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White Privilege

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  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 1,714
    mace1229 said:
    All this talk about "learning history from statues." Serious question (maybe it should be a poll):  Who actually learned their history from a statue? I mean, I learn history from reading books, from taking classes, from attending lectures. Occasionally I'll go to museum to learn some history of a place while traveling, like a few times in my life, but who in the world can claim they've learned *anything* of deep historical value from walking past a statue? I've always been perplexed by this argument. If America is learning its history from freaking statues, we have a bigger problem than we think.
    You’ve never once walked by a statue and thought “who’s this guy?” And read the plaque under it? 
    Granted, I didn’t learn who the first president was or who wrote the Declaration of Independence from a statue, but many smaller, often local, historical figures.  But I never lived in a city with monuments to national figures either. A few months ago I went to Dallas for the first time and even as an adult I learned a lot about the JFK assassination just by visiting the location and seeing where it happened in person. I know that’s not a statue, but same concept I think.

    I also think more than just learning from a statue, it’s a bigger reminder and taking point. I’m willing to guess most high school kids have no idea who Grant was. If they walked by his statue on a regular basis they’d be more likely to remember. Or give an opportunity to bring him up in discussion.
    If I visit a new place and want to learn about its people, I read plaques on statues if I'm out for a stroll.

    In my hometown, Manassas freaking VA, site of Civil War memorials everywhere, no, I don't need to read the statues. We have schools and streets and neighborhoods named after all these confederate people, whom we learned about ad nauseam my entire K12 years. The actual Manassas museum is a pathetic one-room memorial full of uniforms and weapons. Boring.

    In DC, 30 miles from home where I do stuff on a regular basis, I walk (or drive) by statues all the time and no, I'm usually too focused on my destination to stop and read a plaque. I've lived in this area for 40 of my 50 years, and I have never once been to the top of the Washington Monument. Last school year we took our students on the monuments walking tour offered by the the park service, and 4 of the 7 of them (major ones including the MLK one) were first looks for me. In a city with a monument on every corner, it's easy to think of them as mere decoration. The major ones on the Mall you can't miss, but I couldn't tell you who the guy is on Logan Circle, or any of the other circles, or the smaller statues tucked on lawns in front of buildings.

    There is the part of George Orwell's Animal Farm where things start to go wrong, and one of the first ways readers notice it is Napoleon tells all the other animals it's time to build a statue, to him of course. That's what I think of statues. They are ways that people in power remind everybody else who is in control. 
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,558
    mace1229 said:
    All this talk about "learning history from statues." Serious question (maybe it should be a poll):  Who actually learned their history from a statue? I mean, I learn history from reading books, from taking classes, from attending lectures. Occasionally I'll go to museum to learn some history of a place while traveling, like a few times in my life, but who in the world can claim they've learned *anything* of deep historical value from walking past a statue? I've always been perplexed by this argument. If America is learning its history from freaking statues, we have a bigger problem than we think.
    You’ve never once walked by a statue and thought “who’s this guy?” And read the plaque under it? 
    Granted, I didn’t learn who the first president was or who wrote the Declaration of Independence from a statue, but many smaller, often local, historical figures.  But I never lived in a city with monuments to national figures either. A few months ago I went to Dallas for the first time and even as an adult I learned a lot about the JFK assassination just by visiting the location and seeing where it happened in person. I know that’s not a statue, but same concept I think.

    I also think more than just learning from a statue, it’s a bigger reminder and taking point. I’m willing to guess most high school kids have no idea who Grant was. If they walked by his statue on a regular basis they’d be more likely to remember. Or give an opportunity to bring him up in discussion.
    If I visit a new place and want to learn about its people, I read plaques on statues if I'm out for a stroll.

    In my hometown, Manassas freaking VA, site of Civil War memorials everywhere, no, I don't need to read the statues. We have schools and streets and neighborhoods named after all these confederate people, whom we learned about ad nauseam my entire K12 years. The actual Manassas museum is a pathetic one-room memorial full of uniforms and weapons. Boring.

    In DC, 30 miles from home where I do stuff on a regular basis, I walk (or drive) by statues all the time and no, I'm usually too focused on my destination to stop and read a plaque. I've lived in this area for 40 of my 50 years, and I have never once been to the top of the Washington Monument. Last school year we took our students on the monuments walking tour offered by the the park service, and 4 of the 7 of them (major ones including the MLK one) were first looks for me. In a city with a monument on every corner, it's easy to think of them as mere decoration. The major ones on the Mall you can't miss, but I couldn't tell you who the guy is on Logan Circle, or any of the other circles, or the smaller statues tucked on lawns in front of buildings.

