You're the one who sounds very young here. You shop at Walmart first of all and don't have much social awareness at all. You also sound like you have no idea how to think for yourself: you let the TV tell you how to think, don't you?
And who tells you how to think? The mother ship?
Seriously, get over the Wal-Mart thing. If, when I die, the worst thing they say about me is, "He shopped at Wal-Mart" then I will have lived a greater life than Ghandi.
Or, maybe I will have lived a greater life than even holier-than-thou you. Ah, never mind. Not even Jesus was a better person than you. He probably got his sandals at the Galilee Wal-Mart.
Seriously. The arrogance and condescension is fucking astounding.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
Just imagine what I'll do when I watch Hannity afterwards. Oh, I hope he has Ann Coulter on.
Chicago 6/29/98 - Nashville 8/17/00 - Cleveland 4/25/03- Chicago 6/18/03
Chicago 5/16/06 - Milwaukee 6/30/06 - Bonnaroo 6/14/08 - Milwaukee (EV)8/19/08
Chicago 8/23/09 - St. Louis 5/4/10 - East Troy 9/3/11 - East Troy 9/4/11
Minor League Park 7/19/13 - Milwaukee 10-20-14 - Bonnaroo 6/11/16
Minor League Park 8/20/16 - Minor League Park 8/22/16 Minor League Park 8/18/18 - Minor League Park 8/20/18 - Los Angeles 4/16/20
redrock, getting my yogurt for 62 cents as opposed to 99 cents....also a necessary evil i say.
A good point, especially in these times when everyone is watching their pennies. Now you may say you are getting your yogurt at 62 cents because the supermarket is squeezing the little guy producing the yogurt (ie. you want us to buy your stuff, you sell it to us real cheap BUT we can guarantee we buy xxx per week) - is that ethical? Or you may think you are giving the lil' producer a better chance when you are buying the same yogurt somewhere else at 99 cents. The thing is... you probably don't. The probable reason that the yogurt is at 99cents is that overheads cannot be so easily offset by volume sales (which are not there!). Food for thought.
So your definition of "sell out" is ... what? ... making money?
To me, when we're talking about music, selling out means sacrificing your artistic integrity -- ie, your music -- in order to make money. On the purest level, it means writing songs you don't believe in and you don't even like, in order to fit in with whatever the flavor of the month is.
You can sell out without ever taking a dime from Verizon or Target or whoever.
And, you can also taking money from Verizon and Target and the fucking Republican National Committee, and so long as your music stays pure, and you are writing songs you believe in, you are not a sell out.
When Target starts telling Pearl Jam what can and can't be on their record, then I'll start to think about the sell-out word.
You're contradicting yourself here because you said in an earlier post that Green Day wearing eyeliner made them sell-outs. But wearing eyeliner didn't make them sacrifice their artistic integrity musically. and I doubt they made any money by wearing eyeliner...unlike PJ who cashed in on the Verizon text message screen.
I didn't neccesarily say the makeover made Green Day sellouts. I said it just didn't sit right with me. I used to like Green Day's music, but I don't like this new direction they seem to be bent on heading. Because of that, I'm probably harder on them than I should be.
I still think they are the Jonas Brothers for the adult set, but that's my cross to bear.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
And I personally think it's an excellent idea to work with people from the inside to seek change in our society. We can only try...and that's what activism is all about.
exactly.
work the system to change the system.
redrock, getting my yogurt for 62 cents as opposed to 99 cents....also a necessary evil i say.
62 cents is still somewhat pricey. every once in awhile i can get 50 cents. big day in my world. then i have money to buy Mudhoney posters with dinosaurs.
Chicago 6/29/98 - Nashville 8/17/00 - Cleveland 4/25/03- Chicago 6/18/03
Chicago 5/16/06 - Milwaukee 6/30/06 - Bonnaroo 6/14/08 - Milwaukee (EV)8/19/08
Chicago 8/23/09 - St. Louis 5/4/10 - East Troy 9/3/11 - East Troy 9/4/11
Minor League Park 7/19/13 - Milwaukee 10-20-14 - Bonnaroo 6/11/16
Minor League Park 8/20/16 - Minor League Park 8/22/16 Minor League Park 8/18/18 - Minor League Park 8/20/18 - Los Angeles 4/16/20
Seriously, how much time do you spend finding pictures?
Chicago 6/29/98 - Nashville 8/17/00 - Cleveland 4/25/03- Chicago 6/18/03
Chicago 5/16/06 - Milwaukee 6/30/06 - Bonnaroo 6/14/08 - Milwaukee (EV)8/19/08
Chicago 8/23/09 - St. Louis 5/4/10 - East Troy 9/3/11 - East Troy 9/4/11
Minor League Park 7/19/13 - Milwaukee 10-20-14 - Bonnaroo 6/11/16
Minor League Park 8/20/16 - Minor League Park 8/22/16 Minor League Park 8/18/18 - Minor League Park 8/20/18 - Los Angeles 4/16/20
Why is there such this huge backlash among some people in this country against making money? Like it's a sin to be rich?
