GOP

cincybearcat said:

Cropduster-80 said:

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

people are AGAINST education now? wtf?

Well I do think it would be helpful if we could all be open and honest about some things.  This all stems from people thinking their kids are going to be made into some kinda far leaning liberal through controlled information and pushing by teachers.

The reality is... and I know this is a shocker... their are teachers/prof that push their agendas on kids.  There will be other kids and groups doing that as well.  I do think profs can get out of line, but in reality all of this is good as it challenges current assumptions and likely does result in some changes of opinion/beliefs.  I think the fact the the left often tries to dismiss this idea of profs pushing their beliefs is disingenuous.  If you don't think it's happening, you just aren't paying attention.  And then the right chooses to demonize instead of believe it's ok to be exposed to a diversity of thought.

Another example - I thought De Santis was being a complete ass and florida really dumb about banning math textbooks....then I saw some of the charts and questions in it. While not terrible, they were certainly placed there to try and develop or shift bias.  It isn't really that hard to see.  So as usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle on a lot of things but we'd rather demonize everything.  Some people fully deserve being demonized...but it's not as many as we all seem to think. 

Since STEM is usually the same types of skills, devaluing science in particular has produced a generation (already) of people weak in science, technology, and math fields.

evolution, climate sciences, bio technology  etc.  once you start picking and choosing what science you think is fake or wrong it undermines everything as you are devaluing the entire premise of which science is founded.  Science funding from the government is way way down too, so the government isn’t investing either and when they do there are strict constraints on what these scientists can even research 

To say professors are pushing a liberal agenda to me is a stretch.  Pushing an education agenda maybe or an academic freedom agenda sure.  I mean seriously a college professor discussing climate change will absolutely be accused of pushing an agenda, they are and it’s not a political one. It’s a science agenda 

I wonder, what is the political leaning of the majority of college professors? And then, are college professors more or less active politically? 

It’s just natural that it’s going to weave it’s way into the classroom. Denying it is a problem. And I’m not talking about science. 

Cropduster-80 said:

cincybearcat said:

Cropduster-80 said:

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

people are AGAINST education now? wtf?

Well I do think it would be helpful if we could all be open and honest about some things.  This all stems from people thinking their kids are going to be made into some kinda far leaning liberal through controlled information and pushing by teachers.

The reality is... and I know this is a shocker... their are teachers/prof that push their agendas on kids.  There will be other kids and groups doing that as well.  I do think profs can get out of line, but in reality all of this is good as it challenges current assumptions and likely does result in some changes of opinion/beliefs.  I think the fact the the left often tries to dismiss this idea of profs pushing their beliefs is disingenuous.  If you don't think it's happening, you just aren't paying attention.  And then the right chooses to demonize instead of believe it's ok to be exposed to a diversity of thought.

Another example - I thought De Santis was being a complete ass and florida really dumb about banning math textbooks....then I saw some of the charts and questions in it. While not terrible, they were certainly placed there to try and develop or shift bias.  It isn't really that hard to see.  So as usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle on a lot of things but we'd rather demonize everything.  Some people fully deserve being demonized...but it's not as many as we all seem to think. 

Since STEM is usually the same types of skills, devaluing science in particular has produced a generation (already) of people weak in science, technology, and math fields.

evolution, climate sciences, bio technology  etc.  once you start picking and choosing what science you think is fake or wrong it undermines everything as you are devaluing the entire premise of which science is founded.  Science funding from the government is way way down too, so the government isn’t investing either and when they do there are strict constraints on what these scientists can even research 

To say professors are pushing a liberal agenda to me is a stretch.  Pushing an education agenda maybe or an academic freedom agenda sure.  I mean seriously a college professor discussing climate change will absolutely be accused of pushing an agenda, they are and it’s not a political one. It’s a science agenda 

I wonder, what is the political leaning of the majority of college professors? And then, are college professors more or less active politically? 

It’s just natural that it’s going to weave it’s way into the classroom. Denying it is a problem. And I’m not talking about science. 

I would say that’s true. College professors are majority democrats.  So is the college educated population at large.  Jim Bob the tow truck driver isn’t qualified to teach biochemistry.  If he was, he’d also be more likely to be a democrat 

I just don’t see how that is the liberals fault or that who they vote for means they teach with that much of an obvious political agenda.

I also don’t believe anyone is being brainwashed at college. If you are that smart and are learning all of the critical thinking skills college requires the fact your professor went to a BLM protest isn’t changing your mind whatever it is. In a first grade class, sure I would agree

cincybearcat said:

Cropduster-80 said:

cincybearcat said:

Cropduster-80 said:

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

people are AGAINST education now? wtf?

