonbelievers would be either annoyed or offended. however, this is exactly what the guy in the original video said - just take out the "non-" and "dis". and no one has attacked his position as judgemental.
we have a lot of super-atheists like richard dawkins and christoher hitchens writing books, convincing intelligent people that belief in god in general and christianity in particular cannot be rational. but that is simply not so.
I prefer an agnostic point of view rather than "super-atheism" however I don't think belief in a god is rational. The existence of a god, or anything, is possible, but it is just one possibility, of which there is no detectable evidence for, among an infinite amount of possibilities, most of which humans may have not even thought of. There are many common arguments for the existence of a god, however are all undone by the same logic used to present them.
good. i like to see an agnostic point of view because that means that you, like me, aren't completely sure about what's what. i think we can have much more intersting conversations in the grey area...
and when i said "suppose i believe the evidence for god's existense is completely overwhelming" i was just framing my point in the terms the guy with the video used. i in fact don't believe the evidence for god is "overwhelming." personally, i think there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that indicates god does exist. but my faith is (on my good-faith days) more than the sum of these indicators.
as such, i would never try to prove to you that god does exist using only logic. however, i believe i can use logic as one tool among many to lead me to the conclusion that god is real. and this isn't so off base, is it? i mean a lot of what we tiny humans hold most dear is a weird, sometimes screwed up jumble of logic, emotion, evidence, hope, empiricism and faith.
(and sorry for saying "super-atheist" - i guess that could come across as kind of offensive to some...)
Honestly the one thing that bothers me the most about christians is their arrogance
Not all christians certainly but I would say more than 50% have blinders on. Facebook is a good example....people constantly posting praises to god for their kids getting good grades, asking for prayers because they are sick, etc. (maybe they should have prayed to not get sick?)
It boils down to arrogance and ignorance and it's extremely annoying.
i agree - arrogance is annoying. but i would argue it is a generally human foible more than it is a specifically christian foible.
what is more arrogant - believing a god answers your prayers, or telling someone that they are hurting their species because of their religious beliefs? i think it's the second...
honestly I would say the former because we all can agree that god does not answer prayers
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer
Evolution happens on a long term scale, either adapting to large-scale change, or as a mutation that coincidentally helps that one creature survive, and it's spawn keep the mutation, and continue on with the mutation/evolution. Evolution does not solve an individual creature losing an arm, leg, eyeball, etc - unless it's a problem that is so common with that species, that the creature evolves it's own defense, such as a lizard's tail which regenerates.
Ok... I answered your direct question. Will you answer maybe a few of the 10 questions?
(GB - would you please transcribe the 10 questions from the video to make it easier for someone who is actually willing to answer to do so?)
So if men are capable of evil and evolution changes things to fix problems common with species why havent we seen this take place? Men have gotten progressively worse.
No one has ever actually witnessed evolution take place within species yet people put faith in it. Granted there is evidence that it took place but there is also evidence for a creative God.
What is the opposing view of why amputees are the way they are? How does one come to be an amputee in the first place? Is that Gods fault? They chose to fight in a war. Someone chose to drink and drive or talk on their cell phone instead of paying attention and got into a wreck. Maybe the person didnt want to go to the doctor to take care of an infection and lost a limb. Bad things happen all the time. You wouldnt learn not to touch the stove if it didnt leave you burned for life.
and no Gerny ole boy we dont agree that God doesnt answer prayers.
No one has ever actually witnessed evolution take place within species yet people put faith in it. Granted there is evidence that it took place but there is also evidence for a creative God. .
There is hard evidence of evolution of a species. What hard evidence is there of a creative god if you do not have 'faith'? None. It's all based on beliefs.
(GB - would you please transcribe the 10 questions from the video to make it easier for someone who is actually willing to answer to do so?)
Here you go...
