Critical Race Theory
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you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
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OPINION
ROSS DOUTHAT
Why a Patriotic Education Can Be Valuable
July 10, 2021ImageCredit...Jon Lowenstein/NOOR, via Redux
By Ross Douthat
Opinion Columnist
I have my doubts about America. As a Catholic, my first loyalty is to a faith that predates and promises to outlast our Republic, that was disfavored for much of our history and may be headed into disfavor once again. American anti-Catholicism is far from the worst evil in this nation’s history, but it still instills a special obligation to take critiques of our Anglo-liberal-Protestant inheritance seriously, whether they come from radicals or traditionalists or both.
But when it comes to introducing American history to my own American children, none yet older than 10, I’ve realized that we’re giving them a pretty patriotic education: trips to the battlefield at Concord; books like “Johnny Tremain” and the d’Aulaires’ biographies of Lincoln and Franklin and Pocahontas; incantatory readings of “Paul Revere’s Ride.”
One of my son’s favorite books is an account of Lewis and Clark’s mission that pairs extracts from diaries with vivid illustrations. Laura Ingalls Wilder may have been canceled a few years ago, but she’s a dominant literary figure for our daughters. Lee Greenwood’s “God Bless the U.S.A.” plays in our minivan, and when my eldest daughter tries to win arguments by declaring “I’m a free American!” I let the claim stand, rather than answering her with Catholic critiques of liberal individualism.
I should say that we also deliver doses of realism about slavery and segregation and the importance of seeing history from the perspective of the defeated, from the Tories to the Sioux. (Though many older texts contain those perspectives, however un-P.C. their form; tragic realism is not the exclusive province of the early 21st century.) And we are not home-schoolers; our patriotic education interacts with what our kids learn in school and pick up through osmosis in our progressive state and city.
ADVERTISEMENTBut having written recently about the race-and-history wars, I think it’s worth talking about what makes patriotic education valuable, even if you ultimately want kids to have critical distance from the nation’s sins.
Here I want to disagree mildly with David French, the famous conservative critic of conservatism, who wrote for Time magazine recently chiding parents who are “afraid children will not love their country unless they are taught that their country is good.” The love for country we instill, he argued, shouldn’t rest on American innocence or greatness; rather we should love our country the way we love our family, which means “telling our full story, the good, the bad, and the ugly.”
To which I would say, yes, but … you probably want to feel a certain security in your children’s family bonds before you start telling them about every sin and scandal.
Admittedly there are families where that isn’t possible, as there are political contexts where young kids need to know dark truths upfront. But we aren’t living in Nazi-occupied France, and there is easily enough good in America, past and present, to lay a patriotic foundation, so that more adult forms of knowledge are shaped by a primary sense of loyalty and love.
ADVERTISEMENTMoreover, with families the people you’re supposed to love are usually there with you, and to some extent you can’t help loving them even in their sins. Whereas the nation’s past is more distant, words and names and complicated legacies, not flesh and blood. So if historical education doesn’t begin with what’s inspiring, a sense of real affection may never take root — risking not just patriotism but a basic interest in the past.
I encounter the latter problem a lot, talking to progressive-minded young people — a sense that history isn’t just unlovable but actually pretty boring, a grim slog through imperialism and cisheteropatriarchy.
Whereas if you teach kids first that the past is filled with people who did remarkable, admirable, courageous things — acts of endurance and creation that seem beyond our own capacity — then you can build the awareness of French’s bad-and-ugly organically, filling out the picture through middle and high school, leaving both a love of country and a fascination with the past intact.
And starting with heroism doesn’t just mean starting with white people: From Harriet Tubman to Martin Luther King Jr., the story of the African-American experience is the most straightforwardly heroic American narrative, the natural core of liberal patriotism — something liberalism understood at the time of Barack Obama’s election, but in its revolutionary and pessimistic mood seems in danger of forgetting.