Well I do think it would be helpful if we could all be open and honest about some things.  This all stems from people thinking their kids are going to be made into some kinda far leaning liberal through controlled information and pushing by teachers.

The reality is... and I know this is a shocker... their are teachers/prof that push their agendas on kids.  There will be other kids and groups doing that as well.  I do think profs can get out of line, but in reality all of this is good as it challenges current assumptions and likely does result in some changes of opinion/beliefs.  I think the fact the the left often tries to dismiss this idea of profs pushing their beliefs is disingenuous.  If you don't think it's happening, you just aren't paying attention.  And then the right chooses to demonize instead of believe it's ok to be exposed to a diversity of thought.

Another example - I thought De Santis was being a complete ass and florida really dumb about banning math textbooks....then I saw some of the charts and questions in it. While not terrible, they were certainly placed there to try and develop or shift bias.  It isn't really that hard to see.  So as usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle on a lot of things but we'd rather demonize everything.  Some people fully deserve being demonized...but it's not as many as we all seem to think. 

Since STEM is usually the same types of skills, devaluing science in particular has produced a generation (already) of people weak in science, technology, and math fields.

evolution, climate sciences, bio technology  etc.  once you start picking and choosing what science you think is fake or wrong it undermines everything as you are devaluing the entire premise of which science is founded.  Science funding from the government is way way down too, so the government isn’t investing either and when they do there are strict constraints on what these scientists can even research 

To say professors are pushing a liberal agenda to me is a stretch.  Pushing an education agenda maybe or an academic freedom agenda sure.  I mean seriously a college professor discussing climate change will absolutely be accused of pushing an agenda, they are and it’s not a political one. It’s a science agenda 

I wonder, what is the political leaning of the majority of college professors? And then, are college professors more or less active politically? 

It’s just natural that it’s going to weave it’s way into the classroom. Denying it is a problem. And I’m not talking about science. 

I would say that’s true. College professors are majority democrats.  So is the college educated population at large.  Jim Bob the tow truck driver isn’t qualified to teach biochemistry.  If he was, he’d also be more likely to be a democrat 

I just don’t see how that is the liberals fault or that who they vote for means they teach with that much of an obvious political agenda.

I also don’t believe anyone is being brainwashed at college. If you are that smart and are learning all of the critical thinking skills college requires the fact your professor went to a BLM protest isn’t changing your mind whatever it is. In a first grade class, sure I would agree

When did I say people were brainwashed? 

HughFreakingDillon said:

Cropduster-80 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

OnWis97 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

it's funny to me that people see education as an indoctrination into a certain political ideology.....the same people that go to church and/or wear MAGA gear. oh, the irony. 

It's another projection..."brainwashed." I know this can be a sensitive topic but I can't think of anything as brainwashing as religion. Except maybe alt-right media.

The education thing is interesting. I was a political science major and I don't remember anyone really pushing anything on me. But 1) as a liberal, I was already there any maybe coming from my echo chambers, I didn't notice (I'm being 89% sarcastic) and 2) I probably don't even grasp the conservative threshold for "indoctrination." I took a class called "comparative politics" and we studied like four different areas. And we learned about the installation of Pinochet in Chile and the US's role and preference for him over socialism. It was useful, and I suppose it may have been included there because some tenure-protected marxist professor wanted to take the United States down a peg. But as far as I know everything I learned actually happened and it's one of the specific parts of those political science classes I recall. #indoctrinated.

The other thing about education is that there's some blowback from decades of high schools and pop culture telling kids that college was the ideal. And I think there was (still is?) and unspoken but obvious shaming of trade schools, the military and, especially, just getting a job. So every time I see social media posts about valuing trade schools (a good message in itself) the majority of responses are pouncing on leaning a useful skill instead of spending four years getting drunk and getting a degree in 17th Century Albanian Literature. I think some of it is a bit of fighting back on the old "college or you're a loser" narrative, but really, is it OK for people to just do whatever's right for them. I don't think it's usually even poltical (though there is the occasional "liberal indoctrination" angle, to be sure). But many people really believe we should all either be going to trade schools or if we want to be going to college we must spend two years at community college to save money (and everything else is wrong). It's all crap and maybe it used to just be college kids looking down at everyone but we're now all looking down at each other. 

