jeanwah - don't mean to speak for norm...but i think the actual point was....so what?
one distributes, 1 sells...wtf is the difference if simply all corp giants are evil? why is it ok to be in bed with sony, a HUGE, multinational corp....but not ok to be with target, a national giant corp? is sony somehow *better* than target, and thus, ok? bottomline...pj was in bed with sony for 18 years..who then distributed their music to ALL those giant corps and all else, also why maintaining ownership of pjs masters. now pj is doing it on their OWN...forming their own partnerships...they are making aLL their own decisions, partnering with different manufacturers, distributors, etc....but all thru their own personal corp.....and made a deal with target, along with indie shops too, to sell em. again.....why is it *worse*...whereas i actually see it as *better* in a sense........? i think that is where the question lies...and correct me if i am wrong norm.
Because Pearl Jam wouldn't exist if they didn't have a record label. They had to have a label to succeed. They wanted success, and I'm glad they did. I don't condone Sony, but unless it's local musicians, you won't find an amateur band gunning for commercial success without a label. They had no choice if they wanted to make it big. Now they're big, they don't need Sony anymore. But they don't need one specific big-box retail giant to sell their music either. They needed the support of many in the past, if they want to sell their music, so yeah, they've always been associated with corporations, selling their music. Do they want to sell their music? Of course! But there is absolutely no reason they have to partner with one single corp. and have that corp name attached to theirs.
so it's ok to get in bed with corps when you HAVE to....but then you absolutely should not ever again?
again, i see what you're saying...but i disagree. they don't HAVe to...they WANT to....and asi said, i personally see it as a BETTER message. by choosing target they are aligning themselves with probably THE most philanthronpic corp of the big box retailers. they also made it clear they chose target b/c they still want to use/support indie stores, a big deal. by actually CHOOSING a corp partner, they are making a STATEMENT. they are REWARDing the corp they deem who does the BEST for the community. again, target is not perfect by any stretch, but their model is better than a lot of em out there. it's a conscious choice to say i am doing business with this corp b/c i think they are most aligned with my values. i think it's a GOOD thing. btw - their names are not *attached*.....it's a partnership for distribution only, for now...for this album...and who knows what will happen in the future? bottomline THIS is our current reality, we don't live in a bubble....i think pearl jam is consciously making choices that best align with their ideals b/c now they truly CAN.
we definitely see it differently overall......but it's good to understand your pov. thanks for answering.
And this is why I think you're not very socially aware, because everything is not about how cheap it is. It's about value, it's about integrity, it's about People before Profit. You don't get this at all.
the new pj album will cost the same as the others before it? your point?
social awareness is all well and good if you
a) have the time
b) have the inclination
c) have enough money in the bank to spend the extra
social awareness when you are a multimillionaire rock/pop musician is quite easy... but for some Joe Schmoe in Detroit who has been laid off and he has to feed his family then his social awareness becomes "where can i get bread the cheapest" he's not thinking "oh i better use O'Hennessy's Bakers... poor O'Hennessy and his Mercedes to run"
altruism is an ideal... not a reality for many millions of people.
It takes zero money to be socially aware. Be a good neighbor, look out for others rather than just yourself, take care extended family and friends. Sure, donating is a big part, but you don't have to have money to donate old things you were going to throw out, your time if you have it, or buy a raffle ticket. Attend a pre-party fundraiser and participate!!
Altruism is an ideal that everyone can participate, everyone.
thats an ideal... all social concepts are an ideal.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
why was sony all these years ok, but target = not ok? this is where the great divide of understanding lies for me....
If I could briefly chime in here. I think many fans bought into this "us against them" ideology the band may have portrayed at certain points while not looking at the big picture.
We were screaming "hell no, we won't go"...while we bought their records produced by a large corporation.
We drank the fruit punch...but now, realize it was Kool-Aid all along.
PBM
i think there is also a difference between a band being contractually obligated to a record company, and willingly signing a contract with a sponsor when they didn't have to (debatable). that's where the tension is coming from... people who think they could have distributed on their own vs. people who see target as a means to an end... i think they could have done it on their own, but i suppose i begrudgingly understand.
