Police abuse

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

brianlux said:

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

oftenreading said:

Peaceful protest has not led to one whit of change. Those saying to "just protest peacefully" have no idea of the magnitude of the problem. I can understand the rage and frustration. 

This is a tough one. 

First of all, I think you're pretty much right on here.   But having seen all kinds of protest over various issues,  I think what was once a successful means for change (for example: the war in Vietnam ended earlier that it would have due to protests of all kinds), protests are now not as likely to create change.  I don't say that easily.  I understand the protests.  I'm against violent protest, but I understand it.  How could I, a white male, speak out against the protests in Minneapolis and elsewhere?  What would I be doing if I were a young black man?  If I'm angry at what happened, how much more if I were black or brown?

I don't know for sure anymore what creates change.  One thing for sure- it's not happening for a lot of people in ways that are making things better for them.  Something has to give.   

When you say you can’t speak out against protestors, do you include looters and arsons and those bringing guns and shooting in a crowd in that? I don’t consider them protesters. 

No, I don't agree with the looting and the arson.  I understand it, I understand the anger, but burning and stealing is not something I condone.  But look, the reality is, the great majority of protesters are not burning and looting.  And we should remember that the media loves it.  Man, that shit sells.  But ALL the other protesters?  I say, Right ON!

A rebuttal to myself:

Yeah, OK, but what has peaceful protest ever gained?  Maybe violence in the streets is the only way to get enough attention to the problem to make enough people aware of how bad the situation is and how seriously change needs to happen.  There are no easy answers.   

Here’s the problem. Destroying property is wrong. But even worse I will be shocked if no one is killed in these riots, if they haven’t already.
Dis you see that cop in Chicago being dragged through the street? I thought they were going to mob kill him like you see in 3rd world countries. And they very well may have if a few other protesters didn’t step in.
No cops deserve to be murdered because of the actions of a few they never even met. Same goes for all groups and races. Someone killing a cop because he’s a cop is just as disgusting as a cop killing a black man.

oftenreading said:

cincybearcat said:

This is all so awful.... 

I wish cops would step in and take control when their co-workers are out of control. We cannot expect humans to stay in control 100%, we can expect a system that minimizes it and then steps in to stop it when it occurs.

i wish the protests could have remained peaceful.  I understand that when you aren’t being heard you lash out. But I hate the stupid excuse it gives to shift blame.  

Police need to police each other. Like any job. Someone doing something wrong, call it out and help them do it right.

And in reality the protesters also need to be holding each other accountable for their behavior. Same thing.

I guess this is what you get when you:

1) continue to have police issues with very little change/improvement
2) Have a president that stokes division, hatred and violence

Several other things I can think of, but not sure this forum or any online forum is the place to bring it up and have a conversation about. Needs to be in person, not a place that treats posts like headlines.

Police certainly should police each other, but they do not and I don't expect that will change. Their culture of protecting each other is too strong.

And as for protesters holding each other accountable - why? and how? These individuals are not a unified group with a specific purpose, like the police - it's a disparate amalgamation of people with all sorts of aims, and many of the ones who are causing problems aren't really even there to protest, they're there to take advantage of the situation to cast the protesters in a bad light. MAGAheads sowing chaos so that they can use it as an excuse to "crack down" again. 

I agree with your two list causes, though. 

pjl44 said:

brianlux said:

brianlux said:

mace1229 said:

brianlux said:

oftenreading said:

Peaceful protest has not led to one whit of change. Those saying to "just protest peacefully" have no idea of the magnitude of the problem. I can understand the rage and frustration. 

This is a tough one. 

First of all, I think you're pretty much right on here.   But having seen all kinds of protest over various issues,  I think what was once a successful means for change (for example: the war in Vietnam ended earlier that it would have due to protests of all kinds), protests are now not as likely to create change.  I don't say that easily.  I understand the protests.  I'm against violent protest, but I understand it.  How could I, a white male, speak out against the protests in Minneapolis and elsewhere?  What would I be doing if I were a young black man?  If I'm angry at what happened, how much more if I were black or brown?

I don't know for sure anymore what creates change.  One thing for sure- it's not happening for a lot of people in ways that are making things better for them.  Something has to give.   

When you say you can’t speak out against protestors, do you include looters and arsons and those bringing guns and shooting in a crowd in that? I don’t consider them protesters. 

No, I don't agree with the looting and the arson.  I understand it, I understand the anger, but burning and stealing is not something I condone.  But look, the reality is, the great majority of protesters are not burning and looting.  And we should remember that the media loves it.  Man, that shit sells.  But ALL the other protesters?  I say, Right ON!

A rebuttal to myself:

Yeah, OK, but what has peaceful protest ever gained?  Maybe violence in the streets is the only way to get enough attention to the problem to make enough people aware of how bad the situation is and how seriously change needs to happen.  There are no easy answers.   

I think the way to square it is distinguishing between the violence directed at precinct buildings and police vehicles vs. that directed at things like local businesses or a Native American cultural center. It's awful on a number of levels that this is what it's come to, but I do see a distinction there.

This mostly sums up how I'm feeling about things:

pjl44 said:

josevolution said:

Is it time to worry that this country is headed into a total authoritarian regime? I’m really thinking of putting together a get out of the country contingency plan with my family! 

The opposite, in my opinion. You're seeing strong pushback to authoritarianism. 

cincybearcat said:

oftenreading said:

cincybearcat said:

This is all so awful.... 

I wish cops would step in and take control when their co-workers are out of control. We cannot expect humans to stay in control 100%, we can expect a system that minimizes it and then steps in to stop it when it occurs.

i wish the protests could have remained peaceful.  I understand that when you aren’t being heard you lash out. But I hate the stupid excuse it gives to shift blame.  

Police need to police each other. Like any job. Someone doing something wrong, call it out and help them do it right.

And in reality the protesters also need to be holding each other accountable for their behavior. Same thing.

I guess this is what you get when you:

1) continue to have police issues with very little change/improvement
2) Have a president that stokes division, hatred and violence

Several other things I can think of, but not sure this forum or any online forum is the place to bring it up and have a conversation about. Needs to be in person, not a place that treats posts like headlines.

Police certainly should police each other, but they do not and I don't expect that will change. Their culture of protecting each other is too strong.

And as for protesters holding each other accountable - why? and how? These individuals are not a unified group with a specific purpose, like the police - it's a disparate amalgamation of people with all sorts of aims, and many of the ones who are causing problems aren't really even there to protest, they're there to take advantage of the situation to cast the protesters in a bad light. MAGAheads sowing chaos so that they can use it as an excuse to "crack down" again. 

I agree with your two list causes, though. 

Since they are calling for action and creating the environment. Look I don’t expect them to do the police work. I just expect them to do what they can.  I think it’s clear that some of these leaders in the streets are just as frustrated about the looting, etc as many others are. Saw on CNN then interviewing a young black man, 19. Kid really couldn’t communicate why he was there and what they wanted to do. One of the leaders of the group barged in, frustrated, and tried to explain.  I expect anyone to confront this kind of behavior. 

I find these statements eerily similar, and I get it’s not apples to apples:

1) Police when a police murder happens “Most cops are good cops, there are some bad elements”

2) Protesters “Most are protesting and want justice. There is a bad element taking advantage...”

I guess it shows just how similar we all are. I’m mad and frustrated that a lack of real change has occurred in many police forces that has lead to this.  I’m mad and frustrated that this protest have become a lot about fires, damage and looting.  I certainly don’t have the answers. I guess if I was organizing the protest, I would have people sit outside the businesses along the street. No more marching, just site in front of the business that they depend on during everyday normal life. It’s an opportunity for a valuable visual, to separate them from the criminal element.

As for the police, they too have to separate themselves from the criminal element in their workforce obviously.

tbergs said:

nicknyr15 said:

dignin said:

nicknyr15 said:

No one is slamming these “protestors “ for social distancing? Why?

Because that's stupid.

How? It’s not stupid in any other large gatherings that happen. 

Do you have your own opinion on the matter? Pretty sure this was mentioned a few pages ago and it's been mentioned in the media. Also, do you mean those rioting or the actual protestors because many of them have been wearing masks. Rioters and looters, yeah, probably not going to happen besides the masks they're wearing to hide their identity.

And why is it that you usually come on here to try and prove some contrarian point or a catch people in a gotcha moment? Oh, the left isn't criticizing this group enough. FFS, people protesting because they have to wear a mask and quarantine for a month vs. people protesting hundreds of years of oppression.