hey... you anti-huge corporation people who are freaking out

slightofjeff

dunkman wrote:

slightofjeff wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

It takes zero money to be socially aware. Be a good neighbor, look out for others rather than just yourself, take care extended family and friends. Sure, donating is a big part, but you don't have to have money to donate old things you were going to throw out, your time if you have it, or buy a raffle ticket. Attend a pre-party fundraiser and participate!!
Altruism is an ideal that everyone can participate, everyone.

I think what he was referring to is that some people can't afford to shop anywhere but Wal-Mart. It's easy to pay more to shop at Mom and Pop when you have the means to do so.

Some people don't have that option. They have to go to Wal-Mart because it is the only way to get sufficient food on the table, and they can't worry about whether Wal-Mart is a big, evil corporation that eats children.

Jean Valjean stole bread to feed his family.
I'm not sure that shopping at Wal-Mart is much worse.

thats what i meant

nice Les Miserables reference in there as well

Even we socially unaware cretins read something other than a coloring book every now and then

redrock

Jeanwah wrote:

It takes zero money to be socially aware. Be a good neighbor, look out for others rather than just yourself, take care extended family and friends. Sure, donating is a big part, but you don't have to have money to donate old things you were going to throw out, your time if you have it, or buy a raffle ticket. Attend a pre-party fundraiser and participate!!
Altruism is an ideal that everyone can participate, everyone.

That's just being a good neighbour and friend. OK giving your old stuff to charity is going towards the socially aware, but real/active social awareness can be a full time job.

In our day and age, convenience is a huge factor in the way we live....

From the dawn of time, we have looked to 'convenience' - if not, we would still be in the stone age. You have a car, a phone, a pc, a fridge/freezer, a microwave, maybe a dishwasher.... convenience, saves time... Just like Target - all under one roof - saves time.

decides2dream

Jeanwah wrote:

dunkman wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

And this is why I think you're not very socially aware, because everything is not about how cheap it is. It's about value, it's about integrity, it's about People before Profit. You don't get this at all.

the new pj album will cost the same as the others before it? your point?

social awareness is all well and good if you

a) have the time
b) have the inclination
c) have enough money in the bank to spend the extra

social awareness when you are a multimillionaire rock/pop musician is quite easy... but for some Joe Schmoe in Detroit who has been laid off and he has to feed his family then his social awareness becomes "where can i get bread the cheapest" he's not thinking "oh i better use O'Hennessy's Bakers... poor O'Hennessy and his Mercedes to run"

altruism is an ideal... not a reality for many millions of people.

It takes zero money to be socially aware. Be a good neighbor, look out for others rather than just yourself, take care extended family and friends. Sure, donating is a big part, but you don't have to have money to donate old things you were going to throw out, your time if you have it, or buy a raffle ticket. Attend a pre-party fundraiser and participate!!
Altruism is an ideal that everyone can participate, everyone.

you're right.
you also completely missed the point tho.
beyond that....someone watching every penny....where are they going to buy their groceries? where they can get the most for their $$$. many don't have the luxury of 'deciding' the most socially responsible place to buy their goods, their lucky they can actually afford to buy goods, put food on the table, pay their bills. that is all. funny too......many of these local mom and pop shops cannot afford to pay as well, or offer benefits, to many of their workers...where lots of these retailers, such as target, can. there are pluses and minues to all of em......thus why each time it's a CHOICE, if you are fortunate to be able to afford to make said choices....thus it is NOT simply black/white.....good/evil........that is all....


you earlier made it sounds like people who shop at target are not socially aware and the like. i actually consider myself quite 'aware'...and i still choose to shop target. i think they are a 'good' model for a big corp.


the reality is....you're right, we make these choices daily....but even you 'support' corps.....by buying a computer...clothing....whatever. sooooooooo many are corps. pearl jam is a corp! not all corps are bad!

quelquefois

slightofjeff wrote:

I think what he was referring to is that some people can't afford to shop anywhere but Wal-Mart. It's easy to pay more to shop at Mom and Pop when you have the means to do so.

Some people don't have that option. They have to go to Wal-Mart because it is the only way to get sufficient food on the table, and they can't worry about whether Wal-Mart is a big, evil corporation that eats children.

