so claiming to be rejecting gender norms, which would include, but not limited to, clothing, appearance in general, toys, etc. yet, the choosing of the name needs to be gender neutral. why? if you are so progressive and smashing through the glass ceiling that is gender traditions, why go with what traditional gender roles define as a gender neutral name? isn't that going along with gender norms? what's wrong with cynthia or gladys as a name if the child chooses to be a boy? it shouldn't matter, after all, no matter what the child chooses, if the kid is perfectly comfortable in their own skin and identity at age 3, well, then, what's the problem?
and if the kid wants to change/choose their gender, why does name even matter? let the kid choose! i would imagine name is the least of the issues here.
just name it baby x until it's old enough to crawl to its preferred name on a flash card in between diaper changes.
For precisely the reasons you’ve already detailed: the world is full of shitty people. In most cases, our names stay with us for life.
If you’d ever like to return to a conversation with me, let me know. For now it seems you’re content to keep bludgeoning your straw man.
I think the straw persons gender has yet to be chosen.
It's really awesome that the person who created this thread is now just throwing around a bunch of one-liners mocking transgender, non-binary, and gender fluid people. Glad to know you had good intentions.
He started a troll-thread about Sweden just because I didn't take his countless oneliner-baits about Sweden in the Democratic Nominee-thread.
This is his MO.
no, I suggested to you several times to start one. Seems to work well for our Canadian friends. You wouldnt, so I did. now we can all learn.
I'm perplexed though. You are to my knowledge not allowed to vote in the country. So you can according to you not participate in any discussions. So starting the thread is very weird.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,781
so claiming to be rejecting gender norms, which would include, but not limited to, clothing, appearance in general, toys, etc. yet, the choosing of the name needs to be gender neutral. why? if you are so progressive and smashing through the glass ceiling that is gender traditions, why go with what traditional gender roles define as a gender neutral name? isn't that going along with gender norms? what's wrong with cynthia or gladys as a name if the child chooses to be a boy? it shouldn't matter, after all, no matter what the child chooses, if the kid is perfectly comfortable in their own skin and identity at age 3, well, then, what's the problem?
and if the kid wants to change/choose their gender, why does name even matter? let the kid choose! i would imagine name is the least of the issues here.
just name it baby x until it's old enough to crawl to its preferred name on a flash card in between diaper changes.
For precisely the reasons you’ve already detailed: the world is full of shitty people. In most cases, our names stay with us for life.
If you’d ever like to return to a conversation with me, let me know. For now it seems you’re content to keep bludgeoning your straw man.
I think the straw persons gender has yet to be chosen.
It's really awesome that the person who created this thread is now just throwing around a bunch of one-liners mocking transgender, non-binary, and gender fluid people. Glad to know you had good intentions.
He started a troll-thread about Sweden just because I didn't take his countless oneliner-baits about Sweden in the Democratic Nominee-thread.
This is his MO.
no, I suggested to you several times to start one. Seems to work well for our Canadian friends. You wouldnt, so I did. now we can all learn.
I'm perplexed though. You are to my knowledge not allowed to vote in the country. So you can according to you not participate in any discussions. So starting the thread is very weird.
participating in a discussion is different than actively promoting a candidate, then promoting another, then another only to shift back when polls seem to suggest something.
so, I know jack shit about sweden and its politics. past or present. instead of the dick measuring you've participated in in regards to how great sweden is politically and socially, tou know have a place to show us how, in swedens own right, as opposed to comparison.
I have downloaded some news apps to learn more about current affairs there and in europe at large. my first post there was about the europe wide rise in WHITE nationalism. Its a problem , no? Particularly when these groups are at the table legislatively. Thats a problem, no?
So its honest, that thread. Obviously I have no control over what others post in any thread I've begun or participate in. Your fellow Swede Annafalk popped in. Hope she contributes. She seems like good people from what I have seen her post elsewhere.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
so claiming to be rejecting gender norms, which would include, but not limited to, clothing, appearance in general, toys, etc. yet, the choosing of the name needs to be gender neutral. why? if you are so progressive and smashing through the glass ceiling that is gender traditions, why go with what traditional gender roles define as a gender neutral name? isn't that going along with gender norms? what's wrong with cynthia or gladys as a name if the child chooses to be a boy? it shouldn't matter, after all, no matter what the child chooses, if the kid is perfectly comfortable in their own skin and identity at age 3, well, then, what's the problem?
and if the kid wants to change/choose their gender, why does name even matter? let the kid choose! i would imagine name is the least of the issues here.
just name it baby x until it's old enough to crawl to its preferred name on a flash card in between diaper changes.