Contrary to popular belief the song Green Disease is NOT against making money.
"There's nothing wrong with what you say ..."
It's against how SOME PEOPLE choose to make money ... by trampling on the backs of the poor ... weeds with big leaves stealing light from what's beneath.
Someone will have to explain to me how this TArget deal hurts anyone ... except for maybe Wal-Mart, which is something I thought the hemp-underwear wearing crowd would appreciate.
Anybody notice how the band explicity went out of its way to ensure the little guys -- ie independent record stores -- would still be able to sell the album? Anyway ... some people just believe any store or company they've heard of just has to be evil ... some people want to believe the worst about everything ... some people just like to find reasons to bitch ... there's no arguing with some people.
really do appreciate you more on the porch.
haha.
seriously. i don't get it.
it's not just about money....it is ALSO about getting their music out there. they absolutely do NOT *NEED* to make another penny in their lifetime. however, perhaps they actually ENJOY making music, selling albums, touring...and yes, also helping to support all those who have supported them all these years....their staff and all.....and perhaps they do like sharing their music with us still, thinking, yea.....we do still want it! i don't want them just to tour, i want them to continue to make NEW MUSIC.....i want to hear new music, and i want to be able to pop in a CD and hear a NEW pearl jam album! yes, i would more than likely buy thru 10c, but many, many others don't even KNOw wtf 10c is, and not getting involved...by teaming up with target.....AND...by selling thru indie stores.....AND thru 10c......probably also thru itunes....etc...they reach the LARGEST audience possible, and yes....*gasp!*....they make $$$ too. hate to break it to ya, they have made $$$.....LOTS of $$$...since day one. actually they probably made MORe $$$ back in those days of nostalgia than they do now or ever will again. funny how that all works...... :geek:
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redrock, getting my yogurt for 62 cents as opposed to 99 cents....also a necessary evil i say.
A good point, especially in these times when everyone is watching their pennies. Now you may say you are getting your yogurt at 62 cents because the supermarket is squeezing the little guy producing the yogurt (ie. you want us to buy your stuff, you sell it to us real cheap BUT we can guarantee we buy xxx per week) - is that ethical? Or you may think you are giving the lil' producer a better chance when you are buying the same yogurt somewhere else at 99 cents. The thing is... you probably don't. The probable reason that the yogurt is at 99cents is that overheads cannot be so easily offset by volume sales (which are not there!). Food for thought.
actually, i am saying i am getting my yogurt at target for 62 cents and not for 99 cents at the supermarket! i have no idea what walmart prices are b/c yea....there is just too much bad karma there imo, i won't shop there. however, i also understand for a great # of people, it is a necessity. we don't really have small grocers around me, and yea...those we do have....WAAAAAYYYY too pricey for my budget. and you are exactly right. the 'little guy'...the guy making/selling the yogurt, more than likely...getting the same 'profit' whether thru the green grocers, the supermarket, target or what have you....it's the shops individual overhead costs, etc, that really determine their pricing. this does not make target evil incarnate tho....just makes my yogurt a better buy there. :P
seriously. i don't get it.
it's not just about money....it is ALSO about getting their music out there. they absolutely do NOT *NEED* to make another penny in their lifetime. however, perhaps they actually ENJOY making music, selling albums, touring...and yes, also helping to support all those who have supported them all these years....their staff and all.....and perhaps they do like sharing their music with us still, thinking, yea.....we do still want it! i don't want them just to tour, i want them to continue to make NEW MUSIC.....i want to hear new music, and i want to be able to pop in a CD and hear a NEW pearl jam album! yes, i would more than likely buy thru 10c, but many, many others don't even KNOw wtf 10c is, and not getting involved...by teaming up with target.....AND...by selling thru indie stores.....AND thru 10c......probably also thru itunes....etc...they reach the LARGEST audience possible, and yes....*gasp!*....they make $$$ too. hate to break it to ya, they have made $$$.....LOTS of $$$...since day one. actually they probably made MORe $$$ back in those days of nostalgia than they do now or ever will again. funny how that all works...... :geek:
Good points, through and through.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
they absolutely do NOT *NEED* to make another penny in their lifetime.
The thing is... we don't know. We don't know what their financial situation is (though we can have a guess!), good investments, bad investments, crazy spending.... I know.. maybe far fetched but we just can't make assumptions.