1. Why won't god heal amputees? (1:22)
2. Why are there so many starving people in our world? (2:27)
3. Why does god demand the death of so many innocent people in the bible? (3:10)
4. Why does the bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense? (4:00)
5. Why is god such a huge proponent of slavery in the bible? (5:10)
6. Why do bad things happen to good people? (5:26)
7. Why is there no evidence of Jesus' miracles? (5:33)
8. How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you? (5:43)
9. Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood? (5:59)
10. Why to christians get divorced at the same rate of non-Christians? (6:17)
To believe in god you must make all sorts of strange rationalizations and excuses....to those that do not believe in god all the answers make complete sense.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
Johnny,Gern do you guy's believe that there is a after life ? where dose your spirit go once the body
dies ? not trying to stir up crap just curious about what you think of your soul or do you believe that man has a soul ? basically what do you all think will happen when you die.
Johnny,Gern do you guy's believe that there is a after life ? where dose your spirit go once the body
dies ? not trying to stir up crap just curious about what you think of your soul or do you believe that man has a soul ? basically what do you all think will happen when you die.
Godfather.
just like a squirrel that dies on the road and withers away to nothing we are the same
we are animals
I will be cremated so as not to take up useful ground for future generations....at what point will the cemeteries occupy more ground than living humans?
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
No God answers all prayers. It may not be the answer that YOU wanted but he is sovereign and just in his actions for YOUR ultimate betterment.
Yep... when my 'believing' friend prayed for my husband, I guess god found it amusing that for his ultimate betterment, my husband will be disabled and not able to care for his family. Yay!
the last 2 examples I'm just not getting
mommy needs to get her ass away from a daddy who beats her not only for her own sake but for her daughters
and having been myself disabled this year yes, I've seen the kindness and good that comes from pain and sorrow.
I guess its all in how you look at things
blaming god just seem to cause a very bitter person who chooses not to see the good.
(GB - would you please transcribe the 10 questions from the video to make it easier for someone who is actually willing to answer to do so?)
Here you go...
1. Why won't god heal amputees? (1:22)
2. Why are there so many starving people in our world? (2:27)
3. Why does god demand the death of so many innocent people in the bible? (3:10)
4. Why does the bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense? (4:00)
5. Why is god such a huge proponent of slavery in the bible? (5:10)
6. Why do bad things happen to good people? (5:26)
7. Why is there no evidence of Jesus' miracles? (5:33)
8. How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you? (5:43)
9. Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood? (5:59)
10. Why to christians get divorced at the same rate of non-Christians? (6:17)
To believe in god you must make all sorts of strange rationalizations and excuses....to those that do not believe in god all the answers make complete sense.
1. You dont have emperical evidence that he NEVER has in the history of the world healed an amputee. The bible has evidence that Jesus in fact has. Illness, suffering, and pain are the result of our living in a cursed world—cursed because of our sin (Genesis 3:16-19; Romans 8:20-22). God’s goodness and love moved Him to provide a Savior to redeem us from the curse (1 John 4:9-10), but our ultimate redemption will not be realized until God has made a final end of sin in the world. Until that time, we are still subject to physical death and dismemberment. If God’s love required Him to heal every disease and infirmity, then no one would ever die—because "love" would maintain everyone in perfect health furthing us in our sinful nature. The biblical definition of love is "a sacrificial seeking what is best for the loved one." Look at amputees that have God as a savior's attitudes compared to those who dont. There is the evidence.
2. This goes back to the above answer. The world is cursed.
3. Death is demanded of by everyone for one what makes these people special is the story they left behind. God uses Abraham’s faith as an example to all who came after him as the only means of salvation. He was asked to sacrifice his son and he went to do it willingly and God said he didnt half to. We are all demanded to sacrifice our own lives for God. Its the example.
4. One would have to know all scientific information in existance was infact true beyond a shadow of a doubt to make this claim. This guy doesnt know everything. Newtonian laws have holes as does evolution.
5. We are to be a slave to our master. God. Refered to countless times.
6. Bad things happen to all people. Result of the cursed world.
7. When is eyewitness account, written word, and word of mouth, not considered evidence. "A huge cloud of spinning dirt, sounded like a freight train, came down out of the sky and lifted my trailer house into the air." Say you've never seen a tornado would you not believe this to be true? Spiritual evidence exists in people who follow God. Miracles exist so a supernatural foce exists. "Its a miracle that guy landed the plane in the Hudson." Who were people praying to when it went down?