For precisely the reasons you’ve already detailed: the world is full of shitty people. In most cases, our names stay with us for life.
If you’d ever like to return to a conversation with me, let me know. For now it seems you’re content to keep bludgeoning your straw man.
I think the straw persons gender has yet to be chosen.
It's really awesome that the person who created this thread is now just throwing around a bunch of one-liners mocking transgender, non-binary, and gender fluid people. Glad to know you had good intentions.
He started a troll-thread about Sweden just because I didn't take his countless oneliner-baits about Sweden in the Democratic Nominee-thread.
This is his MO.
no, I suggested to you several times to start one. Seems to work well for our Canadian friends. You wouldnt, so I did. now we can all learn.
I'm perplexed though. You are to my knowledge not allowed to vote in the country. So you can according to you not participate in any discussions. So starting the thread is very weird.
participating in a discussion is different than actively promoting a candidate, then promoting another, then another only to shift back when polls seem to suggest something.
so, I know jack shit about sweden and its politics. past or present. instead of the dick measuring you've participated in in regards to how great sweden is politically and socially, tou know have a place to show us how, in swedens own right, as opposed to comparison.
I have downloaded some news apps to learn more about current affairs there and in europe at large. my first post there was about the europe wide rise in WHITE nationalism. Its a problem , no? Particularly when these groups are at the table legislatively. Thats a problem, no?
So its honest, that thread. Obviously I have no control over what others post in any thread I've begun or participate in. Your fellow Swede Annafalk popped in. Hope she contributes. She seems like good people from what I have seen her post elsewhere.
Trust me on this or dont, not my problem.
Different primarily, I presume, in that you think one is ok and the other isn't.
I am not sure if I dislike or like this thread at this point...
I think I've learned some things. I also think that my dislike of a certain manner of discussion has been proven closer to a hate. Regarding transgendered, I still have a long way to go if I hope to be a true advocate. Cause I do get annoyed at all the labeling we do to say we shouldn't label. Bottom line I wish people could be who they are and do what they want (so long as it isn't negatively impacting others). I'm thankful that my kid seems to identify with her sex and it has been pretty apparent for a long time. Cause that isn't an easy road to walk if you don't.
hippiemom = goodness
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,781
I am not sure if I dislike or like this thread at this point...
I think I've learned some things. I also think that my dislike of a certain manner of discussion has been proven closer to a hate. Regarding transgendered, I still have a long way to go if I hope to be a true advocate. Cause I do get annoyed at all the labeling we do to say we shouldn't label. Bottom line I wish people could be who they are and do what they want (so long as it isn't negatively impacting others). I'm thankful that my kid seems to identify with her sex and it has been pretty apparent for a long time. Cause that isn't an easy road to walk if you don't.
same, except for the "my kids" part. blessed to be denied that joy.
be who you are. freely. fully. need help fucking somebody up who doesnt respect that, holler. I can summon Lucca Brazzi if needed.....
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I am not sure if I dislike or like this thread at this point...
I think I've learned some things. I also think that my dislike of a certain manner of discussion has been proven closer to a hate. Regarding transgendered, I still have a long way to go if I hope to be a true advocate. Cause I do get annoyed at all the labeling we do to say we shouldn't label. Bottom line I wish people could be who they are and do what they want (so long as it isn't negatively impacting others). I'm thankful that my kid seems to identify with her sex and it has been pretty apparent for a long time. Cause that isn't an easy road to walk if you don't.
same, except for the "my kids" part. blessed to be denied that joy.
be who you are. freely. fully. need help fucking somebody up who doesnt respect that, holler. I can summon Lucca Brazzi if needed.....
I've asked repeatedly for your help.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,781
I am not sure if I dislike or like this thread at this point...
