"Worst justification of the year -- Unemployment will hit 8 percent without the stimulus bill-Pres. obama"
$787 billion later, unemployment in October reached 10.2 percent and is currently at 10 percent. Enough said.
Godfather.
no, there is more to say...I wonder what unemployment would be at without the stimulus...
Godfather
you laugh like you know the answer to a question that is unknowable. i'll make a guess...it would be at 13% and i say that based on absolutely no information, i just pulled it out of my ass... :roll:
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
That's kind of an overreaching question. I'll try to answer as completely as I can.
But let's start with some background. First, myself. I'm a lifelong Democrat, extremely liberal, bordering on socialist. I wanted to support Dennis Kucinich, but I knew he was unelectable, so I supported John Edwards first before his flame out, then when Obama won the primary, then I voted for him in the Presidential election. He was never my first choice - I found him too much of a centrist for my taste - but he was eminently better than the GOP's Grampy and Vampy team.
Now, let's have some perspective here. After 8 years of an absolutely incompetent, lawless, and arrogant Republican administration, led by a chickenhawk psychopath named Cheney and his idiot stooge Dubya, we could've had Mickey Mouse run and he would had a better platform and approval rating than the entire Republican party. An administration that among other things, gave a $1.3 billion tax break to the richest Americans at the start of its term. It also went about installing partisan ideologues in important positions in government regardless of knowledge (Michael Powell), experience (Harriet Miers), character (Alberto Gonzales) or even competency (Hello, FEMA, Brownie and Katrina) ; it went on a quest to privatize every aspect of government, including a disastrous attempt to privatize Social Security by opening it to the stock market (imagine what a wholesale disaster that would have been). It ignored urgings from the previous Administration to watch out for a terrorist group called al-Qaeda and its charismatic leader Osama bin Laden. After 9/11, it invaded Afghanistan even though the Taliban offered to turn over bin Laden to us and there was already a series of negotiations from the Clinton administration to extradite him, and when bin Laden was cornered in Tora Bora, he was shockingly and inexplicably allowed to escape. To say nothing of purposely lying the nation into a war with a country (Iraq) that had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack, costing us the lives of over 4000 American young men and women, and countless Iraqi civilians.
An entire branch of government (Department of the Interior) that was found out to have thrown sex and drug parties involving lobbyists of the companies they were supposed to be monitoring. The Department of Justice hiring political hacks from the right wing Federalist society while passing over very qualified candidates who happened to be Democrats. A Vice President who addressed a ranking Senator (Patrick Leahy) with the expletive, "F*** you".
I could go on, but I'm sure you all get the point by now.
After that disastrous administration, Obama gets elected - inheriting an economy in shambles, a government demoralized by incompetence and corruption, bogged down in two wars with no end in sight, and a country shattered by fear-mongering right wing partisan attacks. Then he had to suffer through unwarranted, xenophobic and racist attacks from the corporate media (ClusterFOX news) and astroturf corporate movements (aka Teabaggers). Not to mention a Senate Republican bloc that's insisted on blocking and obstructing every attempt at dialogue and forcing a filibuster on the most trivial matters.
No wonder anything got done at all.
And yes, he's done a lot of good things. Promising to close Guantanamo was a great start. A lot of great legislation got passed quickly - the Lily Leadbetter Act, the stimulus program, landmark hate crimes legislation protecting GLBTs, and more. But he's also proven shockingly malleable to corporate influences - hiring Larry Summers and Tim Geithner, veterans of the Clinton administration and part of the unholy, incestuous cabal of corporate Wall Street insiders finding their way into government - has proven questionable at least. His failure to weigh in strongly on health care reform allowed bought and paid for politicians like Joe Lieberman, Max Baucus and Ben Nelson to water down what was potentially game changing legislation into a multi bilion dollar giveaway to the health insurance companies and a rollback of women's reproductive rights not seen in over a generation. Continuing the war in Afghanistan when it's become clear that it's never going to be resolved militarily is another blot on his record.
So whither Barack Obama? There's a reason Gallup has put him at under 50% approval rating, the lowest of a first year President - sure he's had to deal with a really bad hand dealt him, and sure we have a system of legalized bribery that works against us and in favor of corporations - but he also failed to seize the moment and use his considerable charisma and oratory skills to push through real reform through the system. He's therefore lost favor with not only the right wing buffoons who deny even his citizenship, but also a huge chunk of his own left wing base, who were aghast when health care reform became increasingly unpalatable.
My verdict - wait and see. He still has time to get things right... otherwise his promises of "Change We Can Believe In" will become hollow, and the energized electorate that swept Democrats to power in 2006 and 2008 will falter, and he'll exit as a one term President with a lot of potential but failed to live up to it.
Now if you all excuse me, I have a party to attend. Cheers and have a safe and prosperous New Year all!
"It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
There's a reason Gallup has put him at under 50% approval rating, the lowest of a first year President
And just what is that reason?
Maybe it's because he's not the man for the job,and the American people are becoming more aware of this every passing day.
To say nothing of purposely lying the nation into a war with a country (Iraq) that had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack,
That's bullshit... There's not one shred of evidence that Bush DELIBERATELY LIED to the american people,and that's noy why we went to Iraq in the first place.
and as far as your statment about clinton trying to hand over OBL. I thoght it went more like this.
In April 1996, Osama bin Laden was an official guest of the radical Islamic government of Sudan – a government that had been implicated in the attacks on the World Trade Center in 1993. By 1996, with the international community treating Sudan as a pariah, the Sudanese government attempted to patch its relations with the United States. At a secret meeting in a Rosslyn, Va., hotel, the Sudanese minister of state for defense, Maj. Gen. Elfatih Erwa, met with CIA operatives, where, among other things, they discussed Osama bin Laden.