Also, a musican's career is fickle and may last the blink of an eyelid or a lifetime. One doesn't know (but hopefully PJ will be around for many years to come). Retirement? Need to factor that in too.
I'm sure they are far from poor... but maybe they DO need to earn a living!
I'm not even going to start about staff salaries, etc.
Anyway.. it's their job, they get paid for it. Simple.
Just as a bit of information, not sure if anyone will think it's important, but I do.
These are some of the people Pearl Jam are involved with.
And I personally think it's an excellent idea to work with people from the inside to seek change in our society. We can only try...and that's what activism is all about.
* Pacific Salmon Stronghold Conservation Act
* A note from our friend Andy Bernstein, founder of HeadCount
* National Day of Service
* Announcing the Launch of evergreenfilm.org!
* BODY OF WAR released on DVD
* Holiday Giving –Vitalogy Foundation and Pearl Jam Personal Contributions
* Pearl Jam: Vote for Change? 2004 Tour Film
* E-cycling
* Alternative News
* Carbon Portfolio
* Non-Profits
* Politics, What Now?
* Talk Back!
Non-Profits, Benefits and Organizations
This section of the site lists organizations that we support, financially or otherwise.
ANIMAL PROTECTION ORGANIZATIONS
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ARTS AND EDUCATION ORGANIZATIONS
* 826 Seattle
* Arts Corps
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* The Northwest School
* Northwest Literacy Foundation/Fill the Shelves in Public Schools Book Campaign
* Book Campaign
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* VERA Project
HEALTH-RELATED ORGANIZATIONS
* Advocacy for Patients
* Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America
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ENVIRONMENTAL ORGANIZATIONS
* Conservation International
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* Washington Wilderness Coalition
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2006 TOUR BENEFICIARIES
* 9 May Toronto
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Sketch
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* 24 May Boston
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ZUMIX
* 27 May Philadelphia
The Innocence Project
* 28 May Philadelphia
The Spiral Q Puppet Theater
* 30 May Washington, DC
Future of Music Coalition
* 1 June East Rutherford
The Community FoodBank of New Jersey
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* 23 June Pittsburgh
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Elementz: The Hip Hop Youth Arts Center
* 6 July Las Vegas
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The Grassroots Organization
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Air Traffic Control
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The Edible Schoolyard
* 18 July San Francisco
The Youth Media Council
* 22-23 July George
Arts Corps
* 22-23 July George
826 Seattle
* 22-23 July George
The Vera Project
This should be bumped to every page
Thamks Kat :P
"What the CANUCK happened?!? - Esquimalt Barber Shop
The aspect I find most interesting here if PJ is continuing to live the "Be the Change you want to see in the World" philosophy (which I believe they are) then a deal with Target during this tough economic time is perfect. Yes Target is a large corp, but corps are the way of our world...today. This particular one has showed glimpses of trying to do the right thing and perhaps just needs some direction by the right kind of people (not the ones only focused on money-making). The people who care about a better world, better local economies and want to see the "little guys" win are the ones who need to use their talents and get involved with the big guys and show them how it CAN be done. If we all step in the right direction simutaneously then things have the best chance of moving in that direction. We do our best to buy the produce we don't grow from the local farm, use our local record and hardware stores, but we can't afford to buy everything from our local guys (diapers mainly !) I like to think (hope) that getting in the right frame of mind and changing my own priorities is helping in some way. I like to think that one of these days my local farm will be selling so much of the good stuff to people who care that the big box grocers will have to buy less...
got a car...got some gas...oh let's get out of here-get out of here fast...
I hope you get this message but your not home...I will be there in just a minute or so...
I want to go but I want to go with you.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. -MT
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough. I'm fine, still in it.
funny too....we are having this discussion on the internet....probably on microsoft, apple, or any of those big computer corp computers.....hahahahahaha. irony........
yeah i did say that on my very first post on this very thread i started... that was the idea behind it
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
actually, i am saying i am getting my yogurt at target for 62 cents and not for 99 cents at the supermarket!
Sorry.. by supermarket I meant places like Target :oops: I guess for you supermarket is the greengrocer!
actually, here in the states.....three seperate entities:
local green grocer/mom and pop store
supermarket/local store but probably somewhat corporate
target and all the evil minded stores sell groceries/CDs/clothing/you name it.....total sell outs!
dunky...you're so amusing, it's always all about you eh?
