God... Christ... The Bible

EddieLedBetter

Why is it so unbelievable?

Gern Blansten

Why is Santa Claus unbelievable? or the Tooth Fairy?

You believe in god/christ because someone told you to....not because there is any evidence

DeLukin

It's all about where you put your faith... to some, it's very believable.

EddieLedBetter

Santa Claus and the tooth fairy never were publicly convicted, tortured or put to death. Not a good enough argument. Why would one wish to make this story up and have it passed down through the ages? What would be the purpose of that if there wasnt some truth?

CJMST3K

To play devil's advocate...

EddieLedBetter wrote:

Santa Claus and the tooth fairy never were publicly convicted, tortured or put to death. Not a good enough argument.

Fair enough for that tooth-fairy comment made earlier. What about people who celebrate Muhammad? Why is Jesus the "real" god? Why isn't Buddah the real god? Or Muhammad? or so on...

EddieLedBetter wrote:

Why would one wish to make this story up and have it passed down through the ages?

Because it's a scary thought that when we die, that is it. A very good motive, if you ask me. Religion is also about human culture, and in human culture there is peer pressure. If a person grew up going to (insert house of worship here), then they would probably end up bringing their children there. Hence why you see certain religions more in certain areas. ...or the god they worship only exists in that region.

EddieLedBetter wrote:

What would be the purpose of that if there wasnt some truth?

see above...
...and what do you define as "some truth". Are you talking verifiable truth, with physical evidence, or some other truth which cannot be proved? If the latter, then would a neutral third-party call it the "truth"?

Gern Blansten

EddieLedBetter wrote:

Santa Claus and the tooth fairy never were publicly convicted, tortured or put to death. Not a good enough argument. Why would one wish to make this story up and have it passed down through the ages? What would be the purpose of that if there wasnt some truth?

Is there truth to the Mormon religion? Scientology? Both of those "stories" have been passed down through the ages.

Corduroy997

God and The Bible is two different things for me. I believe that lots of things in The Bible are completely off track. For me, God must be some sort of force (of nature), that we never will be able to understand or explain. How could you explain the fantastic lives which we've been giving, and the perfedt cycle of life, or even the feeling of being ALIVE. Science is very important piece of todays progress, and there is nothing I find more interesting! But when it comes to God, I think science is coming short. It is like my grandfather said to me before he died: Think of a car. It is made by us, the way we are made by God. The car "understand" things like when it's out of gas it stops, and when we push brake it brakes, but it could never explain where it came from. And it's the same way with us. We can learn and understand lots of things, but we can never really tell who put us here and why. It is just beyond our ability to understand.

Gern Blansten

Corduroy997 wrote:

God and The Bible is two different things for me. I believe that lots of things in The Bible are completely off track. For me, God must be some sort of force (of nature), that we never will be able to understand or explain. How could you explain the fantastic lives which we've been giving, and the perfedt cycle of life, or even the feeling of being ALIVE. Science is very important piece of todays progress, and there is nothing I find more interesting! But when it comes to God, I think science is coming short. It is like my grandfather said to me before he died: Think of a car. It is made by us, the way we are made by God. The car "understand" things like when it's out of gas it stops, and when we push brake it brakes, but it could never explain where it came from. And it's the same way with us. We can learn and understand lots of things, but we can never really tell who put us here and why. It is just beyond our ability to understand.

fantastic lives? what about people whose fantastic lives are cut short by cancer? auto accident? What about the fantastic children that they leave behind?

different analogy please....

Cosmo

Corduroy997 wrote:

God and The Bible is two different things for me. I believe that lots of things in The Bible are completely off track. For me, God must be some sort of force (of nature), that we never will be able to understand or explain. How could you explain the fantastic lives which we've been giving, and the perfedt cycle of life, or even the feeling of being ALIVE. Science is very important piece of todays progress, and there is nothing I find more interesting! But when it comes to God, I think science is coming short. It is like my grandfather said to me before he died: Think of a car. It is made by us, the way we are made by God. The car "understand" things like when it's out of gas it stops, and when we push brake it brakes, but it could never explain where it came from. And it's the same way with us. We can learn and understand lots of things, but we can never really tell who put us here and why. It is just beyond our ability to understand.