I'm glad you brought up the gas argument. Because it is a precious commodity. And because excessive driving is bad for the environment and causes global warming.
Let's say I need the following items/services: Bread. Diapers. Sunscreen. A package of underwear (boxers not briefs). A new tire for my Prius. An oil change. Stamps. An Applebee's gift card. Photos developed. A haircut.
I could either: Drive to the grocery store. Drive to the clothing store. Drive to the tire store. Drive to the oil change place. Drive to the Post Office. Drive to Applebees. Drive to the Photomat. Drive to the barber.
OR ... I could drive to Super Target.
I could drive around for six hours, and waste ALL THAT GAS.
OR ... I could drive to Super Target.
I think I'm going to Super Target. It's the socially aware thing to do.
this post deserves an award of some kind... its that good!
Going to Super Target is not the socially aware thing to do, it's the most convenient. BIG DIFFERENCE.
It takes zero money to be socially aware. Be a good neighbor, look out for others rather than just yourself, take care extended family and friends. Sure, donating is a big part, but you don't have to have money to donate old things you were going to throw out, your time if you have it, or buy a raffle ticket. Attend a pre-party fundraiser and participate!!
Altruism is an ideal that everyone can participate, everyone.
I think what he was referring to is that some people can't afford to shop anywhere but Wal-Mart. It's easy to pay more to shop at Mom and Pop when you have the means to do so.
Some people don't have that option. They have to go to Wal-Mart because it is the only way to get sufficient food on the table, and they can't worry about whether Wal-Mart is a big, evil corporation that eats children.
Jean Valjean stole bread to feed his family.
I'm not sure that shopping at Wal-Mart is much worse.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
And I personally think it's an excellent idea to work with people from the inside to seek change in our society. We can only try...and that's what activism is all about.
No but they still need a 'weight' behind them to continue to bring their music to the masses and, in the process, gain new fans. Sure there are examples of some 'doing it on their own' but how long will that 'novelty' last?
i completely understand your point... but there are also those of us who choose to live in cities and use public transport... the money we save by not owning a car goes to supporting local businesses...
it's not lost on me that having the extra money to spend on local or organic, or fairly traded goods is a privilege ... not everyone can do it of course, and i would never want someone to live outside their means... but every dollar we spend is political, whether we like it or not,... so when i've got the extra cash i always try to spend that money supporting something i can believe in...
Hell, I'd love for my city to invest in public transport. My job requires me to visit most every major U.S. city at least once a year. I love going to places like NYC or San Francisco, where I don't have to rent a car ... Every city should be like that. Makes life so much easier.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
It takes zero money to be socially aware. Be a good neighbor, look out for others rather than just yourself, take care extended family and friends. Sure, donating is a big part, but you don't have to have money to donate old things you were going to throw out, your time if you have it, or buy a raffle ticket. Attend a pre-party fundraiser and participate!!
Altruism is an ideal that everyone can participate, everyone.
I think what he was referring to is that some people can't afford to shop anywhere but Wal-Mart. It's easy to pay more to shop at Mom and Pop when you have the means to do so.
Some people don't have that option. They have to go to Wal-Mart because it is the only way to get sufficient food on the table, and they can't worry about whether Wal-Mart is a big, evil corporation that eats children.
Jean Valjean stole bread to feed his family.
I'm not sure that shopping at Wal-Mart is much worse.
thats what i meant
nice Les Miserables reference in there as well
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
It takes zero money to be socially aware. Be a good neighbor, look out for others rather than just yourself, take care extended family and friends. Sure, donating is a big part, but you don't have to have money to donate old things you were going to throw out, your time if you have it, or buy a raffle ticket. Attend a pre-party fundraiser and participate!!
Altruism is an ideal that everyone can participate, everyone.
I think what he was referring to is that some people can't afford to shop anywhere but Wal-Mart. It's easy to pay more to shop at Mom and Pop when you have the means to do so.
Some people don't have that option. They have to go to Wal-Mart because it is the only way to get sufficient food on the table, and they can't worry about whether Wal-Mart is a big, evil corporation that eats children.