    There is the part of George Orwell's Animal Farm where things start to go wrong, and one of the first ways readers notice it is Napoleon tells all the other animals it's time to build a statue, to him of course. That's what I think of statues. They are ways that people in power remind everybody else who is in control. 
    it's time to build a statue, to him of course

    This is in an episode of The Twilight zone too!

    As for statues I would read them and was curious about them.  Good plaques have a history of what the person did.  Bad ones will just have a name.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,553
    “Many are concerned about the monuments of the West and the East — to know who built them. For my part, I should like to know who in those days did not build them — who were above such trifling.”
    –Henry David Thoreau, Walden (1854)
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 20,885
    as seen in response to comment (basically pinko commies finally forced this vote)on an article about Mississippi voting to change it flag.....

    the reply

    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 24,955
    mickeyrat said:
    as seen in response to comment (basically pinko commies finally forced this vote)on an article about Mississippi voting to change it flag.....

    the reply

    Sherman was a baaaaaad dude.  Scorched earth policy.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 20,885
    Reenactment of an 1852 speech from Fredrick Douglas about July 4th. Speaks very well to white privilege among other things.....



    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • DewieCoxDewieCox Posts: 10,943
    Statues don’t educate, they indoctrinate. 

    How many of these people complaining about statue removal would be ok with accurate explanations of their presence?
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 20,885
    DewieCox said:
    Statues don’t educate, they indoctrinate. 

    How many of these people complaining about statue removal would be ok with accurate explanations of their presence?
    my compromise includes that. a year or so before a decision is made about removal,  a plaque is placed providing an accurate unvarnished history of said person.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 20,885
    I believe a major part of the problem is how our history is taught. A read of the unabridged A Peoples History, compared with where we really are, makes complete sense.

    History as taught, from the hip slick and cool shiny brochure, leads most I believe to the false idea that we're nearer the ideal or actually there than where we really are which is no where close to that ideal.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 25,938
    All this talk about "learning history from statues." Serious question (maybe it should be a poll):  Who actually learned their history from a statue? I mean, I learn history from reading books, from taking classes, from attending lectures. Occasionally I'll go to museum to learn some history of a place while traveling, like a few times in my life, but who in the world can claim they've learned *anything* of deep historical value from walking past a statue? I've always been perplexed by this argument. If America is learning its history from freaking statues, we have a bigger problem than we think.
    I have. i walk by statues and monument and read them all, time permitting. now, i'm not suggesting this is a viable argument to keep statues of terrible people. we can learn about them in other ways. but it is a correct statement to say that people learn from statues. 
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 23,165
    As I think about it, I had zero problems with Saddam’s statue being destroyed, so I’ve not much room to speak against defacing them. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 25,938
    hedonist said:
    As I think about it, I had zero problems with Saddam’s statue being destroyed, so I’ve not much room to speak against defacing them. 
    i thought that was despicable how the american soldiers were involved and put an american flag over his face. it was supposed to be about iraq and the iraqi people. it never was, and it showed by that singular act. 
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 23,165
    hedonist said: hug
    As I think about it, I had zero problems with Saddam’s statue being destroyed, so I’ve not much room to speak against defacing them. 
    i thought that was despicable how the american soldiers were involved and put an american flag over his face. it was supposed to be about iraq and the iraqi people. it never was, and it showed by that singular act. 
    Not cool, and while detailed recollection of those events is beyond me, I’m reading that Iraqi citizens decapitated and destroyed the statue. So it seems both were involved?
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 25,938
    hedonist said:
    hedonist said: hug
    As I think about it, I had zero problems with Saddam’s statue being destroyed, so I’ve not much room to speak against defacing them. 
    i thought that was despicable how the american soldiers were involved and put an american flag over his face. it was supposed to be about iraq and the iraqi people. it never was, and it showed by that singular act. 
    Not cool, and while detailed recollection of those events is beyond me, I’m reading that Iraqi citizens decapitated and destroyed the statue. So it seems both were involved?
    they were. it was just the act of the americans putting an american flag over his face that bothered me. an iraqi citizen who was there handed the soldier an iraqi flag to put over his face instead. 
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,022
    mickeyrat said:
    DewieCox said:
    Statues don’t educate, they indoctrinate. 

    How many of these people complaining about statue removal would be ok with accurate explanations of their presence?
    my compromise includes that. a year or so before a decision is made about removal,  a plaque is placed providing an accurate unvarnished history of said person.