...
I can sort of see what you are trying to say... but... the car does not understand anything. It will sit there forever unless there is the operator/driver providing every input to it. if we are like cars... then, God is providing all of the inputs... including the inputs to lie, cheat, deceive, murder, rape, molest, etc... These are not things normally associated with God, right?
But, i get your basic point , we will never understand God. This does not mean we cannot pursue the truth behind Him.
The God of religion was created by Man... created in Man's image. This way, man can have someone the blame and someone to lean on at the same time. Religion claims to be a conduit that connects mankind to God... but, in most cases, it creates a barrier between you and God. You are taught about God by other men who want you to follow their interpretations of what Gods wants from you. How about you find God... in your own way?

Corduroy997

fantastic lives? what about people whose fantastic lives are cut short by cancer? auto accident? What about the fantastic children that they leave behind?

different analogy please....

Not necessary fantastic in that kind of way, I meant of life generally.. That something actually can live, breathe the air, have it's own feelings, yo know.. be alive.. I'm totally aware that so many people have been born into poverty, misery, war, the whole lot.. And that again, raises the question; if there's a God, why does he leave people in such poor conditions? And I have no answer.. Nobody has.. But I think that God doesn't control that.. I think that it has turned out this way from all the different interests of man.. Many of the conflicts and wars going on today is much because of different religious views! So that God can mean so much to so many people, really shows you how much this topic contains.

Gern Blansten

Corduroy997 wrote:

fantastic lives? what about people whose fantastic lives are cut short by cancer? auto accident? What about the fantastic children that they leave behind?

different analogy please....

Not necessary fantastic in that kind of way, I meant of life generally.. That something actually can live, breathe the air, have it's own feelings, yo know.. be alive.. I'm totally aware that so many people have been born into poverty, misery, war, the whole lot.. And that again, raises the question; if there's a God, why does he leave people in such poor conditions? And I have no answer.. Nobody has.. But I think that God doesn't control that.. I think that it has turned out this way from all the different interests of man.. Many of the conflicts and wars going on today is much because of different religious views! So that God can mean so much to so many people, really shows you how much this topic contains.

if you agree that god doesn't control "that" than what does he control?

Cosmo

Corduroy997 wrote:

Not necessary fantastic in that kind of way, I meant of life generally.. That something actually can live, breathe the air, have it's own feelings, yo know.. be alive.. I'm totally aware that so many people have been born into poverty, misery, war, the whole lot.. And that again, raises the question; if there's a God, why does he leave people in such poor conditions? And I have no answer.. Nobody has.. But I think that God doesn't control that.. I think that it has turned out this way from all the different interests of man.. Many of the conflicts and wars going on today is much because of different religious views! So that God can mean so much to so many people, really shows you how much this topic contains.

...
Or maybe... God is not part of this equation.
Maybe we, Mankind, like to place that burden upon God's shoulders so we don't have to be responsible for our own lot. Maybe God has nothing to do with setting our destiny or answering our prayers. Maybe we should take on our own reponsibilities and answer our own prayers by actually doing what we think God should be doing for us.

Corduroy997

Gern Blansten wrote:

if you agree that god doesn't control "that" than what does he control?

I don't think he controls anything.. I think he created, and will destroy. The in between is ours
But I have no idea. I'm not religious at all, so I don't think of God as a man up in heaven with long brown hair and a nice beard.. Rather some sort of force.. Don't know, just like to speculate..

Cosmo

Corduroy997 wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

if you agree that god doesn't control "that" than what does he control?

I don't think he controls anything.. I think he created, and will destroy. The in between is ours
But I have no idea. I'm not religious at all, so I don't think of God as a man up in heaven with long brown hair and a nice beard.. Rather some sort of force.. Don't know, just like to speculate..

...
Then, you sound like you are in the same boat as I am...
I believe that the Image of God is life, itself. From the simplest bacteria to the Blue Whale... the blade of grass and the highly evolved primate... the life that each possesses if God. Man does not own exclusive rights to God.

