The all-purpose heavy duty Climate Chaos thread (sprinkled with hope).

JB16057 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

The salmon population in the PNW is declining.  We have known this for years.  There is a scientific patrol/catcher vessel heading out to try and understand why the fish are declining and becoming smaller.

Canada and Alaska join efforts in this already and seem to be having some problems too.  It isn't even close to the Washington area but still have concerns.

Alaskan Salmon I have preached about and its sustainability.  If that is threatened then we are in big trouble.

The government is really good at wasting money and pretending they care about certain issues. I live on the Skokomish River. It is the largest river flowing into Hood Canal. It used to thrive with fish. I've lived on the river for almost 20 years and my family has been there for over 100 years. The local and federal government has wasted millions of dollars on this river by doing "studies". We've had multiple studies done by the Army Corps of Engineers. What I've seen time and time again is that they'll get years and millions of $$$ into a study and then the head person leaves and a new person comes in. They start the studies all over again because this new guy has a new way of thinking. I've seen this happen many times.

The local governments and the Army Corps finally came up with "their solution" about 8 years ago. It took years to get the funding to follow through with their plan. Every year they tell us that they are going to get boots on the ground next year to start the work. They have a few projects planned that will help make the river healthier.

The issue with the river is that the logging companies cleared too much in the Olympic Mountains. When they logged, the debris all came down and has essentially filled the river with rock. The river doesn't have a strong enough current to push the rock and debris through so when the rock and silt comes down from the hills, it stays in the river and doesn't get pushed out. They are still logging in the hills. I've spoke with officials about this and they tell me that they are following the rules. I'm no scientist or engineer but I do know that shit falls downhill. If you log on a hillside, what happens to that debris? They aren't allowed to log right up against the river but they are still logging on hills above the river. Debris is still falling into the river even though this was the main cause of the issue in the first place. Seems like a no brainer.

Either way, I have no faith in these studies that the government does. I've seen it time and time again where these agencies are more concerned with their paychecks than they are saving the earth. As long as they have money coming in, they will study something until it's death.

One of the main projects they are proposing is on my property. My neighbor is a river biologist and used to work for the states creating salmon habitat. He told me that there was another river that was very similar to our river. The Army Corps came in and did the same thing to that river except they followed through with their projects. Guess what? Their projects failed and millions of dollars were wasted in the process. In order for the Army Corps to do these projects, they need my neighbor and I to sign half our property way as an easement. We have both asked for the science behind their projects. I can not read it but my neighbor does understand it because it is what he used to do. We've been waiting on this information for 7 months now. We haven't been contacted at all. They had a project all lined up behind my house. They wanted to put in a big woody debris structure in the river to try and help push it along. It has been years since they last set foot on my property. The area in which they wanted to put this project no longer looks anything like it did when they planned the project.

About 10 years ago my neighbors and I went through the proper channels to put in a woody debris project to protect our banks. Where we live, the river is coming at us and bouncing off our property at less than a 90 degree angle. When it is flooding, our banks are getting hit hard. We did everything we could for this project. We were working on the permits for 4 years without getting approval. We were finally given approval under an emergency situation because our bank was about to blow out. This woody debris project was planned on creating essential salmon habitat and the government kept blocking our efforts. We were allowed to put our engineered project in but they wanted us to remove all of the woody debris a few months after we installed it because it was only a temporary emergency permit. We didn't remove anything. It has been a great environment that the fish needed but the government was making it damn near impossible to follow through with.

Here we are 10 years later and we are running into the same situation. If the fish are a big deal, lets fix our river ecosystem. It seems pretty simple right? Not when the government gets involved. We go through moderate flooding multiple times a year. One solution that the government refuses to look at is dredging. The river has too much debris in it. There are sections of this river that go underground during the summer. Last time I checked, fish can not walk on land. If they dredged these areas, the water would have somewhere to go. When it dries up, you can't even see where the river was because the riverbed is completely flat. It is really sad. During the summer there are many areas that dry up and trap the juvenile fish in puddles that either dry up or heat up so much that the fish die.

One issue we have that is unique with the river is that so many government entities own a piece of the pie. We have federal, state, county and tribe governments that all have a piece of the puzzle. It wasn't until recently that they started to agree. History has handed the tribe the short end of the stick for sure but it still makes me mad that the tribe is allowed to fish the river using nets. I understand this is how their ancestors used to fish but these jokers leave their nets and garbage in the river yearlong. Netting fish is only adding to the low salmon population.

