White Privilege

brianlux

mace1229 said:

I do think it’s a shame to destroy statues that are 100+ years old. But if a large population is taking offensive to it them I would agree a museum is better than destroying them. Maybe reinstate them in public was race relations are better.

If I remember right, a few years ago a statue honoring the average confederate soldier was destroyed. Most confederates were poor and didn’t own slaves, I see nothing wrong with honoring all who died.

I also believe founding fathers should still have public memorials, even if they owned slaves. None were perfect, and I believe in honoring and remembering them. No one has suggested tearing down the pyramids because they were built by slaves and honor Pharos who owned thousands of slaves. Same with pretty much nations/empireA up until 1800.  I don’t think we should remove statues and monuments honoring Jefferson and Washington and the like.

"I can dig it, dude."

rgambs

Statues don't exist to remember history, they exist to memorialize history.  That's a pretty big difference. 

static111

https://twitter.com/gunsdownamerica/status/1272737508996988928?s=21

white privilege is shooting someone and being safely arrested by the police.

g under p

https://mobile.twitter.com/spulliam/status/1272695595384418308?s=19

Atlanta megachurch pastor Louie Giglio wants to use the phrase "white blessing" instead of "white privilege."

 "We understand the curse that was slavery ... but we miss the blessing of slavery that it actually built up the framework for the world that white people live in."

Now some are speaking out that slavery was a blessing, where do we go from here?

Peace

hedonist

rgambs said:

Statues don't exist to remember history, they exist to memorialize history.  That's a pretty big difference. 

Thanks for the input, all.  I was genuinely curious and figured there are aspects I may be missing or am / were unaware of.

static111

g under p said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/spulliam/status/1272695595384418308?s=19

Atlanta megachurch pastor Louie Giglio wants to use the phrase "white blessing" instead of "white privilege."

 "We understand the curse that was slavery ... but we miss the blessing of slavery that it actually built up the framework for the world that white people live in."

Now some are speaking out that slavery was a blessing, where do we go from here?

Peace

Just heard a good statement from Micheal Eric Dyson about this particular subject.  To paraphrase he was basically incredulous that a pastor could think that it was a blessing to be white, because that is basically saying that god has chosen and “blessed” white people Above all others even after chattel slavery. 

It’s unbelievable the lies people will tell themselves to justify their bullshit world view.

cutz

https://youtu.be/DOhM48E43Ww

I am a patriot

hedonist said:

I wonder if these statues and the like should remain, to serve as reminders?  I mean, you can't erase history just by beheading a statue or defacing a (now-defunct) monument.  Why not let it serve a useful, educational purpose in the now?

Kinda parallels what I lived as a kid - "Where do you learn good manners?  From the impolite."

(And those types of sentences infuriate me!)

I think the sight of a statue or monument gives the impression that this person was important and did great things.  For example, there's a statue of Arthur Ashe alongside Confederate Generals in Richmond. To the average person, they'd think those individuals are on par with one another. Clearly over time young children grow to be adults and believe this to be the case.

The narrative has to be clear - the Confederacy didn't make a mistake, they purposefully and intentionally waged war on the United States of America in the name of slavery. They should have been punished for this, instead, the folks in those states planted the seeds that would contine to infect this country 150 years later.

riotgrl

Statues are meant to honor and memorialize, not educate.  As a lifelong resident of the south, these are people who believe the Confederacy is their heritage.  The underlying and subtle racism that has always and continues to exist (everywhere) but especially in the south makes those statues a continued danger to vulnerable populations.  To keep them up allows whites to continue to believe the Confederacy was fighting for their way of life (of course, they never acknowledge that their way of life was dependent on slavery) rather than educating them that their ancestors were slaveholders or wanted to be slaveholders.  It diminishes the fact that many of these same people still hold deeply ingrained racist beliefs.  I was never taught this by word but for the longest time I had the belief that if black or brown people moved into my neighborhood then property values would decline.  I am ashamed to admit that but I do believe that it is necessary for whites to examine their beliefs and confront those that are racist.  That belief, I have now discovered, is pretty widely held by whites and is a direct result of systemic and structural racism, via redlining.  We need stronger curriculum in the schools that widely condemns these actions not a curriculum that glorifies it or glosses it over.  Many people my age, and even some that are younger, were taught that the Civil War was the War of Northern Aggression.  That's glorification.  We need nation wide history standards that address the positive contributions of people other than rich, white men.  