ADVERTISEMENTThis idea of a patriotic foundation hardly eliminates controversy. You still have to figure out at what age and in what way you introduce more detail and more darkness. This is as true for Catholic doubts as for radical critiques: I’m not sure exactly how to frame Roe v. Wade and abortion for my older kids.
In this sense French and others to his left are correct — there is no escape from hard historical truths, no simple way to raise educated Americans.
But still I feel no great difficulty letting my children begin, wherever their education takes them, with the old familiar poetry: Here once the embattled farmers stood / And fired the shot heard round the world.
More on the debate around U.S. historyThe Times is committed to publishing a diversity of letters to the editor. We’d like to hear what you think about this or any of our articles. Here are some tips. And here’s our email: letters@nytimes.com.
Follow The New York Times Opinion section on Facebook, Twitter (@NYTOpinion) and Instagram.
Ross Douthat has been an Opinion columnist for The Times since 2009. He is the author of several books, most recently, “The Decadent Society.” @DouthatNYT • Facebook
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Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
Halifax2TheMax said:I think you could begin teaching concepts and elements of CRT beginning in 5th grade and going right up to 12th. Like most things, its a complicated subject with lots of nuance. Sure, you can focus on the big ticket items like slavery, the civil war, Jim Crow, civil rights movement, BLM, etc. but you also need to teach the how and why those things happened and the what and how the insidious nature of institutional racism was/is created, occurs and what the effects were/are. You can draw direct lines from government policy, law and impacts on minorities and the poor. But it is bigger than just that, its societal (business owner being racist in their hiring practices), education (access/quality, desegregation), corporate America (too many to list), housing/zoning (redlining, development, warehousing, tree canopy/parks), social programs (pro-family versus forced separation) and law enforcement (crime & punishment), among others. Its wide and its deeply rooted. However, you could begin teaching the concept and effects of racism in pre-K, K and grades 1-4, along with more Crispus Attucks and less the rah, rah, rah, USA, USA, USA, history of George Washington and the Cherry Tree, Honest Abe, etc.
Have you ever wondered why the following happen and are true?:
Average life expectancy 2020: White 78; Black 72
Family Net Worth (2016): White $171,000; Black $17,150
Loan denial Rates (2015): White, 10.9%; Black, 27.4%
Refinance denial rate: Industry average, 17.07%; Blacks, 30.22%
Homeownership (2020): White 64.6%; Black 42.1%
Education Attainment, College Graduate or Higher 2020: White 35%, Black 25%
Black Percent of Population: 1980, 11.7%; 2020, 13.4%
Federal Bureau of Prisons Population % (July 2021): White, 57.8%; Black, 38.3%
Death Rate per 100K (2019): White, 736.8; Black, 870.7
These are the effects of institutional racism that US history doesn't speak to or teach about. Tough pill to swallow.