The low salmon population is getting worse and worse and at least in my area, so is the government's response.

JB16057 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

JB16057 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

The salmon population in the PNW is declining.  We have known this for years.  There is a scientific patrol/catcher vessel heading out to try and understand why the fish are declining and becoming smaller.

Canada and Alaska join efforts in this already and seem to be having some problems too.  It isn't even close to the Washington area but still have concerns.

Alaskan Salmon I have preached about and its sustainability.  If that is threatened then we are in big trouble.

The government is really good at wasting money and pretending they care about certain issues. I live on the Skokomish River. It is the largest river flowing into Hood Canal. It used to thrive with fish. I've lived on the river for almost 20 years and my family has been there for over 100 years. The local and federal government has wasted millions of dollars on this river by doing "studies". We've had multiple studies done by the Army Corps of Engineers. What I've seen time and time again is that they'll get years and millions of $$$ into a study and then the head person leaves and a new person comes in. They start the studies all over again because this new guy has a new way of thinking. I've seen this happen many times.

The local governments and the Army Corps finally came up with "their solution" about 8 years ago. It took years to get the funding to follow through with their plan. Every year they tell us that they are going to get boots on the ground next year to start the work. They have a few projects planned that will help make the river healthier.

The issue with the river is that the logging companies cleared too much in the Olympic Mountains. When they logged, the debris all came down and has essentially filled the river with rock. The river doesn't have a strong enough current to push the rock and debris through so when the rock and silt comes down from the hills, it stays in the river and doesn't get pushed out. They are still logging in the hills. I've spoke with officials about this and they tell me that they are following the rules. I'm no scientist or engineer but I do know that shit falls downhill. If you log on a hillside, what happens to that debris? They aren't allowed to log right up against the river but they are still logging on hills above the river. Debris is still falling into the river even though this was the main cause of the issue in the first place. Seems like a no brainer.

Either way, I have no faith in these studies that the government does. I've seen it time and time again where these agencies are more concerned with their paychecks than they are saving the earth. As long as they have money coming in, they will study something until it's death.

One of the main projects they are proposing is on my property. My neighbor is a river biologist and used to work for the states creating salmon habitat. He told me that there was another river that was very similar to our river. The Army Corps came in and did the same thing to that river except they followed through with their projects. Guess what? Their projects failed and millions of dollars were wasted in the process. In order for the Army Corps to do these projects, they need my neighbor and I to sign half our property way as an easement. We have both asked for the science behind their projects. I can not read it but my neighbor does understand it because it is what he used to do. We've been waiting on this information for 7 months now. We haven't been contacted at all. They had a project all lined up behind my house. They wanted to put in a big woody debris structure in the river to try and help push it along. It has been years since they last set foot on my property. The area in which they wanted to put this project no longer looks anything like it did when they planned the project.

About 10 years ago my neighbors and I went through the proper channels to put in a woody debris project to protect our banks. Where we live, the river is coming at us and bouncing off our property at less than a 90 degree angle. When it is flooding, our banks are getting hit hard. We did everything we could for this project. We were working on the permits for 4 years without getting approval. We were finally given approval under an emergency situation because our bank was about to blow out. This woody debris project was planned on creating essential salmon habitat and the government kept blocking our efforts. We were allowed to put our engineered project in but they wanted us to remove all of the woody debris a few months after we installed it because it was only a temporary emergency permit. We didn't remove anything. It has been a great environment that the fish needed but the government was making it damn near impossible to follow through with.

Here we are 10 years later and we are running into the same situation. If the fish are a big deal, lets fix our river ecosystem. It seems pretty simple right? Not when the government gets involved. We go through moderate flooding multiple times a year. One solution that the government refuses to look at is dredging. The river has too much debris in it. There are sections of this river that go underground during the summer. Last time I checked, fish can not walk on land. If they dredged these areas, the water would have somewhere to go. When it dries up, you can't even see where the river was because the riverbed is completely flat. It is really sad. During the summer there are many areas that dry up and trap the juvenile fish in puddles that either dry up or heat up so much that the fish die.

One issue we have that is unique with the river is that so many government entities own a piece of the pie. We have federal, state, county and tribe governments that all have a piece of the puzzle. It wasn't until recently that they started to agree. History has handed the tribe the short end of the stick for sure but it still makes me mad that the tribe is allowed to fish the river using nets. I understand this is how their ancestors used to fish but these jokers leave their nets and garbage in the river yearlong. Netting fish is only adding to the low salmon population.