I understand that some of my friends and family believe that removing a statue is sanitizing history but these are the same people that hold, and refuse to acknowledge, that they hold racist beliefs. These are people that think they aren't racist simply because they have never used the N word.  I will just say my timeline has been filled the last few days about the Aunt Jemima controversy and many seem to think they are defending a black person.

riotgrl

I will also add in regards to education that many people I know, highly educated people for that matter, do not believe that the Civil War was fought over slavery.  They will gladly tell you that the war was fought over states' rights.  Their refusal to see that the states' right in question was slavery is directly related to their learning of a poor history curriculum.  As a history teacher in Kentucky, I try very hard to teach these things but living in KY means that there is parental push back when you don't honor the ones that they think are most important.  Texas history curriculum leads the textbook materials and Texas has some pretty misguided thoughts about the history that should be taught.  This is one of the reasons that I no longer use a textbook to teach but predominantly use primary sources so that students can see for themselves that nearly every secession document directly states that slavery was the cause of the war.

I am a patriot

riotgrl said:

Statues are meant to honor and memorialize, not educate.  As a lifelong resident of the south, these are people who believe the Confederacy is their heritage.  The underlying and subtle racism that has always and continues to exist (everywhere) but especially in the south makes those statues a continued danger to vulnerable populations.  To keep them up allows whites to continue to believe the Confederacy was fighting for their way of life (of course, they never acknowledge that their way of life was dependent on slavery) rather than educating them that their ancestors were slaveholders or wanted to be slaveholders.  It diminishes the fact that many of these same people still hold deeply ingrained racist beliefs.  I was never taught this by word but for the longest time I had the belief that if black or brown people moved into my neighborhood then property values would decline.  I am ashamed to admit that but I do believe that it is necessary for whites to examine their beliefs and confront those that are racist.  That belief, I have now discovered, is pretty widely held by whites and is a direct result of systemic and structural racism, via redlining.  We need stronger curriculum in the schools that widely condemns these actions not a curriculum that glorifies it or glosses it over.  Many people my age, and even some that are younger, were taught that the Civil War was the War of Northern Aggression.  That's glorification.  We need nation wide history standards that address the positive contributions of people other than rich, white men.  

I understand that some of my friends and family believe that removing a statue is sanitizing history but these are the same people that hold, and refuse to acknowledge, that they hold racist beliefs. These are people that think they aren't racist simply because they have never used the N word.  I will just say my timeline has been filled the last few days about the Aunt Jemima controversy and many seem to think they are defending a black person.

Tl:dr

From the mouth of the VP of the Confederacy in his Cornerstone Speech -

 "...The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics. Their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails. I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds, we should, ultimately, succeed, and that he and his associates, in this crusade against our institutions, would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as it was in physics and mechanics, I admitted; but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal.

In the conflict thus far, success has been on our side, complete throughout the length and breadth of the Confederate States. It is upon this, as I have stated, our social fabric is firmly planted; and I cannot permit myself to doubt the ultimate success of a full recognition of this principle throughout the civilized and enlightened world..."

This is what folks don't understand about their heritage. I was not taught this in school. I had to learn it independently.  You're right in that simply not saying the N word doesn't make a person not a racist.  It is this foundation that is spoken behind closed doors from parent to child and grows with the child who then has no idea where this idea came from. 

Glorified KC

Robert E. Lee opposed Confederate monuments:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments

“I think it wiser,” the retired military leader wrote about a proposed Gettysburg memorial in 1869, “…not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.”