I'll be honest, I feel into that trap, as well, coming from a family of liberal arts bachelors degrees. I'm fortunate that this was the actual right path for me.  Some people learned the hard way (i.e., two years of tuition before dropping out). And you know something, socially, I'd have been hit hard staying home and doing two years of CC. Four years at a big University was absolutely the right thing for me. So sometimes the high-and-mighty return-of-shaming pisses me off. What I'd really like to see is 1) high schools, parents, etc. letting kids know all their options and 2) all of us just letting each other do what's best for us. It might be CC...the military...expensive Ivy League school...whatever.

I will also go to my grave believing that there is value to a well-rounded liberal arts* education along with the "college experience" (which can be had with little/no drinking). But I also understand that that's not best for everyone and the rising cost drives a need to be a bit more utilitarian with these plans.

I think college / high-profile college is still valued in an unfortunate way, as evidenced by the scandal where 50 people (including a couple of celebrities) bribed their kids into high-profile schools. If you're super rich, why isn't it OK for your kid to go to Fresno State or the University of Iowa? Does it have to be Northwestern, USC or Ivy? I think that's an indication that the elitism thing is not totally without merit. And what if a CEO's kid wants to become a plumber? Is that wrong? I think most of us kinda think it is, but why?


*Liberal arts is an unfortunate name that I supect gives a little extra push to the anti-education crowd.

tell me about it. (I know this wasn't the meat of your post, but it struck me because....) last night was my youngest's confirmation mass. when my wife and I got married, and didn't have kids yet, we agreed to raise them catholic (well, not me, her for that portion). Fuck, I just found myself getting angrier and angrier as I sat there during mass, listening to the arch bishop blather on and on about peace and love and husbands and wives and all the bullshit "feel good" shit that comprises about 5% of organized religion (historically speaking). luckily both my kids are already wise to it. they did it for their mom. but this is likely where it stops (and my wife is fine with that-more of a "let's keep the door open for them should they so choose that path). I like to think it has to do with us having a balance in their parenting. But I was also around their age when my lightbulb went on as well. so who knows. 

You just described my life right down to the confirmation mass. My oldest has his is this weekend 

my wife turned to me during the reception and said "you just can't keep your disdain hidden, can you?". WTF. I'm participating in this sham, aren't I? I could easily have stood up and shouted "fuck you colonial murderers" at the arch bishop and the priest and walked out. Obviously I wouldn't do that to my family, but shit...I was looking around the room thinking "how can you people believe in this shit?". 

What I find interesting is that the demographic of (at least in our city) parishioners has changed dramatically since I was a kid. It's fewer and fewer white people and more and more immigrants (just an observation). Hell, the last two priests at this parish have been guys from africa no one can understand because of their thick accents. Super nice and jovial guys though. 

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

cincybearcat said:

Cropduster-80 said:

cincybearcat said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

people are AGAINST education now? wtf?

Well I do think it would be helpful if we could all be open and honest about some things.  This all stems from people thinking their kids are going to be made into some kinda far leaning liberal through controlled information and pushing by teachers.

The reality is... and I know this is a shocker... their are teachers/prof that push their agendas on kids.  There will be other kids and groups doing that as well.  I do think profs can get out of line, but in reality all of this is good as it challenges current assumptions and likely does result in some changes of opinion/beliefs.  I think the fact the the left often tries to dismiss this idea of profs pushing their beliefs is disingenuous.  If you don't think it's happening, you just aren't paying attention.  And then the right chooses to demonize instead of believe it's ok to be exposed to a diversity of thought.

Another example - I thought De Santis was being a complete ass and florida really dumb about banning math textbooks....then I saw some of the charts and questions in it. While not terrible, they were certainly placed there to try and develop or shift bias.  It isn't really that hard to see.  So as usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle on a lot of things but we'd rather demonize everything.  Some people fully deserve being demonized...but it's not as many as we all seem to think. 

Since STEM is usually the same types of skills, devaluing science in particular has produced a generation (already) of people weak in science, technology, and math fields.

evolution, climate sciences, bio technology  etc.  once you start picking and choosing what science you think is fake or wrong it undermines everything as you are devaluing the entire premise of which science is founded.  Science funding from the government is way way down too, so the government isn’t investing either and when they do there are strict constraints on what these scientists can even research 

To say professors are pushing a liberal agenda to me is a stretch.  Pushing an education agenda maybe or an academic freedom agenda sure.  I mean seriously a college professor discussing climate change will absolutely be accused of pushing an agenda, they are and it’s not a political one. It’s a science agenda 

I wonder, what is the political leaning of the majority of college professors? And then, are college professors more or less active politically? 

It’s just natural that it’s going to weave it’s way into the classroom. Denying it is a problem. And I’m not talking about science. 