Jean Valjean stole bread to feed his family.
I'm not sure that shopping at Wal-Mart is much worse.
thats what i meant
nice Les Miserables reference in there as well
Even we socially unaware cretins read something other than a coloring book every now and then
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
It takes zero money to be socially aware. Be a good neighbor, look out for others rather than just yourself, take care extended family and friends. Sure, donating is a big part, but you don't have to have money to donate old things you were going to throw out, your time if you have it, or buy a raffle ticket. Attend a pre-party fundraiser and participate!!
Altruism is an ideal that everyone can participate, everyone.
That's just being a good neighbour and friend. OK giving your old stuff to charity is going towards the socially aware, but real/active social awareness can be a full time job.
In our day and age, convenience is a huge factor in the way we live....
From the dawn of time, we have looked to 'convenience' - if not, we would still be in the stone age. You have a car, a phone, a pc, a fridge/freezer, a microwave, maybe a dishwasher.... convenience, saves time... Just like Target - all under one roof - saves time.
And this is why I think you're not very socially aware, because everything is not about how cheap it is. It's about value, it's about integrity, it's about People before Profit. You don't get this at all.
the new pj album will cost the same as the others before it? your point?
social awareness is all well and good if you
a) have the time
b) have the inclination
c) have enough money in the bank to spend the extra
social awareness when you are a multimillionaire rock/pop musician is quite easy... but for some Joe Schmoe in Detroit who has been laid off and he has to feed his family then his social awareness becomes "where can i get bread the cheapest" he's not thinking "oh i better use O'Hennessy's Bakers... poor O'Hennessy and his Mercedes to run"
altruism is an ideal... not a reality for many millions of people.
It takes zero money to be socially aware. Be a good neighbor, look out for others rather than just yourself, take care extended family and friends. Sure, donating is a big part, but you don't have to have money to donate old things you were going to throw out, your time if you have it, or buy a raffle ticket. Attend a pre-party fundraiser and participate!!
Altruism is an ideal that everyone can participate, everyone.
you're right.
you also completely missed the point tho.
beyond that....someone watching every penny....where are they going to buy their groceries? where they can get the most for their $$$. many don't have the luxury of 'deciding' the most socially responsible place to buy their goods, their lucky they can actually afford to buy goods, put food on the table, pay their bills. that is all. funny too......many of these local mom and pop shops cannot afford to pay as well, or offer benefits, to many of their workers...where lots of these retailers, such as target, can. there are pluses and minues to all of em......thus why each time it's a CHOICE, if you are fortunate to be able to afford to make said choices....thus it is NOT simply black/white.....good/evil........that is all....
you earlier made it sounds like people who shop at target are not socially aware and the like. i actually consider myself quite 'aware'...and i still choose to shop target. i think they are a 'good' model for a big corp.
the reality is....you're right, we make these choices daily....but even you 'support' corps.....by buying a computer...clothing....whatever. sooooooooo many are corps. pearl jam is a corp! not all corps are bad!
I think what he was referring to is that some people can't afford to shop anywhere but Wal-Mart. It's easy to pay more to shop at Mom and Pop when you have the means to do so.
Some people don't have that option. They have to go to Wal-Mart because it is the only way to get sufficient food on the table, and they can't worry about whether Wal-Mart is a big, evil corporation that eats children.
Jean Valjean stole bread to feed his family.
I'm not sure that shopping at Wal-Mart is much worse.
i would argue that there are not as many people who ACTUALLY can't afford to shop anywhere else. yes, there are some... but the people who are absolutely destitute and reliant on saving a dollar here or there are not the majority... like Jeanwah said... for most it's a matter of convenience... and saving that few extra dollars is just enough to make people turn a blind eye to what they are supporting.
I'm glad you brought up the gas argument. Because it is a precious commodity. And because excessive driving is bad for the environment and causes global warming.
Let's say I need the following items/services: Bread. Diapers. Sunscreen. A package of underwear (boxers not briefs). A new tire for my Prius. An oil change. Stamps. An Applebee's gift card. Photos developed. A haircut.