“It’s often forgotten that Lee himself, after the Civil War, opposed monuments, specifically Confederate war monuments,” said Jonathan Horn, the author of the Lee biography, “The Man Who Would Not Be Washington.”

“As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated,” Lee wrote of an 1866 proposal, “my conviction is, that however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt in the present condition of the Country, would have the effect of retarding, instead of accelerating its accomplishment; [and] of continuing, if not adding to, the difficulties under which the Southern people labour.”

brianlux

riotgrl said:

I will also add in regards to education that many people I know, highly educated people for that matter, do not believe that the Civil War was fought over slavery.  They will gladly tell you that the war was fought over states' rights.  Their refusal to see that the states' right in question was slavery is directly related to their learning of a poor history curriculum.  As a history teacher in Kentucky, I try very hard to teach these things but living in KY means that there is parental push back when you don't honor the ones that they think are most important.  Texas history curriculum leads the textbook materials and Texas has some pretty misguided thoughts about the history that should be taught.  This is one of the reasons that I no longer use a textbook to teach but predominantly use primary sources so that students can see for themselves that nearly every secession document directly states that slavery was the cause of the war.

Well done riotgrl!

To many of us, it is pretty obvious that the civil war was fought over slavery.  I would add, however (and no doubt you know this), that this doesn't mean that the north was totally righteous or blameless in this war.  For some in the north- especially the wealthy- it was also about money and power.  There were many northerners who didn't really care about slavery, some who supported it, and some who actually were slave owners themselves. 

So the north won and slavery was ended, and yet the disparity and racism continues on.  It's time we move on from just giving lip service to equality or for us whites to simply try to relieve ourselves of historic guilt by giving money or whatever (although done right, of course, giving is always a good thing), but also to ingrain in our culture a true sense of equality and strong self reliance along with interdependence among all.  Wouldn't it be great if some day we could take it for granted that all races are seen as equals because they are, in fact, equal by the very nature of our culture?  I don't know that I'll live long enough to see that happen, but I hope it does.

riotgrl

brianlux said:

riotgrl said:

I will also add in regards to education that many people I know, highly educated people for that matter, do not believe that the Civil War was fought over slavery.  They will gladly tell you that the war was fought over states' rights.  Their refusal to see that the states' right in question was slavery is directly related to their learning of a poor history curriculum.  As a history teacher in Kentucky, I try very hard to teach these things but living in KY means that there is parental push back when you don't honor the ones that they think are most important.  Texas history curriculum leads the textbook materials and Texas has some pretty misguided thoughts about the history that should be taught.  This is one of the reasons that I no longer use a textbook to teach but predominantly use primary sources so that students can see for themselves that nearly every secession document directly states that slavery was the cause of the war.

Well done riotgrl!

To many of us, it is pretty obvious that the civil war was fought over slavery.  I would add, however (and no doubt you know this), that this doesn't mean that the north was totally righteous or blameless in this war.  For some in the north- especially the wealthy- it was also about money and power.  There were many northerners who didn't really care about slavery, some who supported it, and some who actually were slave owners themselves. 

So the north won and slavery was ended, and yet the disparity and racism continues on.  It's time we move on from just giving lip service to equality or for us whites to simply try to relieve ourselves of historic guilt by giving money or whatever (although done right, of course, giving is always a good thing), but also to ingrain in our culture a true sense of equality and strong self reliance along with interdependence among all.  Wouldn't it be great if some day we could take it for granted that all races are seen as equals because they are, in fact, equal by the very nature of our culture?  I don't know that I'll live long enough to see that happen, but I hope it does.

Exactly right, the North was definitely not blameless.  I am currently reading Understanding and Dismantling Racism written by a white man for whites through the lens of history.  I definitely think every white person should read this book.