I would say that’s true. College professors are majority democrats.  So is the college educated population at large.  Jim Bob the tow truck driver isn’t qualified to teach biochemistry.  If he was, he’d also be more likely to be a democrat 

I just don’t see how that is the liberals fault or that who they vote for means they teach with that much of an obvious political agenda.

When you work in higher ed or even a corporation, you are much more likely to interact with people that don't look like you, follow the same religion and have materially different experiences than you.  So you are less likely to fear or be turned off by the 'other' because you start to see people as individuals rather than part of a group.  You can call that liberal, overly tolerant, or whatever but I think that's the root of the differences between the educated and the ones with little to no post graduate education and who sort of stay in the same circle their whole lives.  

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Cropduster-80 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

OnWis97 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

it's funny to me that people see education as an indoctrination into a certain political ideology.....the same people that go to church and/or wear MAGA gear. oh, the irony. 

It's another projection..."brainwashed." I know this can be a sensitive topic but I can't think of anything as brainwashing as religion. Except maybe alt-right media.

The education thing is interesting. I was a political science major and I don't remember anyone really pushing anything on me. But 1) as a liberal, I was already there any maybe coming from my echo chambers, I didn't notice (I'm being 89% sarcastic) and 2) I probably don't even grasp the conservative threshold for "indoctrination." I took a class called "comparative politics" and we studied like four different areas. And we learned about the installation of Pinochet in Chile and the US's role and preference for him over socialism. It was useful, and I suppose it may have been included there because some tenure-protected marxist professor wanted to take the United States down a peg. But as far as I know everything I learned actually happened and it's one of the specific parts of those political science classes I recall. #indoctrinated.

The other thing about education is that there's some blowback from decades of high schools and pop culture telling kids that college was the ideal. And I think there was (still is?) and unspoken but obvious shaming of trade schools, the military and, especially, just getting a job. So every time I see social media posts about valuing trade schools (a good message in itself) the majority of responses are pouncing on leaning a useful skill instead of spending four years getting drunk and getting a degree in 17th Century Albanian Literature. I think some of it is a bit of fighting back on the old "college or you're a loser" narrative, but really, is it OK for people to just do whatever's right for them. I don't think it's usually even poltical (though there is the occasional "liberal indoctrination" angle, to be sure). But many people really believe we should all either be going to trade schools or if we want to be going to college we must spend two years at community college to save money (and everything else is wrong). It's all crap and maybe it used to just be college kids looking down at everyone but we're now all looking down at each other. 

I'll be honest, I feel into that trap, as well, coming from a family of liberal arts bachelors degrees. I'm fortunate that this was the actual right path for me.  Some people learned the hard way (i.e., two years of tuition before dropping out). And you know something, socially, I'd have been hit hard staying home and doing two years of CC. Four years at a big University was absolutely the right thing for me. So sometimes the high-and-mighty return-of-shaming pisses me off. What I'd really like to see is 1) high schools, parents, etc. letting kids know all their options and 2) all of us just letting each other do what's best for us. It might be CC...the military...expensive Ivy League school...whatever.

I will also go to my grave believing that there is value to a well-rounded liberal arts* education along with the "college experience" (which can be had with little/no drinking). But I also understand that that's not best for everyone and the rising cost drives a need to be a bit more utilitarian with these plans.

I think college / high-profile college is still valued in an unfortunate way, as evidenced by the scandal where 50 people (including a couple of celebrities) bribed their kids into high-profile schools. If you're super rich, why isn't it OK for your kid to go to Fresno State or the University of Iowa? Does it have to be Northwestern, USC or Ivy? I think that's an indication that the elitism thing is not totally without merit. And what if a CEO's kid wants to become a plumber? Is that wrong? I think most of us kinda think it is, but why?


*Liberal arts is an unfortunate name that I supect gives a little extra push to the anti-education crowd.

tell me about it. (I know this wasn't the meat of your post, but it struck me because....) last night was my youngest's confirmation mass. when my wife and I got married, and didn't have kids yet, we agreed to raise them catholic (well, not me, her for that portion). Fuck, I just found myself getting angrier and angrier as I sat there during mass, listening to the arch bishop blather on and on about peace and love and husbands and wives and all the bullshit "feel good" shit that comprises about 5% of organized religion (historically speaking). luckily both my kids are already wise to it. they did it for their mom. but this is likely where it stops (and my wife is fine with that-more of a "let's keep the door open for them should they so choose that path). I like to think it has to do with us having a balance in their parenting. But I was also around their age when my lightbulb went on as well. so who knows. 