I think I've learned some things. I also think that my dislike of a certain manner of discussion has been proven closer to a hate. Regarding transgendered, I still have a long way to go if I hope to be a true advocate. Cause I do get annoyed at all the labeling we do to say we shouldn't label. Bottom line I wish people could be who they are and do what they want (so long as it isn't negatively impacting others). I'm thankful that my kid seems to identify with her sex and it has been pretty apparent for a long time. Cause that isn't an easy road to walk if you don't.
same, except for the "my kids" part. blessed to be denied that joy.
be who you are. freely. fully. need help fucking somebody up who doesnt respect that, holler. I can summon Lucca Brazzi if needed.....
I've asked repeatedly for your help.
you're a trans person at risk of physical violence? no? then talk your way out. sought to be cool , learn about you. you stepped up to the line then backed out. we do have a couple things in common. where we seem to differ is the willingness to admit error.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I am not sure if I dislike or like this thread at this point...
I think I've learned some things. I also think that my dislike of a certain manner of discussion has been proven closer to a hate. Regarding transgendered, I still have a long way to go if I hope to be a true advocate. Cause I do get annoyed at all the labeling we do to say we shouldn't label. Bottom line I wish people could be who they are and do what they want (so long as it isn't negatively impacting others). I'm thankful that my kid seems to identify with her sex and it has been pretty apparent for a long time. Cause that isn't an easy road to walk if you don't.
same, except for the "my kids" part. blessed to be denied that joy.
be who you are. freely. fully. need help fucking somebody up who doesnt respect that, holler. I can summon Lucca Brazzi if needed.....
I've asked repeatedly for your help.
you're a trans person at risk of physical violence? no? then talk your way out. sought to be cool , learn about you. you stepped up to the line then backed out. we do have a couple things in common. where we seem to differ is the willingness to admit error.
still waiting for your story.......
I've given a fair amount of my story here; what else do you want to know?
Grew up dirt poor and super religious in a town renowned for its lack of diversity. Dropped out of HS during my junior year. Ended up going to a super-religious school for my undergrad. That's where my views of things began to shift--almost got thrown out for that very reason. Worked a bunch of shit jobs after that, did some drug trials and sold plasma to pay the very few bills I had. During that time, my politics began to take shape. It wasn't easy, because I didn't encounter many people who would call me on my lingering bullshit. Eventually, I moved to the town where I got my PhD and met my wife. That's the first place I was constantly around people who would say "wtf is wrong with you?" So, the evolution happened quicker then.
Anything else?
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,781
lacking in details, the epiphanies and the like. what was the game changer. something profound had to occured. no? A single paragraph for , you said a 15 yr journey?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
lacking in details, the epiphanies and the like. what was the game changer. something profound had to occured. no? A single paragraph for , you said a 15 yr journey?
I don’t think I can provide a full list of the times someone saw or heard me do/say something and responded “not fucking cool.”
lacking in details, the epiphanies and the like. what was the game changer. something profound had to occured. no? A single paragraph for , you said a 15 yr journey?
I don’t think I can provide a full list of the times someone saw or heard me do/say something and responded “not fucking cool.”
lacking in details, the epiphanies and the like. what was the game changer. something profound had to occured. no? A single paragraph for , you said a 15 yr journey?
I don’t think I can provide a full list of the times someone saw or heard me do/say something and responded “not fucking cool.”
You can start with your comments in this forum.
I keed I keed.
😆
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,781
lacking in details, the epiphanies and the like. what was the game changer. something profound had to occured. no? A single paragraph for , you said a 15 yr journey?
I don’t think I can provide a full list of the times someone saw or heard me do/say something and responded “not fucking cool.”
no realizations arrived at on your own to share? something someone said, dimissed but clicked later?
It appears you choose not to go into some detail.
I'll leave it at that then. your experience could have been a better teacher than you may know. Oh well......
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
lacking in details, the epiphanies and the like. what was the game changer. something profound had to occured. no? A single paragraph for , you said a 15 yr journey?
I don’t think I can provide a full list of the times someone saw or heard me do/say something and responded “not fucking cool.”
no realizations arrived at on your own to share? something someone said, dimissed but clicked later?
It appears you choose not to go into some detail.
I'll leave it at that then. your experience could have been a better teacher than you may know. Oh well......
Maybe you can just skip to the point you want to make? You’re obviously waiting for me to say something (that I’m not going to say) so you can pounce.