8. He in Spirit appears to me all the time. I dont see him but my body physically feels him and my mind recognizes the lessons hes there to bring to me. You have to want that experience before you can get it.
9. This is a rediculous question. Its not ment to be taken literally. Its an act of accepting his life example and taking it into your life.
10. Christians believe it or not are human beings too. Sinners. The problem is Christians are always under the microscope of the outside world. Judged by those who are also going to be judged. Following Christ isnt easy, straying from sin isnt easy.
To not believe in God all these questions make complete sense???? Okay now its the oppositions turn to rationalize your views on these questions.
No God answers all prayers. It may not be the answer that YOU wanted but he is sovereign and just in his actions for YOUR ultimate betterment.
yes it is sovereign and just for him to answer NO!!! to the little girl that prays her daddy stops beating her mommy
thank you jesus!!!
You cant know why those things happen or how God uses them to affect other people. Take Eddie for example. You think if he didnt get his ass beat and had the rough life he did that he could reach so many people with his art?
Johnny,Gern do you guy's believe that there is a after life ? where dose your spirit go once the body
dies ? not trying to stir up crap just curious about what you think of your soul or do you believe that man has a soul ? basically what do you all think will happen when you die.
Godfather.
nope. I'm with Gern. I'm future ash. Nothing more. So are you.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
(GB - would you please transcribe the 10 questions from the video to make it easier for someone who is actually willing to answer to do so?)
Here you go...
1. Why won't god heal amputees? (1:22)
2. Why are there so many starving people in our world? (2:27)
3. Why does god demand the death of so many innocent people in the bible? (3:10)
4. Why does the bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense? (4:00)
5. Why is god such a huge proponent of slavery in the bible? (5:10)
6. Why do bad things happen to good people? (5:26)
7. Why is there no evidence of Jesus' miracles? (5:33)
8. How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you? (5:43)
9. Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood? (5:59)
10. Why to christians get divorced at the same rate of non-Christians? (6:17)
To believe in god you must make all sorts of strange rationalizations and excuses....to those that do not believe in god all the answers make complete sense.
These types of questions are usually posed by some of the most close-minded of people.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
(GB - would you please transcribe the 10 questions from the video to make it easier for someone who is actually willing to answer to do so?)
Here you go...
1. Why won't god heal amputees? (1:22)
2. Why are there so many starving people in our world? (2:27)
3. Why does god demand the death of so many innocent people in the bible? (3:10)
4. Why does the bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense? (4:00)
5. Why is god such a huge proponent of slavery in the bible? (5:10)
6. Why do bad things happen to good people? (5:26)
7. Why is there no evidence of Jesus' miracles? (5:33)
8. How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you? (5:43)
9. Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood? (5:59)
10. Why to christians get divorced at the same rate of non-Christians? (6:17)
To believe in god you must make all sorts of strange rationalizations and excuses....to those that do not believe in god all the answers make complete sense.
1. You dont have emperical evidence that he NEVER has in the history of the world healed an amputee. The bible has evidence that Jesus in fact has. Illness, suffering, and pain are the result of our living in a cursed world—cursed because of our sin (Genesis 3:16-19; Romans 8:20-22). God’s goodness and love moved Him to provide a Savior to redeem us from the curse (1 John 4:9-10), but our ultimate redemption will not be realized until God has made a final end of sin in the world. Until that time, we are still subject to physical death and dismemberment. If God’s love required Him to heal every disease and infirmity, then no one would ever die—because "love" would maintain everyone in perfect health furthing us in our sinful nature. The biblical definition of love is "a sacrificial seeking what is best for the loved one." Look at amputees that have God as a savior's attitudes compared to those who dont. There is the evidence.