(btw - i realize that was the point of your other thread...but this is a different thread...and the point still stands, and bears repeating)
obviously it's all our own inference and all....but really, i personally think that it is simply b/c they are SELF-producing/promoting/distributing this album, a first for them....it's simply more DIRECT. before, anything else that went on to promote their album, one would say 'oh it's the record label' etc......but now, we know it's 10c/pj making all these decisions. thing of it is, how ELSE are they supposed to get their music OUT THERE? shall they ONLY distribute to indie shops - a guarantee of failure - only online - alienate some fans - etc - etc...? they are doing this on their OWN, they have to make these decisions to remain viable, for their fans, and yes...for THEMselves. that isn't 'desperate' that's business. musicians, like all creative people....always have to balance ART with COMMERCE.
and seriously, wtf is wrong with loving/adoring target? i said as much earlier...but as 'big retail corps' go.....target is a pretty 'ideal' partner for pj. obviously they are BIG...but they DO give back, a LOT, to the communities they profit from.....sounds quite a good fit for pj.
i simply see it as pj being realistic, and working within the times, balance, as best they can...
posted it pages and pages ago...never really got an answer.
can someone tell me exactly HOW pearl jam *should* go about selling their music if not making deals with any evil corps?
The aspect I find most interesting here if PJ is continuing to live the "Be the Change you want to see in the World" philosophy (which I believe they are) then a deal with Target during this tough economic time is perfect. Yes Target is a large corp, but corps are the way of our world...today. This particular one has showed glimpses of trying to do the right thing and perhaps just needs some direction by the right kind of people (not the ones only focused on money-making). The people who care about a better world, better local economies and want to see the "little guys" win are the ones who need to use their talents and get involved with the big guys and show them how it CAN be done. If we all step in the right direction simutaneously then things have the best chance of moving in that direction. We do our best to buy the produce we don't grow from the local farm, use our local record and hardware stores, but we can't afford to buy everything from our local guys (diapers mainly !) I like to think (hope) that getting in the right frame of mind and changing my own priorities is helping in some way. I like to think that one of these days my local farm will be selling so much of the good stuff to people who care that the big box grocers will have to buy less...
Large corps are the way of the world because they're monopolizing the markets, putting smaller businesses out of business. This is the way they work and how they grow to be giants. Target is one of these. Settling for the reality that these corporations are taking over the world is pure ignorance and settling. Talk to you local small business owners and ask them exactly how they feel about these large corporations taking over. It's killing them.
Watch "The Future of Food" for an update on our food industry. It's an eye opener, and the sheer prices and food shortages add to the issues of availability. I don't want to know what's to come in the future. The solution? Grow a garden this summer. Support local farmers, and attend farmer's markets. They do rely on the local communities unless they're a gov't subsidy.
You're right about getting the right people in these giant corporations to lead them in the right direction, it's what's needed right now. Target's philanthropy does sound like they're trying to do the right thing. But, they are outsourcing. Outsourcing takes business out of this country and gives it to another, causing harm to our own economy and employment numbers, for the sake of their bottom line, because as most would say "...it's cheaper to do business overseas".
Target Corp has been Outsourcing since 1993. It is America’s fourth-largest general merchandise retailer, operating 1,200 stores and 19 distribution centers across the United States. It has been outsourcing offshore in order to reduce costs, has 16 projects with offshore components and 12 moving in that direction.
According to Randy Kirihara, senior manager, Target Corporation, "Offshore outsourcing is not easy, it takes time. Senior management commitment and follow-through are critical." And that commitment is now beginning to manifest itself in increasingly larger number of companies. West Group is an example where top management is firmly committed to outsourcing offshore. from http://dqindia.ciol.com/content/outsour ... 021201.asp
can someone tell me exactly HOW pearl jam *should* go about selling their music if not making deals with any evil corps?
For starters, they could distribute like they always have...without partnering with one specific sponsor. They now have a brand attached to them. Before, they didn't (yes, I know Sony was a major player but not a marketer). When I see the words Pearl Jam, I don't want to see the word Target next to it, much like Green Day's latest commercial for 21st Century Breakdown with Verizon next to theirs.
The aspect I find most interesting here if PJ is continuing to live the "Be the Change you want to see in the World" philosophy (which I believe they are) then a deal with Target during this tough economic time is perfect. Yes Target is a large corp, but corps are the way of our world...today. This particular one has showed glimpses of trying to do the right thing and perhaps just needs some direction by the right kind of people (not the ones only focused on money-making). The people who care about a better world, better local economies and want to see the "little guys" win are the ones who need to use their talents and get involved with the big guys and show them how it CAN be done. If we all step in the right direction simutaneously then things have the best chance of moving in that direction. We do our best to buy the produce we don't grow from the local farm, use our local record and hardware stores, but we can't afford to buy everything from our local guys (diapers mainly !) I like to think (hope) that getting in the right frame of mind and changing my own priorities is helping in some way. I like to think that one of these days my local farm will be selling so much of the good stuff to people who care that the big box grocers will have to buy less...