You just described my life right down to the confirmation mass. My oldest has his is this weekend 

my wife turned to me during the reception and said "you just can't keep your disdain hidden, can you?". WTF. I'm participating in this sham, aren't I? I could easily have stood up and shouted "fuck you colonial murderers" at the arch bishop and the priest and walked out. Obviously I wouldn't do that to my family, but shit...I was looking around the room thinking "how can you people believe in this shit?". 

What I find interesting is that the demographic of (at least in our city) parishioners has changed dramatically since I was a kid. It's fewer and fewer white people and more and more immigrants (just an observation). Hell, the last two priests at this parish have been guys from africa no one can understand because of their thick accents. Super nice and jovial guys though. 

Speaking as someone who was brought up in a heavy Catholic home, I'm not sure the majority of the people around you believe in Catholic faith literally.  I bet less than 20% of Catholics believe in trans-substantiation and that is a fundamental part of the Mass.  For many, there's some comfort in being involved in a routine that you have been engaged in for most of your life.  And they appreciate the community and other aspects of the Church or even church (small c).  I also think the actual teachings of Jesus, whether you think he is a man or the Son of God, are universal and there is some value in thinking about them often.  I say this as someone who hasn't been to Mass in a few years. 

OnWis97 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Cropduster-80 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

OnWis97 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

it's funny to me that people see education as an indoctrination into a certain political ideology.....the same people that go to church and/or wear MAGA gear. oh, the irony. 

It's another projection..."brainwashed." I know this can be a sensitive topic but I can't think of anything as brainwashing as religion. Except maybe alt-right media.

The education thing is interesting. I was a political science major and I don't remember anyone really pushing anything on me. But 1) as a liberal, I was already there any maybe coming from my echo chambers, I didn't notice (I'm being 89% sarcastic) and 2) I probably don't even grasp the conservative threshold for "indoctrination." I took a class called "comparative politics" and we studied like four different areas. And we learned about the installation of Pinochet in Chile and the US's role and preference for him over socialism. It was useful, and I suppose it may have been included there because some tenure-protected marxist professor wanted to take the United States down a peg. But as far as I know everything I learned actually happened and it's one of the specific parts of those political science classes I recall. #indoctrinated.

The other thing about education is that there's some blowback from decades of high schools and pop culture telling kids that college was the ideal. And I think there was (still is?) and unspoken but obvious shaming of trade schools, the military and, especially, just getting a job. So every time I see social media posts about valuing trade schools (a good message in itself) the majority of responses are pouncing on leaning a useful skill instead of spending four years getting drunk and getting a degree in 17th Century Albanian Literature. I think some of it is a bit of fighting back on the old "college or you're a loser" narrative, but really, is it OK for people to just do whatever's right for them. I don't think it's usually even poltical (though there is the occasional "liberal indoctrination" angle, to be sure). But many people really believe we should all either be going to trade schools or if we want to be going to college we must spend two years at community college to save money (and everything else is wrong). It's all crap and maybe it used to just be college kids looking down at everyone but we're now all looking down at each other. 

I'll be honest, I feel into that trap, as well, coming from a family of liberal arts bachelors degrees. I'm fortunate that this was the actual right path for me.  Some people learned the hard way (i.e., two years of tuition before dropping out). And you know something, socially, I'd have been hit hard staying home and doing two years of CC. Four years at a big University was absolutely the right thing for me. So sometimes the high-and-mighty return-of-shaming pisses me off. What I'd really like to see is 1) high schools, parents, etc. letting kids know all their options and 2) all of us just letting each other do what's best for us. It might be CC...the military...expensive Ivy League school...whatever.

I will also go to my grave believing that there is value to a well-rounded liberal arts* education along with the "college experience" (which can be had with little/no drinking). But I also understand that that's not best for everyone and the rising cost drives a need to be a bit more utilitarian with these plans.

I think college / high-profile college is still valued in an unfortunate way, as evidenced by the scandal where 50 people (including a couple of celebrities) bribed their kids into high-profile schools. If you're super rich, why isn't it OK for your kid to go to Fresno State or the University of Iowa? Does it have to be Northwestern, USC or Ivy? I think that's an indication that the elitism thing is not totally without merit. And what if a CEO's kid wants to become a plumber? Is that wrong? I think most of us kinda think it is, but why?