I was thinking about this and 5th grade was the same thing I came up with. I've had experience teaching K through second year college with most of my experience in a 5th/6th grade combo, middle school, and early college. I'm thinking most kids before 5th grade would simply be lost trying to grasp CRT concepts and that the best thing at those younger ages would be to provide as much in the way of multi-cultural experience and having kids play and mix in multicultural environments (easy if they live in S.F. or N.Y, very difficult in many small towns). I was lucky to grow up in a more mixed environment and by the time I was in high school had friends of color who described in detail why it was harder for them and their families to have equal opportunities. A lot of kids don't get that kind of exposure in America. But of course you can't simply create that experience everywhere, so bringing it into a learning environment is the next best thing.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
I'm also kind of thinking I would avoid using the term Critical Race Theory. Or any other term for that matter. Instead I would came to class and say, "OK, today we are going to talk about some of the reasons inequality in America exists and how that relates to racism." I'm not big on buzz words.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
Maybe carve a few days out of the incessantly detailed war histories that are taught? Bunker Hill, Gettysburg, and the Battle of the Bulge are all very interesting topics, but learning about them to the depth I was taught was not necessary or productive...mcgruff10 said:
So where do you teach it? Seems pretty high level to me, perfect for a college level class.Hobbes said:
CRT is not a topic, it is an anti-racist pedagogy. Content and delivery change to become more historically, culturally, and socially appropriate and accurate. An anti-racist pedagogy would be apparent in every facet of the educational system.mcgruff10 said:
I disagree with that. Where would you teach it?Hobbes said:
Proving my point that our education has been whitewashed.mcgruff10 said:
So it hasn’t even been taught yet.Hobbes said:
CRT, an umbrella term for anti-racist curriculum, has been embraced by the National Education Association who just recently voted in support of incorporating it as part of a K-12 pedagogy.mcgruff10 said:
Which from what I read, CRT is only taught in college, not k-12.Hobbes said:
Existed? There's the ignorance and the whitewashed version. CRT focuses not on the explicit racism found in most textbooks, but the social and institutional dynamics that still exist.tempo_n_groove said:
I did. Not so you can tell me that I wasn't taught anything pertaining to CRT. That is ignorant. I have said that I was fortunate enough to learn about the racism that existed throughout our history as a nation.Hobbes said:
We are all ignorant. We have discussions to promote awareness and education. Not only on this forum but in our classrooms. Again, the whole point of introducing CRT as part of the curriculum. You started this thread for a reason, correct?tempo_n_groove said:
I'm ignorant then. Thanks. No point in arguing...Hobbes said:
You were taught CRT in school? Well versed with Du Bois, Fredrick Douglas, Sojourner Truth, and Antonio Gramsci? Derrick Bell and Kimberle Crenshaw? And I'm not angry in the way you may think. I am suggesting you/me/we be more critical of our education. You have claimed luck in receiving a more historically accurate education. I claim that even your education was whitewashed. As was mine. To purport otherwise is ignorant.tempo_n_groove said:
I'm sorry that your education wasn't like mine and you are apparently angry about it. My apologies...Hobbes said:
It was an example. And our education was not taught right no matter how strongly you believe it was.tempo_n_groove said:
So we are cherry picking exact books that weren't taught now? C'mon. If it was taught right it doesn't matter a source that was left out.Hobbes said:
Was Black Reconstruction in America by W.E.B. Du Bois part of your assigned curriculum? Mine neither.tempo_n_groove said:
How does one whitewash reconstruction?Hobbes said:
Whitewashed version. No discredit to you and your efforts to educate your students, but more than likely it was a whitewashed version.mcgruff10 said:
What do you mean they’ve never taught what actually happened?Hobbes said:
They've never taught what actually happened. That's the whole point of CRT.tempo_n_groove said:
You think that they will stop teaching what actually happened? That is nuts and hope that isn't true.mcgruff10 said:Taught 8th grade for sixteen years and every year I would teach reconstruction and the civil rights movement. I wonder if some
of these topics will be a thing of the past in some states.
What I see is that I wasn't taught enough about it to your liking wheras people like Fredrick Douglas were taught to me. We have a boulevard here in NY named after him. Someone like Kimberle Crenshaw was not though. She became popular after my HS years.
Just because every name you mention wasn't taught to me doesn't mean that I wasn't taught about it. I'm learning that I was taught about it more than I thought initially.
It's impossible to make you happy is what I am seeing unless it's all and everything. That is for a college course and not a HS class and that is not white washing.
