i couldn’t be prouder for how most people here handled the virus. It’s far from over, but wow. NYC really came a long way.
From the worst in the USA to the best. I was sad seeing Governor Cuomo’s last daily briefing today... feel like he has held my hand for the past 111 days. And now Phase 2 on Monday and I’m allowed to work again, got approved for 10-12:30 slot at my office. Scary! I’ve been home since March 12th.
i couldn’t be prouder for how most people here handled the virus. It’s far from over, but wow. NYC really came a long way.
From the worst in the USA to the best. I was sad seeing Governor Cuomo’s last daily briefing today... feel like he has held my hand for the past 111 days. And now Phase 2 on Monday and I’m allowed to work again, got approved for 10-12:30 slot at my office. Scary! I’ve been home since March 12th.
What am I missing? It says "Last updated on June 19, 2020"
Either way, too damn many new cases!
It actually went over 33,500. Numerous public cases announced today. Many Pro baseball players and hockey and one pro golfer, most with connections to Florida. MLB shuts down 3 training camps and may have to shut them all. I’m from NY and when we were under the gun in March there were no pro athletes testing positive, at least publicly known.
And the president feels fine and is having an indoor arena rally later today. Masks not recommended. There is something wrong with America. We may all be forced to get covid. Thanks gop.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,267
What am I missing? It says "Last updated on June 19, 2020"
Either way, too damn many new cases!
It actually went over 33,500. Numerous public cases announced today. Many Pro baseball players and hockey and one pro golfer, most with connections to Florida. MLB shuts down 3 training camps and may have to shut them all. I’m from NY and when we were under the gun in March there were no pro athletes testing positive, at least publicly known.
And the president feels fine and is having an indoor arena rally later today. Masks not recommended. There is something wrong with America. We may all be forced to get covid. Thanks gop.
The whole situation is sad. Like most things in the U.S. though, it all goes into the toxic wasteland of American politics. Everything is spun and turned into a pissing match to fit an agenda. Hopefully things are better for you in Ireland than they are here.
Things are pretty good here. The virus is being kept at bay relatively well and the country is slowly starting to reopen. People who don't want to take risks are being facilitated adequately. We have set hours where elderly people can access supermarkets for instance. It's going well, thankfully.
Dublin 2006 Dublin 2010 Madrid 2018 Werchter 2022 London 1 2022 London 2 2022 Krakow 2022
0
F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,719
Talked to people from a number of different states yesterday and everyone said something similar who was not from the northeast corridor....that people were mostly trying to act like everything is normal.
Not normal. Acting like it is normal is going to put us in a hole.
What if no vaccine ever becomes available? How are some of you going to live? As for me I work in Cannabis facility with 800 other folks that makes social distancing near impossible. I just go to work with the mind set that I may just have to learn to live with the virus for the foreseeable future. And yes, the greenhouse sector that I work in is experiencing outbreaks 😷. For some of us life must go on...even though I’m sure I could off and collect “Trudeau welfare”...I’d rather work and keep the pay check coming in...
I wear no mask at work. I wear no mask period. If I’m required I will...but so far no one in my area requires mask wearing to patronize any business...
Honestly, I find it extremely irresponsible of your employer to have people working close together with no masks. It’s no different than any other known health & safety hazard at work. And then knowing you do that and have that potential exposure and do not care to wear a mask other places? That’s not living with the virus that’s just not caring.
living with the virus is finding ways for things to go on safely, which includes social distancing AND wearing if a mask. So I’m kinda wondering why people confuse it with just ignoring the risk.
My employer, like other employers in the area are having trouble getting masks...some employers are trying to stay in business. I work alone 80% of the time. The other 20% I’m not in close contact with people unless I choose. When out I keep my distance...
its not irresponsible. The government was irresponsible...both yours and mine. McDonald’s and fast food is not essential. Most of what Wal Mart Sells is not essential...yet I couldn’t get chiropractic services...Really? People got their priorities fucked up if they think fast food and big box stores are essential...
I also have asthma so I find breathing in a mask difficult, and then add the humid weather...lol. I also live in a small town...we do not live stacked on top of each other like cities. Oddly enough people in my small town do a good job of social distancing and following the arrows in grocery stores...