Corduroy997

Cosmo wrote:

Corduroy997 wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

if you agree that god doesn't control "that" than what does he control?

I don't think he controls anything.. I think he created, and will destroy. The in between is ours
But I have no idea. I'm not religious at all, so I don't think of God as a man up in heaven with long brown hair and a nice beard.. Rather some sort of force.. Don't know, just like to speculate..

...
Then, you sound like you are in the same boat as I am...
I believe that the Image of God is life, itself. From the simplest bacteria to the Blue Whale... the blade of grass and the highly evolved primate... the life that each possesses if God. Man does not own exclusive rights to God.

Exactly;)

BinFrog

EddieLedBetter wrote:

Santa Claus and the tooth fairy never were publicly convicted, tortured or put to death. Not a good enough argument. Why would one wish to make this story up and have it passed down through the ages? What would be the purpose of that if there wasnt some truth?

Civilization was in a vastly different place thousands of years ago. The religious texts were literally compilations of hand me down stories, as well as a loose moral code which, as we know, was very much left open to interpretation. The religious leaders at the time were not the same as we think of them now...they were very much creators of what we now view as classic religions. There was no template. But at that time people were very curious, scared, illiterate, and very easily controlled. If you put your faith in a religious figure, who in turn tells you that there is an afterlife, and that being humble in this life will lead to a great afterlife, and that the Old Testament/et al are the word of god...do you have any reason to question him? No. You don't realize that you CAN question the words from the religious leaders. And if you don't question them, you obey.

And the funny thing is that, oddly enough, those religious leaders were usually the wealthy elite. So keeping people humble meant they could live a lavish lifestyle. Imagine that: those telling people to be humble were in fact not humble themselves. They knew how to exploit the uneducated. And you wonder why money and power corrupt.

Let's put it this way: If someone were alive today claiming to be the son of god, and said he had direct access to the big man himself and knew how we should live...would we believe him? No. We would call him the leader of a cult, or cast him of as a David Copperfield clone if he tried to do any of his magic tricks so to speak.

The key to the illusion of religion is realizing what the world was like when they came to be. As to why the masses continue to follow them, well, sometimes it's easier not to question things I suppose. That's my view at least.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

BinFrog wrote:

EddieLedBetter wrote:

Santa Claus and the tooth fairy never were publicly convicted, tortured or put to death. Not a good enough argument. Why would one wish to make this story up and have it passed down through the ages? What would be the purpose of that if there wasnt some truth?

Civilization was in a vastly different place thousands of years ago. The religious texts were literally compilations of hand me down stories, as well as a loose moral code which, as we know, was very much left open to interpretation. The religious leaders at the time were not the same as we think of them now...they were very much creators of what we now view as classic religions. There was no template. But at that time people were very curious, scared, illiterate, and very easily controlled. If you put your faith in a religious figure, who in turn tells you that there is an afterlife, and that being humble in this life will lead to a great afterlife, and that the Old Testament/et al are the word of god...do you have any reason to question him? No. You don't realize that you CAN question the words from the religious leaders. And if you don't question them, you obey.

And the funny thing is that, oddly enough, those religious leaders were usually the wealthy elite. So keeping people humble meant they could live a lavish lifestyle. Imagine that: those telling people to be humble were in fact not humble themselves. They knew how to exploit the uneducated. And you wonder why money and power corrupt.

Let's put it this way: If someone were alive today claiming to be the son of god, and said he had direct access to the big man himself and knew how we should live...would we believe him? No. We would call him the leader of a cult, or cast him of as a David Copperfield clone if he tried to do any of his magic tricks so to speak.

The key to the illusion of religion is realizing what the world was like when they came to be. As to why the masses continue to follow them, well, sometimes it's easier not to question things I suppose. That's my view at least.

perfectly stated.

skippybrew

EddieLedBetter wrote:

Why is it so unbelievable?

God... Is it unbelievable? I think most of the world believes in God, in some form or another.

Christ... Again, many religions have some sort of Christ to follow.

The Bible is unbelievable in the same way that any fantasy story is unbelievable. No one alive can say whether or not it's true (I don't think it is, but I'm only human, as are most of us). It has some good (though conflicting) messages, but if you believe it word for word then you should believe every story that's ever been published.