Jean Valjean stole bread to feed his family.
I'm not sure that shopping at Wal-Mart is much worse.

i would argue that there are not as many people who ACTUALLY can't afford to shop anywhere else. yes, there are some... but the people who are absolutely destitute and reliant on saving a dollar here or there are not the majority... like Jeanwah said... for most it's a matter of convenience... and saving that few extra dollars is just enough to make people turn a blind eye to what they are supporting.

dunkman

Jeanwah wrote:

dunkman wrote:

slightofjeff wrote:

I'm glad you brought up the gas argument. Because it is a precious commodity. And because excessive driving is bad for the environment and causes global warming.

Let's say I need the following items/services: Bread. Diapers. Sunscreen. A package of underwear (boxers not briefs). A new tire for my Prius. An oil change. Stamps. An Applebee's gift card. Photos developed. A haircut.

I could either: Drive to the grocery store. Drive to the clothing store. Drive to the tire store. Drive to the oil change place. Drive to the Post Office. Drive to Applebees. Drive to the Photomat. Drive to the barber.

OR ... I could drive to Super Target.

I could drive around for six hours, and waste ALL THAT GAS.

OR ... I could drive to Super Target.

I think I'm going to Super Target. It's the socially aware thing to do.

this post deserves an award of some kind... its that good!

Going to Super Target is not the socially aware thing to do, it's the most convenient. BIG DIFFERENCE.

and convenience is what the vast majority of people live their lifes by.... one store that has everything in it... and cheap... or do i spend all day driving to various family run stores and pay a higher premium?

none of these mom and pop stores contribute millions of dollars into the US philanthropic system, they just dont... all your doing is making one wee family business live a decent middle class lifestyle... Target, McDonalds, Nike.... they all pump millions into social programmes...

no giant corporations and you would have no more free school computers, no more free soccer shirts for homeless teams, no more african water cleansing equipment... why? because mom and pop store owners would just rake in the profits and live a high life... just like Mr Kellog did.. just like Mr Woolworth did...

slightofjeff

NothingIsEverything. wrote:

slightofjeff wrote:

I think what he was referring to is that some people can't afford to shop anywhere but Wal-Mart. It's easy to pay more to shop at Mom and Pop when you have the means to do so.

Some people don't have that option. They have to go to Wal-Mart because it is the only way to get sufficient food on the table, and they can't worry about whether Wal-Mart is a big, evil corporation that eats children.

Jean Valjean stole bread to feed his family.
I'm not sure that shopping at Wal-Mart is much worse.

i would argue that there are not as many people who ACTUALLY can't afford to shop anywhere else. yes, there are some... but the people who are absolutely destitute and reliant on saving a dollar here or there are not the majority... like Jeanwah said... for most it's a matter of convenience... and saving that few extra dollars is just enough to make people turn a blind eye to what they are supporting.

Oh, I agree. There are plenty of people (like me!!! ) who could afford to shop elsewhere and don't. But -- I don't know if you've looked at the news -- but a lot of people are losing their jobs, or are stuck in jobs that don't pay very well. Ed didn't just pull the lyrics of "Unemployable" out his ass.

There are some people, a growing number, who absolutely have to make every penny count. They aren't going to be buying organic arugula from Mom and Pop. They're going to be buying 99 cent iceberg lettuce at Wally World.

And God bless 'em.

Jeanwah

NothingIsEverything. wrote:

PissBottleMan wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

why was sony all these years ok, but target = not ok? this is where the great divide of understanding lies for me....

If I could briefly chime in here. I think many fans bought into this "us against them" ideology the band may have portrayed at certain points while not looking at the big picture.

We were screaming "hell no, we won't go"...while we bought their records produced by a large corporation.

We drank the fruit punch...but now, realize it was Kool-Aid all along.

PBM

i think there is also a difference between a band being contractually obligated to a record company, and willingly signing a contract with a sponsor when they didn't have to (debatable). that's where the tension is coming from... people who think they could have distributed on their own vs. people who see target as a means to an end... i think they could have done it on their own, but i suppose i begrudgingly understand.

Thank you!! This is exactly what I'm talking about D2D.

redrock

decides2dream wrote:

.many of these local mom and pop shops cannot afford to pay as well, or offer benefits, to many of their workers...where lots of these retailers, such as target, can.

OK.. not Target here in the UK but similar type of store (obviously not to the american scale), local greengrocer and a 17 year old looking for an evening/week-end/summer job. Applied at both shops, offered similar job at both. £3/hr more in pay, paid holidays, sick pay... or.... £3 less in pay, no paid holidays, no sick pay. Can you guess which was which?

