All things Transgender related

tbergs said:

Gern Blansten said:

ecdanc said:

tempo_n_groove said:

Gern Blansten said:

I'll say this....I don't care how people identify and want to live their lives.  Life is too short for us to tell anyone how they can live.

That being said, this pronoun crap is ridiculous.  They even have to document your preferred pronoun on medical records now.  I told my wife I am going to use "her/they" if they ask me.

A lot of people think this way.  I think this way.

It is something I try and understand and do not get, I just don't.  

I have gay neighbors that have an adopted son that wants to trasngender/transform to a woman.  They don't understand but are trying.

I'm trying.  

It may take a lot of questions and people telling me I'm offending them or I am not getting it but I am trying.

In the end I may not understand but that doesn't mean that I am against what they are doing.  Live and let live.

“This ... is ridiculous” does not sound like someone trying to understand. 

I apologize if that offended you, truly.  I think it is ridiculous in the sense that no one could possibly know what pronoun someone wants to be referred to as when we don't have it tattooed on our foreheads or wear some sort of sign/tag.  

I think the point ec is trying to advocate for (feel free to correct me ec as I may be way off) is that we discontinue using those pronouns which categorize based on our initial 1st impression of the person physically so that way it doesn't matter because the term would be ambigouos, unless clarified. I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage. On the other side of this though, I struggle with why it even matters that much? Both of my boys have had long hair most of their life (11 & 7) and have often been referred to as she or her when random people comment in conversation. Our youngest has the most beautiful long lashes to go with it so I'm sure it's easy to mistake him for a girl, but we simply correct them and move on. It's often the same old, "Oh, I'm sorry..." and we honestly don't care and laugh it off together. Now, does that have a long lasting impact on them psychologically? I don't know, but what we have taught them is that sometimes people stereotype based on certain physical characteristics and use their best judgment to assign what they believe to be the proper pronoun assessment (we explain that a little more kid friendly obviously). I have never seen it used to purposefully shame someone in my experiences, but if it were to happen, I would wager it would be other school age kids who can be the worst sometimes; however, I often feel that is a reflection of either their comfort level or what influence they have picked up from a parent or adult figure in their life.

I think remaining open minded and being willing to listen to others preferences and experiences (aka, just being a decent person who cares about more than yourself) would alleviate negative connotations.

benjs said:

jeffbr said:

tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage. 

This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!

Thank you for perfectly summarizing everything that needed to be said. In a language like English with words to spare, like you, I'm dumbfounded by the fact that a pluralized pronoun was selected to represent a single individual and that this was nurtured. Like you said, anyone who sees those characteristics in those two individuals, is seeing things as he wants them to be instead of how they are.

Spiritual_Chaos said:

jeffbr said:

tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage. 

This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!

If there's a will there's a way.

Sweden though uses it's own pronoun for situations where a specific gender is not known or wanted.

Han = Him
Hon = Her
Hen = "unknown gender" 

But still, if there's a will there's a way. And how can it be wrong if it is decided upon. Then it is correct. And good people adjust instead of bickering about positive change/progress that is made to help fellow people.

Gern Blansten said:

ecdanc said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

jeffbr said:

tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage. 

This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!

If there's a will there's a way.

Sweden though uses it's own pronoun for situations where a specific gender is not known or wanted.

Han = Him
Hon = Her
Hen = "unknown gender" 

But still, if there's a will there's a way. And how can it be wrong if it is decided upon. Then it is correct. And good people adjust instead of bickering about positive change/progress that is made to help fellow people.

Exactly. “They” is the accepted gender neutral singular personal pronoun in US English. 

So instead of saying "is he going to shut up" I should say "is they going to shut up?"

that makes no fucking sense

Gern Blansten said:

ecdanc said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

jeffbr said:

tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage. 

This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!

If there's a will there's a way.

Sweden though uses it's own pronoun for situations where a specific gender is not known or wanted.

Han = Him
Hon = Her
Hen = "unknown gender" 

But still, if there's a will there's a way. And how can it be wrong if it is decided upon. Then it is correct. And good people adjust instead of bickering about positive change/progress that is made to help fellow people.

Exactly. “They” is the accepted gender neutral singular personal pronoun in US English. 

So instead of saying "is he going to shut up" I should say "is they going to shut up?"

that makes no fucking sense

jeffbr said:

ecdanc said:

jeffbr said:

tbergs said: I admit, it would take a lot of time for this concept to reach social and culture norm because it goes against every basic English language lesson we have ever been taught in regards to pronoun usage. 

This, for sure, will be a big blocker. It is for me. I've been speaking and studying the language for over 5.5 decades, and find using a plural pronoun when referencing an individual subject to be problematic. It is as nonsensical as saying irregardless. It simply doesn't make sense. A different or new pronoun would have likely been a better play. Anyway, I'm sure Professor Troll will now lecture me. Kids who spend their lives in the confines of academia and breath that rarefied air often seem to have inflated opinions about themselves and their intelligence. And they often expose themselves when they start interacting with people who live in the real world. This thread has demonstrated that. When Brian is accused of being a homophobe, and Matt is portrayed as unreasonable and/or uneducated we know we have a winner!

You'd think someone who has studied language for so long would be a better reader. I never accused Brian (or anyone else) of being a homophobe. For one thing, it'd be pretty dumb, because saying something anti-trans has nothing to do with being a homophobe. 

Secondly, the gender/number issue is not problematic. Language evolves; we adapt to it. Dictionaries are already addressing the issue and many in the discipline of English--you know, where we study the language--are at the forefront of promoting the singular they. 

Sure. And many don't. Oftentimes common usage dictates acceptance (E.g. Irregardless, regardless of the convoluted structure which would actually make it mean 'with regard' -- the opposite of the intended meaning). Just because it ends up in a dictionary doesn't mean it makes sense to people who care about words (and I believe you previously stated that words matter). You are certainly welcome to accept nonsensical words that Webster may also have accepted due to common usage. I don't quite so readily, which is the basis of my disinterest in bastardizing the language to placate a few crusaders.  While introducing a new word might require some effort, for me changing the meaning of an existing, common word, or bastardizing the rules of grammar requires more effort. What happened to "Hir", "Ze" and "Zir?"

And apologies regarding the homophobe accusation. You technically did not call Brian that. But you were relentless in pointing out your offense to him without being particularly instructive. It was apparent to most forum readers that Brian was not intending offense. You took what could have been an opportunity to educate and/or explain, and instead hurled insults and feigned offense, which is how you also seemed to respond to just about every other poster here. That will naturally get hackles raised, and then it is game on. So if your intention was to alienate and insult the group, you've accomplished that. If you intended to instruct and facilitate acceptance, sorry for your luck.