I could either: Drive to the grocery store. Drive to the clothing store. Drive to the tire store. Drive to the oil change place. Drive to the Post Office. Drive to Applebees. Drive to the Photomat. Drive to the barber.
OR ... I could drive to Super Target.
I could drive around for six hours, and waste ALL THAT GAS.
OR ... I could drive to Super Target.
I think I'm going to Super Target. It's the socially aware thing to do.
this post deserves an award of some kind... its that good!
Going to Super Target is not the socially aware thing to do, it's the most convenient. BIG DIFFERENCE.
and convenience is what the vast majority of people live their lifes by.... one store that has everything in it... and cheap... or do i spend all day driving to various family run stores and pay a higher premium?
none of these mom and pop stores contribute millions of dollars into the US philanthropic system, they just dont... all your doing is making one wee family business live a decent middle class lifestyle... Target, McDonalds, Nike.... they all pump millions into social programmes...
no giant corporations and you would have no more free school computers, no more free soccer shirts for homeless teams, no more african water cleansing equipment... why? because mom and pop store owners would just rake in the profits and live a high life... just like Mr Kellog did.. just like Mr Woolworth did...
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
I think what he was referring to is that some people can't afford to shop anywhere but Wal-Mart. It's easy to pay more to shop at Mom and Pop when you have the means to do so.
Some people don't have that option. They have to go to Wal-Mart because it is the only way to get sufficient food on the table, and they can't worry about whether Wal-Mart is a big, evil corporation that eats children.
Jean Valjean stole bread to feed his family.
I'm not sure that shopping at Wal-Mart is much worse.
i would argue that there are not as many people who ACTUALLY can't afford to shop anywhere else. yes, there are some... but the people who are absolutely destitute and reliant on saving a dollar here or there are not the majority... like Jeanwah said... for most it's a matter of convenience... and saving that few extra dollars is just enough to make people turn a blind eye to what they are supporting.
Oh, I agree. There are plenty of people (like me!!! ) who could afford to shop elsewhere and don't. But -- I don't know if you've looked at the news -- but a lot of people are losing their jobs, or are stuck in jobs that don't pay very well. Ed didn't just pull the lyrics of "Unemployable" out his ass.
There are some people, a growing number, who absolutely have to make every penny count. They aren't going to be buying organic arugula from Mom and Pop. They're going to be buying 99 cent iceberg lettuce at Wally World.
And God bless 'em.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
why was sony all these years ok, but target = not ok? this is where the great divide of understanding lies for me....
If I could briefly chime in here. I think many fans bought into this "us against them" ideology the band may have portrayed at certain points while not looking at the big picture.
We were screaming "hell no, we won't go"...while we bought their records produced by a large corporation.
We drank the fruit punch...but now, realize it was Kool-Aid all along.
PBM
i think there is also a difference between a band being contractually obligated to a record company, and willingly signing a contract with a sponsor when they didn't have to (debatable). that's where the tension is coming from... people who think they could have distributed on their own vs. people who see target as a means to an end... i think they could have done it on their own, but i suppose i begrudgingly understand.
Thank you!! This is exactly what I'm talking about D2D.
.many of these local mom and pop shops cannot afford to pay as well, or offer benefits, to many of their workers...where lots of these retailers, such as target, can.
OK.. not Target here in the UK but similar type of store (obviously not to the american scale), local greengrocer and a 17 year old looking for an evening/week-end/summer job. Applied at both shops, offered similar job at both. £3/hr more in pay, paid holidays, sick pay... or.... £3 less in pay, no paid holidays, no sick pay. Can you guess which was which?
Mom & Pop shop not automatically a more 'socially aware' place.
I'm glad you brought up the gas argument. Because it is a precious commodity. And because excessive driving is bad for the environment and causes global warming.
Let's say I need the following items/services: Bread. Diapers. Sunscreen. A package of underwear (boxers not briefs). A new tire for my Prius. An oil change. Stamps. An Applebee's gift card. Photos developed. A haircut.
I could either: Drive to the grocery store. Drive to the clothing store. Drive to the tire store. Drive to the oil change place. Drive to the Post Office. Drive to Applebees. Drive to the Photomat. Drive to the barber.