It is here that things get murky. Erwa claims that he offered to hand bin Laden over to the United States. Key American players – President Bill Clinton, then-National Security Adviser Sandy Berger and Director of Counterterrorism Richard Clarke among them – have testified there were no "credible offers" to hand over bin Laden. The 9/11 Commission found "no credible evidence" that Erwa had ever made such an offer. On the other hand, Lawrence Wright, in his Pulitzer Prize-winning "The Looming Tower," flatly states that Sudan did make such an offer. Wright bases his judgment on an interview with Erwa and notes that those who most prominently deny Erwa's claims were not in fact present for the meeting.
Wright and the 9/11 Commission do agree that the Clinton administration encouraged Sudan to deport bin Laden back to Saudi Arabia and spent 10 weeks trying to convince the Saudi government to accept him. One Clinton security official told The Washington Post that they had "a fantasy" that the Saudi government would quietly execute bin Laden. When the Saudis refused bin Laden’s return, Clinton officials convinced the Sudanese simply to expel him, hoping that the move would at least disrupt bin Laden’s activities.
Much of the controversy stems from claims that President Clinton made in a February 2002 speech and then retracted in his 2004 testimony to the 9/11 Commission. In the 2002 speech Clinton seems to admit that the Sudanese government offered to turn over bin Laden:
"Worst justification of the year -- Unemployment will hit 8 percent without the stimulus bill-Pres. obama"
$787 billion later, unemployment in October reached 10.2 percent and is currently at 10 percent. Enough said.
Godfather.
no, there is more to say...I wonder what unemployment would be at without the stimulus...
Probably at about 7 or 8% . There was one small town that got a million dollars from the stim and they didn't know what to do with it so they decided to widen their busy street in town. To do so they had to remove the parking spaces on both sides of the street giving all the small restaraunts and bars no parking for their customers forcing them to lose business and lay people off. So in this case the stimulus money actually cost jobs
Its been almost 1 year.....still waiting for change...he's a puppet just like Bush was...thanks for all of you that voted for him...my kids thank you to and my grandkids thank you to...reap what you sow :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
Its been almost 1 year.....still waiting for change...he's a puppet just like Bush was...thanks for all of you that voted for him...my kids thank you to and my grandkids thank you to...reap what you sow :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
tell them i said all of them are welcome. obama was the best choice at the time...
do you really honestly think things would be any better on mccain's watch, and if so how?
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
and its becoming very clear as to what we needs to be done.
when 1 makes $20 million, 10 thousand people lose.
I don't believe mccain would have been worse, I don't believe he would be spending as much money and I don't believe he would be trying to create a socialistic health care plan that we clearly can not afford.
and its becoming very clear as to what we needs to be done.
when 1 makes $20 million, 10 thousand people lose.
I don't believe mccain would have been worse, I don't believe he would be spending as much money and I don't believe he would be trying to create a socialistic health care plan that we clearly can not afford.
i'll take commie pinko socialist health care over nothing any day.
and its becoming very clear as to what we needs to be done.
when 1 makes $20 million, 10 thousand people lose.
I don't believe mccain would have been worse, I don't believe he would be spending as much money and I don't believe he would be trying to create a socialistic health care plan that we clearly can not afford.
i'll take commie pinko socialist health care over nothing any day.
remember to teach your kids sharing is an evil pinko commie socialist sin!
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
No, but i'll remember to teach her that here in America you can do anything. And that the harder you work and the more you learn the more you can recieve in this great country. And i'll teach her about the constitution. And i'll teach her that if she wants to be like you she can move to another country where the american dream doesn't exist, and the government can control your life.
And if you're so into sharing how do you feel about Ben Nelsons Nebraska not having to pay for Medi Care Extension while the rest of us do just so Nobama could get his vote.....yeahh!!!! let's share! Every state created equal is out the window under this administration.
No, but i'll remember to teach her that here in America you can do anything. And that the harder you work and the more you learn the more you can recieve in this great country. And i'll teach her about the constitution. And i'll teach her that if she wants to be like you she can move to another country where the american dream doesn't exist, and the government can control your life.
the part about working hard themore you receive is a dream, and quite possibly an outright lie....i know people that work 60 hours a week and they are no better off than other friends that don't have a job. there are more variables than just "the harder you work, the more successful you are". if i were you i woud not lie to her because that is only setting her up for disappointment later on in life....
by the way, stop telling people to find another country to live, it is the most juvenile thing you can say to someone.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
And if you're so into sharing how do you feel about Ben Nelsons Nebraska not having to pay for Medi Care Extension while the rest of us do just so Nobama could get his vote.....yeahh!!!! let's share! Every state created equal is out the window under this administration.
in what part of which of our founding documents does it say "all states are created equally"? i have my copy of the consitution right here and can't find that part...
you have to wheel and deal if you want to get anything passed, especially with a country this divided. that is the nature of politics. perhaps a review of your 9th grade civics class may refresh your memory?
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
And if you're so into sharing how do you feel about Ben Nelsons Nebraska not having to pay for Medi Care Extension while the rest of us do just so Nobama could get his vote.....yeahh!!!! let's share! Every state created equal is out the window under this administration.
in what part of which of our founding documents does it say "all states are created equally"? i have my copy of the consitution right here and can't find that part...
you have to wheel and deal if you want to get anything passed, especially with a country this divided. that is the nature of politics. perhaps a review of your 9th grade civics class may refresh your memory?