I'm very confused. In this same thread, you just said the sector is experiencing outbreaks and that you work in a facility with 800 folks that makes social distancing nearly impossible. Based on that, yes, your employer is being irresponsible and reckless. But the buck doesn't stop there - as a person who goes out without wearing masks, having willingly exposed yourself to that environment, you're being irresponsible and reckless too when you elect not to wear a mask.
I've moved up north in Ontario where our local town has one store (it serves as an LCBO, butcher shop, grocery store, post office). Even here, everyone's wearing masks when they shop/work at the shop.
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EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
What if no vaccine ever becomes available? How are some of you going to live? As for me I work in Cannabis facility with 800 other folks that makes social distancing near impossible. I just go to work with the mind set that I may just have to learn to live with the virus for the foreseeable future. And yes, the greenhouse sector that I work in is experiencing outbreaks 😷. For some of us life must go on...even though I’m sure I could off and collect “Trudeau welfare”...I’d rather work and keep the pay check coming in...
I wear no mask at work. I wear no mask period. If I’m required I will...but so far no one in my area requires mask wearing to patronize any business...
Honestly, I find it extremely irresponsible of your employer to have people working close together with no masks. It’s no different than any other known health & safety hazard at work. And then knowing you do that and have that potential exposure and do not care to wear a mask other places? That’s not living with the virus that’s just not caring.
living with the virus is finding ways for things to go on safely, which includes social distancing AND wearing if a mask. So I’m kinda wondering why people confuse it with just ignoring the risk.
My employer, like other employers in the area are having trouble getting masks...some employers are trying to stay in business. I work alone 80% of the time. The other 20% I’m not in close contact with people unless I choose. When out I keep my distance...
its not irresponsible. The government was irresponsible...both yours and mine. McDonald’s and fast food is not essential. Most of what Wal Mart Sells is not essential...yet I couldn’t get chiropractic services...Really? People got their priorities fucked up if they think fast food and big box stores are essential...
I also have asthma so I find breathing in a mask difficult, and then add the humid weather...lol. I also live in a small town...we do not live stacked on top of each other like cities. Oddly enough people in my small town do a good job of social distancing and following the arrows in grocery stores...
I'm very confused. In this same thread, you just said the sector is experiencing outbreaks and that you work in a facility with 800 folks that makes social distancing nearly impossible. Based on that, yes, your employer is being irresponsible and reckless. But the buck doesn't stop there - as a person who goes out without wearing masks, having willingly exposed yourself to that environment, you're being irresponsible and reckless too when you elect not to wear a mask.
I've moved up north in Ontario where our local town has one store (it serves as an LCBO, butcher shop, grocery store, post office). Even here, everyone's wearing masks when they shop/work at the shop.
I like that people who don't care to mask up pretend they can be critical of others. (Whom they clearly don't care enough about to put on a darn mask!)
What if no vaccine ever becomes available? How are some of you going to live? As for me I work in Cannabis facility with 800 other folks that makes social distancing near impossible. I just go to work with the mind set that I may just have to learn to live with the virus for the foreseeable future. And yes, the greenhouse sector that I work in is experiencing outbreaks 😷. For some of us life must go on...even though I’m sure I could off and collect “Trudeau welfare”...I’d rather work and keep the pay check coming in...
I wear no mask at work. I wear no mask period. If I’m required I will...but so far no one in my area requires mask wearing to patronize any business...
Honestly, I find it extremely irresponsible of your employer to have people working close together with no masks. It’s no different than any other known health & safety hazard at work. And then knowing you do that and have that potential exposure and do not care to wear a mask other places? That’s not living with the virus that’s just not caring.
living with the virus is finding ways for things to go on safely, which includes social distancing AND wearing if a mask. So I’m kinda wondering why people confuse it with just ignoring the risk.
My employer, like other employers in the area are having trouble getting masks...some employers are trying to stay in business. I work alone 80% of the time. The other 20% I’m not in close contact with people unless I choose. When out I keep my distance...
its not irresponsible. The government was irresponsible...both yours and mine. McDonald’s and fast food is not essential. Most of what Wal Mart Sells is not essential...yet I couldn’t get chiropractic services...Really? People got their priorities fucked up if they think fast food and big box stores are essential...