OR ... I could drive to Super Target.
I could drive around for six hours, and waste ALL THAT GAS.
OR ... I could drive to Super Target.
I think I'm going to Super Target. It's the socially aware thing to do.
this post deserves an award of some kind... its that good!
Going to Super Target is not the socially aware thing to do, it's the most convenient. BIG DIFFERENCE.
actually, it CAN be...you just choose not to see that.
target employs millions...they pay better and offer more benefits than many other big box retailers....they also donate millions, each year, directly back to the communities who support them.
they also sell just about EVERYthing...so for those is rural/suburban areas, where pretty much HAVe to drive......it DOES save an enormous amount of gas and all that entails...by going to ONE store than a whole bunch. the fact that it is also convenient is simply an added bonus. add in the SAVINGS, for a great many of people that makes a HUGE difference.
i would think someone socially aware as yourself would also realize not all have the same means and thus have to do the best they can with what they have to get ahead? who do you see most in target? FAMILIES....lots of kids with em. target gives millions to schools. again, it all relates.......
PBM.....agreed.
i mean, hello? rage against the machine?
on a big corp label. just saw em a few years ago at a big corp. sponsored fest. thing is one CAN be about 'change' and still exist in all this. that's the point, i think even kat alluded to it. be IN the system to change the system. and the fact that you didn't see it in the past and only see it now...well, again, that's on you, not pj, no?
.many of these local mom and pop shops cannot afford to pay as well, or offer benefits, to many of their workers...where lots of these retailers, such as target, can.
OK.. not Target here in the UK but similar type of store (obviously not to the american scale), local greengrocer and a 17 year old looking for an evening/week-end/summer job. Applied at both shops, offered similar job at both. £3/hr more in pay, paid holidays, sick pay... or.... £3 less in pay, no paid holidays, no sick pay. Can you guess which was which?
Mom & Pop shop not automatically a more 'socially aware' place.
Hell, Mom and Pop might be kidnapping kids and holding them hostage in the basement for all we know.
everybody wants the most they can possibly get
for the least they could possibly do
this band has always wanted to become an independent band and now they have the freedom to do whatever they want. They don't have to kiss ass or play the major label rules. Would people bitch if they made a deal with subpop. Get over it, seriously. Sony is no different then target. You will still be able to buy it at your local indie store or on here or whatever else you get your cd's.
Ron: I just don't feel like going out tonight
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
i would argue that there are not as many people who ACTUALLY can't afford to shop anywhere else. .
Maybe they could afford to shop elsewhere but that would then be eating into another part of their budget. So they decide to by the same type/quality/amount of food cheaper so they can spend the 'saving' on something else. A choice.
If I could briefly chime in here. I think many fans bought into this "us against them" ideology the band may have portrayed at certain points while not looking at the big picture.
We were screaming "hell no, we won't go"...while we bought their records produced by a large corporation.
We drank the fruit punch...but now, realize it was Kool-Aid all along.
PBM
i think there is also a difference between a band being contractually obligated to a record company, and willingly signing a contract with a sponsor when they didn't have to (debatable). that's where the tension is coming from... people who think they could have distributed on their own vs. people who see target as a means to an end... i think they could have done it on their own, but i suppose i begrudgingly understand.
Thank you!! This is exactly what I'm talking about D2D.
i got that....and i also explained WHy i think them making that CHOICE actually says more GOOD about pj than bad. maybe they could've done it on their own...but they made this choice for a myriad of reasons, and not all soley about $$$...tho $$$ definitely comes into play, just as it has since day 1. to think otherwise, imo, is to operate outside of reality. if pj didn't want to make $$$ along with reaching a large audience, they'd never have signed with a record label. they made that choice years ago...now they willingly aligned themselves with a corp who will give them they kind of distribution they want AND also is more closely aligned with their ideals than the other corps out there.
Jeanwah...I really want to be on your side here, but the fact of the matter is that this group has always been about turning a profit.
They were on a major label, made videos for MTV, they were in Singles, appeared on VH1 Storytellers, etc.