In what part of the Constitution does it say that the Neo Cons of DC Have the right to bailout Wall Street and govern healthcare.....please show me.....police cadets are being told that Thomas Jefferson is or would be a terrorist...."GET UP! STAND UP! FOR YOUR RIGHTS"
And if you're so into sharing how do you feel about Ben Nelsons Nebraska not having to pay for Medi Care Extension while the rest of us do just so Nobama could get his vote.....yeahh!!!! let's share! Every state created equal is out the window under this administration.
No, but i'll remember to teach her that here in America you can do anything. And that the harder you work and the more you learn the more you can recieve in this great country. And i'll teach her about the constitution. And i'll teach her that if she wants to be like you she can move to another country where the american dream doesn't exist, and the government can control your life.
so in Canada, Britain, Australia, New Zeland, Finland, Switzerland, Sweden, Belgium, Spain....those governments control their people's lives?
i'm sure there's flaws in their health care systems but why does that mean we can't improve them? i do not think it is giving the government control of my life and certainly think it's better than being at the mercy of the multi million/billion $ corporations and just be thankful for what little, while ever shrinking, coverage they give me that year. i think people's health is more important than making a larger profit this year than last.
do you teach her if her friend is unlucky enough to need some operation or something and her parents can't afford the health insurance at their work or they just don't offer it or were laid off or it gives little coverage or a flat out denial that if only her parents had worked a little harder she might be able to live, i'd love to hear that rationalization.
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
And if you're so into sharing how do you feel about Ben Nelsons Nebraska not having to pay for Medi Care Extension while the rest of us do just so Nobama could get his vote.....yeahh!!!! let's share! Every state created equal is out the window under this administration.
in what part of which of our founding documents does it say "all states are created equally"? i have my copy of the consitution right here and can't find that part...
you have to wheel and deal if you want to get anything passed, especially with a country this divided. that is the nature of politics. perhaps a review of your 9th grade civics class may refresh your memory?
In what part of the Constitution does it say that the Neo Cons of DC Have the right to bailout Wall Street and govern healthcare.....please show me.....police cadets are being told that Thomas Jefferson is or would be a terrorist...."GET UP! STAND UP! FOR YOUR RIGHTS"
erm...the neocons are not in power right now...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
No, but i'll remember to teach her that here in America you can do anything. And that the harder you work and the more you learn the more you can recieve in this great country. And i'll teach her about the constitution. And i'll teach her that if she wants to be like you she can move to another country where the american dream doesn't exist, and the government can control your life.
the part about working hard themore you receive is a dream, and quite possibly an outright lie....i know people that work 60 hours a week and they are no better off than other friends that don't have a job. there are more variables than just "the harder you work, the more successful you are". if i were you i woud not lie to her because that is only setting her up for disappointment later on in life....
by the way, stop telling people to find another country to live, it is the most juvenile thing you can say to someone.
All depends on the quality of the job I guess.He works 60 hours a week so therefore he brings home more money. I've been there. Many hours and the job sucks, wishing I had gone to college so I could have had a better job, so I did, and then I got a better job.......see how that works. Sorry for being juvenile.
And if you're so into sharing how do you feel about Ben Nelsons Nebraska not having to pay for Medi Care Extension while the rest of us do just so Nobama could get his vote.....yeahh!!!! let's share! Every state created equal is out the window under this administration.
No, but i'll remember to teach her that here in America you can do anything. And that the harder you work and the more you learn the more you can recieve in this great country. And i'll teach her about the constitution. And i'll teach her that if she wants to be like you she can move to another country where the american dream doesn't exist, and the government can control your life.
so in Canada, Britain, Australia, New Zeland, Finland, Switzerland, Sweden, Belgium, Spain....those governments control their people's lives?
i'm sure there's flaws in their health care systems but why does that mean we can't improve them? i do not think it is giving the government control of my life and certainly think it's better than being at the mercy of the multi million/billion $ corporations and just be thankful for what little, while ever shrinking, coverage they give me that year. i think people's health is more important than making a larger profit this year than last.
do you teach her if her friend is unlucky enough to need some operation or something and her parents can't afford the health insurance at their work or they just don't offer it or were laid off or it gives little coverage or a flat out denial that if only her parents had worked a little harder she might be able to live, i'd love to hear that rationalization.
I think you watched SICKO one too many times. Last I heard 85 % of americans have H.C. and 80% of those 85 are happy with it
And if there are people in this country that need care i'm all for it, i'm a republican, i'm not satan But Obamas real plan is to simply destroy all private health insurance companies and create a single payer system...what gives him the fucking right? Just an example, I have a friend with stage 4 lymphomia and he has never had health insurance and I can assure you he is NOT getting dropped off on the side of the street . He is getting cared for very well. These health ins.. stories are scare tactics for the government take over.
I think you watched SICKO one too many times. Last I heard 85 % of americans have H.C. and 80% of those 85 are happy with it
And if there are people in this country that need care i'm all for it, i'm a republican, i'm not satan But Obamas real plan is to simply destroy all private health insurance companies and create a single payer system...what gives him the fucking right? Just an example, I have a friend with stage 4 lymphomia and he has never had health insurance and I can assure you he is NOT getting dropped off on the side of the street . He is getting cared for very well. These health ins.. stories are scare tactics for the government take over.
i'm not sure how to even reply to this. where are you getting your facts/figures here?? if we have 47 million uninsured ( i have heard up to 49 million in latest estimates) we must have a huge population. i doubt that 47 million is only 15% of our population. from the looks of your opinion of what obama allegedly wants to do here, you are indoctrinated. if sigle payer was obama's plan he would have crammed it down your throat, but it has been off the table for 4 months. so sleep easy at night because single payer will not happen unless the dems pick up 15 seats in the senate but i doubt they will ever get a supermajority like that. if he wanted to destroy private health insurance companies he would be against this senate bill, which is basically a hand out to those ins companies. how can you rationalize that?? by the way, there was never going to be a government takeover of health care so stop being so scared.
ignorance must be a terrible cross to bear.
as far as your friend being uninsured and getting good care, he must have a lot of money or be getting that treatment pro bono or very close to it....