2. This goes back to the above answer. The world is cursed.
3. Death is demanded of by everyone for one what makes these people special is the story they left behind. God uses Abraham’s faith as an example to all who came after him as the only means of salvation. He was asked to sacrifice his son and he went to do it willingly and God said he didnt half to. We are all demanded to sacrifice our own lives for God. Its the example.
4. One would have to know all scientific information in existance was infact true beyond a shadow of a doubt to make this claim. This guy doesnt know everything. Newtonian laws have holes as does evolution.
5. We are to be a slave to our master. God. Refered to countless times.
6. Bad things happen to all people. Result of the cursed world.
7. When is eyewitness account, written word, and word of mouth, not considered evidence. "A huge cloud of spinning dirt, sounded like a freight train, came down out of the sky and lifted my trailer house into the air." Say you've never seen a tornado would you not believe this to be true? Spiritual evidence exists in people who follow God. Miracles exist so a supernatural foce exists. "Its a miracle that guy landed the plane in the Hudson." Who were people praying to when it went down?
8. He in Spirit appears to me all the time. I dont see him but my body physically feels him and my mind recognizes the lessons hes there to bring to me. You have to want that experience before you can get it.
9. This is a rediculous question. Its not ment to be taken literally. Its an act of accepting his life example and taking it into your life.
10. Christians believe it or not are human beings too. Sinners. The problem is Christians are always under the microscope of the outside world. Judged by those who are also going to be judged. Following Christ isnt easy, straying from sin isnt easy.
To not believe in God all these questions make complete sense???? Okay now its the oppositions turn to rationalize your views on these questions.
1) since when is lack of evidence of not doing something proof that it may have happened? that's ridiculous. Also, with regards to the last statement for this number, I know plenty of non-christians that have WAY better attitudes towards life than christians. that is not evidence.
2) because man in power is greedy.
3) alrighty
4) alrighty
5) then heaven is a slave labour camp. whoopie.
6) yes, they do. I guess god just doesn't care!
7) eyewitness account from people from that long ago, who didn't know which way was up, is not credible. any intelligent person knows that. back then they probably thought a tornado was an act of god and the person caught in it "deserved it" or it was a sign or something. the plane landing in the hudson was not a miracle. the guy was an excellent pilot, and all the right things happened to be on his side.
8) if you believe that, all well and good
9) agreed, it is a ridiculous question. even I can tell you that.
10) christians didn't used to get divorced because it was frowned upon by the church. many uber-religious people still believe that divorce before god is the ultimate sin, so they stay unhappy and miserable for life because they think that's what god wants. finally the church has some sense in this regard.
non-christians to rationalize their views? you keep showing us time and again how much you respect our beliefs. :roll:
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
and having been myself disabled this year yes, I've seen the kindness and good that comes from pain and sorrow.
Good for you. My husband sees the same kindess and good as before. He sees a LOT more pain and sorrow than he did before. He is not the man he used to be and cannot pretend he will ever be, not because he is bitter or 'can't get over it' or whatever, but because physically it will never happen. It's sort of sad that you had to see 'kindness and good that comes from pain and sorrow' as opposed to having the kindess and the good before the sorrow.
blaming god just seem to cause a very bitter person who chooses not to see the good.
If this is addressed to me, I never blamed god. I don't believe in god. That is the point. God inflicting 'pain' (broad term) for our ultimate betterment is just full of shit. Maybe someone will say 'he beat the shit out of me, paralysing me in the process but hey... sitting in my wheelchair, I saw kindness and goodness from the people that helped me have a shit, get dressed, feed me because I can't do it myself. Ultimate betterment?
What about these two young boys that tortured another pair of young boys, completely traumatizing them (amongst other things). What is the ultimate betterment for these poor little boys who have suffered and are scared to go out, etc.?
The thing is, if one feels they need to justify that their almighty, loving, good god is capable of inflicting such pain and suffering on 'his flock' (ie wars, destruction, etc., all mentioned in this thread already) by sayig 'it's for your own good/betterment' or it's because the world is 'cursed', to me, they have run out of steam. A bit like answering a kid with 'because' when you don't know the answer.
the last 2 examples I'm just not getting
mommy needs to get her ass away from a daddy who beats her not only for her own sake but for her daughters
and having been myself disabled this year yes, I've seen the kindness and good that comes from pain and sorrow.