I also have asthma so I find breathing in a mask difficult, and then add the humid weather...lol. I also live in a small town...we do not live stacked on top of each other like cities. Oddly enough people in my small town do a good job of social distancing and following the arrows in grocery stores...
I'm very confused. In this same thread, you just said the sector is experiencing outbreaks and that you work in a facility with 800 folks that makes social distancing nearly impossible. Based on that, yes, your employer is being irresponsible and reckless. But the buck doesn't stop there - as a person who goes out without wearing masks, having willingly exposed yourself to that environment, you're being irresponsible and reckless too when you elect not to wear a mask.
I've moved up north in Ontario where our local town has one store (it serves as an LCBO, butcher shop, grocery store, post office). Even here, everyone's wearing masks when they shop/work at the shop.
I work alone 80 % of the time. Why would I wear a mask? I have asthma and mask make breathing difficult. When required I will wear...let me guess you wear one when alone in your car??
i could care a less about where you moved or the lcbo a government monopoly...
What if no vaccine ever becomes available? How are some of you going to live? As for me I work in Cannabis facility with 800 other folks that makes social distancing near impossible. I just go to work with the mind set that I may just have to learn to live with the virus for the foreseeable future. And yes, the greenhouse sector that I work in is experiencing outbreaks 😷. For some of us life must go on...even though I’m sure I could off and collect “Trudeau welfare”...I’d rather work and keep the pay check coming in...
I wear no mask at work. I wear no mask period. If I’m required I will...but so far no one in my area requires mask wearing to patronize any business...
Honestly, I find it extremely irresponsible of your employer to have people working close together with no masks. It’s no different than any other known health & safety hazard at work. And then knowing you do that and have that potential exposure and do not care to wear a mask other places? That’s not living with the virus that’s just not caring.
living with the virus is finding ways for things to go on safely, which includes social distancing AND wearing if a mask. So I’m kinda wondering why people confuse it with just ignoring the risk.
My employer, like other employers in the area are having trouble getting masks...some employers are trying to stay in business. I work alone 80% of the time. The other 20% I’m not in close contact with people unless I choose. When out I keep my distance...
its not irresponsible. The government was irresponsible...both yours and mine. McDonald’s and fast food is not essential. Most of what Wal Mart Sells is not essential...yet I couldn’t get chiropractic services...Really? People got their priorities fucked up if they think fast food and big box stores are essential...
I also have asthma so I find breathing in a mask difficult, and then add the humid weather...lol. I also live in a small town...we do not live stacked on top of each other like cities. Oddly enough people in my small town do a good job of social distancing and following the arrows in grocery stores...
I'm very confused. In this same thread, you just said the sector is experiencing outbreaks and that you work in a facility with 800 folks that makes social distancing nearly impossible. Based on that, yes, your employer is being irresponsible and reckless. But the buck doesn't stop there - as a person who goes out without wearing masks, having willingly exposed yourself to that environment, you're being irresponsible and reckless too when you elect not to wear a mask.
I've moved up north in Ontario where our local town has one store (it serves as an LCBO, butcher shop, grocery store, post office). Even here, everyone's wearing masks when they shop/work at the shop.
I work alone 80 % of the time. Why would I wear a mask? I have asthma and mask make breathing difficult. When required I will wear...let me guess you wear one when alone in your car??
i could care a less about where you moved or the lcbo a government monopoly...
What if you didn't have asthma? Would you wear a mask if you went to the grocery store or the post office if those places merely recommended wearing one to enter? If not, why not?
0
F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,719
What if no vaccine ever becomes available? How are some of you going to live? As for me I work in Cannabis facility with 800 other folks that makes social distancing near impossible. I just go to work with the mind set that I may just have to learn to live with the virus for the foreseeable future. And yes, the greenhouse sector that I work in is experiencing outbreaks 😷. For some of us life must go on...even though I’m sure I could off and collect “Trudeau welfare”...I’d rather work and keep the pay check coming in...