*Liberal arts is an unfortunate name that I supect gives a little extra push to the anti-education crowd.

tell me about it. (I know this wasn't the meat of your post, but it struck me because....) last night was my youngest's confirmation mass. when my wife and I got married, and didn't have kids yet, we agreed to raise them catholic (well, not me, her for that portion). Fuck, I just found myself getting angrier and angrier as I sat there during mass, listening to the arch bishop blather on and on about peace and love and husbands and wives and all the bullshit "feel good" shit that comprises about 5% of organized religion (historically speaking). luckily both my kids are already wise to it. they did it for their mom. but this is likely where it stops (and my wife is fine with that-more of a "let's keep the door open for them should they so choose that path). I like to think it has to do with us having a balance in their parenting. But I was also around their age when my lightbulb went on as well. so who knows. 

You just described my life right down to the confirmation mass. My oldest has his is this weekend 

my wife turned to me during the reception and said "you just can't keep your disdain hidden, can you?". WTF. I'm participating in this sham, aren't I? I could easily have stood up and shouted "fuck you colonial murderers" at the arch bishop and the priest and walked out. Obviously I wouldn't do that to my family, but shit...I was looking around the room thinking "how can you people believe in this shit?". 

What I find interesting is that the demographic of (at least in our city) parishioners has changed dramatically since I was a kid. It's fewer and fewer white people and more and more immigrants (just an observation). Hell, the last two priests at this parish have been guys from africa no one can understand because of their thick accents. Super nice and jovial guys though. 

This is only tangential but I always find it funny. My parents both grew up catholic. My dad had a miserable experience (verbal and physical abuse at school, one "bad touch" to boot) and my mom's experience was generally positive but she simply stopped believing. So they, both agnostic by now, agree to get me baptized to make others in the family happy. And they have to go to a class. Ten minutes in, dad: "you can stay but I'm outta here." Mom: "I'm with you."  If it hadn't been so complicated and preachy, I'd have been baptized.

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Cropduster-80 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

OnWis97 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

it's funny to me that people see education as an indoctrination into a certain political ideology.....the same people that go to church and/or wear MAGA gear. oh, the irony. 

It's another projection..."brainwashed." I know this can be a sensitive topic but I can't think of anything as brainwashing as religion. Except maybe alt-right media.

The education thing is interesting. I was a political science major and I don't remember anyone really pushing anything on me. But 1) as a liberal, I was already there any maybe coming from my echo chambers, I didn't notice (I'm being 89% sarcastic) and 2) I probably don't even grasp the conservative threshold for "indoctrination." I took a class called "comparative politics" and we studied like four different areas. And we learned about the installation of Pinochet in Chile and the US's role and preference for him over socialism. It was useful, and I suppose it may have been included there because some tenure-protected marxist professor wanted to take the United States down a peg. But as far as I know everything I learned actually happened and it's one of the specific parts of those political science classes I recall. #indoctrinated.

The other thing about education is that there's some blowback from decades of high schools and pop culture telling kids that college was the ideal. And I think there was (still is?) and unspoken but obvious shaming of trade schools, the military and, especially, just getting a job. So every time I see social media posts about valuing trade schools (a good message in itself) the majority of responses are pouncing on leaning a useful skill instead of spending four years getting drunk and getting a degree in 17th Century Albanian Literature. I think some of it is a bit of fighting back on the old "college or you're a loser" narrative, but really, is it OK for people to just do whatever's right for them. I don't think it's usually even poltical (though there is the occasional "liberal indoctrination" angle, to be sure). But many people really believe we should all either be going to trade schools or if we want to be going to college we must spend two years at community college to save money (and everything else is wrong). It's all crap and maybe it used to just be college kids looking down at everyone but we're now all looking down at each other. 

I'll be honest, I feel into that trap, as well, coming from a family of liberal arts bachelors degrees. I'm fortunate that this was the actual right path for me.  Some people learned the hard way (i.e., two years of tuition before dropping out). And you know something, socially, I'd have been hit hard staying home and doing two years of CC. Four years at a big University was absolutely the right thing for me. So sometimes the high-and-mighty return-of-shaming pisses me off. What I'd really like to see is 1) high schools, parents, etc. letting kids know all their options and 2) all of us just letting each other do what's best for us. It might be CC...the military...expensive Ivy League school...whatever.

I will also go to my grave believing that there is value to a well-rounded liberal arts* education along with the "college experience" (which can be had with little/no drinking). But I also understand that that's not best for everyone and the rising cost drives a need to be a bit more utilitarian with these plans.

I think college / high-profile college is still valued in an unfortunate way, as evidenced by the scandal where 50 people (including a couple of celebrities) bribed their kids into high-profile schools. If you're super rich, why isn't it OK for your kid to go to Fresno State or the University of Iowa? Does it have to be Northwestern, USC or Ivy? I think that's an indication that the elitism thing is not totally without merit. And what if a CEO's kid wants to become a plumber? Is that wrong? I think most of us kinda think it is, but why?