The low salmon population is getting worse and worse and at least in my area, so is the government's response.

This is interesting because the whole point of the projects is to get information and use it...

Alaska hires "Observers" for the fishing seasons.  They track bycatch, sizes and samples of the fish.  From those samples they can tell you where the fish were from and depending on where they were caught, are they returning to spawn where they were from.

In Louisiana they dredged a large area of a river to make passage for vessels.  In doing that it created a whole new biodiversity in the area and slowly destroying another.  They are still learning from this.

I said all of that to say it appears that the government in your area has no clue to what they are doing...

Dredging the soot is a must.  Salmon can run in a few inches of water but having a better waterflow makes their numbers a better success.  Think of "salmon ladders" and what they do at dams an locks.

Is there a hatchery where the salmon come from or this is all just nature?  I'm sure the wading pools that salmon rely on to spawn are almost nonexistent in your area too?

I can try to blame our local government but the feds are the main culprits(Army Corps of Engineers).

There are 2 fish hatcheries(salmon and trout). They do stock this river with these fish. There are natural born fish but those numbers are getting smaller every year. Our local Fish and Wildlife installs a fish trap in our backyard every year. The fish trap cathces the juveniles and they figure out which ones are from the hatcheries and which are natural. They clip the hatchery fish fins so they can tell where they came from.

The whole thing has made me very cynical. Fish and Wildlife has trespassed on my property. They installed that fish trap on my property without my permission. They've left their garbage in the river. It's just ridiculous.

brianlux said:

JB16057 said:

brianlux said:

^^^ Interesting conversation, JB and tn'g. 

I lived in Sequim from around 1989 to 1993 and the whole Dungeness Valley area has tremendous views of the Olympic Mountains.  At that time, the logging only took place in the lower elevations of the mountains on U.S. Forest lands (and I hope that's still the case).  Nevertheless, it was really a drag watching these giant clear cuts being slashed into the slopes.  I use paper, I have pencils, etc., so I would be a hypocrite to say I'm against logging (although logging could be hugely reduced by growing hemp instead), but there are less invasive ways to log that even to this day are not always followed.  I swear, sometimes it seemed to me that the logging in the lower Olympic mountains was carried out by trolls.  One time there was a huge clear-cut made in the shape of a question mark.  My thought was, "Well, OK, wtf is with that?"  

I spent a lot of free time at the Railroad Bridge Park that crosses the Dungeness Rive and don't recall that river having a lot of silt blockage or debris.  I wonder if that has begun to change? 

Such a beautiful area.  I'm sorry to hear there are these issues going on there.

Sequim is a beautiful city and area. I understand the need to log for both the products we use and how it can be beneficial to the environment. The local logging companies around here are just going to town. I have a friend that is surrounded by the US Forest lands. They are going through and clear cutting a ton of trees. Nowadays they don't have to cut the trees down with chainsaws by hand. They have those big machines that grab the trees and cut them. They can demolish a whole forest in a day. The whole situation is really sad because they should be looking into the less invasive ways of logging but money always corrupts.

That's very sad to hear.  What's particularly frustrating is that I'm told much of that lumber is not even used for domestic purposes but instead is shipped out of the country.  Selling off our forests for profit seems like a hugely unwise idea.

JB16057 said:

brianlux said:

JB16057 said:

brianlux said:

^^^ Interesting conversation, JB and tn'g. 

I lived in Sequim from around 1989 to 1993 and the whole Dungeness Valley area has tremendous views of the Olympic Mountains.  At that time, the logging only took place in the lower elevations of the mountains on U.S. Forest lands (and I hope that's still the case).  Nevertheless, it was really a drag watching these giant clear cuts being slashed into the slopes.  I use paper, I have pencils, etc., so I would be a hypocrite to say I'm against logging (although logging could be hugely reduced by growing hemp instead), but there are less invasive ways to log that even to this day are not always followed.  I swear, sometimes it seemed to me that the logging in the lower Olympic mountains was carried out by trolls.  One time there was a huge clear-cut made in the shape of a question mark.  My thought was, "Well, OK, wtf is with that?"  

I spent a lot of free time at the Railroad Bridge Park that crosses the Dungeness Rive and don't recall that river having a lot of silt blockage or debris.  I wonder if that has begun to change? 

Such a beautiful area.  I'm sorry to hear there are these issues going on there.