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
And if you're so into sharing how do you feel about Ben Nelsons Nebraska not having to pay for Medi Care Extension while the rest of us do just so Nobama could get his vote.....yeahh!!!! let's share! Every state created equal is out the window under this administration.
No, but i'll remember to teach her that here in America you can do anything. And that the harder you work and the more you learn the more you can recieve in this great country. And i'll teach her about the constitution. And i'll teach her that if she wants to be like you she can move to another country where the american dream doesn't exist, and the government can control your life.
so in Canada, Britain, Australia, New Zeland, Finland, Switzerland, Sweden, Belgium, Spain....those governments control their people's lives?
i'm sure there's flaws in their health care systems but why does that mean we can't improve them? i do not think it is giving the government control of my life and certainly think it's better than being at the mercy of the multi million/billion $ corporations and just be thankful for what little, while ever shrinking, coverage they give me that year. i think people's health is more important than making a larger profit this year than last.
do you teach her if her friend is unlucky enough to need some operation or something and her parents can't afford the health insurance at their work or they just don't offer it or were laid off or it gives little coverage or a flat out denial that if only her parents had worked a little harder she might be able to live, i'd love to hear that rationalization.
I think you watched SICKO one too many times. Last I heard 85 % of americans have H.C. and 80% of those 85 are happy with it
And if there are people in this country that need care i'm all for it, i'm a republican, i'm not satan But Obamas real plan is to simply destroy all private health insurance companies and create a single payer system...what gives him the fucking right? Just an example, I have a friend with stage 4 lymphomia and he has never had health insurance and I can assure you he is NOT getting dropped off on the side of the street . He is getting cared for very well. These health ins.. stories are scare tactics for the government take over.
you're right, those poor misunderstood insurance companies....stories of them denying coverage is scare tactics while death panels and government take overs of our lives is reality :roll:
how is that Obama's plan? he's against a single payer system, he even tried to talk politicians out of supporting the public option. what has Obama even done towards health care reform other than meet with health insurance and pharmaceutical execs and lobbyists? it's been pretty much congress and the senate coming up with the plans.
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
And just what is that reason?
Maybe it's because he's not the man for the job,and the American people are becoming more aware of this every passing day.
I already made that reason clear further down that quip you cited - he's lost support from the left because of his vacillating on health care reform, plus his perceived coziness with Wall Street types didn't help him either.
The really important issue though, I think, is that our political process has been hijacked by transnational corporations who can easily pump billions of dollars into a candidate or an issue that will protect their interests, and until that process is cured, we will always be in an uphill battle to restore real democracy.
That's bullshit... There's not one shred of evidence that Bush DELIBERATELY LIED to the american people,and that's noy why we went to Iraq in the first place.
Besides, exactly WHY did we go into Iraq in the first place? When this was all going down, the Bush administration kept changing its story - first it was because Saddam Hussein supposedly had ties to Al-Qaeda and helped them carry out the 9/11 attacks (proven false), then they said it was because Saddam Hussein had WMD (also proven false), and then finally because we needed to "liberate the Iraqi people" hence the aptly misnamed "Operation Iraqi Freedom". When intelligence didn't suit their needs, they created their own intelligence division to create fudged data. They relied on extremely untrustworthy sources, with some of their data obtained through torture. Even the British noticed that the Bush administration was more interested in going to war with Iraq regardless of whether it was justified or not.
Did Bush "deliberately lie"? No idea. But as the Decider, either he was completely oblivious to the truth or he deliberately lied - and neither situation shines a good light on him. Then again, one could always claim that Dick "5 deferment chickenhawk" Cheney was really in charge then.
and as far as your statment about clinton trying to hand over OBL. I thoght it went more like this.
---Sudan incidents truncated----
I'm specifically referring to the Taliban offering to hold bin Laden until he could be captured or killed by the US in Afghanistan, but was inexplicably stonewalled by the Bush administration: In July 2001, the head of Pakistan's pro-bin Laden Jamiaat-i-Islami Party, Qazi Hussein Ahmed, also reportedly was received at the George Bush Center for Intelligence (aka, CIA headquarters) in Langley, Virginia.
According to the Washington Post, the Special Envoy of Mullah Omar, Rahmatullah Hashami, even came to Washington bearing a gift carpet for President Bush from the one-eyed Taliban leader. The Village Voice reported that Hashami, on behalf of the Taliban, offered the Bush administration to hold on to bin Laden long enough for the United States to capture or kill him but, inexplicably, the administration refused. Meanwhile, Spozhmai Maiwandi, the director of the Voice of America's Pashtun service, jokingly nicknamed "Kandahar Rose" by her colleagues, aired favorable reports on the Taliban, including a controversial interview with Mullah Omar.
Both the Clinton and Bush 43 administrations had been negotiating with the Taliban over natural gas pipelines, but I won't go into those here - suffice it to say the Taliban offered Bush an opportunity to hold bin Laden for capture or death, and Bush refused.