Cosmo

BinFrog wrote:

...Let's put it this way: If someone were alive today claiming to be the son of god, and said he had direct access to the big man himself and knew how we should live...would we believe him? No. We would call him the leader of a cult, or cast him of as a David Copperfield clone if he tried to do any of his magic tricks so to speak.

...
My guess... If Jesus were to come back today... most Americans would be okay with Him being water boarded at Guantanamo Bay.
Why? Well, Jesus was Middle Eastern... Jewish, to be exact. He would probably display physical traits closer to Usama Bin Laden, than Reverend Pat Robertson or Glenn Beck. Definately dressed more like Bin Laden, than in a suit and tie.
He would also be a radical... a 'leftist' and extreme liberal and in opposition to the Wars we have embarked on and our obsession with wealth and material goods. My guess is that He would more than likely have harsh words for us claiming to be a 'Christian Nation' while conducting wars, supporting Capital Punishment (which was the death of Him) and our global economic imperialism.
Thus... Jesus would probably end up on a 'No Fly List' and be tagged as a 'Terrorist'.
...
NOTE for those with their heads up their asses:
I am NOT saying Terrorists are Jesus. I am saying that since Jesus was a Middle Eastern Jew of 2000 years ago... to many Americans, He would look like their perception of what a Terrorist looks like. His radical views towards ancient Rome would translate to our standing as today's version of Roman Military and Economic power would most likely get Him tossed into the the same box with the 'Radical Islamists' (even if He was not preaching Islam). Jesus would NOT be preaching Christianity... He would be shepperding us back towards the God of the Jews... His original mission.
And someone from the Middle East... that looks like he's from the Middle East... telling us He is Jesus.
...
Put two and two together and tell me how you think we'd respond to that.

BinFrog

skippybrew wrote:

The Bible is unbelievable in the same way that any fantasy story is unbelievable. No one alive can say whether or not it's true (I don't think it is, but I'm only human, as are most of us). It has some good (though conflicting) messages, but if you believe it word for word then you should believe every story that's ever been published.

To me, the opposite is true: If you don't believe every book ever written, then why wouldn't you question the Bible as well?

Shawshank

I believe in God, and I believe that He came to the earth as a man (Jesus Christ). I believe He died and rose again. I believe was crucified, and died, not only for me, but also for those that will never believe in Him. To me, the difference between Jesus, and the rest of the historical figures that were mentioned is that we can go to the grave site of each and every one of them. We know where Muhammad is buried, we know the various locations where Buddha's ashes are buried. You won't find the body of Jesus, no matter what the Discovery Channel may say.

The crucifixion of Jesus is not just a Biblical tale, it is also a well documented event within Roman history. Early followers of Jesus thought He was all-powerful, and they anticipated Him to become a great King. So when he was nearly scourged to death and hung upon a tree until he died, the disappointment must have been enormous. In other words, it would not make sense for early followers to make up the story of the crucifixion because from their perspective it would have been somewhat embarrassing.

With Jesus becoming so influential, and so hated by the Jewish leaders of the day, make no mistake, if the men who condemned Him to death wanted to blow the lid off any notion that Jesus was the son of God, they could have easily produced His corpse if possible. These men were powerful, VERY wealthy, and held the public at bay with their words. No one dare question the Jewish leaders of that time. However, Jesus came down and essentially trashed them publicly and He paid the ultimate price for doing so. When word soon circulated that Jesus was once again roaming around town a few days later, these powerful men would have stopped at nothing to have His body hanging in the center of town if they could have. Many will say the disciples stole it in order to perpetuate the "myth" of Jesus. However, the strongest argument against this is that being associated with Jesus at that time, meant unimaginable persecution and hardship. Christians at the time were not the ego-centric, holier-than-thou, hypocrites they have become today. Infact, in today's world, many Christian chruch's with their legalism, ceremony and divisions have come to define exactly what Jesus railed against when He was here. Back then, acknowledging a belief in Jesus Christ could easily get you turned into a torch to provide light for the many Pagan temples. So why on earth would people be willing to sacrifice themselves, their families, and be tortured in every way conceivable for something that they knew was a lie? I'm not talking about having a false belief in something a few generations down, where you believe something to be true and are willing to die for it. I'm talking about people within the first generation of Christians that were willing to give their life, in order to profess their belief in Jesus Christ. If their belief was based on a known lie (i.e. Jesus never rose), then chances are we would have never heard much about the faith at all.