I wear no mask at work. I wear no mask period. If I’m required I will...but so far no one in my area requires mask wearing to patronize any business...
Honestly, I find it extremely irresponsible of your employer to have people working close together with no masks. It’s no different than any other known health & safety hazard at work. And then knowing you do that and have that potential exposure and do not care to wear a mask other places? That’s not living with the virus that’s just not caring.
living with the virus is finding ways for things to go on safely, which includes social distancing AND wearing if a mask. So I’m kinda wondering why people confuse it with just ignoring the risk.
My employer, like other employers in the area are having trouble getting masks...some employers are trying to stay in business. I work alone 80% of the time. The other 20% I’m not in close contact with people unless I choose. When out I keep my distance...
its not irresponsible. The government was irresponsible...both yours and mine. McDonald’s and fast food is not essential. Most of what Wal Mart Sells is not essential...yet I couldn’t get chiropractic services...Really? People got their priorities fucked up if they think fast food and big box stores are essential...
I also have asthma so I find breathing in a mask difficult, and then add the humid weather...lol. I also live in a small town...we do not live stacked on top of each other like cities. Oddly enough people in my small town do a good job of social distancing and following the arrows in grocery stores...
I'm very confused. In this same thread, you just said the sector is experiencing outbreaks and that you work in a facility with 800 folks that makes social distancing nearly impossible. Based on that, yes, your employer is being irresponsible and reckless. But the buck doesn't stop there - as a person who goes out without wearing masks, having willingly exposed yourself to that environment, you're being irresponsible and reckless too when you elect not to wear a mask.
I've moved up north in Ontario where our local town has one store (it serves as an LCBO, butcher shop, grocery store, post office). Even here, everyone's wearing masks when they shop/work at the shop.
I work alone 80 % of the time. Why would I wear a mask? I have asthma and mask make breathing difficult. When required I will wear...let me guess you wear one when alone in your car??
i could care a less about where you moved or the lcbo a government monopoly...
You could care less demonstrates a level of caring. If you could not care less that would probably make more sense.
Why would anyone wear one in their car? I do see some people doing this. More power to them but it does make me wonder what they feel it is going to help with.
What if no vaccine ever becomes available? How are some of you going to live? As for me I work in Cannabis facility with 800 other folks that makes social distancing near impossible. I just go to work with the mind set that I may just have to learn to live with the virus for the foreseeable future. And yes, the greenhouse sector that I work in is experiencing outbreaks 😷. For some of us life must go on...even though I’m sure I could off and collect “Trudeau welfare”...I’d rather work and keep the pay check coming in...
I wear no mask at work. I wear no mask period. If I’m required I will...but so far no one in my area requires mask wearing to patronize any business...
Honestly, I find it extremely irresponsible of your employer to have people working close together with no masks. It’s no different than any other known health & safety hazard at work. And then knowing you do that and have that potential exposure and do not care to wear a mask other places? That’s not living with the virus that’s just not caring.
living with the virus is finding ways for things to go on safely, which includes social distancing AND wearing if a mask. So I’m kinda wondering why people confuse it with just ignoring the risk.
My employer, like other employers in the area are having trouble getting masks...some employers are trying to stay in business. I work alone 80% of the time. The other 20% I’m not in close contact with people unless I choose. When out I keep my distance...
its not irresponsible. The government was irresponsible...both yours and mine. McDonald’s and fast food is not essential. Most of what Wal Mart Sells is not essential...yet I couldn’t get chiropractic services...Really? People got their priorities fucked up if they think fast food and big box stores are essential...
I also have asthma so I find breathing in a mask difficult, and then add the humid weather...lol. I also live in a small town...we do not live stacked on top of each other like cities. Oddly enough people in my small town do a good job of social distancing and following the arrows in grocery stores...
I'm very confused. In this same thread, you just said the sector is experiencing outbreaks and that you work in a facility with 800 folks that makes social distancing nearly impossible. Based on that, yes, your employer is being irresponsible and reckless. But the buck doesn't stop there - as a person who goes out without wearing masks, having willingly exposed yourself to that environment, you're being irresponsible and reckless too when you elect not to wear a mask.