*Liberal arts is an unfortunate name that I supect gives a little extra push to the anti-education crowd.

tell me about it. (I know this wasn't the meat of your post, but it struck me because....) last night was my youngest's confirmation mass. when my wife and I got married, and didn't have kids yet, we agreed to raise them catholic (well, not me, her for that portion). Fuck, I just found myself getting angrier and angrier as I sat there during mass, listening to the arch bishop blather on and on about peace and love and husbands and wives and all the bullshit "feel good" shit that comprises about 5% of organized religion (historically speaking). luckily both my kids are already wise to it. they did it for their mom. but this is likely where it stops (and my wife is fine with that-more of a "let's keep the door open for them should they so choose that path). I like to think it has to do with us having a balance in their parenting. But I was also around their age when my lightbulb went on as well. so who knows. 

You just described my life right down to the confirmation mass. My oldest has his is this weekend 

my wife turned to me during the reception and said "you just can't keep your disdain hidden, can you?". WTF. I'm participating in this sham, aren't I? I could easily have stood up and shouted "fuck you colonial murderers" at the arch bishop and the priest and walked out. Obviously I wouldn't do that to my family, but shit...I was looking around the room thinking "how can you people believe in this shit?". 

What I find interesting is that the demographic of (at least in our city) parishioners has changed dramatically since I was a kid. It's fewer and fewer white people and more and more immigrants (just an observation). Hell, the last two priests at this parish have been guys from africa no one can understand because of their thick accents. Super nice and jovial guys though. 

Speaking as someone who was brought up in a heavy Catholic home, I'm not sure the majority of the people around you believe in Catholic faith literally.  I bet less than 20% of Catholics believe in trans-substantiation and that is a fundamental part of the Mass.  For many, there's some comfort in being involved in a routine that you have been engaged in for most of your life.  And they appreciate the community and other aspects of the Church or even church (small c).  I also think the actual teachings of Jesus, whether you think he is a man or the Son of God, are universal and there is some value in thinking about them often.  I say this as someone who hasn't been to Mass in a few years. 

fully agree with the teachings of Jesus, but I also think it's funny that many christians believe morality began with him. it didn't. I consider them more the teachings of morality as a general concept, not some epiphany from one guy where the concept didn't exist prior. the essence of christianity existed in many different forms. 

You would like the Jefferson bible then.Thomas Jefferson cut out all the supernatural stuff and made it a book on philosophy 

i got a copy and I bring it to church when I have to go, just to mess with them 

brought it to RCIA class too as I had to convert to get married. Didn’t go over well though 

Haha, when I had to do it for marriage classes, I kept quoting stuff from the Gnostic gospels.  That wasn't well received either. 

Gern Blansten said:

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Cropduster-80 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

OnWis97 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

it's funny to me that people see education as an indoctrination into a certain political ideology.....the same people that go to church and/or wear MAGA gear. oh, the irony. 

It's another projection..."brainwashed." I know this can be a sensitive topic but I can't think of anything as brainwashing as religion. Except maybe alt-right media.

The education thing is interesting. I was a political science major and I don't remember anyone really pushing anything on me. But 1) as a liberal, I was already there any maybe coming from my echo chambers, I didn't notice (I'm being 89% sarcastic) and 2) I probably don't even grasp the conservative threshold for "indoctrination." I took a class called "comparative politics" and we studied like four different areas. And we learned about the installation of Pinochet in Chile and the US's role and preference for him over socialism. It was useful, and I suppose it may have been included there because some tenure-protected marxist professor wanted to take the United States down a peg. But as far as I know everything I learned actually happened and it's one of the specific parts of those political science classes I recall. #indoctrinated.

The other thing about education is that there's some blowback from decades of high schools and pop culture telling kids that college was the ideal. And I think there was (still is?) and unspoken but obvious shaming of trade schools, the military and, especially, just getting a job. So every time I see social media posts about valuing trade schools (a good message in itself) the majority of responses are pouncing on leaning a useful skill instead of spending four years getting drunk and getting a degree in 17th Century Albanian Literature. I think some of it is a bit of fighting back on the old "college or you're a loser" narrative, but really, is it OK for people to just do whatever's right for them. I don't think it's usually even poltical (though there is the occasional "liberal indoctrination" angle, to be sure). But many people really believe we should all either be going to trade schools or if we want to be going to college we must spend two years at community college to save money (and everything else is wrong). It's all crap and maybe it used to just be college kids looking down at everyone but we're now all looking down at each other. 