"It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
I think you watched SICKO one too many times. Last I heard 85 % of americans have H.C. and 80% of those 85 are happy with it
And if there are people in this country that need care i'm all for it, i'm a republican, i'm not satan But Obamas real plan is to simply destroy all private health insurance companies and create a single payer system...what gives him the fucking right? Just an example, I have a friend with stage 4 lymphomia and he has never had health insurance and I can assure you he is NOT getting dropped off on the side of the street . He is getting cared for very well. These health ins.. stories are scare tactics for the government take over.
How do you know that? From the beginning of the process, single payer was NEVER on the table. Period. Numerous attempts to add it, from Dennis Kucinich in the House to Bernie Sanders in the Senate, have all been tabled, shot down, or withdrawn. Max Baucus' Senate Finance Committee never even invited single payer advocates to their meetings. More importantly, when President Obama convened a town hall style meeting on health care, numerous industry lobbyists were there, but no single payer advocate was present. Not to mention a backroom deal made by the White House with big pharma to remove unfavorable amendments.
The President sat back and did nothing while all this was going on.
Senator Feingold may have been right when he said in frustration that the Senate bill is exactly what the President wanted : no public option, no negotiations with drug companies on pricing, no coverage for abortion.
"It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
That's bullshit... There's not one shred of evidence that Bush DELIBERATELY LIED to the american people,and that's noy why we went to Iraq in the first place.
Besides, exactly WHY did we go into Iraq in the first place? When this was all going down, the Bush administration kept changing its story - first it was because Saddam Hussein supposedly had ties to Al-Qaeda and helped them carry out the 9/11 attacks (proven false), then they said it was because Saddam Hussein had WMD (also proven false), and then finally because we needed to "liberate the Iraqi people" hence the aptly misnamed "Operation Iraqi Freedom". When intelligence didn't suit their needs, they created their own intelligence division to create fudged data. They relied on extremely untrustworthy sources, with some of their data obtained through torture. Even the British noticed that the Bush administration was more interested in going to war with Iraq regardless of whether it was justified or not.
Did Bush "deliberately lie"? No idea. But as the Decider, either he was completely oblivious to the truth or he deliberately lied - and neither situation shines a good light on him. Then again, one could always claim that Dick "5 deferment chickenhawk" Cheney was really in charge then.
then there was also the time Bush said
"We just heard the Prime Minister talk about the new report. I would remind you that when the inspectors first went into Iraq and were denied -- finally denied access, a report came out of the Atomic -- the IAEA that they were six months away from developing a weapon. I don't know what more evidence we need."
which isn't what the report said at all, in fact the IAEA's new report said Iraq didn't even have an operational program...Bush then claimed he misspoke and meant an IAEA report from '98....only problem it was taking even the '98 report out of context as that stated Iraq was:
"six to 24 months away from developing a weapon before the Gulf War in 1991, but its efforts to produce weapons-grade uranium were largely crippled by the war and subsequent inspection regime."
how is that not a lie??
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
"Worst justification of the year -- Unemployment will hit 8 percent without the stimulus bill-Pres. obama"
$787 billion later, unemployment in October reached 10.2 percent and is currently at 10 percent. Enough said.
Godfather.
no, there is more to say...I wonder what unemployment would be at without the stimulus...
Probably at about 7 or 8% . There was one small town that got a million dollars from the stim and they didn't know what to do with it so they decided to widen their busy street in town. To do so they had to remove the parking spaces on both sides of the street giving all the small restaraunts and bars no parking for their customers forcing them to lose business and lay people off. So in this case the stimulus money actually cost jobs
probably, huh...
and do you have a link or anything to back up your story....?
No, but i'll remember to teach her that here in America you can do anything. And that the harder you work and the more you learn the more you can recieve in this great country. And i'll teach her about the constitution. And i'll teach her that if she wants to be like you she can move to another country where the american dream doesn't exist, and the government can control your life.
it's funny to me that the "pull yourself up by your bootstrap" crowd is whining so much about Obama...
shouldn't y'all be pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and not worrying about others...
Did Bush "deliberately lie"? No idea. But as the Decider, either he was completely oblivious to the truth or he deliberately lied - and neither situation shines a good light on him. Then again, one could always claim that Dick "5 deferment chickenhawk" Cheney was really in charge then.
So now your saying you have no idea ? But your previous post you said "He delibertly lied to the nation to get us into a war". :?
The numerous lies of the Bush administration re: Iraq have been thoroughly documented. Here's one. And a more comprehensive one. And a still more comprehensive one.
Look man with all due respect if your going to post links you need to find links that are not far left and that are'nt over 5 years old before I will even consider taking them seriously. All the left wing sites do is take everything out of context and you only hear one side of the argument or story.
I think you watched SICKO one too many times. Last I heard 85 % of americans have H.C. and 80% of those 85 are happy with it
And if there are people in this country that need care i'm all for it, i'm a republican, i'm not satan But Obamas real plan is to simply destroy all private health insurance companies and create a single payer system...what gives him the fucking right? Just an example, I have a friend with stage 4 lymphomia and he has never had health insurance and I can assure you he is NOT getting dropped off on the side of the street . He is getting cared for very well. These health ins.. stories are scare tactics for the government take over.
i'm not sure how to even reply to this. where are you getting your facts/figures here?? if we have 47 million uninsured ( i have heard up to 49 million in latest estimates) we must have a huge population. i doubt that 47 million is only 15% of our population. from the looks of your opinion of what obama allegedly wants to do here, you are indoctrinated. if sigle payer was obama's plan he would have crammed it down your throat, but it has been off the table for 4 months. so sleep easy at night because single payer will not happen unless the dems pick up 15 seats in the senate but i doubt they will ever get a supermajority like that. if he wanted to destroy private health insurance companies he would be against this senate bill, which is basically a hand out to those ins companies. how can you rationalize that?? by the way, there was never going to be a government takeover of health care so stop being so scared.