I've moved up north in Ontario where our local town has one store (it serves as an LCBO, butcher shop, grocery store, post office). Even here, everyone's wearing masks when they shop/work at the shop.
I work alone 80 % of the time. Why would I wear a mask? I have asthma and mask make breathing difficult. When required I will wear...let me guess you wear one when alone in your car??
i could care a less about where you moved or the lcbo a government monopoly...
You could care less demonstrates a level of caring. If you could not care less that would probably make more sense.
Why would anyone wear one in their car? I do see some people doing this. More power to them but it does make me wonder what they feel it is going to help with.
If we expect to be within ten feet of others we should wear a mask. We require each other to be smart and considerate to stay healthy, especially in the states. My wife has a fairly bad case of asthma and always wears a mask when in public.
With the current expanding outbreak in the states, and the lack of decency and consideration by many Republicans, I am starting to think all Americans better get prepared to suffer thru covid. Seems it could be coming to most American households.
COVID cases are going up in some areas and we still don't have adequate PPE. I won't share with you all how long we are required to reuse our N95 masks. It's the best we can do to protect ourselves in the healthcare field with limited supplies. I don't see why more is not being done to protect healthcare workers (more PPE). Guess our government has more important things to do-- like have a rally and block a book from being released.
0
F Me In The Brain
this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,719
COVID cases are going up in some areas and we still don't have adequate PPE. I won't share with you all how long we are required to reuse our N95 masks. It's the best we can do to protect ourselves in the healthcare field with limited supplies. I don't see why more is not being done to protect healthcare workers (more PPE). Guess our government has more important things to do-- like have a rally and block a book from being released.
Agree. How in the heck can this still be the case? Totally shameful. One of many things to feel shame about with regard to these idiots we have in power right now.
Post edited by F Me In The Brain on
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,267
COVID cases are going up in some areas and we still don't have adequate PPE. I won't share with you all how long we are required to reuse our N95 masks. It's the best we can do to protect ourselves in the healthcare field with limited supplies. I don't see why more is not being done to protect healthcare workers (more PPE). Guess our government has more important things to do-- like have a rally and block a book from being released.
Another inexcusable oversight from the current administration. Shameful!
What if no vaccine ever becomes available? How are some of you going to live? As for me I work in Cannabis facility with 800 other folks that makes social distancing near impossible. I just go to work with the mind set that I may just have to learn to live with the virus for the foreseeable future. And yes, the greenhouse sector that I work in is experiencing outbreaks 😷. For some of us life must go on...even though I’m sure I could off and collect “Trudeau welfare”...I’d rather work and keep the pay check coming in...
I wear no mask at work. I wear no mask period. If I’m required I will...but so far no one in my area requires mask wearing to patronize any business...
Honestly, I find it extremely irresponsible of your employer to have people working close together with no masks. It’s no different than any other known health & safety hazard at work. And then knowing you do that and have that potential exposure and do not care to wear a mask other places? That’s not living with the virus that’s just not caring.
living with the virus is finding ways for things to go on safely, which includes social distancing AND wearing if a mask. So I’m kinda wondering why people confuse it with just ignoring the risk.
My employer, like other employers in the area are having trouble getting masks...some employers are trying to stay in business. I work alone 80% of the time. The other 20% I’m not in close contact with people unless I choose. When out I keep my distance...
its not irresponsible. The government was irresponsible...both yours and mine. McDonald’s and fast food is not essential. Most of what Wal Mart Sells is not essential...yet I couldn’t get chiropractic services...Really? People got their priorities fucked up if they think fast food and big box stores are essential...
I also have asthma so I find breathing in a mask difficult, and then add the humid weather...lol. I also live in a small town...we do not live stacked on top of each other like cities. Oddly enough people in my small town do a good job of social distancing and following the arrows in grocery stores...
I'm very confused. In this same thread, you just said the sector is experiencing outbreaks and that you work in a facility with 800 folks that makes social distancing nearly impossible. Based on that, yes, your employer is being irresponsible and reckless. But the buck doesn't stop there - as a person who goes out without wearing masks, having willingly exposed yourself to that environment, you're being irresponsible and reckless too when you elect not to wear a mask.