Mom & Pop shop not automatically a more 'socially aware' place.

decides2dream

Jeanwah wrote:

dunkman wrote:

slightofjeff wrote:

I'm glad you brought up the gas argument. Because it is a precious commodity. And because excessive driving is bad for the environment and causes global warming.

Let's say I need the following items/services: Bread. Diapers. Sunscreen. A package of underwear (boxers not briefs). A new tire for my Prius. An oil change. Stamps. An Applebee's gift card. Photos developed. A haircut.

I could either: Drive to the grocery store. Drive to the clothing store. Drive to the tire store. Drive to the oil change place. Drive to the Post Office. Drive to Applebees. Drive to the Photomat. Drive to the barber.

OR ... I could drive to Super Target.

I could drive around for six hours, and waste ALL THAT GAS.

OR ... I could drive to Super Target.

I think I'm going to Super Target. It's the socially aware thing to do.

this post deserves an award of some kind... its that good!

Going to Super Target is not the socially aware thing to do, it's the most convenient. BIG DIFFERENCE.

actually, it CAN be...you just choose not to see that.
target employs millions...they pay better and offer more benefits than many other big box retailers....they also donate millions, each year, directly back to the communities who support them.
they also sell just about EVERYthing...so for those is rural/suburban areas, where pretty much HAVe to drive......it DOES save an enormous amount of gas and all that entails...by going to ONE store than a whole bunch. the fact that it is also convenient is simply an added bonus. add in the SAVINGS, for a great many of people that makes a HUGE difference.

i would think someone socially aware as yourself would also realize not all have the same means and thus have to do the best they can with what they have to get ahead? who do you see most in target? FAMILIES....lots of kids with em. target gives millions to schools. again, it all relates.......




PBM.....agreed.
i mean, hello? rage against the machine?
on a big corp label. just saw em a few years ago at a big corp. sponsored fest. thing is one CAN be about 'change' and still exist in all this. that's the point, i think even kat alluded to it. be IN the system to change the system. and the fact that you didn't see it in the past and only see it now...well, again, that's on you, not pj, no?

Jeanwah

slightofjeff wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

this post deserves an award of some kind... its that good!

Going to Super Target is not the socially aware thing to do, it's the most convenient. BIG DIFFERENCE.

So you would have me burn a week's worth of gas when a couple gallons would suffice? And spew all that exhaust into the environment?

Tsk, tsk.

I find it shocking that you're environmentally conscious but think Walmart's a good idea. Go look up what Walmart is contributing to our environment.

slightofjeff

redrock wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

.many of these local mom and pop shops cannot afford to pay as well, or offer benefits, to many of their workers...where lots of these retailers, such as target, can.

OK.. not Target here in the UK but similar type of store (obviously not to the american scale), local greengrocer and a 17 year old looking for an evening/week-end/summer job. Applied at both shops, offered similar job at both. £3/hr more in pay, paid holidays, sick pay... or.... £3 less in pay, no paid holidays, no sick pay. Can you guess which was which?

Mom & Pop shop not automatically a more 'socially aware' place.

Hell, Mom and Pop might be kidnapping kids and holding them hostage in the basement for all we know.

Gary Carter

this band has always wanted to become an independent band and now they have the freedom to do whatever they want. They don't have to kiss ass or play the major label rules. Would people bitch if they made a deal with subpop. Get over it, seriously. Sony is no different then target. You will still be able to buy it at your local indie store or on here or whatever else you get your cd's.

slightofjeff

Jeanwah wrote:

slightofjeff wrote:

So you would have me burn a week's worth of gas when a couple gallons would suffice? And spew all that exhaust into the environment?

Tsk, tsk.

I find it shocking that you're environmentally conscious but think Walmart's a good idea. Go look up what Walmart is contributing to our environment.

Watch out for falling prices! Timberrrrrrrr!

redrock

NothingIsEverything. wrote:

i would argue that there are not as many people who ACTUALLY can't afford to shop anywhere else. .

Maybe they could afford to shop elsewhere but that would then be eating into another part of their budget. So they decide to by the same type/quality/amount of food cheaper so they can spend the 'saving' on something else. A choice.

decides2dream

Jeanwah wrote:

NothingIsEverything. wrote:

PissBottleMan wrote:

If I could briefly chime in here. I think many fans bought into this "us against them" ideology the band may have portrayed at certain points while not looking at the big picture.

We were screaming "hell no, we won't go"...while we bought their records produced by a large corporation.

We drank the fruit punch...but now, realize it was Kool-Aid all along.