Large corps are the way of the world because they're monopolizing the markets, putting smaller businesses out of business. This is the way they work and how they grow to be giants. Target is one of these. Settling for the reality that these corporations are taking over the world is pure ignorance and settling. Talk to you local small business owners and ask them exactly how they feel about these large corporations taking over. It's killing them.
Then the small business owners need to find a way to sell their products cheaper. Or produce a product or service that Target cannot provide.
It's evolution, baby.
It's like we're all in the primordial soup of pre-evolution, swimming along with the other fish, and a couple other fish sprout legs and walk up onto land. Do we say, "Hey, no fair! You've got legs now!?" Or, do we sprout our own legs and evolve?
If these giant corporations are doing something ILLEGAL to drive Mom and Pop out of business, then of course they should be stopped. If their big sin is that they are offering products that people want at lower prices ... like I said, evolution, baby.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
Large corps are the way of the world because they're monopolizing the markets, putting smaller businesses out of business. This is the way they work and how they grow to be giants. Target is one of these. Settling for the reality that these corporations are taking over the world is pure ignorance and settling. Talk to you local small business owners and ask them exactly how they feel about these large corporations taking over. It's killing them.
Then the small business owners need to find a way to sell their products cheaper. Or produce a product or service that Target cannot provide.
It's evolution, baby.
It's like we're all in the primordial soup of pre-evolution, swimming along with the other fish, and a couple other fish sprout legs and walk up onto land. Do we say, "Hey, no fair! You've got legs now!?" Or, do we sprout our own legs and evolve?
If these giant corporations are doing something ILLEGAL to drive Mom and Pop out of business, then of course they should be stopped. If their big sin is that they are offering products that people want at lower prices ... like I said, evolution, baby.
And this is why I think you're not very socially aware, because everything is not about how cheap it is. It's about value, it's about integrity, it's about People before Profit. You don't get this at all.
The aspect I find most interesting here if PJ is continuing to live the "Be the Change you want to see in the World" philosophy (which I believe they are) then a deal with Target during this tough economic time is perfect. Yes Target is a large corp, but corps are the way of our world...today. This particular one has showed glimpses of trying to do the right thing and perhaps just needs some direction by the right kind of people (not the ones only focused on money-making). The people who care about a better world, better local economies and want to see the "little guys" win are the ones who need to use their talents and get involved with the big guys and show them how it CAN be done. If we all step in the right direction simutaneously then things have the best chance of moving in that direction. We do our best to buy the produce we don't grow from the local farm, use our local record and hardware stores, but we can't afford to buy everything from our local guys (diapers mainly !) I like to think (hope) that getting in the right frame of mind and changing my own priorities is helping in some way. I like to think that one of these days my local farm will be selling so much of the good stuff to people who care that the big box grocers will have to buy less...
thank you for this post.
it's all about BALANCE..finding the best way, the right way, for you...to find your way in this CURRENT climate we live in. i truly believe pj is making the *best* of this situation, wieghed their options and made the best choice of what exists for us all, now. i don't honestly know wtf people actually WANT or EXPECT them to do. stop making music? stop selling CDs? stop touring? ALL of these activities are corp-sponsored in one way or another...there is NO escaping it today, unless you have all your shows in your basement. i think working WITHIN the system, with the BEST, most responsible partners you can find...who value your contribution and your values...working together with you and also working for bettering communities...well, i think that is the most and *best* you can ask of anyone...whether a rockstar or your neighbor.
jeanwah...name a big corp who doesn't outsource?
the little guys can always stay local, simply b/c they are little.
just as the internet, we DO live in a very global community now.
from day ONE...pearl jam has been in bed with corps....as curtis rightly points out, 18 years with SONY. if you accepted that, i don't see what the difference is here.......
and why does having one corp instead of all of em involved...make it any *better*...?
i actually think they are making a BETTER statement by teaming with target, then simply allowing their music in ALL the big box retailers...b/c they are teaming with a corp well KNOWN for their community works, LOTS of em, LOTS of $$$...and also it is CLEAR they are keeping up with the indie shops...to me that sends an even BETTER message. reward the corps who are following a model you admire, or at least respect....moreso than other corp models. there are always at least 2 sides, and susually more, to every choice and decision. i fail to see how one partnership is *worse* than none really, b/c bottomline, their music either way is sold in the big bad retil giants in both cases...tho in the partnership YOU are choosing/limiting who benefits from your product.
And this is why I think you're not very socially aware, because everything is not about how cheap it is.
not to point out the obvious, but for many....'social awareness' is the least of their worries, and being able to afford their homes and put food on their tables is. i think for most of us here, thankfully, we can afford the luxury of being socially aware, and thus selective of who and where we spend our $$$....and that's also why i choose to shop at target and not walmart, b/c i DO think they are a better corp. also why i think pj is dealing with them, b/c they too want more of their fans to have access and affordability with their music. it IS absolutely ALL related.
can someone tell me exactly HOW pearl jam *should* go about selling their music if not making deals with any evil corps?