I guess its all in how you look at things
blaming god just seem to cause a very bitter person who chooses not to see the good.
disagree....the argument was "does god answer prayers"
my example of the little girl praying when she hears her father beating her mother has nothing to do with a decision to leave....the prayer request was made and god answered "NO!!!"
and of course I'm not blaming god...I don't blame god for not answering prayers anymore than I blame my dog because neither one of them answer prayers
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
No God answers all prayers. It may not be the answer that YOU wanted but he is sovereign and just in his actions for YOUR ultimate betterment.
yes it is sovereign and just for him to answer NO!!! to the little girl that prays her daddy stops beating her mommy
thank you jesus!!!
You cant know why those things happen or how God uses them to affect other people. Take Eddie for example. You think if he didnt get his ass beat and had the rough life he did that he could reach so many people with his art?
so you must agree that prayer is useless than right? if god is going to do something to affect them the prayer would have no affect on his decision so why pray?
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
Take Eddie for example. You think if he didnt get his ass beat and had the rough life he did that he could reach so many people with his art?
Rough life?!?!?! Ed can sing and can write songs (oh... I get it... talent given to him by god), really... let's not look too much into it. Plenty of very famous artists/musicians reach many more people than Eddie does and a 'rough life' is not a pre-requisite for that. Please....
No God answers all prayers. It may not be the answer that YOU wanted but he is sovereign and just in his actions for YOUR ultimate betterment.
yes it is sovereign and just for him to answer NO!!! to the little girl that prays her daddy stops beating her mommy
thank you jesus!!!
You cant know why those things happen or how God uses them to affect other people. Take Eddie for example. You think if he didnt get his ass beat and had the rough life he did that he could reach so many people with his art?
Eddie is an atheist
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
So by implying that the world isnt perfect, bad things happen and there must not be a good and perfect God that created it you are claiming that you know how the world should be designed correctly. Suboptimal design doesnt mean there is no designer. You dont know the objective of the designer. See Stephen Jay Gould's example of the pandas thumb. He claims it was imperfectly designed but matter of fact science has found that it was perfectly designed to do what it was made to do. If we dont know what the designer intended then we cant say that the design fell short of those intentions.
Throw creationisim and Christianity out the window and build a foundation on this theory.
I'm using Eddie as an example of how when you experience bad things you can relate to people who also experience bad things. Iron sharpens iron. Him being an atheist doesnt matter. I can still see and sympathize with him.
So by implying that the world isnt perfect, bad things happen and there must not be a good and perfect God that created it you are claiming that you know how the world should be designed correctly. Suboptimal design doesnt mean there is no designer. You dont know the objective of the designer. See Stephen Jay Gould's example of the pandas thumb. He claims it was imperfectly designed but matter of fact science has found that it was perfectly designed to do what it was made to do. If we dont know what the designer intended then we cant say that the design fell short of those intentions.
Throw creationisim and Christianity out the window and build a foundation on this theory.
Comments
this is exactly the reason I believe man created god. man has a need for him. man feels despair and questions life's purpose, and creating a god that will save us in the afterlife and is all-knowing gives us peace of mind in this life. it's no coincidence that those who turn to god have some feeling of being lost or that they are missing something in life. the hunter then pounces on its prey.
someone said it best in the other thread: in ancient times, men of power telling his subjects that god speaks to him and he has the power of god was the perfect way of keeping everyone in line. man created god to instill fear in other men. the church, ancient and present, has been controlling humanity since the dawn of time.
and just to be clear: no, I'm not talking about the illuminati or other conspiracy theories.
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neither: religious folk that go around telling you they "know" that your life is not complete, and that they have all the answers you seek.