ignorance must be a terrible cross to bear.
as far as your friend being uninsured and getting good care, he must have a lot of money or be getting that treatment pro bono or very close to it....
well, do the math, as of jan 1st 2009 there were 305,000,000 and counting. so if I did the math right I would say it is correct. although I will admit when you say 45 million vs 15% it sounds much worse.
and as far as being scared about a government health care take over, maybe you should take the time to watch the video i posted just above this post.Peace
I think you watched SICKO one too many times. Last I heard 85 % of americans have H.C. and 80% of those 85 are happy with it
And if there are people in this country that need care i'm all for it, i'm a republican, i'm not satan But Obamas real plan is to simply destroy all private health insurance companies and create a single payer system...what gives him the fucking right? Just an example, I have a friend with stage 4 lymphomia and he has never had health insurance and I can assure you he is NOT getting dropped off on the side of the street . He is getting cared for very well. These health ins.. stories are scare tactics for the government take over.
i'm not sure how to even reply to this. where are you getting your facts/figures here?? if we have 47 million uninsured ( i have heard up to 49 million in latest estimates) we must have a huge population. i doubt that 47 million is only 15% of our population. from the looks of your opinion of what obama allegedly wants to do here, you are indoctrinated. if sigle payer was obama's plan he would have crammed it down your throat, but it has been off the table for 4 months. so sleep easy at night because single payer will not happen unless the dems pick up 15 seats in the senate but i doubt they will ever get a supermajority like that. if he wanted to destroy private health insurance companies he would be against this senate bill, which is basically a hand out to those ins companies. how can you rationalize that?? by the way, there was never going to be a government takeover of health care so stop being so scared.
ignorance must be a terrible cross to bear.
as far as your friend being uninsured and getting good care, he must have a lot of money or be getting that treatment pro bono or very close to it....
well, do the math, as of jan 1st 2009 there were 305,000,000 and counting. so if I did the math right I would say it is correct. although I will admit when you say 45 million vs 15% it sounds much worse.
and as far as being scared about a government health care take over, maybe you should take the time to watch the video i posted just above this post.Peace
15% is 15% too many uninsured people.
as i said, ignorance must be a terrible cross to bear...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Comments
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
That's kind of an overreaching question. I'll try to answer as completely as I can.
But let's start with some background. First, myself. I'm a lifelong Democrat, extremely liberal, bordering on socialist. I wanted to support Dennis Kucinich, but I knew he was unelectable, so I supported John Edwards first before his flame out, then when Obama won the primary, then I voted for him in the Presidential election. He was never my first choice - I found him too much of a centrist for my taste - but he was eminently better than the GOP's Grampy and Vampy team.
Now, let's have some perspective here. After 8 years of an absolutely incompetent, lawless, and arrogant Republican administration, led by a chickenhawk psychopath named Cheney and his idiot stooge Dubya, we could've had Mickey Mouse run and he would had a better platform and approval rating than the entire Republican party. An administration that among other things, gave a $1.3 billion tax break to the richest Americans at the start of its term. It also went about installing partisan ideologues in important positions in government regardless of knowledge (Michael Powell), experience (Harriet Miers), character (Alberto Gonzales) or even competency (Hello, FEMA, Brownie and Katrina) ; it went on a quest to privatize every aspect of government, including a disastrous attempt to privatize Social Security by opening it to the stock market (imagine what a wholesale disaster that would have been). It ignored urgings from the previous Administration to watch out for a terrorist group called al-Qaeda and its charismatic leader Osama bin Laden. After 9/11, it invaded Afghanistan even though the Taliban offered to turn over bin Laden to us and there was already a series of negotiations from the Clinton administration to extradite him, and when bin Laden was cornered in Tora Bora, he was shockingly and inexplicably allowed to escape. To say nothing of purposely lying the nation into a war with a country (Iraq) that had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack, costing us the lives of over 4000 American young men and women, and countless Iraqi civilians.
An entire branch of government (Department of the Interior) that was found out to have thrown sex and drug parties involving lobbyists of the companies they were supposed to be monitoring. The Department of Justice hiring political hacks from the right wing Federalist society while passing over very qualified candidates who happened to be Democrats. A Vice President who addressed a ranking Senator (Patrick Leahy) with the expletive, "F*** you".
I could go on, but I'm sure you all get the point by now.
After that disastrous administration, Obama gets elected - inheriting an economy in shambles, a government demoralized by incompetence and corruption, bogged down in two wars with no end in sight, and a country shattered by fear-mongering right wing partisan attacks. Then he had to suffer through unwarranted, xenophobic and racist attacks from the corporate media (ClusterFOX news) and astroturf corporate movements (aka Teabaggers). Not to mention a Senate Republican bloc that's insisted on blocking and obstructing every attempt at dialogue and forcing a filibuster on the most trivial matters.
No wonder anything got done at all.