Sequim is a beautiful city and area. I understand the need to log for both the products we use and how it can be beneficial to the environment. The local logging companies around here are just going to town. I have a friend that is surrounded by the US Forest lands. They are going through and clear cutting a ton of trees. Nowadays they don't have to cut the trees down with chainsaws by hand. They have those big machines that grab the trees and cut them. They can demolish a whole forest in a day. The whole situation is really sad because they should be looking into the less invasive ways of logging but money always corrupts.

That's very sad to hear.  What's particularly frustrating is that I'm told much of that lumber is not even used for domestic purposes but instead is shipped out of the country.  Selling off our forests for profit seems like a hugely unwise idea.

I think there's a balance somewhere in there but they've never been able to get it right. How many years does it take to fix this kind of damage that has been done? And then get government money involved and everyone wants a piece of that pie.

Here's a funny and unique video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFZbciPzAYk

This happens every year. I live about 3.5 miles past this point in the road. The river floods and tons of salmon get displaced. Many of them end up in this area and cross the road to realize that they took a wrong turn. All of these fish are trying to get back to the river. We dodge salmon multiples times. It's sad to see the fish out of the river but it does attract the bald eagles. Last October/November this area has around 30 bald eagles sitting in those fields eating salmon. Unfortunately, the water table is rising every year. Those fields used to grow hay. Now they are just swamps because the water table is so high. The rotting fish used to fertilize the fields. I guess they still do but you can't grow anything in them anymore. It was about 20 years ago that these fields started to deteriorate and have only gotten worse. I feel bad for the farmers that have been out in this valley to see their land go to shit. Meanwhile the logging companies are raking in the cash and destroying the ecosystem.

brianlux said:

tempo_n_groove said:

brianlux said:

tempo_n_groove said:

brianlux said:

JB16057 said:

brianlux said:

^^^ Interesting conversation, JB and tn'g. 

I lived in Sequim from around 1989 to 1993 and the whole Dungeness Valley area has tremendous views of the Olympic Mountains.  At that time, the logging only took place in the lower elevations of the mountains on U.S. Forest lands (and I hope that's still the case).  Nevertheless, it was really a drag watching these giant clear cuts being slashed into the slopes.  I use paper, I have pencils, etc., so I would be a hypocrite to say I'm against logging (although logging could be hugely reduced by growing hemp instead), but there are less invasive ways to log that even to this day are not always followed.  I swear, sometimes it seemed to me that the logging in the lower Olympic mountains was carried out by trolls.  One time there was a huge clear-cut made in the shape of a question mark.  My thought was, "Well, OK, wtf is with that?"  

I spent a lot of free time at the Railroad Bridge Park that crosses the Dungeness Rive and don't recall that river having a lot of silt blockage or debris.  I wonder if that has begun to change? 

Such a beautiful area.  I'm sorry to hear there are these issues going on there.

Sequim is a beautiful city and area. I understand the need to log for both the products we use and how it can be beneficial to the environment. The local logging companies around here are just going to town. I have a friend that is surrounded by the US Forest lands. They are going through and clear cutting a ton of trees. Nowadays they don't have to cut the trees down with chainsaws by hand. They have those big machines that grab the trees and cut them. They can demolish a whole forest in a day. The whole situation is really sad because they should be looking into the less invasive ways of logging but money always corrupts.

That's very sad to hear.  What's particularly frustrating is that I'm told much of that lumber is not even used for domestic purposes but instead is shipped out of the country.  Selling off our forests for profit seems like a hugely unwise idea.

Positive is our forests are overgrown and come drought season can burn down very easily.

Negative is Loggers are there to cut down trees, not worry about environmental impacts.

Another downfall is if you don't replant.  Cut down one and plant 2, then weed them out so you get good growth spurts.

Forest management (I have issues with that term because we are so arrogant as to think we can manage nature better that nature can) seems to vary from place to place.  I haven't kept up on things up there enough to say how it is now, but Washington has had some terrible management in the past.  I remember one time seeing a U.S. Forest Service sign on a road leading into the rain forest area in the western Olympics that was "revised" from saying "Managed Forest" to "Manged Forest".  There was a thin strip of evergreens all along the road but beyond that facade, utter forest devastation. 

Forrest management was done by the native Americans quite successfully for years.  Aborigines would do control burns to prevent massive wild fires.

I have said we should learn or take a page from their books or hire them to continue the practice.

Trees that are on top of each other and grow like thickets aren't very productive forests to me.  I am open to a conversation about them.

I am also for cutting and replanting .