F Me In The Brain

riotgrl said:

brianlux said:

riotgrl said:

I will also add in regards to education that many people I know, highly educated people for that matter, do not believe that the Civil War was fought over slavery.  They will gladly tell you that the war was fought over states' rights.  Their refusal to see that the states' right in question was slavery is directly related to their learning of a poor history curriculum.  As a history teacher in Kentucky, I try very hard to teach these things but living in KY means that there is parental push back when you don't honor the ones that they think are most important.  Texas history curriculum leads the textbook materials and Texas has some pretty misguided thoughts about the history that should be taught.  This is one of the reasons that I no longer use a textbook to teach but predominantly use primary sources so that students can see for themselves that nearly every secession document directly states that slavery was the cause of the war.

Well done riotgrl!

To many of us, it is pretty obvious that the civil war was fought over slavery.  I would add, however (and no doubt you know this), that this doesn't mean that the north was totally righteous or blameless in this war.  For some in the north- especially the wealthy- it was also about money and power.  There were many northerners who didn't really care about slavery, some who supported it, and some who actually were slave owners themselves. 

So the north won and slavery was ended, and yet the disparity and racism continues on.  It's time we move on from just giving lip service to equality or for us whites to simply try to relieve ourselves of historic guilt by giving money or whatever (although done right, of course, giving is always a good thing), but also to ingrain in our culture a true sense of equality and strong self reliance along with interdependence among all.  Wouldn't it be great if some day we could take it for granted that all races are seen as equals because they are, in fact, equal by the very nature of our culture?  I don't know that I'll live long enough to see that happen, but I hope it does.

Exactly right, the North was definitely not blameless.  I am currently reading Understanding and Dismantling Racism written by a white man for whites through the lens of history.  I definitely think every white person should read this book.








Isn't part of what we are learning now that we should be reading Understanding Racism, written by Non-white people?

brianlux

riotgrl said:

brianlux said:

riotgrl said:

I will also add in regards to education that many people I know, highly educated people for that matter, do not believe that the Civil War was fought over slavery.  They will gladly tell you that the war was fought over states' rights.  Their refusal to see that the states' right in question was slavery is directly related to their learning of a poor history curriculum.  As a history teacher in Kentucky, I try very hard to teach these things but living in KY means that there is parental push back when you don't honor the ones that they think are most important.  Texas history curriculum leads the textbook materials and Texas has some pretty misguided thoughts about the history that should be taught.  This is one of the reasons that I no longer use a textbook to teach but predominantly use primary sources so that students can see for themselves that nearly every secession document directly states that slavery was the cause of the war.

Well done riotgrl!

To many of us, it is pretty obvious that the civil war was fought over slavery.  I would add, however (and no doubt you know this), that this doesn't mean that the north was totally righteous or blameless in this war.  For some in the north- especially the wealthy- it was also about money and power.  There were many northerners who didn't really care about slavery, some who supported it, and some who actually were slave owners themselves. 

So the north won and slavery was ended, and yet the disparity and racism continues on.  It's time we move on from just giving lip service to equality or for us whites to simply try to relieve ourselves of historic guilt by giving money or whatever (although done right, of course, giving is always a good thing), but also to ingrain in our culture a true sense of equality and strong self reliance along with interdependence among all.  Wouldn't it be great if some day we could take it for granted that all races are seen as equals because they are, in fact, equal by the very nature of our culture?  I don't know that I'll live long enough to see that happen, but I hope it does.

Exactly right, the North was definitely not blameless.  I am currently reading Understanding and Dismantling Racism written by a white man for whites through the lens of history.  I definitely think every white person should read this book.

I'll keep an eye out for it, thanks!

riotgrl

F Me In The Brain said:

riotgrl said:

brianlux said:

riotgrl said:

I will also add in regards to education that many people I know, highly educated people for that matter, do not believe that the Civil War was fought over slavery.  They will gladly tell you that the war was fought over states' rights.  Their refusal to see that the states' right in question was slavery is directly related to their learning of a poor history curriculum.  As a history teacher in Kentucky, I try very hard to teach these things but living in KY means that there is parental push back when you don't honor the ones that they think are most important.  Texas history curriculum leads the textbook materials and Texas has some pretty misguided thoughts about the history that should be taught.  This is one of the reasons that I no longer use a textbook to teach but predominantly use primary sources so that students can see for themselves that nearly every secession document directly states that slavery was the cause of the war.