And yes, he's done a lot of good things. Promising to close Guantanamo was a great start. A lot of great legislation got passed quickly - the Lily Leadbetter Act, the stimulus program, landmark hate crimes legislation protecting GLBTs, and more. But he's also proven shockingly malleable to corporate influences - hiring Larry Summers and Tim Geithner, veterans of the Clinton administration and part of the unholy, incestuous cabal of corporate Wall Street insiders finding their way into government - has proven questionable at least. His failure to weigh in strongly on health care reform allowed bought and paid for politicians like Joe Lieberman, Max Baucus and Ben Nelson to water down what was potentially game changing legislation into a multi bilion dollar giveaway to the health insurance companies and a rollback of women's reproductive rights not seen in over a generation. Continuing the war in Afghanistan when it's become clear that it's never going to be resolved militarily is another blot on his record.
So whither Barack Obama? There's a reason Gallup has put him at under 50% approval rating, the lowest of a first year President - sure he's had to deal with a really bad hand dealt him, and sure we have a system of legalized bribery that works against us and in favor of corporations - but he also failed to seize the moment and use his considerable charisma and oratory skills to push through real reform through the system. He's therefore lost favor with not only the right wing buffoons who deny even his citizenship, but also a huge chunk of his own left wing base, who were aghast when health care reform became increasingly unpalatable.
My verdict - wait and see. He still has time to get things right... otherwise his promises of "Change We Can Believe In" will become hollow, and the energized electorate that swept Democrats to power in 2006 and 2008 will falter, and he'll exit as a one term President with a lot of potential but failed to live up to it.
Now if you all excuse me, I have a party to attend. Cheers and have a safe and prosperous New Year all!
And just what is that reason?
Maybe it's because he's not the man for the job,and the American people are becoming more aware of this every passing day.
That's bullshit... There's not one shred of evidence that Bush DELIBERATELY LIED to the american people,and that's noy why we went to Iraq in the first place.
and as far as your statment about clinton trying to hand over OBL. I thoght it went more like this.
In April 1996, Osama bin Laden was an official guest of the radical Islamic government of Sudan – a government that had been implicated in the attacks on the World Trade Center in 1993. By 1996, with the international community treating Sudan as a pariah, the Sudanese government attempted to patch its relations with the United States. At a secret meeting in a Rosslyn, Va., hotel, the Sudanese minister of state for defense, Maj. Gen. Elfatih Erwa, met with CIA operatives, where, among other things, they discussed Osama bin Laden.
It is here that things get murky. Erwa claims that he offered to hand bin Laden over to the United States. Key American players – President Bill Clinton, then-National Security Adviser Sandy Berger and Director of Counterterrorism Richard Clarke among them – have testified there were no "credible offers" to hand over bin Laden. The 9/11 Commission found "no credible evidence" that Erwa had ever made such an offer. On the other hand, Lawrence Wright, in his Pulitzer Prize-winning "The Looming Tower," flatly states that Sudan did make such an offer. Wright bases his judgment on an interview with Erwa and notes that those who most prominently deny Erwa's claims were not in fact present for the meeting.
Wright and the 9/11 Commission do agree that the Clinton administration encouraged Sudan to deport bin Laden back to Saudi Arabia and spent 10 weeks trying to convince the Saudi government to accept him. One Clinton security official told The Washington Post that they had "a fantasy" that the Saudi government would quietly execute bin Laden. When the Saudis refused bin Laden’s return, Clinton officials convinced the Sudanese simply to expel him, hoping that the move would at least disrupt bin Laden’s activities.
Much of the controversy stems from claims that President Clinton made in a February 2002 speech and then retracted in his 2004 testimony to the 9/11 Commission. In the 2002 speech Clinton seems to admit that the Sudanese government offered to turn over bin Laden:
Probably at about 7 or 8%
do you really honestly think things would be any better on mccain's watch, and if so how?
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
he's the same as the old crowd.
mccain would have been worse.
obama was less worse. still bad.
and its becoming very clear as to what we needs to be done.
when 1 makes $20 million, 10 thousand people lose.
I don't believe mccain would have been worse, I don't believe he would be spending as much money and I don't believe he would be trying to create a socialistic health care plan that we clearly can not afford.
i'll take commie pinko socialist health care over nothing any day.
remember to teach your kids sharing is an evil pinko commie socialist sin!
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
by the way, stop telling people to find another country to live, it is the most juvenile thing you can say to someone.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
you have to wheel and deal if you want to get anything passed, especially with a country this divided. that is the nature of politics. perhaps a review of your 9th grade civics class may refresh your memory?
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
i already answered this in another thread.
so in Canada, Britain, Australia, New Zeland, Finland, Switzerland, Sweden, Belgium, Spain....those governments control their people's lives?
i'm sure there's flaws in their health care systems but why does that mean we can't improve them? i do not think it is giving the government control of my life and certainly think it's better than being at the mercy of the multi million/billion $ corporations and just be thankful for what little, while ever shrinking, coverage they give me that year. i think people's health is more important than making a larger profit this year than last.
do you teach her if her friend is unlucky enough to need some operation or something and her parents can't afford the health insurance at their work or they just don't offer it or were laid off or it gives little coverage or a flat out denial that if only her parents had worked a little harder she might be able to live, i'd love to hear that rationalization.
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
All depends on the quality of the job I guess.He works 60 hours a week so therefore he brings home more money. I've been there. Many hours and the job sucks, wishing I had gone to college so I could have had a better job, so I did, and then I got a better job.......see how that works. Sorry for being juvenile.