I think for most it starts with being confronted directly in your own life. And I think this is what is helping people get to a better spot earlier in life now.
For me it wasn't until college when I hung out with someone that was LBGT. Well I should say, openly so. Until it's right in front of you, you tend to take more of a 'head' first approach based on what you were taught. When confronted in your life, you see the bullshit behind some of what you were taught and start to question the rest. You also start to include the "heart" in your decision making. From then on it's a learning experience everyday cause it's a world you don;t really live in and do not touch as often as the world you use to come from. So you have to be purposeful and seeking out information. And it's another big turn the first time you confront someone else for being either ignorant or just an asshole. But it does evolve overtime. And people that care are going to still screw up.
I think it might be overcompensation for such a strict upbringing and ultimately a non-issue because the child with come into their identity regardless of how they are raised. If they identify around 3 years old, I'm thinking it happens pretty quick. I think the openness of raising neutral might be better available at a later age as they experiment sexually.
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,719
so claiming to be rejecting gender norms, which would include, but not limited to, clothing, appearance in general, toys, etc. yet, the choosing of the name needs to be gender neutral. why? if you are so progressive and smashing through the glass ceiling that is gender traditions, why go with what traditional gender roles define as a gender neutral name? isn't that going along with gender norms? what's wrong with cynthia or gladys as a name if the child chooses to be a boy? it shouldn't matter, after all, no matter what the child chooses, if the kid is perfectly comfortable in their own skin and identity at age 3, well, then, what's the problem?
and if the kid wants to change/choose their gender, why does name even matter? let the kid choose! i would imagine name is the least of the issues here.
just name it baby x until it's old enough to crawl to its preferred name on a flash card in between diaper changes.
Or do what Wavy Gravy did and name the boy something beyond gender neutral: Howdy Do-Good Gravy Tomahawk Truckstop Romney.
It seems fucked up to me to not acknowledge a kids gender. Why set them up to have their heads messed with that way? That doesn't mean you can't let them express themselves in individual ways. As a toddler, I had a girl doll for a few years, a typical "girls toy". I didn't care, I liked dragging it around along with my blanket. I was Schroeder with a doll. Some time later on, I discovered that it was more interesting to make model airplanes, attach them to a string, and fly them around in a circle with lit firecrackers attached to the fuselage. Given the chance, kids figure out what shit works for them.
Acknowledging a child’s gender is exactly what I’m advocating. Can’t acknowledge it until you know what it is.
Acknowledging a child's gender- yeah that's a tough one. But I'll help you out- here's how it's done....
Oh for crying out loud... this place...
COFFEE!!!
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,781
Would expect court challenge for sure. And this bill also raises worthy discussion behind medical ethics for transitioning minors be it hormones including blockers up to surgical intervention....
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Would expect court challenge for sure. And this bill also raises worthy discussion behind medical ethics for transitioning minors be it hormones including blockers up to surgical intervention....
The article, and probably the bill, seems to conflate a few different things, maybe deliberately so.
Hormonal blockers are used to delay the onset of puberty in trans individuals for exactly the reason that these conservative nutjobs claim to be in favour of - letting the individual gain more cognitive maturity and time to really consider if they want other biological therapies. They are minimally intrusive, as when they are stopped puberty proceeds as it would have at an earlier age. If the proponents of this bill were actually consistent in their ideologies they would be in favour of hormonal blockers in order to delay or possibly even prevent the use of more intrusive measures, so that fact that they want to ban them, too, just highlights the hypocrisy.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
i have read what was written. no point was missed. people here need to come to the realization that just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean a point was missed, or, as dignin so elegantly put it, as usual, is "fucking weak".
So you didn’t miss the part where I explained that gender expression starts around 3 years old?
I remember you pointing that out. As a father of two boys, one who just turned 3 a few months ago, this sounds about right. Also lines up with all my family and friends experiences who have kids around a similar age.
So most kids will be expressing their gender well before they encounter the roving gangs of cruel five-year-olds.
first, the 5 year old thing was talking about identity, not bullying. but that doesn't match up with the attempt at clever quips.
second, i guess we can tell all those people out there transitioning at age 17, 22, 35, 47, and 69, that they are well behind the curve of modern 3 year olds.
