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Critical Race Theory

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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 35,053
    I saw this clip from Bill Maher featuring Ben Shapiro and Malcolm Nance, hoping it would somehow help define just what Critical Race Theory is.  I'm convinced more than even that there really is no single, decisive definition of CRT, and that it is generally open to several interpretations.  Which, to my way of thinking, makes it all but useless.  Watch and see if you agree:



    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 22,728
    edited August 11
    brianlux said:
    I saw this clip from Bill Maher featuring Ben Shapiro and Malcolm Nance, hoping it would somehow help define just what Critical Race Theory is.  I'm convinced more than even that there really is no single, decisive definition of CRT, and that it is generally open to several interpretations.  Which, to my way of thinking, makes it all but useless.  Watch and see if you agree:




    ummm, use the definition as established by the scholars who developed the theory.

    so no, its not useless. 


    Post edited by mickeyrat on
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 28,175
    brianlux said:
    I saw this clip from Bill Maher featuring Ben Shapiro and Malcolm Nance, hoping it would somehow help define just what Critical Race Theory is.  I'm convinced more than even that there really is no single, decisive definition of CRT, and that it is generally open to several interpretations.  Which, to my way of thinking, makes it all but useless.  Watch and see if you agree:



    CRT should not be taught to anyone who isn't an adult and can logically form an opinion on such a complex subject. And as far as I know, it isn't. That is a right wing fear mongering talking point. it should be taught at the college level which it is. 

    Ben Shapiro is a fucking loon. Bill Maher needs to stop hosting these assholes, but I guess, being an asshole himself, he's gonna do what he's gonna do. 

    on CRT itself, it is absolutely a valid theory and adults should be exposed to it and realize their white privilege. And stop being afraid of acknowledging that; that doesn't mean you are all of a sudden going to be legally compelled to give up your home to a minority. CRT is a gateway to improving our society as a whole. So of course there's going to be resistance to it from the bigoted right. 
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • Lerxst1992Lerxst1992 Posts: 4,129
    brianlux said:
    I saw this clip from Bill Maher featuring Ben Shapiro and Malcolm Nance, hoping it would somehow help define just what Critical Race Theory is.  I'm convinced more than even that there really is no single, decisive definition of CRT, and that it is generally open to several interpretations.  Which, to my way of thinking, makes it all but useless.  Watch and see if you agree:



    CRT should not be taught to anyone who isn't an adult and can logically form an opinion on such a complex subject. And as far as I know, it isn't. That is a right wing fear mongering talking point. it should be taught at the college level which it is. 

    Ben Shapiro is a fucking loon. Bill Maher needs to stop hosting these assholes, but I guess, being an asshole himself, he's gonna do what he's gonna do. 

    on CRT itself, it is absolutely a valid theory and adults should be exposed to it and realize their white privilege. And stop being afraid of acknowledging that; that doesn't mean you are all of a sudden going to be legally compelled to give up your home to a minority. CRT is a gateway to improving our society as a whole. So of course there's going to be resistance to it from the bigoted right. 

    Ben Shapiro is a fucking loon...with a nice fluffy pillow filled with cash because he is so awesome.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 35,053
    mickeyrat said:
    brianlux said:
    I saw this clip from Bill Maher featuring Ben Shapiro and Malcolm Nance, hoping it would somehow help define just what Critical Race Theory is.  I'm convinced more than even that there really is no single, decisive definition of CRT, and that it is generally open to several interpretations.  Which, to my way of thinking, makes it all but useless.  Watch and see if you agree:




    ummm, use the definition as established by the scholars who developed the theory.

    so no, its not useless. 



    OK, I'll agree "useless" is not the best descriptor.  And yes, I have read that definition and others. 
    But here's the thing, is something important that regards issues related to systemic racism  that hasn't been well defined within the culture going to be effective on a practical level?   I'm often interested in the established scholarly definition of something important because that's how my interests trend.  But a scholarly definition of something, and actions applied in a practical manner that are useful on a social level- those are rarely the same thing.  The average person is not going to be as interested in an intellectual understanding of something such as CRT as some of us are.  If we can't put something like CRT into a more understandable format in terms besides a highly scholarly definition, then at best you end up with a group of people intellectualizing on a thread like this, or studying in a classroom- all well and good- but not likely to also be making concrete efforts to resolve social problems by practical means that are better defined on a social level.
    When the black power movement of the late 60's and early 70's was in it's prime, shit was happening.  People were getting organized.  Attitudes were changing.  Lives were improving.  There was a good amount of scholarly discussion, of course, but there was a lot of direct action. 
    The problem is, society got lax again, thinking things were OK.  You had a certain number of rising black actors and musicians and sports figures being highlighted in ways through the media that made things seems like the problems had been solved.  White privilege still kept whites in the driver seat but it was so not obvious and it got overlooked.
    But the reality of the situation for black and other minority groups being far less privilege began to fester in the public eye again and a new wave of black activism arose.  But- and this is just my perspective, I'm no expert- movement toward improving the situation seems  less focused today than it had been during the Black Power era.  Maybe I'm wrong, and I hope so.  I just don't see how a concept that on a social level is as vague as CRT- something that, outside intellectual circles, is not understood well at all- I don't see that hold a lot of high hopes for things moving forward. 
    Of course, I'm not opposed to CRT, I just don't see it as a practical route to solving the racial problems that persist.
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 28,175
    I don't find CRT to be vague; I think the general public are confused by what it actually is because of right wing misinformation fear mongering tactics to do exactly that-keep the public confused so it can't effectively organize. 