PBM

i think there is also a difference between a band being contractually obligated to a record company, and willingly signing a contract with a sponsor when they didn't have to (debatable). that's where the tension is coming from... people who think they could have distributed on their own vs. people who see target as a means to an end... i think they could have done it on their own, but i suppose i begrudgingly understand.

Thank you!! This is exactly what I'm talking about D2D.

i got that....and i also explained WHy i think them making that CHOICE actually says more GOOD about pj than bad. maybe they could've done it on their own...but they made this choice for a myriad of reasons, and not all soley about $$$...tho $$$ definitely comes into play, just as it has since day 1. to think otherwise, imo, is to operate outside of reality. if pj didn't want to make $$$ along with reaching a large audience, they'd never have signed with a record label. they made that choice years ago...now they willingly aligned themselves with a corp who will give them they kind of distribution they want AND also is more closely aligned with their ideals than the other corps out there.

PissBottleMan

Jeanwah...I really want to be on your side here, but the fact of the matter is that this group has always been about turning a profit.

They were on a major label, made videos for MTV, they were in Singles, appeared on VH1 Storytellers, etc.

It's perception versus reality.

I think we would like them to be like Fugazi and conduct a "do it yourself" attitude, but that's not the case. The difference is that they're deciding how they turn a profit now.

Perception versus reality.

PBM

Jeanwah

dunkman wrote:

slightofjeff wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

It takes zero money to be socially aware. Be a good neighbor, look out for others rather than just yourself, take care extended family and friends. Sure, donating is a big part, but you don't have to have money to donate old things you were going to throw out, your time if you have it, or buy a raffle ticket. Attend a pre-party fundraiser and participate!!
Altruism is an ideal that everyone can participate, everyone.

I think what he was referring to is that some people can't afford to shop anywhere but Wal-Mart. It's easy to pay more to shop at Mom and Pop when you have the means to do so.

Some people don't have that option. They have to go to Wal-Mart because it is the only way to get sufficient food on the table, and they can't worry about whether Wal-Mart is a big, evil corporation that eats children.

Jean Valjean stole bread to feed his family.
I'm not sure that shopping at Wal-Mart is much worse.

thats what i meant

nice Les Miserables reference in there as well

And you guys are telling me that you are one of these people? So you don't have the money to go to any EV or PJ shows in the near future then?
I do understand those who can't afford it. But many people can actually shop at a different store than walmart.

quelquefois

slightofjeff wrote:

NothingIsEverything. wrote:

i would argue that there are not as many people who ACTUALLY can't afford to shop anywhere else. yes, there are some... but the people who are absolutely destitute and reliant on saving a dollar here or there are not the majority... like Jeanwah said... for most it's a matter of convenience... and saving that few extra dollars is just enough to make people turn a blind eye to what they are supporting.

Oh, I agree. There are plenty of people (like me!!! ) who could afford to shop elsewhere and don't. But -- I don't know if you've looked at the news -- but a lot of people are losing their jobs, or are stuck in jobs that don't pay very well. Ed didn't just pull the lyrics of "Unemployable" out his ass.

There are some people, a growing number, who absolutely have to make every penny count. They aren't going to be buying organic arugula from Mom and Pop. They're going to be buying 99 cent iceberg lettuce at Wally World.

And God bless 'em.

people are losing their jobs?

i wonder if that has anything to do with the shady and predatory practices of big corporations? as for being stuck in a job that doesn't pay enough to live... Wal-Mart is MORE THAN HAPPY to help their employees fill out applications for social services such as food stamps, since they are well aware they don't pay a living wage.

i'm not saying people aren't in trouble... i'm just saying... there ARE people who could cancel their deluxe cable or eat out less, or any number of things... and use that cash to make ends meet in a socially-conscious way...

slightofjeff

decides2dream wrote:

actually, it CAN be...you just choose not to see that.

Jeanwah would rather sit on a throne (made of completely biodegradeable material, of course) and tell the rest of us how to live.

decides2dream

honestly, on some level i see this as


those who think obama....mccain...the same....


thinking target...walmart....any corp sponsorship/partnership....the same........

i don't see obama and the mccain as the same, at all...and i sure as shit don't see all corps as the same, not by a long shot. again, also why i think pj willingly chose their partner with great thought. hell, kelly curtis's comments to me really spells it out well, but even there some people found offense in his statements. asi said, it just illustrates so much how vastly different we all can see things. it's all good and interesting, i just hope that you don't let any of it interfere with your love of the music, b/c then you truly would be the one losing out.