I think this and similar posts show a lack of understanding of what ecdanc is proposing. He's not talking about raising the child in a gender neutral fashion forever, just until the child starts to express/generate their own gender identity, at which point they will raise the child congruent with that gender (presumably while trying to avoid gender stereotypes). All the talk about the child or its little compatriots being "confused" by the lack of gender expectations misses the point, which is that infants and toddlers and preschoolers generally aren't confused by this, or more precisely, they are as confused by this as they are by pretty much everything else, because it's all new and they are just trying to absorb it all. There isn't really any bullying at this age, at least for anything other than "I want that toy so I'm going to take it". By the time the kids reach the age where bullying about perceived differences starts, the child will be expressing their gender identity already.
Those people of 17, 22, 35 or 69 that you're using as examples - they're exactly the ones that would have benefited from this approach. They wouldn't have had to struggle for years or decades with incongruencies between their assigned gender and the gender they perceive themselves to be.
my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 35,781
i have read what was written. no point was missed. people here need to come to the realization that just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean a point was missed, or, as dignin so elegantly put it, as usual, is "fucking weak".
So you didn’t miss the part where I explained that gender expression starts around 3 years old?
I remember you pointing that out. As a father of two boys, one who just turned 3 a few months ago, this sounds about right. Also lines up with all my family and friends experiences who have kids around a similar age.
So most kids will be expressing their gender well before they encounter the roving gangs of cruel five-year-olds.
first, the 5 year old thing was talking about identity, not bullying. but that doesn't match up with the attempt at clever quips.
second, i guess we can tell all those people out there transitioning at age 17, 22, 35, 47, and 69, that they are well behind the curve of modern 3 year olds.
I think this and similar posts show a lack of understanding of what ecdanc is proposing. He's not talking about raising the child in a gender neutral fashion forever, just until the child starts to express/generate their own gender identity, at which point they will raise the child congruent with that gender (presumably while trying to avoid gender stereotypes). All the talk about the child or its little compatriots being "confused" by the lack of gender expectations misses the point, which is that infants and toddlers and preschoolers generally aren't confused by this, or more precisely, they are as confused by this as they are by pretty much everything else, because it's all new and they are just trying to absorb it all. There isn't really any bullying at this age, at least for anything other than "I want that toy so I'm going to take it". By the time the kids reach the age where bullying about perceived differences starts, the child will be expressing their gender identity already.
Those people of 17, 22, 35 or 69 that you're using as examples - they're exactly the ones that would have benefited from this approach. They wouldn't have had to struggle for years or decades with incongruencies between their assigned gender and the gender they perceive themselves to be.
you my friend are a far better advocate for these and other issues....
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
i have read what was written. no point was missed. people here need to come to the realization that just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean a point was missed, or, as dignin so elegantly put it, as usual, is "fucking weak".
So you didn’t miss the part where I explained that gender expression starts around 3 years old?
I remember you pointing that out. As a father of two boys, one who just turned 3 a few months ago, this sounds about right. Also lines up with all my family and friends experiences who have kids around a similar age.
So most kids will be expressing their gender well before they encounter the roving gangs of cruel five-year-olds.
first, the 5 year old thing was talking about identity, not bullying. but that doesn't match up with the attempt at clever quips.
second, i guess we can tell all those people out there transitioning at age 17, 22, 35, 47, and 69, that they are well behind the curve of modern 3 year olds.
I think this and similar posts show a lack of understanding of what ecdanc is proposing. He's not talking about raising the child in a gender neutral fashion forever, just until the child starts to express/generate their own gender identity, at which point they will raise the child congruent with that gender (presumably while trying to avoid gender stereotypes). All the talk about the child or its little compatriots being "confused" by the lack of gender expectations misses the point, which is that infants and toddlers and preschoolers generally aren't confused by this, or more precisely, they are as confused by this as they are by pretty much everything else, because it's all new and they are just trying to absorb it all. There isn't really any bullying at this age, at least for anything other than "I want that toy so I'm going to take it". By the time the kids reach the age where bullying about perceived differences starts, the child will be expressing their gender identity already.