    but honestly, if people really want to know and understand what it is, all they need is an internet connection. 
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 22,728
    posting videos  with bullshit definitions fro. the right is in my view furthering this confusion. at a minimum it isnt helpful .

    historical fact and evidence shows me this   crt, isnt theory....   but reality
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 35,053
    I don't find CRT to be vague; I think the general public are confused by what it actually is because of right wing misinformation fear mongering tactics to do exactly that-keep the public confused so it can't effectively organize. 

    but honestly, if people really want to know and understand what it is, all they need is an internet connection. 

    Yeah, I hear you,  the right wing in general certainly doesn't want progressive movement regarding systemic- often, even, blatant- racism.  But by focusing on a theory that is not easily understood by the average person, I think the movement stifles itself.  You can't even get a lot of well educated people to agree on the topic, let alone the not-well educated (in the U.S., anyway) average person to grasp the concept.

    I don't believe I'm alone in this thinking.  But rather than argue that point (and why, anyway?), maybe I can suggest there be a focus on a more understandable explanation of CRT.  For example, which of these two explanations would be most easily understood by the average person?

    THIS:
    Critical race theory (CRT) is a body of legal scholarship and an academic movement of civil-rights scholars and activists in the United States who seek to critically examine the intersection of race and U.S. Law and to challenge mainstream American Liberal approaches to racial justice. CRT examines social, cultural, and legal issues primarily as they relate to race and racism in the Unite States.
    ...the basic tenets of CRT include that racism and disparate racial outcomes are the result of complex, changing, and often subtle social and institutional dynamics, rather than explicit and intentional prejudices in individuals. CRT scholars also view race and white supremacy as an intersectional social construction. which serves to uphold the interests of white people at the expense of marginalized communities.  In the field of legal studies, CRT emphasizes that merely making laws colorblind on paper may not be enough to make the application of the laws colorblind; ostensibly colorblind laws can be applied in racially discriminatory ways   A key CRT concept is Intersectionality which emphasizes that race can intersect with other identities (such as gender and class) to produce complex combinations of power and disadvantage.

    (And while were at it, lets make sure our grade school kids understand that Intersectionality is "the interconnected nature of social categorizations such as race, class, and gender as they apply to a given individual or group, regarded as creating overlapping and interdependent systems of discrimination or disadvantage.")

    OR THIS:

    These super smart scholars identified 5 basic tenets** of Critical Race Theory –the core components.

    1. The centrality and intersectionality of racism. Racism exists everywhere in American life –from within our own thoughts, to our personal relationships, to our places of work, to our educational and judicial systems. CRT says that racism isn’t just the actions of individuals but that it’s embedded in our institutions, systems, and culture. It is our way of life.

    2. The challenge to dominant ideologyIn law and other arenas there is a belief that concepts like neutrality, objectivity, colorblindness, and meritocracy can be fully actualized. CRT says, “not so fast, how can one be truly neutral on issues of race when racism is baked into the fabric of America?” (Ummm, it can’t).

    CRT pointed out that claims of objectivity and colorblindeness can be ways in which dominant groups camouflage their interests in order to get what’s best for them—check out housing and education in this country if you don’t believe me.

    3. The commitment to social justiceCRT as a framework acknowledges how all oppression interrelates and focuses on eradicating racism and other forms of oppression by centering People of Color and taking a stance on issues of social justice. People of Color have been fighting before this country was formed for justice and this has never stopped in some form or fashion.

    4. The importance of experiential knowledge. This is huge y’all, CRT says that the lived experiences of People of Color however expressed (storytelling, family history, biographies, scenarios, parables, cuentos, chronicles, narratives)** are crucial to understanding racism and oppression, that they are necessary in our quest for liberation. From the academic, to legal, to activist arenas lived experience must be taken seriously.

    5. The use of an interdisciplinary perspective. CRT draws from many different fields in order to create a powerful and nuanced framework for engaging with race and racism. There is no one answer, no one discipline, no one path to freedom. CRT says let’s use all the tools in the toolbox to help educate folks so we can get free.