I see this back and forth between you and I as pointless...And what other topics do you want history teachers to teach? Remember there is only 180 school days a year so you can’t spend too much time on one topic because you have a huge curriculum to get through. Plus if you spend too
much time on a topic kids get bored and tune out.Monkey Driven, Call this Living?0 -
Here is another program that was highlighted by the conservative crowd. I'm currently listening to "Woke Kindergarten" podcast.
https://abolitionistteachingnetwork.org/
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_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
thought this was amusing
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"STOP MAKING MY LITTLE TIMMY FEEL GUILTY FOR SOMETHING HE DIDN'T DO"mcgruff10 said:Taught 8th grade for sixteen years and every year I would teach reconstruction and the civil rights movement. I wonder if some
of these topics will be a thing of the past in some states. A teacher this year received a complaint because a parent thought he spent too much time on lynchings. Like what in the actual fuck. It happened here in the USA, own it.By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.0 -
HughFreakingDillon said:
"STOP MAKING MY LITTLE TIMMY FEEL GUILTY FOR SOMETHING HE DIDN'T DO"mcgruff10 said:Taught 8th grade for sixteen years and every year I would teach reconstruction and the civil rights movement. I wonder if some
of these topics will be a thing of the past in some states. A teacher this year received a complaint because a parent thought he spent too much time on lynchings. Like what in the actual fuck. It happened here in the USA, own it.
which they really mean, stop making ME uncomfortable when Timmy asks question like how I perpetuate this.... how come we have no black or brown friends or neighbors....
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Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
I saw this clip from Bill Maher featuring Ben Shapiro and Malcolm Nance, hoping it would somehow help define just what Critical Race Theory is. I'm convinced more than even that there really is no single, decisive definition of CRT, and that it is generally open to several interpretations. Which, to my way of thinking, makes it all but useless. Watch and see if you agree:
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
brianlux said:I saw this clip from Bill Maher featuring Ben Shapiro and Malcolm Nance, hoping it would somehow help define just what Critical Race Theory is. I'm convinced more than even that there really is no single, decisive definition of CRT, and that it is generally open to several interpretations. Which, to my way of thinking, makes it all but useless. Watch and see if you agree:ummm, use the definition as established by the scholars who developed the theory.so no, its not useless.
Post edited by mickeyrat on_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
CRT should not be taught to anyone who isn't an adult and can logically form an opinion on such a complex subject. And as far as I know, it isn't. That is a right wing fear mongering talking point. it should be taught at the college level which it is.brianlux said:I saw this clip from Bill Maher featuring Ben Shapiro and Malcolm Nance, hoping it would somehow help define just what Critical Race Theory is. I'm convinced more than even that there really is no single, decisive definition of CRT, and that it is generally open to several interpretations. Which, to my way of thinking, makes it all but useless. Watch and see if you agree:
Ben Shapiro is a fucking loon. Bill Maher needs to stop hosting these assholes, but I guess, being an asshole himself, he's gonna do what he's gonna do.
on CRT itself, it is absolutely a valid theory and adults should be exposed to it and realize their white privilege. And stop being afraid of acknowledging that; that doesn't mean you are all of a sudden going to be legally compelled to give up your home to a minority. CRT is a gateway to improving our society as a whole. So of course there's going to be resistance to it from the bigoted right.By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.0 -
HughFreakingDillon said:
CRT should not be taught to anyone who isn't an adult and can logically form an opinion on such a complex subject. And as far as I know, it isn't. That is a right wing fear mongering talking point. it should be taught at the college level which it is.brianlux said:I saw this clip from Bill Maher featuring Ben Shapiro and Malcolm Nance, hoping it would somehow help define just what Critical Race Theory is. I'm convinced more than even that there really is no single, decisive definition of CRT, and that it is generally open to several interpretations. Which, to my way of thinking, makes it all but useless. Watch and see if you agree:
Ben Shapiro is a fucking loon. Bill Maher needs to stop hosting these assholes, but I guess, being an asshole himself, he's gonna do what he's gonna do.