It's perception versus reality.
I think we would like them to be like Fugazi and conduct a "do it yourself" attitude, but that's not the case. The difference is that they're deciding how they turn a profit now.
Perception versus reality.
PBM
Post edited by PissBottleMan on
"We paced ourselves and we didn't rush through it and we tried to be as creative as our collective minds would let us be over some course of time instead of just trying to rush through a record"
It takes zero money to be socially aware. Be a good neighbor, look out for others rather than just yourself, take care extended family and friends. Sure, donating is a big part, but you don't have to have money to donate old things you were going to throw out, your time if you have it, or buy a raffle ticket. Attend a pre-party fundraiser and participate!!
Altruism is an ideal that everyone can participate, everyone.
I think what he was referring to is that some people can't afford to shop anywhere but Wal-Mart. It's easy to pay more to shop at Mom and Pop when you have the means to do so.
Some people don't have that option. They have to go to Wal-Mart because it is the only way to get sufficient food on the table, and they can't worry about whether Wal-Mart is a big, evil corporation that eats children.
Jean Valjean stole bread to feed his family.
I'm not sure that shopping at Wal-Mart is much worse.
thats what i meant
nice Les Miserables reference in there as well
And you guys are telling me that you are one of these people? So you don't have the money to go to any EV or PJ shows in the near future then?
I do understand those who can't afford it. But many people can actually shop at a different store than walmart.
i would argue that there are not as many people who ACTUALLY can't afford to shop anywhere else. yes, there are some... but the people who are absolutely destitute and reliant on saving a dollar here or there are not the majority... like Jeanwah said... for most it's a matter of convenience... and saving that few extra dollars is just enough to make people turn a blind eye to what they are supporting.
Oh, I agree. There are plenty of people (like me!!! ) who could afford to shop elsewhere and don't. But -- I don't know if you've looked at the news -- but a lot of people are losing their jobs, or are stuck in jobs that don't pay very well. Ed didn't just pull the lyrics of "Unemployable" out his ass.
There are some people, a growing number, who absolutely have to make every penny count. They aren't going to be buying organic arugula from Mom and Pop. They're going to be buying 99 cent iceberg lettuce at Wally World.
And God bless 'em.
people are losing their jobs?
i wonder if that has anything to do with the shady and predatory practices of big corporations? as for being stuck in a job that doesn't pay enough to live... Wal-Mart is MORE THAN HAPPY to help their employees fill out applications for social services such as food stamps, since they are well aware they don't pay a living wage.
i'm not saying people aren't in trouble... i'm just saying... there ARE people who could cancel their deluxe cable or eat out less, or any number of things... and use that cash to make ends meet in a socially-conscious way...
i don't see obama and the mccain as the same, at all...and i sure as shit don't see all corps as the same, not by a long shot. again, also why i think pj willingly chose their partner with great thought. hell, kelly curtis's comments to me really spells it out well, but even there some people found offense in his statements. asi said, it just illustrates so much how vastly different we all can see things. it's all good and interesting, i just hope that you don't let any of it interfere with your love of the music, b/c then you truly would be the one losing out.
Comments
so it's ok to get in bed with corps when you HAVE to....but then you absolutely should not ever again?
again, i see what you're saying...but i disagree. they don't HAVe to...they WANT to....and asi said, i personally see it as a BETTER message. by choosing target they are aligning themselves with probably THE most philanthronpic corp of the big box retailers. they also made it clear they chose target b/c they still want to use/support indie stores, a big deal. by actually CHOOSING a corp partner, they are making a STATEMENT. they are REWARDing the corp they deem who does the BEST for the community. again, target is not perfect by any stretch, but their model is better than a lot of em out there. it's a conscious choice to say i am doing business with this corp b/c i think they are most aligned with my values. i think it's a GOOD thing. btw - their names are not *attached*.....it's a partnership for distribution only, for now...for this album...and who knows what will happen in the future? bottomline THIS is our current reality, we don't live in a bubble....i think pearl jam is consciously making choices that best align with their ideals b/c now they truly CAN.
we definitely see it differently overall......but it's good to understand your pov. thanks for answering.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
thats an ideal... all social concepts are an ideal.
i think there is also a difference between a band being contractually obligated to a record company, and willingly signing a contract with a sponsor when they didn't have to (debatable). that's where the tension is coming from... people who think they could have distributed on their own vs. people who see target as a means to an end... i think they could have done it on their own, but i suppose i begrudgingly understand.