For starters, they could distribute like they always have...without partnering with one specific sponsor. They now have a brand attached to them. Before, they didn't (yes, I know Sony was a major player but not a marketer). When I see the words Pearl Jam, I don't want to see the word Target next to it, much like Green Day's latest commercial for 21st Century Breakdown with Verizon next to theirs.
WTF are you talking about?? I'm trying to understand your point, I really am. But your logic doesn't make any sense to me. So from what I can gather in what you are saying is that Sony doesn't market any of the bands that are signed to their labels?
Oh, and on every Pearl Jam album you have there is a brand attached to it. Be it Epic, or J Records, or Sony.
And this is why I think you're not very socially aware, because everything is not about how cheap it is.
And I don't think you understand how basic economics works.
If you have two identical products, but one sells for $5 cheaper than the other, that one is going to win out.
Every. Single. Time.
PS -- You REALLY need to stop making assumptions about my level of social awareness. You have no idea who am I, what I do, or what causes I support or do not support. It's really not cool.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
just a question too....i realize they ALL outsource, some worse than others......but also, by target outsourcing to reduce costs, thus working towards staying in business and yes turning a profit...that ALSO means they continue to pass on savings to their customers and continue to keep HOW MANY people employed? again, it's ALL related. and i am not saying they are all good...but they ain't all bad...just like most things. however, i think it helps to see the BIG picture too, and i agree focusing on the greater good.
bottomline....in this discussion
18 years with sony
now independent and partnering with target
somehow i fail to see the 'difference'...and if anything, for all the reasons i previously stated, i actually think the current arrangement is 'better' for pj, for fans, and for their values.......once again shows just how differently we all can view the world...
And this is why I think you're not very socially aware, because everything is not about how cheap it is.
not to point out the obvious, but for many....'social awareness' is the least of their worries, and being able to afford their homes and put food on their tables is.
That's an excellent point. Many families -- a growing number, sadly -- don't have any choice but to buy the cheapest products they can find.
It doesn't matter if it comes from Wal-Mart. If was was outsourced to India. If it is of lesser quality. They simply don't have any other option.
It is that, or their children starve. Or can't have school supplies. Or diapers.
Seems a little insensitve to cast aspersions on them because big, bad Wal-Mart happens to be their only option.
Now me, I only shop there because they sell equipment for clubbing baby seals at discount prices. Oh, was I not supposed to say that? You'll have to forgive me ... I'm not very "socially aware"
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
Comments
And who tells you how to think? The mother ship?
Seriously, get over the Wal-Mart thing. If, when I die, the worst thing they say about me is, "He shopped at Wal-Mart" then I will have lived a greater life than Ghandi.
Or, maybe I will have lived a greater life than even holier-than-thou you. Ah, never mind. Not even Jesus was a better person than you. He probably got his sandals at the Galilee Wal-Mart.
Seriously. The arrogance and condescension is fucking astounding.
for the least they could possibly do
Just imagine what I'll do when I watch Hannity afterwards. Oh, I hope he has Ann Coulter on.
Chicago 5/16/06 - Milwaukee 6/30/06 - Bonnaroo 6/14/08 - Milwaukee (EV)8/19/08
Chicago 8/23/09 - St. Louis 5/4/10 - East Troy 9/3/11 - East Troy 9/4/11
Minor League Park 7/19/13 - Milwaukee 10-20-14 - Bonnaroo 6/11/16
Minor League Park 8/20/16 - Minor League Park 8/22/16
Minor League Park 8/18/18 - Minor League Park 8/20/18 - Los Angeles 4/16/20
A good point, especially in these times when everyone is watching their pennies. Now you may say you are getting your yogurt at 62 cents because the supermarket is squeezing the little guy producing the yogurt (ie. you want us to buy your stuff, you sell it to us real cheap BUT we can guarantee we buy xxx per week) - is that ethical? Or you may think you are giving the lil' producer a better chance when you are buying the same yogurt somewhere else at 99 cents. The thing is... you probably don't. The probable reason that the yogurt is at 99cents is that overheads cannot be so easily offset by volume sales (which are not there!). Food for thought.
I didn't neccesarily say the makeover made Green Day sellouts. I said it just didn't sit right with me. I used to like Green Day's music, but I don't like this new direction they seem to be bent on heading. Because of that, I'm probably harder on them than I should be.
I still think they are the Jonas Brothers for the adult set, but that's my cross to bear.
for the least they could possibly do
62 cents is still somewhat pricey. every once in awhile i can get 50 cents. big day in my world. then i have money to buy Mudhoney posters with dinosaurs.