skippybrew

BinFrog wrote:

skippybrew wrote:

The Bible is unbelievable in the same way that any fantasy story is unbelievable. No one alive can say whether or not it's true (I don't think it is, but I'm only human, as are most of us). It has some good (though conflicting) messages, but if you believe it word for word then you should believe every story that's ever been published.

To me, the opposite is true: If you don't believe every book ever written, then why wouldn't you question the Bible as well?

...I don't think that's opposite, it's just another way of making the same connection. But the OP seems to believe in the bible so I used that angle.

melodious

I need all the God I can get...signing on!!!

EddieLedBetter

CJMST3K wrote:

To play devil's advocate...

EddieLedBetter wrote:

Santa Claus and the tooth fairy never were publicly convicted, tortured or put to death. Not a good enough argument.

Fair enough for that tooth-fairy comment made earlier. What about people who celebrate Muhammad? Why is Jesus the "real" god? Why isn't Buddah the real god? Or Muhammad? or so on...

EddieLedBetter wrote:

Why would one wish to make this story up and have it passed down through the ages?

Because it's a scary thought that when we die, that is it. A very good motive, if you ask me. Religion is also about human culture, and in human culture there is peer pressure. If a person grew up going to (insert house of worship here), then they would probably end up bringing their children there. Hence why you see certain religions more in certain areas. ...or the god they worship only exists in that region.

EddieLedBetter wrote:

What would be the purpose of that if there wasnt some truth?

see above...
...and what do you define as "some truth". Are you talking verifiable truth, with physical evidence, or some other truth which cannot be proved? If the latter, then would a neutral third-party call it the "truth"?[/quote]

One could argue that Buddah, Joeseph Smith, or Muhammad never performed miracles or claimed to step down from their thrown as king of all and be tortured and put to death for all mankind. Is it strange that the 2 other major religions mention Jesus and the Flood of Noah?

True that people can be influenced into believing by their upbringing but once reaching an age of self awareness everyone is given the choice what to believe. That was the case with me. I was raised learing these teachings then when I became old enough to test theories for myself I ventured away Ultimately returning to what I now know to be true. A lot of people actually experience God, Christ and the Bible by emmersing themselves in it. I dont think the people who wrote or passed down the stories of the Bible would have given up their lives if not for something they truely believed.

Science is one finger on the hand of understanding. I believe it is a good thing but its only as true as what technology currently allows to be proven. They once knew they world was flat.

The truth I'm speaking of is that a man came to earth performed miracles in the name of His Father then was ultimately crucified bridge the path between mankind and God.

melodious

I believe that all cultures celebrate God and Jesus in their own language. I wonder what is the difference between Jesus as a Profet and others such as Ghandi, Rumi, or Mother Teresa.

EddieLedBetter

BinFrog wrote:

EddieLedBetter wrote:

Santa Claus and the tooth fairy never were publicly convicted, tortured or put to death. Not a good enough argument. Why would one wish to make this story up and have it passed down through the ages? What would be the purpose of that if there wasnt some truth?

Civilization was in a vastly different place thousands of years ago. The religious texts were literally compilations of hand me down stories, as well as a loose moral code which, as we know, was very much left open to interpretation. The religious leaders at the time were not the same as we think of them now...they were very much creators of what we now view as classic religions. There was no template. But at that time people were very curious, scared, illiterate, and very easily controlled. If you put your faith in a religious figure, who in turn tells you that there is an afterlife, and that being humble in this life will lead to a great afterlife, and that the Old Testament/et al are the word of god...do you have any reason to question him? No. You don't realize that you CAN question the words from the religious leaders. And if you don't question them, you obey.