on CRT itself, it is absolutely a valid theory and adults should be exposed to it and realize their white privilege. And stop being afraid of acknowledging that; that doesn't mean you are all of a sudden going to be legally compelled to give up your home to a minority. CRT is a gateway to improving our society as a whole. So of course there's going to be resistance to it from the bigoted right.Ben Shapiro is a fucking loon...with a nice fluffy pillow filled with cash because he is so awesome.0 -
mickeyrat said:brianlux said:I saw this clip from Bill Maher featuring Ben Shapiro and Malcolm Nance, hoping it would somehow help define just what Critical Race Theory is. I'm convinced more than even that there really is no single, decisive definition of CRT, and that it is generally open to several interpretations. Which, to my way of thinking, makes it all but useless. Watch and see if you agree:ummm, use the definition as established by the scholars who developed the theory.so no, its not useless.OK, I'll agree "useless" is not the best descriptor. And yes, I have read that definition and others.But here's the thing, is something important that regards issues related to systemic racism that hasn't been well defined within the culture going to be effective on a practical level? I'm often interested in the established scholarly definition of something important because that's how my interests trend. But a scholarly definition of something, and actions applied in a practical manner that are useful on a social level- those are rarely the same thing. The average person is not going to be as interested in an intellectual understanding of something such as CRT as some of us are. If we can't put something like CRT into a more understandable format in terms besides a highly scholarly definition, then at best you end up with a group of people intellectualizing on a thread like this, or studying in a classroom- all well and good- but not likely to also be making concrete efforts to resolve social problems by practical means that are better defined on a social level.When the black power movement of the late 60's and early 70's was in it's prime, shit was happening. People were getting organized. Attitudes were changing. Lives were improving. There was a good amount of scholarly discussion, of course, but there was a lot of direct action.The problem is, society got lax again, thinking things were OK. You had a certain number of rising black actors and musicians and sports figures being highlighted in ways through the media that made things seems like the problems had been solved. White privilege still kept whites in the driver seat but it was so not obvious and it got overlooked.But the reality of the situation for black and other minority groups being far less privilege began to fester in the public eye again and a new wave of black activism arose. But- and this is just my perspective, I'm no expert- movement toward improving the situation seems less focused today than it had been during the Black Power era. Maybe I'm wrong, and I hope so. I just don't see how a concept that on a social level is as vague as CRT- something that, outside intellectual circles, is not understood well at all- I don't see that hold a lot of high hopes for things moving forward.Of course, I'm not opposed to CRT, I just don't see it as a practical route to solving the racial problems that persist."It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0
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I don't find CRT to be vague; I think the general public are confused by what it actually is because of right wing misinformation fear mongering tactics to do exactly that-keep the public confused so it can't effectively organize.
but honestly, if people really want to know and understand what it is, all they need is an internet connection.By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.0 -
posting videos with bullshit definitions fro. the right is in my view furthering this confusion. at a minimum it isnt helpful .historical fact and evidence shows me this crt, isnt theory.... but reality_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
HughFreakingDillon said:I don't find CRT to be vague; I think the general public are confused by what it actually is because of right wing misinformation fear mongering tactics to do exactly that-keep the public confused so it can't effectively organize.
but honestly, if people really want to know and understand what it is, all they need is an internet connection.Yeah, I hear you, the right wing in general certainly doesn't want progressive movement regarding systemic- often, even, blatant- racism. But by focusing on a theory that is not easily understood by the average person, I think the movement stifles itself. You can't even get a lot of well educated people to agree on the topic, let alone the not-well educated (in the U.S., anyway) average person to grasp the concept.I don't believe I'm alone in this thinking. But rather than argue that point (and why, anyway?), maybe I can suggest there be a focus on a more understandable explanation of CRT. For example, which of these two explanations would be most easily understood by the average person?THIS:Critical race theory (CRT) is a body of legal scholarship and an academic movement of civil-rights scholars and activists in the United States who seek to critically examine the intersection of race and U.S. Law and to challenge mainstream American Liberal approaches to racial justice. CRT examines social, cultural, and legal issues primarily as they relate to race and racism in the Unite States....the basic tenets of CRT include that racism and disparate racial outcomes are the result of complex, changing, and often subtle social and institutional dynamics, rather than explicit and intentional prejudices in individuals. CRT scholars also view race and white supremacy as an intersectional social construction. which serves to uphold the interests of white people at the expense of marginalized communities. In the field of legal studies, CRT emphasizes that merely making laws colorblind on paper may not be enough to make the application of the laws colorblind; ostensibly colorblind laws can be applied in racially discriminatory ways A key CRT concept is Intersectionality which emphasizes that race can intersect with other identities (such as gender and class) to produce complex combinations of power and disadvantage.(And while were at it, lets make sure our grade school kids understand that Intersectionality is "the interconnected nature of social categorizations such as race, class, and gender as they apply to a given individual or group, regarded as creating overlapping and interdependent systems of discrimination or disadvantage.")OR THIS:These super smart scholars identified 5 basic tenets** of Critical Race Theory –the core components.