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I prefer an agnostic point of view rather than "super-atheism" however I don't think belief in a god is rational. The existence of a god, or anything, is possible, but it is just one possibility, of which there is no detectable evidence for, among an infinite amount of possibilities, most of which humans may have not even thought of. There are many common arguments for the existence of a god, however are all undone by the same logic used to present them.
"With our thoughts we make the world"
these are both good points. it is certainly possible that man created god in his image - i cannot prove god exists and will never tell you i can. however i do have some thoughts about this first issue:
first, either god exists or god does not exist, right? i mean we can't really have much compromise on that particular issue; some kind of half-existent god i guess makes no sense. so if god exists, god exists. it doesn't matter whether or not people wish it to be so. and, frankly, there are people who want god not to exist. does this make it more likely god does not exist, because some people wish it?
as to the despair and questioning of life's purpose, well, everybody feels that, right? you, me, super-fundamentalist right wing christian whackos and vitriolic anti-god crusaders. in fact, i think the despair and questioning is one of the more universal things we humans share. i do not claim this proves the existence of god (clearly it doesn't) but it could be interpreted as indicating that we are meant to, well, seek, god. could be, right? that's my opinion.
the whole idea about religion being used as a tool to subert independent thought, you know, keep people in line, i agree wholeheartedly, this has happened. in fact (as you know) it still happens today. it pisses me off like nothing else to see people misinterpret what i view as a pretty simple message and use it to keep others down, in any way. but again, this does not mean the essential belief is either false or true. i mentioned those guys who falsified the climate change data (or whatever) above, and i think it might be a fair comparison - just becasue some scientists did unethical things to promote their agenda doesn't mean their underlying beliefs are false. (quite the contrary in this case i think...) and one last point on this topic: the actual message of jesus that the gospels contain is definitely not one of subservience to men of power or the church. quite the contrary, jesus kind of told people to upset the current social and religious order - and was killed for it. churches trying to wring subservience out of believers to follow a particular, rigid religious order is, i believe, a gross misinterpretation.
yes, that is extremely fucking arrogant. i do not know your life is incomplete. if i were to assume, i would guess parts of your life are very rewarding and parts are difficult, exactly like my own life. i believe in god, and i am a christian, but i definitely do not have all the answers you seek - hell, i don't have all the answers i seek (maybe i'm not doing it right, haha).
i am in this thread because i want to learn. i want to have intellectually honest conversations about faith and god - with both people who think like me, and people who think i am completely full of shit. that is sometimes a very hard thing to do - gets really emotional, or whatever. oh, and i also want to refute the initial claim, evident in the original video in this thread, that belief in god cannot be rational.
phew!
good. i like to see an agnostic point of view because that means that you, like me, aren't completely sure about what's what. i think we can have much more intersting conversations in the grey area...
and when i said "suppose i believe the evidence for god's existense is completely overwhelming" i was just framing my point in the terms the guy with the video used. i in fact don't believe the evidence for god is "overwhelming." personally, i think there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that indicates god does exist. but my faith is (on my good-faith days) more than the sum of these indicators.
as such, i would never try to prove to you that god does exist using only logic. however, i believe i can use logic as one tool among many to lead me to the conclusion that god is real. and this isn't so off base, is it? i mean a lot of what we tiny humans hold most dear is a weird, sometimes screwed up jumble of logic, emotion, evidence, hope, empiricism and faith.
(and sorry for saying "super-atheist" - i guess that could come across as kind of offensive to some...)
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
honestly I would say the former because we all can agree that god does not answer prayers
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
So if men are capable of evil and evolution changes things to fix problems common with species why havent we seen this take place? Men have gotten progressively worse.
No one has ever actually witnessed evolution take place within species yet people put faith in it. Granted there is evidence that it took place but there is also evidence for a creative God.
What is the opposing view of why amputees are the way they are? How does one come to be an amputee in the first place? Is that Gods fault? They chose to fight in a war. Someone chose to drink and drive or talk on their cell phone instead of paying attention and got into a wreck. Maybe the person didnt want to go to the doctor to take care of an infection and lost a limb. Bad things happen all the time. You wouldnt learn not to touch the stove if it didnt leave you burned for life.
and no Gerny ole boy we dont agree that God doesnt answer prayers.