I think you watched SICKO one too many times. Last I heard 85 % of americans have H.C. and 80% of those 85 are happy with it
And if there are people in this country that need care i'm all for it, i'm a republican, i'm not satan
i'm not sure how to even reply to this. where are you getting your facts/figures here?? if we have 47 million uninsured ( i have heard up to 49 million in latest estimates) we must have a huge population. i doubt that 47 million is only 15% of our population. from the looks of your opinion of what obama allegedly wants to do here, you are indoctrinated. if sigle payer was obama's plan he would have crammed it down your throat, but it has been off the table for 4 months. so sleep easy at night because single payer will not happen unless the dems pick up 15 seats in the senate but i doubt they will ever get a supermajority like that. if he wanted to destroy private health insurance companies he would be against this senate bill, which is basically a hand out to those ins companies. how can you rationalize that?? by the way, there was never going to be a government takeover of health care so stop being so scared.
ignorance must be a terrible cross to bear.
as far as your friend being uninsured and getting good care, he must have a lot of money or be getting that treatment pro bono or very close to it....
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
you're right, those poor misunderstood insurance companies....stories of them denying coverage is scare tactics while death panels and government take overs of our lives is reality :roll:
how is that Obama's plan? he's against a single payer system, he even tried to talk politicians out of supporting the public option. what has Obama even done towards health care reform other than meet with health insurance and pharmaceutical execs and lobbyists? it's been pretty much congress and the senate coming up with the plans.
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
I already made that reason clear further down that quip you cited - he's lost support from the left because of his vacillating on health care reform, plus his perceived coziness with Wall Street types didn't help him either.
The really important issue though, I think, is that our political process has been hijacked by transnational corporations who can easily pump billions of dollars into a candidate or an issue that will protect their interests, and until that process is cured, we will always be in an uphill battle to restore real democracy.
Are you being obtuse? The numerous lies of the Bush administration re: Iraq have been thoroughly documented. Here's one. And a more comprehensive one. And a still more comprehensive one.
Besides, exactly WHY did we go into Iraq in the first place? When this was all going down, the Bush administration kept changing its story - first it was because Saddam Hussein supposedly had ties to Al-Qaeda and helped them carry out the 9/11 attacks (proven false), then they said it was because Saddam Hussein had WMD (also proven false), and then finally because we needed to "liberate the Iraqi people" hence the aptly misnamed "Operation Iraqi Freedom". When intelligence didn't suit their needs, they created their own intelligence division to create fudged data. They relied on extremely untrustworthy sources, with some of their data obtained through torture. Even the British noticed that the Bush administration was more interested in going to war with Iraq regardless of whether it was justified or not.
Did Bush "deliberately lie"? No idea. But as the Decider, either he was completely oblivious to the truth or he deliberately lied - and neither situation shines a good light on him. Then again, one could always claim that Dick "5 deferment chickenhawk" Cheney was really in charge then.
I'm specifically referring to the Taliban offering to hold bin Laden until he could be captured or killed by the US in Afghanistan, but was inexplicably stonewalled by the Bush administration:
In July 2001, the head of Pakistan's pro-bin Laden Jamiaat-i-Islami Party, Qazi Hussein Ahmed, also reportedly was received at the George Bush Center for Intelligence (aka, CIA headquarters) in Langley, Virginia.
According to the Washington Post, the Special Envoy of Mullah Omar, Rahmatullah Hashami, even came to Washington bearing a gift carpet for President Bush from the one-eyed Taliban leader. The Village Voice reported that Hashami, on behalf of the Taliban, offered the Bush administration to hold on to bin Laden long enough for the United States to capture or kill him but, inexplicably, the administration refused. Meanwhile, Spozhmai Maiwandi, the director of the Voice of America's Pashtun service, jokingly nicknamed "Kandahar Rose" by her colleagues, aired favorable reports on the Taliban, including a controversial interview with Mullah Omar.
Both the Clinton and Bush 43 administrations had been negotiating with the Taliban over natural gas pipelines, but I won't go into those here - suffice it to say the Taliban offered Bush an opportunity to hold bin Laden for capture or death, and Bush refused.
How do you know that? From the beginning of the process, single payer was NEVER on the table. Period. Numerous attempts to add it, from Dennis Kucinich in the House to Bernie Sanders in the Senate, have all been tabled, shot down, or withdrawn. Max Baucus' Senate Finance Committee never even invited single payer advocates to their meetings. More importantly, when President Obama convened a town hall style meeting on health care, numerous industry lobbyists were there, but no single payer advocate was present. Not to mention a backroom deal made by the White House with big pharma to remove unfavorable amendments.
The President sat back and did nothing while all this was going on.
Senator Feingold may have been right when he said in frustration that the Senate bill is exactly what the President wanted : no public option, no negotiations with drug companies on pricing, no coverage for abortion.
then there was also the time Bush said
which isn't what the report said at all, in fact the IAEA's new report said Iraq didn't even have an operational program...Bush then claimed he misspoke and meant an IAEA report from '98....only problem it was taking even the '98 report out of context as that stated Iraq was:
how is that not a lie??
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
probably, huh...
and do you have a link or anything to back up your story....?
it's funny to me that the "pull yourself up by your bootstrap" crowd is whining so much about Obama...
shouldn't y'all be pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and not worrying about others...
So now your saying you have no idea ? But your previous post you said "He delibertly lied to the nation to get us into a war". :?
Look man with all due respect if your going to post links you need to find links that are not far left and that are'nt over 5 years old before I will even consider taking them seriously. All the left wing sites do is take everything out of context and you only hear one side of the argument or story.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-bY92mcOdk
well, do the math, as of jan 1st 2009 there were 305,000,000 and counting. so if I did the math right I would say it is correct. although I will admit when you say 45 million vs 15% it sounds much worse.
and as far as being scared about a government health care take over, maybe you should take the time to watch the video i posted just above this post.Peace
15% is 15% too many uninsured people.
as i said, ignorance must be a terrible cross to bear...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."