The Official New York Yankees Thread

Monster Rain

I think he'd sound pretty silly making excuses by blaming the umpire when he struck out 9 and only walked 2. It doesn't sound like he was squezzed, it sounds like his pitches over the plate were either missed or hit well (hence the 12 hits to go along with the 9 K's).

I don't think there's a team in the league who wouldn't want him in their rotation and I don't think there's a fan in the league who wouldn't want him in their team's rotation--and I mean that regardless of how good the rotation is right now. He'd be the ace of just about every staff in baseball outside of the Phillies because Halladay has been just incredible even when he was in the AL East. If you don't think he's great, then I don't know what to tell you. Name another pitcher besides Halladay who's put up his numbers over the past 5 seasons:
95-40 Winn/Loss, 3.09 ERA, 1,199 IP, 1,084 K.

His average season over the last 5 seasons is:
19-8, 3.09 ERA, ~239 2/3 IP, 216 K

There's also the matter of his 2009 post-season, which was outstanding: 3-1, 1.98 ERA, 36.1 IP, 32K and a World Series ring.

Johnny Abruzzo wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

That's insane. Other than Halladay, what pitcher has been as consistently among the best pitchers in the league for each of the last 5 seasons besides CC? Not Lee, not Hamels, not even guys like Verlander, Felix Hernandez, or Weaver. Not that those guys aren't good, but they've all had at least one down season in that time.

As for Lee's postseason legend, I'm not saying his legend is overblown based on 1 game this year. He was also pretty awful in the World Series last year (0-2, 6.94 ERA). He also only gave up 2 walks and had 9 K's in the game this year in which you say he was "squeezed." That's his 3rd straight bad start in the postseason. I'm not saying he's a terrible postseason pitcher, but I expect more out of a guy who's annointed a postseason deity by the media than 0-3 with a 7.13 ERA. If you want to say that he pitched well in that game, fine (Lee said after the game that he didn't pitch well, by the way), but if we're making excuses for players then CC's 2008 postseason stats need to be tossed out the same way Lee's 2011 game is because Milwaukee used him on short rest and he threw 7 complete games for them down the stretch (he led the NL in Complete Games and Shutouts in his half-season in the league).

Even after 3 poor starts for Lee, he still has a 2.52 ERA in the playoffs. Of course he wouldn't make excuses after that game - he's not that type.

Sabathia is at 4.81 in the playoffs, which is just awful any way you slice it. It's in a sample of about half a regular season, which is pretty significant. Sorry - I, and pretty much everyone else who doesn't root for the Yankees, just don't think he's a great pitcher.

Monster Rain

Well, you were leading the conversation in a way that implied his last 2 months were bad. I'm just pointing out that September was actually very good and only August was bad.

He's getting paid as the best pitcher in baseball because he's one of the best pitchers in baseball. Honestly, after Halladay, what pitchers do you think have been better over the past 5 years?

polaris_x wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

He had an ERA of 4.68 in August and 3.08 in September. His September was hardly a disaster by any stretch of the imagination.

not saying it is ... it's just he's getting paid as the best pitcher in baseball ...

i'd love to have CC on the jays but if AA paid that much for him, i would say he wasn't worth it ... it's as simple as that ...

polaris_x

Monster Rain wrote:

Well, you were leading the conversation in a way that implied his last 2 months were bad. I'm just pointing out that September was actually very good and only August was bad.

He's getting paid as the best pitcher in baseball because he's one of the best pitchers in baseball. Honestly, after Halladay, what pitchers do you think have been better over the past 5 years?

i included october as well which was not so good ... i wanted to highlight over the course of the last 10 weeks - it wasn't so great ...

for sure CC has had a good run over the past 5 years - the question is can he keep it up over the life of the contract ... is he going to be the best pitcher in baseball in the next 2 years (forget about at the back end of the deal)? ... i don't think so ... i think he's on the decline and not worth the money ... but i will reiterate again - as far as the yankees go - it doesn't really matter what that price tag is ...

Monster Rain

He had a better 2011 than 2010 and 2009. How is that indicative of a guy on the decline? His final month was excellent, so it's not like he finished the season on a down note. His ERA was the lowest of any season he spent entirely in the AL and has decreased each of the last 2 seasons. Yes, his post-season this year wasn't good. Neither was Verlander's. Of course, both guys started a game that was rained out after 2 innings and came back on short rest, so that may have played a role in it (or maybe not, who knows?). CC has had good post-seasons before, though. As I said earlier, he was excellent in 2009 and got a World Series ring out of it. To look at his season and say he had a bad August and 1 bad start in the ALDS (and a bad relief appearance, but that's not his usual role) ignores April, May, June, July, and September.

polaris_x wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Well, you were leading the conversation in a way that implied his last 2 months were bad. I'm just pointing out that September was actually very good and only August was bad.