    Seems like a reasonable compromise.  I also think the idea of putting the statues in a museum isn't a bad idea.
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 12,065
    That’s a lot of museum space for what is often pretty sub-standard “art”, particularly those in the all too large genre of dead white men on horses. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 12,065
    Dead white men looking stern takes up a lot of space, too. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 25,938
    :lol:
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • JimmyVJimmyV Boston's MetroWestPosts: 14,982
    I like the way we commemorate Benedict Arnold at Saratoga. 
     
    https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/boot-monument
    ___________________________________________

    "...I changed by not changing at all..."
  • DewieCoxDewieCox Posts: 10,943
    mickeyrat said:
    I believe a major part of the problem is how our history is taught. A read of the unabridged A Peoples History, compared with where we really are, makes complete sense.

    History as taught, from the hip slick and cool shiny brochure, leads most I believe to the false idea that we're nearer the ideal or actually there than where we really are which is no where close to that ideal.
    Absolutely!! People are so willing to totally buy into some crazy conspiracy theory revolving around major points in history, but won’t entertain the idea that maybe what we have been taught, which has been heavily regulated by the government, may be absurdly biased. Many will turn their nose up at varying worldwide perspectives or something they simply doesn’t align with what they were taught...we’re seeing history in action on that one...It’s hard to confront your own ignorance. I know from experience. 

    I get into chats with older folks and they’re in total disbelief  when I point out how more accurate info is more easily  accessible than ever, even when they’re being afeeeavle . 

    Interesting to see how something like the Holocaust is taught in German schools. We could really  use a dose of that. 

    For me, there should be plenty to be proud of without kid gloves treatment. Sometimes things are ugly and sometimes people fuck up and times change and hopefully people get better. Always bugs me when people say “kids have it so easy these days”. That’s the whole fucking point. Sorry for the side  rant, just got rollin. 
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,558
    Why is it that white middle aged women in expensive cars think that they own the road?

    Is that Privilege?
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 23,165
    edited August 2020
    Why is it that white middle aged women in expensive cars think that they own the road?

    Is that Privilege?
    I’ve seen selfish or otherwise asshole-ish drivers of every race and gender. And car. 

    Plus we all know that women can’t drive for shit ;)
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,558
    hedonist said:
    Why is it that white middle aged women in expensive cars think that they own the road?

    Is that Privilege?
    I’ve seen selfish or otherwise asshole-ish drivers of every race and gender. And car. 

    Plus we all know that women can’t drive for shit ;)
    Not trying to be a richard here but the past week I have had some run ins w some awful people all whom I described above. 
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,022
    hedonist said:
    Why is it that white middle aged women in expensive cars think that they own the road?

    Is that Privilege?
    I’ve seen selfish or otherwise asshole-ish drivers of every race and gender. And car. 

    Plus we all know that women can’t drive for shit ;)
    Not trying to be a richard here but the past week I have had some run ins w some awful people all whom I described above. 

    Is a "richard" the male version on a "karen"?

    hedonist said:
    Why is it that white middle aged women in expensive cars think that they own the road?

    Is that Privilege?
    I’ve seen selfish or otherwise asshole-ish drivers of every race and gender. And car. 

    Plus we all know that women can’t drive for shit ;)

    Haha!  My mother was the Mario Andretti of the everyday road. 

    And my wife?  And one time I followed C. home in a separate car (I guess a separate car would be a necessity, huh?) and it totally cracked me up.  When we're riding together, she gently scratches my leg which is her signal to "slow down".  But when I followed her?  Bat out of hell!  :lol:
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,558
    brianlux said:
    hedonist said:
    Why is it that white middle aged women in expensive cars think that they own the road?

    Is that Privilege?
    I’ve seen selfish or otherwise asshole-ish drivers of every race and gender. And car. 

    Plus we all know that women can’t drive for shit ;)
    Not trying to be a richard here but the past week I have had some run ins w some awful people all whom I described above. 

    Is a "richard" the male version on a "karen"?

    hedonist said:
    Why is it that white middle aged women in expensive cars think that they own the road?

    Is that Privilege?
    I’ve seen selfish or otherwise asshole-ish drivers of every race and gender. And car. 

    Plus we all know that women can’t drive for shit ;)

    Haha!  My mother was the Mario Andretti of the everyday road. 