Well done riotgrl!

To many of us, it is pretty obvious that the civil war was fought over slavery.  I would add, however (and no doubt you know this), that this doesn't mean that the north was totally righteous or blameless in this war.  For some in the north- especially the wealthy- it was also about money and power.  There were many northerners who didn't really care about slavery, some who supported it, and some who actually were slave owners themselves. 

So the north won and slavery was ended, and yet the disparity and racism continues on.  It's time we move on from just giving lip service to equality or for us whites to simply try to relieve ourselves of historic guilt by giving money or whatever (although done right, of course, giving is always a good thing), but also to ingrain in our culture a true sense of equality and strong self reliance along with interdependence among all.  Wouldn't it be great if some day we could take it for granted that all races are seen as equals because they are, in fact, equal by the very nature of our culture?  I don't know that I'll live long enough to see that happen, but I hope it does.

Exactly right, the North was definitely not blameless.  I am currently reading Understanding and Dismantling Racism written by a white man for whites through the lens of history.  I definitely think every white person should read this book.








Isn't part of what we are learning now that we should be reading Understanding Racism, written by Non-white people?

Yes, of course.  We should listen to POC and their experiences about living as a POC.  We should understand that their experiences are true and real and what they live.  The premise of this book is not about those experiences but about the power and privilege of being white in America.  He doesn't even attempt to talk about the lived experiences of black people.  In this book he attempts to break down racism, not as an individual prejudice but that racism is the power structure and that it was created by and for whites.  That this power is baked into our very institutions and  we benefit from it and POC are oppressed by it.  Its about teaching whites that there really is white power and white privilege and that we benefit from it and he lays out exactly how we benefit from it.  Considering the sheer number of white people that deny that this is true, I think it is an incredibly important part of dismantling racism in this country to understand that we benefit just by the very color of our skin.  Clearly, we can see that being exposed to the experiences of POC (police brutality for instance) hasn't been enough to break the back of white power so far and that is because white people are afraid of losing their privileged positions.

Bentleyspop

This admittedly "rich white christian male" doesn't  believe there is white privilege....

Michigan candidate's daughter urges people not to vote for him in viral tweet |https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/504615-michigan-candidates-daughter-urges-people-not-to-vote-for-him-in-viral

what dreams

All this talk about "learning history from statues." Serious question (maybe it should be a poll):  Who actually learned their history from a statue? I mean, I learn history from reading books, from taking classes, from attending lectures. Occasionally I'll go to museum to learn some history of a place while traveling, like a few times in my life, but who in the world can claim they've learned *anything* of deep historical value from walking past a statue? I've always been perplexed by this argument. If America is learning its history from freaking statues, we have a bigger problem than we think.

mace1229

what dreams said:

All this talk about "learning history from statues." Serious question (maybe it should be a poll):  Who actually learned their history from a statue? I mean, I learn history from reading books, from taking classes, from attending lectures. Occasionally I'll go to museum to learn some history of a place while traveling, like a few times in my life, but who in the world can claim they've learned *anything* of deep historical value from walking past a statue? I've always been perplexed by this argument. If America is learning its history from freaking statues, we have a bigger problem than we think.

You’ve never once walked by a statue and thought “who’s this guy?” And read the plaque under it? 

Granted, I didn’t learn who the first president was or who wrote the Declaration of Independence from a statue, but many smaller, often local, historical figures.  But I never lived in a city with monuments to national figures either. A few months ago I went to Dallas for the first time and even as an adult I learned a lot about the JFK assassination just by visiting the location and seeing where it happened in person. I know that’s not a statue, but same concept I think.

I also think more than just learning from a statue, it’s a bigger reminder and taking point. I’m willing to guess most high school kids have no idea who Grant was. If they walked by his statue on a regular basis they’d be more likely to remember. Or give an opportunity to bring him up in discussion.