And the funny thing is that, oddly enough, those religious leaders were usually the wealthy elite. So keeping people humble meant they could live a lavish lifestyle. Imagine that: those telling people to be humble were in fact not humble themselves. They knew how to exploit the uneducated. And you wonder why money and power corrupt.

Let's put it this way: If someone were alive today claiming to be the son of god, and said he had direct access to the big man himself and knew how we should live...would we believe him? No. We would call him the leader of a cult, or cast him of as a David Copperfield clone if he tried to do any of his magic tricks so to speak.

The key to the illusion of religion is realizing what the world was like when they came to be. As to why the masses continue to follow them, well, sometimes it's easier not to question things I suppose. That's my view at least.

You mean like they did to Jesus?

Religion is of man, not God. I fully agree with you on the corruption of the church.

The beauty of the Bible is it was God breathed through men over thousands of years and yet it still upholds so much power today to those who emmerse themselves in it. I've honestly come to a place where I physically feel God in my life. The men who walked with Jesus and experienced the miracles and the resurrection where just the beginning.

skippybrew

Shawshank wrote:

You won't find the body of Jesus, no matter what the Discovery Channel may say.

You won't find most things that were around 2000 years ago...

Shawshank wrote:

The crucifixion of Jesus is not just a Biblical tale, it is also a well documented event within Roman history.

I don't think skeptics argue that Jesus wasn't around or wasn't crucified. It's pretty accepted that Jesus of Nazareth was a real guy, it's the whole "Son of God" thing that trips me up.

Shawshank wrote:

In other words, it would not make sense for early followers to make up the story of the crucifixion because from their perspective it would have been somewhat embarrassing.

It would make perfect sense (whether they made it up or just it happen). A martyr is much more powerful than a living person.

Shawshank wrote:

So why on earth would people be willing to sacrifice themselves, their families, and be tortured in every way conceivable for something that they knew was a lie?

I don't think they "knew it was a lie." I'm sure they believed it fully, just like any other suicide cult that is around today.

I don't think we can speak in terms of what "did" or "didn't" happen - there are things from last month that we can't prove or disprove, and this all went down thousands of years ago. As I said, there's not much dispute that Jesus was real, and that he had some real, dedicated followers. I even think he had some pretty groovy ideas. In the end, it's all about faith and belief, and everyone is certainly entitled to their own.

BinFrog

EddieLedBetter wrote:

You mean like they did to Jesus?

Religion is of man, not God. I fully agree with you on the corruption of the church.

The beauty of the Bible is it was God breathed through men over thousands of years and yet it still upholds so much power today to those who emmerse themselves in it. I've honestly come to a place where I physically feel God in my life. The men who walked with Jesus and experienced the miracles and the resurrection where just the beginning.

I can't have a debate with you. You've come to 'knowledge' based on your faith, and nothing either of us says will have an affect on the other person. Religion, the story of Jesus, and the concept of the religious texts somehow being the word of God passed through men to me seems (laughably) silly. To each their own. I hope your faith gives you piece of mind.

skippybrew

melodious wrote:

I believe that all cultures celebrate God and Jesus in their own language. I wonder what is the difference between Jesus as a Profet and others such as Ghandi, Rumi, or Mother Teresa.

Amen.

Gern Blansten

Shawshank wrote:

The crucifixion of Jesus is not just a Biblical tale, it is also a well documented event within Roman history.

where is it well documented?

EddieLedBetter

BinFrog wrote:

EddieLedBetter wrote:

You mean like they did to Jesus?

Religion is of man, not God. I fully agree with you on the corruption of the church.

The beauty of the Bible is it was God breathed through men over thousands of years and yet it still upholds so much power today to those who emmerse themselves in it. I've honestly come to a place where I physically feel God in my life. The men who walked with Jesus and experienced the miracles and the resurrection where just the beginning.

I can't have a debate with you. You've come to 'knowledge' based on your faith, and nothing either of us says will have an affect on the other person. Religion, the story of Jesus, and the concept of the religious texts somehow being the word of God passed through men to me seems (laughably) silly. To each their own. I hope your faith gives you piece of mind.

What is science based on or personal experience then if not faith?