    Of course CRT is more theoretical then I have described but this is it boiled down at its core. CRT is the education that most of us never got—or we did not get until after we left school. It is an education that values challenging the status quo and prioritizing lived experiences.

    https://adawaygroup.com/critical-race-theory/















    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 28,580
    I've read many a thing from different scholars, writers, observers, etc.  My first question I asked when I started this thread was "are teachers teaching it wrong?"

    I believe therein lies the problem.  Every teacher will have a different take on what it means and express it in their own way and some of it might come out wrong to someone and they will have a problem with it.

    They mentioned the scalping of natives here to clear land.  I do remember learning about that in HS along w the anti-Chinese act.

    History should be taught, not skipped over.  Can you teach kids history and let them draw their own conclusions as to why these things happened?

    Some good back and forth here everyone.
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 22,728
    I've read many a thing from different scholars, writers, observers, etc.  My first question I asked when I started this thread was "are teachers teaching it wrong?"

    I believe therein lies the problem.  Every teacher will have a different take on what it means and express it in their own way and some of it might come out wrong to someone and they will have a problem with it.

    They mentioned the scalping of natives here to clear land.  I do remember learning about that in HS along w the anti-Chinese act.

    History should be taught, not skipped over.  Can you teach kids history and let them draw their own conclusions as to why these things happened?

    Some good back and forth here everyone.

    CRT isnt bring taught in grade or hs.... truer elements of history may be but they are two distinctly different things.

    CRT is law school shit.....
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 28,580
    mickeyrat said:
    I've read many a thing from different scholars, writers, observers, etc.  My first question I asked when I started this thread was "are teachers teaching it wrong?"

    I believe therein lies the problem.  Every teacher will have a different take on what it means and express it in their own way and some of it might come out wrong to someone and they will have a problem with it.

    They mentioned the scalping of natives here to clear land.  I do remember learning about that in HS along w the anti-Chinese act.

    History should be taught, not skipped over.  Can you teach kids history and let them draw their own conclusions as to why these things happened?

    Some good back and forth here everyone.

    CRT isnt bring taught in grade or hs.... truer elements of history may be but they are two distinctly different things.

    CRT is law school shit.....
    Not true.  Alternative schools are teaching this.  I posted one of them above earlier.  They start at Kindergarten.  They post their teachings and that is where the negatives are stemming from.
  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 12,240
    It is amazing how the right is making CRT their new outrage point.  I'm seeing my FB feed flood with idiots talking about how horrible it is and I see no one promoting it.
    Remember the Thomas Nine!! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
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    2020: Oakland1, Oakland2:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 28,175
    I've read many a thing from different scholars, writers, observers, etc.  My first question I asked when I started this thread was "are teachers teaching it wrong?"

    I believe therein lies the problem.  Every teacher will have a different take on what it means and express it in their own way and some of it might come out wrong to someone and they will have a problem with it.

    They mentioned the scalping of natives here to clear land.  I do remember learning about that in HS along w the anti-Chinese act.

    History should be taught, not skipped over.  Can you teach kids history and let them draw their own conclusions as to why these things happened?

    Some good back and forth here everyone.
    I see your point, but how do you teach the how's without the why's. the why's are a very important element of it. I mean, we teach they why's of nazism and communism. But we don't currently teach the why's of systemic racism and oppression in the US and Canada. 

    I'm 47. My history class never taught us about how the native americans here were slaughtered by europeans. It wasn't long ago that Louis Riel was thought of as a traitor. Now we have a stat holiday in his name, he's heralded as the founder of Manitoba, and people wear Che Guevara-like t shirts with the slogan "Keepin' It Riel". 


    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 28,580
    I've read many a thing from different scholars, writers, observers, etc.  My first question I asked when I started this thread was "are teachers teaching it wrong?"

    I believe therein lies the problem.  Every teacher will have a different take on what it means and express it in their own way and some of it might come out wrong to someone and they will have a problem with it.

    They mentioned the scalping of natives here to clear land.  I do remember learning about that in HS along w the anti-Chinese act.

    History should be taught, not skipped over.  Can you teach kids history and let them draw their own conclusions as to why these things happened?

    Some good back and forth here everyone.
    I see your point, but how do you teach the how's without the why's. the why's are a very important element of it. I mean, we teach they why's of nazism and communism. But we don't currently teach the why's of systemic racism and oppression in the US and Canada. 

    I'm 47. My history class never taught us about how the native americans here were slaughtered by europeans. It wasn't long ago that Louis Riel was thought of as a traitor. Now we have a stat holiday in his name, he's heralded as the founder of Manitoba, and people wear Che Guevara-like t shirts with the slogan "Keepin' It Riel". 


    I agree with what Bill Mahr said about it.  Now how you go about that and hit all the talking points I am not sure.  Someone would have an issue with it I'm sure from either side of the aisle or maybe both.  It's not my area of expertise.