I'll be honest, I feel into that trap, as well, coming from a family of liberal arts bachelors degrees. I'm fortunate that this was the actual right path for me.  Some people learned the hard way (i.e., two years of tuition before dropping out). And you know something, socially, I'd have been hit hard staying home and doing two years of CC. Four years at a big University was absolutely the right thing for me. So sometimes the high-and-mighty return-of-shaming pisses me off. What I'd really like to see is 1) high schools, parents, etc. letting kids know all their options and 2) all of us just letting each other do what's best for us. It might be CC...the military...expensive Ivy League school...whatever.

I will also go to my grave believing that there is value to a well-rounded liberal arts* education along with the "college experience" (which can be had with little/no drinking). But I also understand that that's not best for everyone and the rising cost drives a need to be a bit more utilitarian with these plans.

I think college / high-profile college is still valued in an unfortunate way, as evidenced by the scandal where 50 people (including a couple of celebrities) bribed their kids into high-profile schools. If you're super rich, why isn't it OK for your kid to go to Fresno State or the University of Iowa? Does it have to be Northwestern, USC or Ivy? I think that's an indication that the elitism thing is not totally without merit. And what if a CEO's kid wants to become a plumber? Is that wrong? I think most of us kinda think it is, but why?


*Liberal arts is an unfortunate name that I supect gives a little extra push to the anti-education crowd.

tell me about it. (I know this wasn't the meat of your post, but it struck me because....) last night was my youngest's confirmation mass. when my wife and I got married, and didn't have kids yet, we agreed to raise them catholic (well, not me, her for that portion). Fuck, I just found myself getting angrier and angrier as I sat there during mass, listening to the arch bishop blather on and on about peace and love and husbands and wives and all the bullshit "feel good" shit that comprises about 5% of organized religion (historically speaking). luckily both my kids are already wise to it. they did it for their mom. but this is likely where it stops (and my wife is fine with that-more of a "let's keep the door open for them should they so choose that path). I like to think it has to do with us having a balance in their parenting. But I was also around their age when my lightbulb went on as well. so who knows. 

You just described my life right down to the confirmation mass. My oldest has his is this weekend 

my wife turned to me during the reception and said "you just can't keep your disdain hidden, can you?". WTF. I'm participating in this sham, aren't I? I could easily have stood up and shouted "fuck you colonial murderers" at the arch bishop and the priest and walked out. Obviously I wouldn't do that to my family, but shit...I was looking around the room thinking "how can you people believe in this shit?". 

What I find interesting is that the demographic of (at least in our city) parishioners has changed dramatically since I was a kid. It's fewer and fewer white people and more and more immigrants (just an observation). Hell, the last two priests at this parish have been guys from africa no one can understand because of their thick accents. Super nice and jovial guys though. 

Speaking as someone who was brought up in a heavy Catholic home, I'm not sure the majority of the people around you believe in Catholic faith literally.  I bet less than 20% of Catholics believe in trans-substantiation and that is a fundamental part of the Mass.  For many, there's some comfort in being involved in a routine that you have been engaged in for most of your life.  And they appreciate the community and other aspects of the Church or even church (small c).  I also think the actual teachings of Jesus, whether you think he is a man or the Son of God, are universal and there is some value in thinking about them often.  I say this as someone who hasn't been to Mass in a few years. 

fully agree with the teachings of Jesus, but I also think it's funny that many christians believe morality began with him. it didn't. I consider them more the teachings of morality as a general concept, not some epiphany from one guy where the concept didn't exist prior. the essence of christianity existed in many different forms. 

You would like the Jefferson bible then.Thomas Jefferson cut out all the supernatural stuff and made it a book on philosophy 

i got a copy and I bring it to church when I have to go, just to mess with them 

brought it to RCIA class too as I had to convert to get married. Didn’t go over well though 

Haha, when I had to do it for marriage classes, I kept quoting stuff from the Gnostic gospels.  That wasn't well received either. 

Yes but did you add a degree in religious studies just to win religious debates ? Guilty 😂

true story 

Technically it’s a minor but totally the motivation. It’s probably why my BA took 5 1/2 years, just kept adding shit 

Gospel of  Thomas is a personal favourite as it kind of undermines the need for a church structure. God is within you kind of stuff 

I wasn't looking to win debates but I did focus on taking Anthropology, Philosophy and Astronomy classes to do my own "does god exist" journey.

I got my answer and learned some incredible shit. I wish I would spend more time with my telescope.  It's amazing what you can see with a relatively cheap scope. Rings around saturn, etc.