There is hard evidence of evolution of a species. What hard evidence is there of a creative god if you do not have 'faith'? None. It's all based on beliefs.
Here you go...
1. Why won't god heal amputees? (1:22)
2. Why are there so many starving people in our world? (2:27)
3. Why does god demand the death of so many innocent people in the bible? (3:10)
4. Why does the bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense? (4:00)
5. Why is god such a huge proponent of slavery in the bible? (5:10)
6. Why do bad things happen to good people? (5:26)
7. Why is there no evidence of Jesus' miracles? (5:33)
8. How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you? (5:43)
9. Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood? (5:59)
10. Why to christians get divorced at the same rate of non-Christians? (6:17)
To believe in god you must make all sorts of strange rationalizations and excuses....to those that do not believe in god all the answers make complete sense.
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
if you agree that he answers most of them "no" then we can agree I guess
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
dies ? not trying to stir up crap just curious about what you think of your soul or do you believe that man has a soul ? basically what do you all think will happen when you die.
Godfather.
just like a squirrel that dies on the road and withers away to nothing we are the same
we are animals
I will be cremated so as not to take up useful ground for future generations....at what point will the cemeteries occupy more ground than living humans?
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
No God answers all prayers. It may not be the answer that YOU wanted but he is sovereign and just in his actions for YOUR ultimate betterment.
yes it is sovereign and just for him to answer NO!!! to the little girl that prays her daddy stops beating her mommy
thank you jesus!!!
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
Yep... when my 'believing' friend prayed for my husband, I guess god found it amusing that for his ultimate betterment, my husband will be disabled and not able to care for his family. Yay!
mommy needs to get her ass away from a daddy who beats her not only for her own sake but for her daughters
and having been myself disabled this year yes, I've seen the kindness and good that comes from pain and sorrow.
I guess its all in how you look at things
blaming god just seem to cause a very bitter person who chooses not to see the good.
1. You dont have emperical evidence that he NEVER has in the history of the world healed an amputee. The bible has evidence that Jesus in fact has. Illness, suffering, and pain are the result of our living in a cursed world—cursed because of our sin (Genesis 3:16-19; Romans 8:20-22). God’s goodness and love moved Him to provide a Savior to redeem us from the curse (1 John 4:9-10), but our ultimate redemption will not be realized until God has made a final end of sin in the world. Until that time, we are still subject to physical death and dismemberment. If God’s love required Him to heal every disease and infirmity, then no one would ever die—because "love" would maintain everyone in perfect health furthing us in our sinful nature. The biblical definition of love is "a sacrificial seeking what is best for the loved one." Look at amputees that have God as a savior's attitudes compared to those who dont. There is the evidence.
2. This goes back to the above answer. The world is cursed.
3. Death is demanded of by everyone for one what makes these people special is the story they left behind. God uses Abraham’s faith as an example to all who came after him as the only means of salvation. He was asked to sacrifice his son and he went to do it willingly and God said he didnt half to. We are all demanded to sacrifice our own lives for God. Its the example.
4. One would have to know all scientific information in existance was infact true beyond a shadow of a doubt to make this claim. This guy doesnt know everything. Newtonian laws have holes as does evolution.
5. We are to be a slave to our master. God. Refered to countless times.
6. Bad things happen to all people. Result of the cursed world.
7. When is eyewitness account, written word, and word of mouth, not considered evidence. "A huge cloud of spinning dirt, sounded like a freight train, came down out of the sky and lifted my trailer house into the air." Say you've never seen a tornado would you not believe this to be true? Spiritual evidence exists in people who follow God. Miracles exist so a supernatural foce exists. "Its a miracle that guy landed the plane in the Hudson." Who were people praying to when it went down?
8. He in Spirit appears to me all the time. I dont see him but my body physically feels him and my mind recognizes the lessons hes there to bring to me. You have to want that experience before you can get it.