Chicago 5/16/06 - Milwaukee 6/30/06 - Bonnaroo 6/14/08 - Milwaukee (EV)8/19/08
Chicago 8/23/09 - St. Louis 5/4/10 - East Troy 9/3/11 - East Troy 9/4/11
Minor League Park 7/19/13 - Milwaukee 10-20-14 - Bonnaroo 6/11/16
Minor League Park 8/20/16 - Minor League Park 8/22/16
Minor League Park 8/18/18 - Minor League Park 8/20/18 - Los Angeles 4/16/20
Best way to do it.
Seriously, how much time do you spend finding pictures?
Chicago 5/16/06 - Milwaukee 6/30/06 - Bonnaroo 6/14/08 - Milwaukee (EV)8/19/08
Chicago 8/23/09 - St. Louis 5/4/10 - East Troy 9/3/11 - East Troy 9/4/11
Minor League Park 7/19/13 - Milwaukee 10-20-14 - Bonnaroo 6/11/16
Minor League Park 8/20/16 - Minor League Park 8/22/16
Minor League Park 8/18/18 - Minor League Park 8/20/18 - Los Angeles 4/16/20
really do appreciate you more on the porch.
haha.
seriously. i don't get it.
it's not just about money....it is ALSO about getting their music out there. they absolutely do NOT *NEED* to make another penny in their lifetime. however, perhaps they actually ENJOY making music, selling albums, touring...and yes, also helping to support all those who have supported them all these years....their staff and all.....and perhaps they do like sharing their music with us still, thinking, yea.....we do still want it! i don't want them just to tour, i want them to continue to make NEW MUSIC.....i want to hear new music, and i want to be able to pop in a CD and hear a NEW pearl jam album! yes, i would more than likely buy thru 10c, but many, many others don't even KNOw wtf 10c is, and not getting involved...by teaming up with target.....AND...by selling thru indie stores.....AND thru 10c......probably also thru itunes....etc...they reach the LARGEST audience possible, and yes....*gasp!*....they make $$$ too. hate to break it to ya, they have made $$$.....LOTS of $$$...since day one. actually they probably made MORe $$$ back in those days of nostalgia than they do now or ever will again. funny how that all works...... :geek:
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
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Thank you
actually, i am saying i am getting my yogurt at target for 62 cents and not for 99 cents at the supermarket! i have no idea what walmart prices are b/c yea....there is just too much bad karma there imo, i won't shop there. however, i also understand for a great # of people, it is a necessity. we don't really have small grocers around me, and yea...those we do have....WAAAAAYYYY too pricey for my budget. and you are exactly right. the 'little guy'...the guy making/selling the yogurt, more than likely...getting the same 'profit' whether thru the green grocers, the supermarket, target or what have you....it's the shops individual overhead costs, etc, that really determine their pricing. this does not make target evil incarnate tho....just makes my yogurt a better buy there. :P
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Good points, through and through.
for the least they could possibly do
The thing is... we don't know. We don't know what their financial situation is (though we can have a guess!), good investments, bad investments, crazy spending.... I know.. maybe far fetched but we just can't make assumptions.
Also, a musican's career is fickle and may last the blink of an eyelid or a lifetime. One doesn't know (but hopefully PJ will be around for many years to come). Retirement? Need to factor that in too.
I'm sure they are far from poor... but maybe they DO need to earn a living!
I'm not even going to start about staff salaries, etc.
Anyway.. it's their job, they get paid for it. Simple.
This should be bumped to every page
Thamks Kat :P
Sorry.. by supermarket I meant places like Target :oops: I guess for you supermarket is the greengrocer!
I hope you get this message but your not home...I will be there in just a minute or so...
I want to go but I want to go with you.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. -MT
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough. I'm fine, still in it.
yeah i did say that on my very first post on this very thread i started... that was the idea behind it
actually, here in the states.....three seperate entities:
local green grocer/mom and pop store
supermarket/local store but probably somewhat corporate
target and all the evil minded stores
dunky...you're so amusing, it's always all about you eh?
(btw - i realize that was the point of your other thread...but this is a different thread...and the point still stands, and bears repeating)
btw - i am quoting myself here....
posted it pages and pages ago...never really got an answer.
can someone tell me exactly HOW pearl jam *should* go about selling their music if not making deals with any evil corps?
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Large corps are the way of the world because they're monopolizing the markets, putting smaller businesses out of business. This is the way they work and how they grow to be giants. Target is one of these. Settling for the reality that these corporations are taking over the world is pure ignorance and settling. Talk to you local small business owners and ask them exactly how they feel about these large corporations taking over. It's killing them.