    And my wife?  And one time I followed C. home in a separate car (I guess a separate car would be a necessity, huh?) and it totally cracked me up.  When we're riding together, she gently scratches my leg which is her signal to "slow down".  But when I followed her?  Bat out of hell!  :lol:
    lol, I was  refraining from writing the word "dick".

    hahahahaha
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 34,022
    brianlux said:
    hedonist said:
    Why is it that white middle aged women in expensive cars think that they own the road?

    Is that Privilege?
    I’ve seen selfish or otherwise asshole-ish drivers of every race and gender. And car. 

    Plus we all know that women can’t drive for shit ;)
    Not trying to be a richard here but the past week I have had some run ins w some awful people all whom I described above. 

    Is a "richard" the male version on a "karen"?

    hedonist said:
    Why is it that white middle aged women in expensive cars think that they own the road?

    Is that Privilege?
    I’ve seen selfish or otherwise asshole-ish drivers of every race and gender. And car. 

    Plus we all know that women can’t drive for shit ;)

    Haha!  My mother was the Mario Andretti of the everyday road. 

    And my wife?  And one time I followed C. home in a separate car (I guess a separate car would be a necessity, huh?) and it totally cracked me up.  When we're riding together, she gently scratches my leg which is her signal to "slow down".  But when I followed her?  Bat out of hell!  :lol:
    lol, I was  refraining from writing the word "dick".

    hahahahaha

    Good one!  :lol: 
    “In all human affairs there are efforts, and there are results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result.”
    -James Allen










  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 3,670
    brianlux said:
    hedonist said:
    Why is it that white middle aged women in expensive cars think that they own the road?

    Is that Privilege?
    I’ve seen selfish or otherwise asshole-ish drivers of every race and gender. And car. 

    Plus we all know that women can’t drive for shit ;)
    Not trying to be a richard here but the past week I have had some run ins w some awful people all whom I described above. 

    Is a "richard" the male version on a "karen"?

    hedonist said:
    Why is it that white middle aged women in expensive cars think that they own the road?

    Is that Privilege?
    I’ve seen selfish or otherwise asshole-ish drivers of every race and gender. And car. 

    Plus we all know that women can’t drive for shit ;)

    Haha!  My mother was the Mario Andretti of the everyday road. 

    And my wife?  And one time I followed C. home in a separate car (I guess a separate car would be a necessity, huh?) and it totally cracked me up.  When we're riding together, she gently scratches my leg which is her signal to "slow down".  But when I followed her?  Bat out of hell!  :lol:
    lol, I was  refraining from writing the word "dick".

    hahahahaha

    ...and he tricked you into writing it... #3Dchess
    1995 Milwaukee
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  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 26,558
    OnWis97 said:
    brianlux said:
    hedonist said:
    Why is it that white middle aged women in expensive cars think that they own the road?

    Is that Privilege?
    I’ve seen selfish or otherwise asshole-ish drivers of every race and gender. And car. 

    Plus we all know that women can’t drive for shit ;)
    Not trying to be a richard here but the past week I have had some run ins w some awful people all whom I described above. 

    Is a "richard" the male version on a "karen"?

    hedonist said:
    Why is it that white middle aged women in expensive cars think that they own the road?

    Is that Privilege?
    I’ve seen selfish or otherwise asshole-ish drivers of every race and gender. And car. 

    Plus we all know that women can’t drive for shit ;)

    Haha!  My mother was the Mario Andretti of the everyday road. 

    And my wife?  And one time I followed C. home in a separate car (I guess a separate car would be a necessity, huh?) and it totally cracked me up.  When we're riding together, she gently scratches my leg which is her signal to "slow down".  But when I followed her?  Bat out of hell!  :lol:
    lol, I was  refraining from writing the word "dick".

    hahahahaha

    ...and he tricked you into writing it... #3Dchess
    Yeah at this point I didn't care, it was more fun to let the joke out.
  • hedonisthedonist standing on the edge of foreverPosts: 23,165
    edited August 2020
    hedonist said:
    Why is it that white middle aged women in expensive cars think that they own the road?

    Is that Privilege?
    I’ve seen selfish or otherwise asshole-ish drivers of every race and gender. And car. 

    Plus we all know that women can’t drive for shit ;)
    Not trying to be a richard here but the past week I have had some run ins w some awful people all whom I described above. 
    Try driving in LA! Seriously, we take the fucking cake.

    Bill Burr did a wonderful and hilarious series of him driving around the city berating people who shouldn’t be behind the wheel (my own mother included). 

    *Edited to clarify that my mom was not featured by Bill, just that she shouldn’t be driving anymore. 
    Post edited by hedonist on
  • dankinddankind I am not your foot. Posts: 17,605

    I SAW PEARL JAM
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