I think what he was referring to is that some people can't afford to shop anywhere but Wal-Mart. It's easy to pay more to shop at Mom and Pop when you have the means to do so.
Some people don't have that option. They have to go to Wal-Mart because it is the only way to get sufficient food on the table, and they can't worry about whether Wal-Mart is a big, evil corporation that eats children.
Jean Valjean stole bread to feed his family.
I'm not sure that shopping at Wal-Mart is much worse.
for the least they could possibly do
this too
No but they still need a 'weight' behind them to continue to bring their music to the masses and, in the process, gain new fans. Sure there are examples of some 'doing it on their own' but how long will that 'novelty' last?
That retail giant is one of the avenues they chose.....
I would rather see PJ at Target for years to come than doing it on their own for a few years and dying a death....
Hell, I'd love for my city to invest in public transport. My job requires me to visit most every major U.S. city at least once a year. I love going to places like NYC or San Francisco, where I don't have to rent a car ... Every city should be like that. Makes life so much easier.
for the least they could possibly do
So you would have me burn a week's worth of gas when a couple gallons would suffice? And spew all that exhaust into the environment?
Tsk, tsk.
for the least they could possibly do
thats what i meant
nice Les Miserables reference in there as well
Even we socially unaware cretins read something other than a coloring book every now and then
for the least they could possibly do
That's just being a good neighbour and friend. OK giving your old stuff to charity is going towards the socially aware, but real/active social awareness can be a full time job.
In our day and age, convenience is a huge factor in the way we live....
From the dawn of time, we have looked to 'convenience' - if not, we would still be in the stone age. You have a car, a phone, a pc, a fridge/freezer, a microwave, maybe a dishwasher.... convenience, saves time... Just like Target - all under one roof - saves time.
you're right.
you also completely missed the point tho.
beyond that....someone watching every penny....where are they going to buy their groceries? where they can get the most for their $$$. many don't have the luxury of 'deciding' the most socially responsible place to buy their goods, their lucky they can actually afford to buy goods, put food on the table, pay their bills. that is all. funny too......many of these local mom and pop shops cannot afford to pay as well, or offer benefits, to many of their workers...where lots of these retailers, such as target, can. there are pluses and minues to all of em......thus why each time it's a CHOICE, if you are fortunate to be able to afford to make said choices....thus it is NOT simply black/white.....good/evil........that is all....
you earlier made it sounds like people who shop at target are not socially aware and the like. i actually consider myself quite 'aware'...and i still choose to shop target. i think they are a 'good' model for a big corp.
the reality is....you're right, we make these choices daily....but even you 'support' corps.....by buying a computer...clothing....whatever. sooooooooo many are corps. pearl jam is a corp! not all corps are bad!
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
i would argue that there are not as many people who ACTUALLY can't afford to shop anywhere else. yes, there are some... but the people who are absolutely destitute and reliant on saving a dollar here or there are not the majority... like Jeanwah said... for most it's a matter of convenience... and saving that few extra dollars is just enough to make people turn a blind eye to what they are supporting.
and convenience is what the vast majority of people live their lifes by.... one store that has everything in it... and cheap... or do i spend all day driving to various family run stores and pay a higher premium?
none of these mom and pop stores contribute millions of dollars into the US philanthropic system, they just dont... all your doing is making one wee family business live a decent middle class lifestyle... Target, McDonalds, Nike.... they all pump millions into social programmes...
no giant corporations and you would have no more free school computers, no more free soccer shirts for homeless teams, no more african water cleansing equipment... why? because mom and pop store owners would just rake in the profits and live a high life... just like Mr Kellog did.. just like Mr Woolworth did...
Oh, I agree. There are plenty of people (like me!!!