1. The centrality and intersectionality of racism. Racism exists everywhere in American life –from within our own thoughts, to our personal relationships, to our places of work, to our educational and judicial systems. CRT says that racism isn’t just the actions of individuals but that it’s embedded in our institutions, systems, and culture. It is our way of life.
2. The challenge to dominant ideology. In law and other arenas there is a belief that concepts like neutrality, objectivity, colorblindness, and meritocracy can be fully actualized. CRT says, “not so fast, how can one be truly neutral on issues of race when racism is baked into the fabric of America?” (Ummm, it can’t).
CRT pointed out that claims of objectivity and colorblindeness can be ways in which dominant groups camouflage their interests in order to get what’s best for them—check out housing and education in this country if you don’t believe me.
3. The commitment to social justice. CRT as a framework acknowledges how all oppression interrelates and focuses on eradicating racism and other forms of oppression by centering People of Color and taking a stance on issues of social justice. People of Color have been fighting before this country was formed for justice and this has never stopped in some form or fashion.
4. The importance of experiential knowledge. This is huge y’all, CRT says that the lived experiences of People of Color however expressed (storytelling, family history, biographies, scenarios, parables, cuentos, chronicles, narratives)** are crucial to understanding racism and oppression, that they are necessary in our quest for liberation. From the academic, to legal, to activist arenas lived experience must be taken seriously.
5. The use of an interdisciplinary perspective. CRT draws from many different fields in order to create a powerful and nuanced framework for engaging with race and racism. There is no one answer, no one discipline, no one path to freedom. CRT says let’s use all the tools in the toolbox to help educate folks so we can get free.
Of course CRT is more theoretical then I have described but this is it boiled down at its core. CRT is the education that most of us never got—or we did not get until after we left school. It is an education that values challenging the status quo and prioritizing lived experiences.
"It's a sad and beautiful world"-Roberto Benigni0 -
I've read many a thing from different scholars, writers, observers, etc. My first question I asked when I started this thread was "are teachers teaching it wrong?"
I believe therein lies the problem. Every teacher will have a different take on what it means and express it in their own way and some of it might come out wrong to someone and they will have a problem with it.
They mentioned the scalping of natives here to clear land. I do remember learning about that in HS along w the anti-Chinese act.
History should be taught, not skipped over. Can you teach kids history and let them draw their own conclusions as to why these things happened?
Some good back and forth here everyone.0 -
tempo_n_groove said:I've read many a thing from different scholars, writers, observers, etc. My first question I asked when I started this thread was "are teachers teaching it wrong?"
I believe therein lies the problem. Every teacher will have a different take on what it means and express it in their own way and some of it might come out wrong to someone and they will have a problem with it.
They mentioned the scalping of natives here to clear land. I do remember learning about that in HS along w the anti-Chinese act.
History should be taught, not skipped over. Can you teach kids history and let them draw their own conclusions as to why these things happened?
Some good back and forth here everyone.CRT isnt bring taught in grade or hs.... truer elements of history may be but they are two distinctly different things.CRT is law school shit....._____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140
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