I've moved up north in Ontario where our local town has one store (it serves as an LCBO, butcher shop, grocery store, post office). Even here, everyone's wearing masks when they shop/work at the shop.
I work alone 80 % of the time. Why would I wear a mask? I have asthma and mask make breathing difficult. When required I will wear...let me guess you wear one when alone in your car??
i could care a less about where you moved or the lcbo a government monopoly...
You could care less demonstrates a level of caring. If you could not care less that would probably make more sense.
Why would anyone wear one in their car? I do see some people doing this. More power to them but it does make me wonder what they feel it is going to help with.
If we expect to be within ten feet of others we should wear a mask. We require each other to be smart and considerate to stay healthy, especially in the states. My wife has a fairly bad case of asthma and always wears a mask when in public.
With the current expanding outbreak in the states, and the lack of decency and consideration by many Republicans, I am starting to think all Americans better get prepared to suffer thru covid. Seems it could be coming to most American households.
Many people, not necessarily limited to one group.
Caught up with our old neighbors today that I have been talking about since covid-19 began. After talking to them I found out that within their immediate family everyone tested positive for antibodies but only the dad who was eventually hospitalized showed symptoms (wife and three kids did not). So the dad is back to work but can only work a few hours from home (sales) before exhaustion sets in. Again for everyone who thinks this is fake news or isn’t a big deal please take it seriously and use common sense.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Caught up with our old neighbors today that I have been talking about since covid-19 began. After talking to them I found out that within their immediate family everyone tested positive for antibodies but only the dad who was eventually hospitalized showed symptoms (wife and three kids did not). So the dad is back to work but can only work a few hours from home (sales) before exhaustion sets in. Again for everyone who thinks this is fake news or isn’t a big deal please take it seriously and use common sense.
Caught up with our old neighbors today that I have been talking about since covid-19 began. After talking to them I found out that within their immediate family everyone tested positive for antibodies but only the dad who was eventually hospitalized showed symptoms (wife and three kids did not). So the dad is back to work but can only work a few hours from home (sales) before exhaustion sets in. Again for everyone who thinks this is fake news or isn’t a big deal please take it seriously and use common sense.
COVID cases are going up in some areas and we still don't have adequate PPE. I won't share with you all how long we are required to reuse our N95 masks. It's the best we can do to protect ourselves in the healthcare field with limited supplies. I don't see why more is not being done to protect healthcare workers (more PPE). Guess our government has more important things to do-- like have a rally and block a book from being released.
Get on the phone emai writte a letter to your representatives and bark at them make them listen, write one detailed letter expressing your dissatisfaction, frustration, anger! Make hundred copies and mail it to your representatives everyday mail one ☝️
Comments
Hopefully all your co-workers will follow safe guidelines and getting to and from work goes well also. Stay safe Renfield, and keep us posted.
Oh man...
Dublin 2010
Madrid 2018
Werchter 2022
London 1 2022
London 2 2022
Krakow 2022
Not normal.
Acting like it is normal is going to put us in a hole.
Good thing our leadership is strong.
I've moved up north in Ontario where our local town has one store (it serves as an LCBO, butcher shop, grocery store, post office). Even here, everyone's wearing masks when they shop/work at the shop.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Hampton 2016
(Whom they clearly don't care enough about to put on a darn mask!)
i could care a less about where you moved or the lcbo a government monopoly...
What if you didn't have asthma? Would you wear a mask if you went to the grocery store or the post office if those places merely recommended wearing one to enter? If not, why not?
If you could not care less that would probably make more sense.
Why would anyone wear one in their car?
I do see some people doing this. More power to them but it does make me wonder what they feel it is going to help with.
With the current expanding outbreak in the states, and the lack of decency and consideration by many Republicans, I am starting to think all Americans better get prepared to suffer thru covid. Seems it could be coming to most American households.
Totally shameful. One of many things to feel shame about with regard to these idiots we have in power right now.
Another inexcusable oversight from the current administration. Shameful!
add a little tissue to top of mask and they won't fog
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14