The Democratic Presidential Debates

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  • Posts: 10,688
    Nevermind the fact that they're not sitting on vaults of cash like Scrooge McDuck. Much of that wealth is their businesses and other investments. You're not going to liquidate half of Amazon and pay for someone's bloated tuition. 
  • Posts: 31,005
    ecdanc said:
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    You should realize we don't disagree on a vital point here: capitalism HAS been "successful." I'm claiming that its "success" is predicated on horrible things happening to large numbers of people. Bubonic plague was pretty successful in the Middle Ages, but that doesn't mean I'm going to celebrate it. 
    Every single economic system has had substantial collateral damage to humans.  Communism, with the consolidation of power into a few, has shown itself to be both brutal AND ineffective.  
  • Posts: 1,814
    pjl44 said:
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    I am. Even if you completely liquidated him tomorrow every American would get $286. People like to get all red-assed over millionaires and billionaires but the scale is such that looting them isn't really going to make a dent in anything. 
    You might want to do some basic research on the US wealth gap. 
  • Posts: 1,814
    PJPOWER said:
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    Much.  You can say “fuck whatever” all you want and not upset me in the least professor.  It’s just when you pretentiously act like you know what you are talking about that irritates me and others around here.
    The internet: where simultaneously no one is an expert and everyone is an expert. 
  • Posts: 1,814
    pjl44 said:
    Nevermind the fact that they're not sitting on vaults of cash like Scrooge McDuck. Much of that wealth is their businesses and other investments. You're not going to liquidate half of Amazon and pay for someone's bloated tuition. 
    Watch me try. 
  • Posts: 31,673
    edited January 2020
    mrussel1 said:
    Regarding your point, I think communism, as it were, could probably be fine in a small group of people.  But in a nation state, it has utterly failed.  
    With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the ideology of communism.

    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Posts: 1,814
    mrussel1 said:
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    Every single economic system has had substantial collateral damage to humans.  Communism, with the consolidation of power into a few, has shown itself to be both brutal AND ineffective.  
    Capitalism's effects are not "collateral damage"--its destructiveness is its very essence. 
  • Posts: 31,005
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
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    With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the idea of communism.
    Again, the Soviet Union tried that.  It didn't work.  The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc.  So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.  
  • Posts: 31,005
    ecdanc said:
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    Capitalism's effects are not "collateral damage"--its destructiveness is its very essence. 
    Destruction of what?  Do you think the act of exploiting the resources of the weaker developed during the 17th century when market economies began?  I'm pretty sure the Romans, Greeks, Persions, Carthaginians, Egyptians and plenty of others ended up in the same place.  
  • Posts: 10,688
    ecdanc said:
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    Watch me try. 

  • Posts: 1,814
    mrussel1 said:
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    Again, the Soviet Union tried that.  It didn't work.  The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc.  So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.  
    You're not even correct at the most basic level, man. There are variants of communism. Some actually have a very strong, centralized state (e.g., the USSR); others do not (e.g., anarcho-communism). 
  • Posts: 6,499
    ecdanc said:
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    The internet: where simultaneously no one is an expert and everyone is an expert. 
    You seem to like definitive words (no one, everyone).  Unusual for someone that claims to have philosophy knowledge. I usually avoid them, but that’s just me.
  • Posts: 8,516
    mrussel1 said:
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    Again, the Soviet Union tried that.  It didn't work.  The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc.  So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.  

    Then why does it's current version basically run America if it didn't work?
  • Posts: 31,673
    edited January 2020
    mrussel1 said:
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    Again, the Soviet Union tried that.  It didn't work.  The planning came from Moscow and they treated the true Russians very differently than the Ukrainians, the Poles, etc.  So the scourge of nationalism and ethnicity continued to drive Moscow.  
    When did Soviet Union try that?

    Labeling your dictatorship communist =/= the ideology of communism

    I would also argue your "HISTORY HAS PROVEN" is wrong, because you do not have enough cases to draw shit from. A handful of vile dictatorships during a very tiny window in history labeling themselves an ideology isn't proof of anything.

    And with that, i think you should engage in a discussion with ecdanc about ideas instead of having the closedminded Rocky 4-goggles on.
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Posts: 6,499
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
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    With communism there would not be a "state". So that is a contradiction on your part, or what you are talking about is not the ideology of communism.

    Maybe you should google “communist state”...
  • Posts: 1,814
    PJPOWER said:
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    You seem to like definitive words (no one, everyone).  Unusual for someone that claims to have philosophy knowledge. I usually avoid them, but that’s just me.
    You seem to struggle with reading. 
  • Posts: 31,005
    ecdanc said:
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    You're not even correct at the most basic level, man. There are variants of communism. Some actually have a very strong, centralized state (e.g., the USSR); others do not (e.g., anarcho-communism). 
    No shit, but we're talking about Communism as practiced which is essentially Leninism.  I've already said that as a philosophy Communism is interesting, but in practice, human nature corrupts it.  You said "there's no such thing as human nature", and I said "fine then Communism is corrupt" because I'm not arguing dumb points.  We have real live evidence of Communism in practice.  We don't have to read books to see how it will go.  The same is true for capitalism.  On paper, laissez-faire capitalism looks all well and good, but it had serious flaws.  This is how we've evolved to a market based economy, with certain government controls (read: regulations) with sprinkles of socialism (social security, medicare, medicaid, etc.).
  • Posts: 31,005
    And my point on capitalism is why I'm dead set against Objectivism, which is essentially on the other end of the spectrum from Communism/Leninism.  
  • Posts: 1,814
    mrussel1 said:
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    Destruction of what?  Do you think the act of exploiting the resources of the weaker developed during the 17th century when market economies began?  I'm pretty sure the Romans, Greeks, Persions, Carthaginians, Egyptians and plenty of others ended up in the same place.  
    People. 

    Also "other things are bad" does not refute the claim "this is bad." 
  • Posts: 6,499
    edited January 2020
    ecdanc said:
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    You seem to struggle with reading. 
    Care to offer an example where that is the case?  You seem to struggle with logic and reasoning...and reality.
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