He's getting paid as the best pitcher in baseball because he's one of the best pitchers in baseball. Honestly, after Halladay, what pitchers do you think have been better over the past 5 years?

i included october as well which was not so good ... i wanted to highlight over the course of the last 10 weeks - it wasn't so great ...

for sure CC has had a good run over the past 5 years - the question is can he keep it up over the life of the contract ... is he going to be the best pitcher in baseball in the next 2 years (forget about at the back end of the deal)? ... i don't think so ... i think he's on the decline and not worth the money ... but i will reiterate again - as far as the yankees go - it doesn't really matter what that price tag is ...

polaris_x

Monster Rain wrote:

He had a better 2011 than 2010 and 2009. How is that indicative of a guy on the decline? His final month was excellent, so it's not like he finished the season on a down note. His ERA was the lowest of any season he spent entirely in the AL and has decreased each of the last 2 seasons. Yes, his post-season this year wasn't good. Neither was Verlander's. Of course, both guys started a game that was rained out after 2 innings and came back on short rest, so that may have played a role in it (or maybe not, who knows?). CC has had good post-seasons before, though. As I said earlier, he was excellent in 2009 and got a World Series ring out of it. To look at his season and say he had a bad August and 1 bad start in the ALDS (and a bad relief appearance, but that's not his usual role) ignores April, May, June, July, and September.

but that's just era ... his whip and opponents BA has been getting worse since 2008 ... also, his june and may's numbers weren't that great ...

but again - if you think that he will give you the numbers even close to what the best pitcher in baseball is giving ... then great ... i don't think so ...

Johnny Abruzzo

I'm sick of arguing about Sabathia. Yankees fans like a guy with almost a 5 postseason ERA, so whatever. You guys can enjoy him. As Cliffy says, I just don't like the guy. He seems like a good person, but he strikes me as a pitcher who racks up good stats against bad teams like the Orioles and everyone in the AL Central. I guess somebody said he was good against the Red Sox until this year, but he sure shit the bed for Cleveland in that playoff series when they were up 3-1.

CC certainly helped the Yanks get to the 2009 WS, but did little to actually help them win that series. Their keys were the Burnett performance in Game 2 and their hitting.

g under p

This day in history...

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hist ... he-yankees

Peace

Cliffy6745

g under p wrote:

This day in history...

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hist ... he-yankees

Peace

Unbelievable series. Highest of highs, lowest of lows. Walkoffs to Mo blowing it.

Cliffy6745

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/ ... ile-weeks/

Gio Gonzalez? Wonder if they could get it done without Montero.

Edit: Romine could be of some value to them if they trade Suzuki. A package around Romine and others. Would probably take Betances too.

igotid88

Cliffy6745 wrote:

g under p wrote:

This day in history...

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hist ... he-yankees

Peace

Unbelievable series. Highest of highs, lowest of lows. Walkoffs to Mo blowing it.

I blame defensive positioning more than Mo.

BinauralJam

Cliffy6745 wrote:

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/04/report-as-will-listen-to-offers-on-everyone-but-jemile-weeks/

Gio Gonzalez? Wonder if they could get it done without Montero.

Edit: Romine could be of some value to them if they trade Suzuki. A package around Romine and others. Would probably take Betances too.

I wouldn't trade Montero for anybody, i like what i saw last year.

Newch91

igotid88 wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

g under p wrote:

This day in history...

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hist ... he-yankees

Peace

Unbelievable series. Highest of highs, lowest of lows. Walkoffs to Mo blowing it.

I blame defensive positioning more than Mo.

Me too.

Cliffy6745

igotid88 wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

g under p wrote:

This day in history...

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hist ... he-yankees

Peace

Unbelievable series. Highest of highs, lowest of lows. Walkoffs to Mo blowing it.

I blame defensive positioning more than Mo.

I did for a long time, but pretty much every manager in the game would have the infield in there.

tcaporale

So Posada is either going to retire or play for another team next year, apparently.

Monster Rain

I'd bet on him retiring if I bet on that sort of thing. I read that he's going to wait until January or February to decide, but it sounds like he's not too sure about playing somewhere else with a new batch of teammates. His wife said that she wants him to think about it so he doesn't ahve any regreats about not accomplishing anything he set out to do and then said she thinks he may want to get to 300 HRs, but Posada said that while he'd like to hit 300 HRs, "It's not happening." I think he understands that he won't be signed by anoyone for 2013 and it's highly unlikely he'll get the 25 HRs he needs even if he winds up with a team that gives him regular playing time (which is unlikely since he said he'd only consider playing for a team that can be a contender in 2012 and that probably means he'd be a platoon DH or backup/pinch hitter).

tcaporale wrote:

So Posada is either going to retire or play for another team next year, apparently.

Cliffy6745

He's not coming back. He saw how Montero played down the stretch. Funny he talked to Bernie, I am sure the Yanks will offer him an invite to camp, which he will decline, much like Bernie.

xavier mcdaniel

Very interesting comparison made here in the http://www.nj.com/yankees/index.ssf/201 ... witterfeed on how Mark Buehrle could be like getting Jimmy Key in 1992. That was when Maddux spurned the Yankees for the Braves, Cone went from his rental stint with the Blue Jays to the Royals.

The only difference is that Key was not adding to a rotation filled with aces but was the ace on a team that the year before that had a rotation anchored by Melido Perez and Scott Sanderson.

Cliffy6745

Hellickson ROY, Nova 4th.

xavier mcdaniel

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Hellickson ROY, Nova 4th.

I think that was right, Nova's ERA wasn't under four until August 21 and it's very rare for someone with an ERA over 3.50 to win any award. Plus you look at the last two AL Cy Young votes for precedence where ERA trumps wins.

Cliffy6745

xavier mcdaniel wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Hellickson ROY, Nova 4th.

I think that was right, Nova's ERA wasn't under four until August 21 and it's very rare for someone with an ERA over 3.50 to win any award. Plus you look at the last two AL Cy Young votes for precedence where ERA trumps wins.

I have no problem with it. Nova is not in Hellickson's league.