Good point.  Malcolm Margolin talks about this in his book about Bay Area native Americans, The Ohlone Way and the descriptions given be early European visitors to the area that Margolin dug up gives a clear image of how well balance ecosystems were her out west in those days long ago.  The differences in the picture the author paints for us as to what the ecosystems looked like here a mere 175 to 200 years ago as compared to today is overwhelming.
The indigenous tribes did do some control burning and what also helped was that fires in the Sierras started by lightning were not suppressed and so naturally allowed fires to sweep through underbrush often enough to keep a good balance. 
Everything got thrown off out here after Europeans moved in and proliferation to the point of overpopulation.  The indigenous peoples had very stable and reasonable population numbers.

brianlux said:

tempo_n_groove said:

brianlux said:

tempo_n_groove said:

brianlux said:

tempo_n_groove said:

brianlux said:

JB16057 said:

brianlux said:

^^^ Interesting conversation, JB and tn'g. 

I lived in Sequim from around 1989 to 1993 and the whole Dungeness Valley area has tremendous views of the Olympic Mountains.  At that time, the logging only took place in the lower elevations of the mountains on U.S. Forest lands (and I hope that's still the case).  Nevertheless, it was really a drag watching these giant clear cuts being slashed into the slopes.  I use paper, I have pencils, etc., so I would be a hypocrite to say I'm against logging (although logging could be hugely reduced by growing hemp instead), but there are less invasive ways to log that even to this day are not always followed.  I swear, sometimes it seemed to me that the logging in the lower Olympic mountains was carried out by trolls.  One time there was a huge clear-cut made in the shape of a question mark.  My thought was, "Well, OK, wtf is with that?"  

I spent a lot of free time at the Railroad Bridge Park that crosses the Dungeness Rive and don't recall that river having a lot of silt blockage or debris.  I wonder if that has begun to change? 

Such a beautiful area.  I'm sorry to hear there are these issues going on there.

Sequim is a beautiful city and area. I understand the need to log for both the products we use and how it can be beneficial to the environment. The local logging companies around here are just going to town. I have a friend that is surrounded by the US Forest lands. They are going through and clear cutting a ton of trees. Nowadays they don't have to cut the trees down with chainsaws by hand. They have those big machines that grab the trees and cut them. They can demolish a whole forest in a day. The whole situation is really sad because they should be looking into the less invasive ways of logging but money always corrupts.

That's very sad to hear.  What's particularly frustrating is that I'm told much of that lumber is not even used for domestic purposes but instead is shipped out of the country.  Selling off our forests for profit seems like a hugely unwise idea.

Positive is our forests are overgrown and come drought season can burn down very easily.

Negative is Loggers are there to cut down trees, not worry about environmental impacts.

Another downfall is if you don't replant.  Cut down one and plant 2, then weed them out so you get good growth spurts.

Forest management (I have issues with that term because we are so arrogant as to think we can manage nature better that nature can) seems to vary from place to place.  I haven't kept up on things up there enough to say how it is now, but Washington has had some terrible management in the past.  I remember one time seeing a U.S. Forest Service sign on a road leading into the rain forest area in the western Olympics that was "revised" from saying "Managed Forest" to "Manged Forest".  There was a thin strip of evergreens all along the road but beyond that facade, utter forest devastation. 

Forrest management was done by the native Americans quite successfully for years.  Aborigines would do control burns to prevent massive wild fires.

I have said we should learn or take a page from their books or hire them to continue the practice.

Trees that are on top of each other and grow like thickets aren't very productive forests to me.  I am open to a conversation about them.

I am also for cutting and replanting .

Good point.  Malcolm Margolin talks about this in his book about Bay Area native Americans, The Ohlone Way and the descriptions given be early European visitors to the area that Margolin dug up gives a clear image of how well balance ecosystems were her out west in those days long ago.  The differences in the picture the author paints for us as to what the ecosystems looked like here a mere 175 to 200 years ago as compared to today is overwhelming.
The indigenous tribes did do some control burning and what also helped was that fires in the Sierras started by lightning were not suppressed and so naturally allowed fires to sweep through underbrush often enough to keep a good balance. 
Everything got thrown off out here after Europeans moved in and proliferation to the point of overpopulation.  The indigenous peoples had very stable and reasonable population numbers.

They more than anyone understood sustainability.  If you hunt/fish it all out then it won't return.

I am reminded of the part in Lord of the Bushwillies(Flies) when they kill the momma boar.  They now left all the piglets to die without momma to take care of them.

Exactly!  Is as though they had a natural inborn sense of maintaining balance heightened by learned experience.