  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 35,053
    I've read many a thing from different scholars, writers, observers, etc.  My first question I asked when I started this thread was "are teachers teaching it wrong?"

    I believe therein lies the problem.  Every teacher will have a different take on what it means and express it in their own way and some of it might come out wrong to someone and they will have a problem with it.

    They mentioned the scalping of natives here to clear land.  I do remember learning about that in HS along w the anti-Chinese act.

    History should be taught, not skipped over.  Can you teach kids history and let them draw their own conclusions as to why these things happened?

    Some good back and forth here everyone.
    I see your point, but how do you teach the how's without the why's. the why's are a very important element of it. I mean, we teach they why's of nazism and communism. But we don't currently teach the why's of systemic racism and oppression in the US and Canada. 

    I'm 47. My history class never taught us about how the native americans here were slaughtered by europeans. It wasn't long ago that Louis Riel was thought of as a traitor. Now we have a stat holiday in his name, he's heralded as the founder of Manitoba, and people wear Che Guevara-like t shirts with the slogan "Keepin' It Riel". 



    Going back a little further, all the history I was taught in school came out of textbooks and mumbling teachers mouths.  Those books were boring as hell (and probably inaccurate anyway) and between them and the droning on of my history teachers, I figured history was all just dates and places anyway, so paid little attention and literally learned nothing about history until my last year in high school.  At that point, I had a very history conscious girl friend who was a person of color and very aware of how history impacted her people (Japanese).  She caught me up on a lot of history!  I learned more later in college and beyond, reading on my own. 
    I really hope kids are getting taught history better than I was.  If we were at 1 or 2 on the a scale of one to ten, with ten being totally great teaching of true history, I wonder what are kids today getting?
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 28,175
    brianlux said:
    I've read many a thing from different scholars, writers, observers, etc.  My first question I asked when I started this thread was "are teachers teaching it wrong?"

    I believe therein lies the problem.  Every teacher will have a different take on what it means and express it in their own way and some of it might come out wrong to someone and they will have a problem with it.

    They mentioned the scalping of natives here to clear land.  I do remember learning about that in HS along w the anti-Chinese act.

    History should be taught, not skipped over.  Can you teach kids history and let them draw their own conclusions as to why these things happened?

    Some good back and forth here everyone.
    I see your point, but how do you teach the how's without the why's. the why's are a very important element of it. I mean, we teach they why's of nazism and communism. But we don't currently teach the why's of systemic racism and oppression in the US and Canada. 

    I'm 47. My history class never taught us about how the native americans here were slaughtered by europeans. It wasn't long ago that Louis Riel was thought of as a traitor. Now we have a stat holiday in his name, he's heralded as the founder of Manitoba, and people wear Che Guevara-like t shirts with the slogan "Keepin' It Riel". 



    Going back a little further, all the history I was taught in school came out of textbooks and mumbling teachers mouths.  Those books were boring as hell (and probably inaccurate anyway) and between them and the droning on of my history teachers, I figured history was all just dates and places anyway, so paid little attention and literally learned nothing about history until my last year in high school.  At that point, I had a very history conscious girl friend who was a person of color and very aware of how history impacted her people (Japanese).  She caught me up on a lot of history!  I learned more later in college and beyond, reading on my own. 
    I really hope kids are getting taught history better than I was.  If we were at 1 or 2 on the a scale of one to ten, with ten being totally great teaching of true history, I wonder what are kids today getting?
    I honestly kind of feel jipped by the school system of the 90's. there was so much that wasn't taught, and obviously that was by design. My kids are being taught way more about actual history than I was, which I'm thrilled about. 
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • Gern BlanstenGern Blansten Your Mom'sPosts: 12,240
    I honestly don't remember much of what I was taught in K-12 related to US history.  I had a few good history teachers but most were gym teachers that also taught history to give them something to do.  We would likely have been taught whatever the book said.

    In college I took world history and that's it...all that was required.  

    I do remember talking about how the Indians got the shit end of the stick though.
    Remember the Thomas Nine!! (10/02/2018)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
    2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
    2013: London ON, Chicago; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
    2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley #1, Wrigley #2, Boston #1, Boston #2
    2020: Oakland1, Oakland2:  2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
  • joseph33joseph33 NashvillePosts: 937
    Truthful history should be taught without making students feel guilty. It's only in learning from our past that we can correct our future. Racism is NOT a one way street.
  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commetsPosts: 25,687
    We can learn from our present, also

    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 22,728
    We can learn from our present, also


    right , because its the past repeating itself....
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 28,580
    On Tamron Hall today she is doing a piece on CRT if anyone in interested.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 28,580
    On Tamron Hall today she is doing a piece on CRT if anyone in interested.
    Never mind.  It will be on next week as they ran out of time today.
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