9. This is a rediculous question. Its not ment to be taken literally. Its an act of accepting his life example and taking it into your life.
10. Christians believe it or not are human beings too. Sinners. The problem is Christians are always under the microscope of the outside world. Judged by those who are also going to be judged. Following Christ isnt easy, straying from sin isnt easy.
To not believe in God all these questions make complete sense???? Okay now its the oppositions turn to rationalize your views on these questions.
You cant know why those things happen or how God uses them to affect other people. Take Eddie for example. You think if he didnt get his ass beat and had the rough life he did that he could reach so many people with his art?
nope. I'm with Gern. I'm future ash. Nothing more. So are you.
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Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
These types of questions are usually posed by some of the most close-minded of people.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
1) since when is lack of evidence of not doing something proof that it may have happened? that's ridiculous. Also, with regards to the last statement for this number, I know plenty of non-christians that have WAY better attitudes towards life than christians. that is not evidence.
2) because man in power is greedy.
3) alrighty
4) alrighty
5) then heaven is a slave labour camp. whoopie.
6) yes, they do. I guess god just doesn't care!
7) eyewitness account from people from that long ago, who didn't know which way was up, is not credible. any intelligent person knows that. back then they probably thought a tornado was an act of god and the person caught in it "deserved it" or it was a sign or something. the plane landing in the hudson was not a miracle. the guy was an excellent pilot, and all the right things happened to be on his side.
8) if you believe that, all well and good
9) agreed, it is a ridiculous question. even I can tell you that.
10) christians didn't used to get divorced because it was frowned upon by the church. many uber-religious people still believe that divorce before god is the ultimate sin, so they stay unhappy and miserable for life because they think that's what god wants. finally the church has some sense in this regard.
non-christians to rationalize their views? you keep showing us time and again how much you respect our beliefs. :roll:
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Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Good for you. My husband sees the same kindess and good as before. He sees a LOT more pain and sorrow than he did before. He is not the man he used to be and cannot pretend he will ever be, not because he is bitter or 'can't get over it' or whatever, but because physically it will never happen. It's sort of sad that you had to see 'kindness and good that comes from pain and sorrow' as opposed to having the kindess and the good before the sorrow.
If this is addressed to me, I never blamed god. I don't believe in god. That is the point. God inflicting 'pain' (broad term) for our ultimate betterment is just full of shit. Maybe someone will say 'he beat the shit out of me, paralysing me in the process but hey... sitting in my wheelchair, I saw kindness and goodness from the people that helped me have a shit, get dressed, feed me because I can't do it myself. Ultimate betterment?
What about these two young boys that tortured another pair of young boys, completely traumatizing them (amongst other things). What is the ultimate betterment for these poor little boys who have suffered and are scared to go out, etc.?
The thing is, if one feels they need to justify that their almighty, loving, good god is capable of inflicting such pain and suffering on 'his flock' (ie wars, destruction, etc., all mentioned in this thread already) by sayig 'it's for your own good/betterment' or it's because the world is 'cursed', to me, they have run out of steam. A bit like answering a kid with 'because' when you don't know the answer.
disagree....the argument was "does god answer prayers"
my example of the little girl praying when she hears her father beating her mother has nothing to do with a decision to leave....the prayer request was made and god answered "NO!!!"
and of course I'm not blaming god...I don't blame god for not answering prayers anymore than I blame my dog because neither one of them answer prayers
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
so you must agree that prayer is useless than right? if god is going to do something to affect them the prayer would have no affect on his decision so why pray?
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
Rough life?!?!?! Ed can sing and can write songs (oh... I get it... talent given to him by god), really... let's not look too much into it. Plenty of very famous artists/musicians reach many more people than Eddie does and a 'rough life' is not a pre-requisite for that. Please....
Eddie is an atheist
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
Throw creationisim and Christianity out the window and build a foundation on this theory.
http://www.intelligentdesign.org/whatisid.php
you're kidding right? ID is considered junk science or pseudoscience by all academia but a few fringe wackos
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2