Watch "The Future of Food" for an update on our food industry. It's an eye opener, and the sheer prices and food shortages add to the issues of availability. I don't want to know what's to come in the future. The solution? Grow a garden this summer. Support local farmers, and attend farmer's markets. They do rely on the local communities unless they're a gov't subsidy.
You're right about getting the right people in these giant corporations to lead them in the right direction, it's what's needed right now. Target's philanthropy does sound like they're trying to do the right thing. But, they are outsourcing. Outsourcing takes business out of this country and gives it to another, causing harm to our own economy and employment numbers, for the sake of their bottom line, because as most would say "...it's cheaper to do business overseas".
Then the small business owners need to find a way to sell their products cheaper. Or produce a product or service that Target cannot provide.
It's evolution, baby.
It's like we're all in the primordial soup of pre-evolution, swimming along with the other fish, and a couple other fish sprout legs and walk up onto land. Do we say, "Hey, no fair! You've got legs now!?" Or, do we sprout our own legs and evolve?
If these giant corporations are doing something ILLEGAL to drive Mom and Pop out of business, then of course they should be stopped. If their big sin is that they are offering products that people want at lower prices ... like I said, evolution, baby.
for the least they could possibly do
thank you for this post.
it's all about BALANCE..finding the best way, the right way, for you...to find your way in this CURRENT climate we live in. i truly believe pj is making the *best* of this situation, wieghed their options and made the best choice of what exists for us all, now. i don't honestly know wtf people actually WANT or EXPECT them to do. stop making music? stop selling CDs? stop touring? ALL of these activities are corp-sponsored in one way or another...there is NO escaping it today, unless you have all your shows in your basement. i think working WITHIN the system, with the BEST, most responsible partners you can find...who value your contribution and your values...working together with you and also working for bettering communities...well, i think that is the most and *best* you can ask of anyone...whether a rockstar or your neighbor.
jeanwah...name a big corp who doesn't outsource?
the little guys can always stay local, simply b/c they are little.
just as the internet, we DO live in a very global community now.
from day ONE...pearl jam has been in bed with corps....as curtis rightly points out, 18 years with SONY. if you accepted that, i don't see what the difference is here.......
and why does having one corp instead of all of em involved...make it any *better*...?
i actually think they are making a BETTER statement by teaming with target, then simply allowing their music in ALL the big box retailers...b/c they are teaming with a corp well KNOWN for their community works, LOTS of em, LOTS of $$$...and also it is CLEAR they are keeping up with the indie shops...to me that sends an even BETTER message. reward the corps who are following a model you admire, or at least respect....moreso than other corp models. there are always at least 2 sides, and susually more, to every choice and decision. i fail to see how one partnership is *worse* than none really, b/c bottomline, their music either way is sold in the big bad retil giants in both cases...tho in the partnership YOU are choosing/limiting who benefits from your product.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
not to point out the obvious, but for many....'social awareness' is the least of their worries, and being able to afford their homes and put food on their tables is. i think for most of us here, thankfully, we can afford the luxury of being socially aware, and thus selective of who and where we spend our $$$....and that's also why i choose to shop at target and not walmart, b/c i DO think they are a better corp. also why i think pj is dealing with them, b/c they too want more of their fans to have access and affordability with their music. it IS absolutely ALL related.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
WTF are you talking about?? I'm trying to understand your point, I really am. But your logic doesn't make any sense to me. So from what I can gather in what you are saying is that Sony doesn't market any of the bands that are signed to their labels?
Oh, and on every Pearl Jam album you have there is a brand attached to it. Be it Epic, or J Records, or Sony.
And I don't think you understand how basic economics works.
If you have two identical products, but one sells for $5 cheaper than the other, that one is going to win out.
Every. Single. Time.
PS -- You REALLY need to stop making assumptions about my level of social awareness. You have no idea who am I, what I do, or what causes I support or do not support. It's really not cool.
for the least they could possibly do
bottomline....in this discussion
18 years with sony
now independent and partnering with target
somehow i fail to see the 'difference'...and if anything, for all the reasons i previously stated, i actually think the current arrangement is 'better' for pj, for fans, and for their values.......once again shows just how differently we all can view the world...
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
That's an excellent point. Many families -- a growing number, sadly -- don't have any choice but to buy the cheapest products they can find.
It doesn't matter if it comes from Wal-Mart. If was was outsourced to India. If it is of lesser quality. They simply don't have any other option.
It is that, or their children starve. Or can't have school supplies. Or diapers.
Seems a little insensitve to cast aspersions on them because big, bad Wal-Mart happens to be their only option.
Now me, I only shop there because they sell equipment for clubbing baby seals at discount prices. Oh, was I not supposed to say that? You'll have to forgive me ... I'm not very "socially aware"
for the least they could possibly do