There are some people, a growing number, who absolutely have to make every penny count. They aren't going to be buying organic arugula from Mom and Pop. They're going to be buying 99 cent iceberg lettuce at Wally World.
And God bless 'em.
for the least they could possibly do
OK.. not Target here in the UK but similar type of store (obviously not to the american scale), local greengrocer and a 17 year old looking for an evening/week-end/summer job. Applied at both shops, offered similar job at both. £3/hr more in pay, paid holidays, sick pay... or.... £3 less in pay, no paid holidays, no sick pay. Can you guess which was which?
Mom & Pop shop not automatically a more 'socially aware' place.
actually, it CAN be...you just choose not to see that.
target employs millions...they pay better and offer more benefits than many other big box retailers....they also donate millions, each year, directly back to the communities who support them.
they also sell just about EVERYthing...so for those is rural/suburban areas, where pretty much HAVe to drive......it DOES save an enormous amount of gas and all that entails...by going to ONE store than a whole bunch. the fact that it is also convenient is simply an added bonus. add in the SAVINGS, for a great many of people that makes a HUGE difference.
i would think someone socially aware as yourself would also realize not all have the same means and thus have to do the best they can with what they have to get ahead? who do you see most in target? FAMILIES....lots of kids with em. target gives millions to schools. again, it all relates.......
PBM.....agreed.
i mean, hello? rage against the machine?
on a big corp label. just saw em a few years ago at a big corp. sponsored fest. thing is one CAN be about 'change' and still exist in all this. that's the point, i think even kat alluded to it. be IN the system to change the system. and the fact that you didn't see it in the past and only see it now...well, again, that's on you, not pj, no?
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Hell, Mom and Pop might be kidnapping kids and holding them hostage in the basement for all we know.
for the least they could possibly do
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
Watch out for falling prices! Timberrrrrrrr!
for the least they could possibly do
Maybe they could afford to shop elsewhere but that would then be eating into another part of their budget. So they decide to by the same type/quality/amount of food cheaper so they can spend the 'saving' on something else. A choice.
i got that....and i also explained WHy i think them making that CHOICE actually says more GOOD about pj than bad. maybe they could've done it on their own...but they made this choice for a myriad of reasons, and not all soley about $$$...tho $$$ definitely comes into play, just as it has since day 1. to think otherwise, imo, is to operate outside of reality. if pj didn't want to make $$$ along with reaching a large audience, they'd never have signed with a record label. they made that choice years ago...now they willingly aligned themselves with a corp who will give them they kind of distribution they want AND also is more closely aligned with their ideals than the other corps out there.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
They were on a major label, made videos for MTV, they were in Singles, appeared on VH1 Storytellers, etc.
It's perception versus reality.
I think we would like them to be like Fugazi and conduct a "do it yourself" attitude, but that's not the case. The difference is that they're deciding how they turn a profit now.
Perception versus reality.
PBM
Wishlist Foundation: http://wishlistfoundation.org
I do understand those who can't afford it. But many people can actually shop at a different store than walmart.
people are losing their jobs?
i wonder if that has anything to do with the shady and predatory practices of big corporations? as for being stuck in a job that doesn't pay enough to live... Wal-Mart is MORE THAN HAPPY to help their employees fill out applications for social services such as food stamps, since they are well aware they don't pay a living wage.
i'm not saying people aren't in trouble... i'm just saying... there ARE people who could cancel their deluxe cable or eat out less, or any number of things... and use that cash to make ends meet in a socially-conscious way...
Jeanwah would rather sit on a throne (made of completely biodegradeable material, of course) and tell the rest of us how to live.
for the least they could possibly do
those who think obama....mccain...the same....
thinking target...walmart....any corp sponsorship/partnership....the same........
i don't see obama and the mccain as the same, at all...and i sure as shit don't see all corps as the same, not by a long shot. again, also why i think pj willingly chose their partner with great thought. hell, kelly curtis's comments to me really spells it out well, but even there some people found offense in his statements. asi said, it just illustrates so much how vastly different we all can see things. it's all good and interesting, i just hope that you don't let any of it interfere with your love of the music, b/c then you truly would be the one losing out.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow