10C tickets on stubhub

PJNB · February 2020

ecdanc said:

gotthebottle said:

PJNB said:

Lerxst1992 said:

In addition to all the 10c GA tickets on stubhub, about 350 tickets landed there on friday, the same day 10c seat locations were distributed

Many of these are seats in the 200s row 16 and higher.

This seems to indicate they are 10c burner accounts. Poor seat location = high membership number.

They pay the $20 for a few years and unload a pair for $1000.

Membership gets deleted. Rinse wash repeat. Membership dues driving up ticket prices.

This is happening for sure and not sure how 10 club can combat this with the NY laws.

As per 10C rules for not reselling over face...they could cancel these seats on StubHub and redistribute to accounts that didn't win?

I'm not entirely sure, but I'd guess doing so is illegal.

I think they were able to do it in the past but now that tickets are transferable it could be the fifth person to have those seats transferred to them and they are the ones that decided to flip them. Hard to fault the original 10C member of the tickets at that point.

mace1229 · February 2020

I havent been able to find exactly what the scalping laws are in NY. But why does the F2F exchange not meet the transferability requirements? They are transferable via F2F right? Does the law specifically state they also have the right to charge whatever, or just that they need to be transferable?

ecdanc · February 2020

PJNB said:

ecdanc said:

gotthebottle said:

PJNB said:

Lerxst1992 said:

In addition to all the 10c GA tickets on stubhub, about 350 tickets landed there on friday, the same day 10c seat locations were distributed

Many of these are seats in the 200s row 16 and higher.

This seems to indicate they are 10c burner accounts. Poor seat location = high membership number.

They pay the $20 for a few years and unload a pair for $1000.

Membership gets deleted. Rinse wash repeat. Membership dues driving up ticket prices.

This is happening for sure and not sure how 10 club can combat this with the NY laws.

As per 10C rules for not reselling over face...they could cancel these seats on StubHub and redistribute to accounts that didn't win?

I'm not entirely sure, but I'd guess doing so is illegal.

I think they were able to do it in the past but now that tickets are transferable it could be the fifth person to have those seats transferred to them and they are the ones that decided to flip them. Hard to fault the original 10C member of the tickets at that point.

If NY state law mandates that tickets are transferrable and sets no limits on resale markup, can the original ticket-seller (whether that by TM, 10c, PJ, whoever) establish a contractual right to invalidate tickets? To put that differently, being a 10c member comes with certain stipulations, so it functions as a contract of sorts. Thus, 10c could cancel our membership for cause. The tickets themselves are separate contracts in which would find the right to cancel (if it exists). I'm skeptical that such stipulations would be legal in states that mandate transferability.

Lerxst1992 · February 2020

detemaster3 said:

It is wild that amount of tickets for sale on StubHub for NYC show on 3/30 on Thursday was at 289. Then it went up to 563 after everyone started to find out their seating locations. Must just be a strange coincidence I'm sure..

It shot up from around 280 to over 625 on friday when 10c locations went out, and I think it's down to 580 now.

Fans are definitely buying.

Lerxst1992 · February 2020

gettingright said:

PJNB said:

Lerxst1992 said:

In addition to all the 10c GA tickets on stubhub, about 350 tickets landed there on friday, the same day 10c seat locations were distributed

Many of these are seats in the 200s row 16 and higher.

This seems to indicate they are 10c burner accounts. Poor seat location = high membership number.

They pay the $20 for a few years and unload a pair for $1000.

Membership gets deleted. Rinse wash repeat. Membership dues driving up ticket prices.

This is happening for sure and not sure how 10 club can combat this with the NY laws.

One membership per household; or a multi-step verification process; must be a member 6 months in advance of shows.

I'd say 18 month advance membership for the lottery and a separate presale to encourage new members. But the scalpers probably already have sleeper burner 10c accounts anyway. It's like a james bond movie.

Making fans wait til day of show for seats prevents us from selling at face value if for any reason we can not make the show. We shouldn't be punished because of scalpers.

tdawe · February 2020

ecdanc said:

PJNB said:

ecdanc said:

gotthebottle said:

PJNB said:

Lerxst1992 said:

In addition to all the 10c GA tickets on stubhub, about 350 tickets landed there on friday, the same day 10c seat locations were distributed

Many of these are seats in the 200s row 16 and higher.

This seems to indicate they are 10c burner accounts. Poor seat location = high membership number.

They pay the $20 for a few years and unload a pair for $1000.

Membership gets deleted. Rinse wash repeat. Membership dues driving up ticket prices.

This is happening for sure and not sure how 10 club can combat this with the NY laws.

As per 10C rules for not reselling over face...they could cancel these seats on StubHub and redistribute to accounts that didn't win?

I'm not entirely sure, but I'd guess doing so is illegal.

I think they were able to do it in the past but now that tickets are transferable it could be the fifth person to have those seats transferred to them and they are the ones that decided to flip them. Hard to fault the original 10C member of the tickets at that point.

If NY state law mandates that tickets are transferrable and sets no limits on resale markup, can the original ticket-seller (whether that by TM, 10c, PJ, whoever) establish a contractual right to invalidate tickets? To put that differently, being a 10c member comes with certain stipulations, so it functions as a contract of sorts. Thus, 10c could cancel our membership for cause. The tickets themselves are separate contracts in which would find the right to cancel (if it exists). I'm skeptical that such stipulations would be legal in states that mandate transferability.

I think it's pretty clear that the answer to your question there is "no." If the law says that the tickets must be transferable, you can't say "I hereby agree to sell you a full transferable ticket, but if you avail yourself of the transfer rights I will revoke the ticket" and claim that that's a separate contractual arrangement. If the law permitted 10C to pull transferred tickets on the theory that it's club rules and thus distinguishable from the Ts&Cs of the ticket itself, that would provide a pretty clear roadmap for artists who might want to circumvent the law entirely (a model like U2's where you can sign up for the fan club after the tour is announced - you pay me $1 for "club membership" to access the sale, which membership includes a non-transferability condition with a right of revocation, then pay face value for a (nominally) transferable ticket).

A separate question though is whether 10C would run afoul of the law by revoking rights to participate in future lotteries - I'll sell you a ticket that you can do with what you wish, but if you transfer it I'm dinging you in some way other than voiding the ticket itself. I genuinely do not know the answer to this, but my guess is that if the club intended to press the issue by revoking memberships, they would have made it more clear in the communications about this tour's tickets.

One thing to remember though is that the law in question (at least in NY) does actually allow for the sale of non-transferable paperless tickets as long as the buyer has the option to buy paper tickets instead. I wonder if it would have worked for the club to offer members the choice of either taking non-transferable SmarTix to be delivered last week, or old school paper tickets that you could only get at will call.

Clapper · February 2020

tdawe said:

I think it's pretty clear that the answer to your question there is "no." If the law says that the tickets must be transferable, you can't say "I hereby agree to sell you a full transferable ticket, but if you avail yourself of the transfer rights I will revoke the ticket" and claim that that's a separate contractual arrangement. If the law permitted 10C to pull transferred tickets on the theory that it's club rules and thus distinguishable from the Ts&Cs of the ticket itself, that would provide a pretty clear roadmap for artists who might want to circumvent the law entirely (a model like U2's where you can sign up for the fan club after the tour is announced - you pay me $1 for "club membership" to access the sale, which membership includes a non-transferability condition with a right of revocation, then pay face value for a (nominally) transferable ticket).

A separate question though is whether 10C would run afoul of the law by revoking rights to participate in future lotteries - I'll sell you a ticket that you can do with what you wish, but if you transfer it I'm dinging you in some way other than voiding the ticket itself. I genuinely do not know the answer to this, but my guess is that if the club intended to press the issue by revoking memberships, they would have made it more clear in the communications about this tour's tickets.

One thing to remember though is that the law in question (at least in NY) does actually allow for the sale of non-transferable paperless tickets as long as the buyer has the option to buy paper tickets instead. I wonder if it would have worked for the club to offer members the choice of either taking non-transferable SmarTix to be delivered last week, or old school paper tickets that you could only get at will call.

Earlier in the thread I guesstimated that 2.5% of MSG tickets made it to Stub Hub and that ultimately I think that counts as a success for the fans and the band. You make an interesting point though, at what point does the 10C feel like they have given enough time and resources to it. Like if 2.5% is the final number of tix that end up on the hub, will they even care to put any additional time, effort and resources into a fight they appear to have won? As a further addition, I was wondering about the legality of cancelling tickets. As a "private" club, I don't believe they need any extensive cause to rescind anyone's membership I'm just not sure they can cancel a ticket purchase without a pile of headaches that hardly seem worth it for the number of tickets that made it into the wild so to speak.

MD190661 · February 2020

You know what would help thwart the scalping of the MSG show? Announce the Fall tour soon with many shows in the NY area. Sure, there will still be demand for the Spring show, but prices will drop and scalpers will lose some money if other shows are on sale with more supply.

whitepants · February 2020

MD190661 said:

You know what would help thwart the scalping of the is MSG show? Announce the Fall tour soon with many shows in the NY area. Sure, there will still be demand for the Spring show, but prices will drop and scalpers will lose some money if other shows are on sale with more supply.

Or, just make one NY show a fan club show of those 10C members up to 300xxx (btw, I'm 140xxx).

Any tickets re-sold will be automatically banned.

tdawe · February 2020

MD190661 said:

You know what would help thwart the scalping of the is MSG show? Announce the Fall tour soon with many shows in the NY area. Sure, there will still be demand for the Spring show, but prices will drop and scalpers will lose some money if other shows are on sale with more supply.

It's apples and oranges (or at least apples and much bigger apples), but a couple of years ago Car Seat Headrest created pretty much this exact situation - they released an album and on the initial spring tour their only NY date was at a place in Bushwick that held like 300 people. StubHub prices for the couple months leading up to the show were consistently in the $300-400 range for the small handful of tickets that were even available. Then the week before the show they announced a fall tour with two nights at Brooklyn Steel, and lo and behold a ton of tickets for the spring show hit the marketplace and the prices came down into the $60-70 range by the morning of the show.

huntersthompson · February 2020

MD190661 said:

You know what would help thwart the scalping of the is MSG show? Announce the Fall tour soon with many shows in the NY area. Sure, there will still be demand for the Spring show, but prices will drop and scalpers will lose some money if other shows are on sale with more supply.

I wonder how many shows they would need to do in NYC to thwart scalpers? 10.....20? Maybe 5 would do it....You would always have the people who want to have GA....or front row of reserved who would pay a premium...even if they did 100 shows in NYC. It would be an interesting study.

Lerxst1992 · February 2020

huntersthompson said:

MD190661 said:

You know what would help thwart the scalping of the is MSG show? Announce the Fall tour soon with many shows in the NY area. Sure, there will still be demand for the Spring show, but prices will drop and scalpers will lose some money if other shows are on sale with more supply.

I wonder how many shows they would need to do in NYC to thwart scalpers? 10.....20? Maybe 5 would do it....You would always have the people who want to have GA....or front row of reserved who would pay a premium...even if they did 100 shows in NYC. It would be an interesting study.

playing a couple shows in NY combined with 6 overall in the region, similar to the west on this leg, would probably come close to meeting demand, for at least the club. The only reason they did NY now IMO is they want the big city hype for Giga. The N.east shows (plus the empty 3/26 slot) are when the album hits. They must have known they were creating a scalper nightmare with this itinerary.

Clapper · February 2020

whitepants said:
Or, just make one NY show a fan club show of those 10C members up to 300xxx (btw, I'm 140xxx).

Any tickets re-sold will be automatically banned.

I guess suggesting the band do a show in your backyard during a bbq was too outlandish and self serving a solution so you opted for this instead?

Clapper · February 2020

MD190661 said:

You know what would help thwart the scalping of the MSG show? Announce the Fall tour soon with many shows in the NY area. Sure, there will still be demand for the Spring show, but prices will drop and scalpers will lose some money if other shows are on sale with more supply.

What exactly does this fix? Again, less than 3% of the tickets hit the secondary market. Why would the band play more shows than they want to, and over concentrated in one market just to squash 500 -600 secondary market tickets? No well run business (I know this will pain the 1995 masses but the band is a business) will deviate from their strategy to humour a small group that they aren’t able to accommodate. A group, if we’re being honest with ourselves, will likely never be happy no matter how many concessions are made to placate them.

Lost In Ohio · February 2020

gettingright said:

People do get caught. The ex-husband of someone I work with got booted several years ago trying to sell wrigley takes over face. I don’t know they got caught, just that they did and had tickets revoked and received a lifetime ban.

So it happens.

I am curious, however, how the state law may or may not trump the 10C policy tickets can’t be sold over face value. Like if someone in NY or CO sells over face, gets caught and has tickets revoked, and then sues 10C for their action, who would win?

In my city, you can sell college football tickets for whatever price you want. The face value might be $160, but the scalpers may have them for $300 or even higher. The university doesn't care.

The NY and CO laws basically just say that resale tickets must be available, right?

The members agree to certain rules and regulations upon joining Ten Club.

Ten Club wins this one any day of the week. It's their club and their rules.

Lost In Ohio · February 2020

Lerxst1992 said:

In addition to all the 10c GA tickets on stubhub, about 350 tickets landed there on friday, the same day 10c seat locations were distributed

Many of these are seats in the 200s row 16 and higher.

This seems to indicate they are 10c burner accounts. Poor seat location = high membership number.

They pay the $20 for a few years and unload a pair for $1000.

Membership gets deleted. Rinse wash repeat. Membership dues driving up ticket prices.

Bingo. To professional scalpers, the membership fees are merely a bump. They'll use new employees to their companies. They'll use pre-paid cards.

They've got it down...and they don't care.

ecdanc · February 2020

Lost In Ohio said:

gettingright said:

People do get caught. The ex-husband of someone I work with got booted several years ago trying to sell wrigley takes over face. I don’t know they got caught, just that they did and had tickets revoked and received a lifetime ban.

So it happens.

I am curious, however, how the state law may or may not trump the 10C policy tickets can’t be sold over face value. Like if someone in NY or CO sells over face, gets caught and has tickets revoked, and then sues 10C for their action, who would win?

In my city, you can sell college football tickets for whatever price you want. The face value might be $160, but the scalpers may have them for $300 or even higher. The university doesn't care.

The NY and CO laws basically just say that resale tickets must be available, right?

The members agree to certain rules and regulations upon joining Ten Club.

Ten Club wins this one any day of the week. It's their club and their rules.

Not sure about CO, but the NY laws say a lot more than that. I'm not a lawyer, but I doubt a) it's that simple; and b) 10c would ever consider it worth it to invalidate tickets if the law is not 100% clear.

mpedone · February 2020

mace1229 said:

I havent been able to find exactly what the scalping laws are in NY. But why does the F2F exchange not meet the transferability requirements? They are transferable via F2F right? Does the law specifically state they also have the right to charge whatever, or just that they need to be transferable?

I don't know that the NY tickets aren't allowed on F2F (I've only seen that from one poster who got it from a TM CSR, and they've been wrong numerous times about this process already), but I agree with others on here who argue there's no point to having them on the F2F.

ecdanc · February 2020

mpedone said:

mace1229 said:

I havent been able to find exactly what the scalping laws are in NY. But why does the F2F exchange not meet the transferability requirements? They are transferable via F2F right? Does the law specifically state they also have the right to charge whatever, or just that they need to be transferable?

I don't know that the NY tickets aren't allowed on F2F (I've only seen that from one poster who got it from a TM CSR, and they've been wrong numerous times about this process already), but I agree with others on here who argue there's no point to having them on the F2F.

This is from the ticket delivery email. Makes it pretty clear:

mpedone · February 2020

ecdanc said:

mpedone said:

mace1229 said:

I havent been able to find exactly what the scalping laws are in NY. But why does the F2F exchange not meet the transferability requirements? They are transferable via F2F right? Does the law specifically state they also have the right to charge whatever, or just that they need to be transferable?

I don't know that the NY tickets aren't allowed on F2F (I've only seen that from one poster who got it from a TM CSR, and they've been wrong numerous times about this process already), but I agree with others on here who argue there's no point to having them on the F2F.

This is from the ticket delivery email. Makes it pretty clear:

Okay, if you're just going to prove me wrong all the time...

I totally missed the second asterisk. My second point still stands though - there's no reason to have those tickets on the F2F site.

10C tickets on stubhub

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