Those people of 17, 22, 35 or 69 that you're using as examples - they're exactly the ones that would have benefited from this approach. They wouldn't have had to struggle for years or decades with incongruencies between their assigned gender and the gender they perceive themselves to be.
you my friend are a far better advocate for these and other issues....
I feel spoken to. Engaged with.
Not spoken at.
thank you.
And he actually read my posts! (username checks out)
i have read what was written. no point was missed. people here need to come to the realization that just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean a point was missed, or, as dignin so elegantly put it, as usual, is "fucking weak".
So you didn’t miss the part where I explained that gender expression starts around 3 years old?
I remember you pointing that out. As a father of two boys, one who just turned 3 a few months ago, this sounds about right. Also lines up with all my family and friends experiences who have kids around a similar age.
So most kids will be expressing their gender well before they encounter the roving gangs of cruel five-year-olds.
first, the 5 year old thing was talking about identity, not bullying. but that doesn't match up with the attempt at clever quips.
second, i guess we can tell all those people out there transitioning at age 17, 22, 35, 47, and 69, that they are well behind the curve of modern 3 year olds.
I think this and similar posts show a lack of understanding of what ecdanc is proposing. He's not talking about raising the child in a gender neutral fashion forever, just until the child starts to express/generate their own gender identity, at which point they will raise the child congruent with that gender (presumably while trying to avoid gender stereotypes). All the talk about the child or its little compatriots being "confused" by the lack of gender expectations misses the point, which is that infants and toddlers and preschoolers generally aren't confused by this, or more precisely, they are as confused by this as they are by pretty much everything else, because it's all new and they are just trying to absorb it all. There isn't really any bullying at this age, at least for anything other than "I want that toy so I'm going to take it". By the time the kids reach the age where bullying about perceived differences starts, the child will be expressing their gender identity already.
Those people of 17, 22, 35 or 69 that you're using as examples - they're exactly the ones that would have benefited from this approach. They wouldn't have had to struggle for years or decades with incongruencies between their assigned gender and the gender they perceive themselves to be.
you my friend are a far better advocate for these and other issues....
I feel spoken to. Engaged with.
Not spoken at.
thank you.
And he actually read my posts! (username checks out)
Thanks, oftenreading.
Are you this defensive about your general lack of clarity in a classroom setting as well? This has nothing to do with the reading audience, which hasn't changed, and everything to do with the author.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
i have read what was written. no point was missed. people here need to come to the realization that just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean a point was missed, or, as dignin so elegantly put it, as usual, is "fucking weak".
So you didn’t miss the part where I explained that gender expression starts around 3 years old?
I remember you pointing that out. As a father of two boys, one who just turned 3 a few months ago, this sounds about right. Also lines up with all my family and friends experiences who have kids around a similar age.
So most kids will be expressing their gender well before they encounter the roving gangs of cruel five-year-olds.
first, the 5 year old thing was talking about identity, not bullying. but that doesn't match up with the attempt at clever quips.
second, i guess we can tell all those people out there transitioning at age 17, 22, 35, 47, and 69, that they are well behind the curve of modern 3 year olds.
I think this and similar posts show a lack of understanding of what ecdanc is proposing. He's not talking about raising the child in a gender neutral fashion forever, just until the child starts to express/generate their own gender identity, at which point they will raise the child congruent with that gender (presumably while trying to avoid gender stereotypes). All the talk about the child or its little compatriots being "confused" by the lack of gender expectations misses the point, which is that infants and toddlers and preschoolers generally aren't confused by this, or more precisely, they are as confused by this as they are by pretty much everything else, because it's all new and they are just trying to absorb it all. There isn't really any bullying at this age, at least for anything other than "I want that toy so I'm going to take it". By the time the kids reach the age where bullying about perceived differences starts, the child will be expressing their gender identity already.
Those people of 17, 22, 35 or 69 that you're using as examples - they're exactly the ones that would have benefited from this approach. They wouldn't have had to struggle for years or decades with incongruencies between their assigned gender and the gender they perceive themselves to be.
you my friend are a far better advocate for these and other issues....
I feel spoken to. Engaged with.
Not spoken at.
thank you.
And he actually read my posts! (username checks out)
Thanks, oftenreading.
Are you this defensive about your general lack of clarity in a classroom setting as well? This has nothing to do with the reading audience, which hasn't changed, and everything to do with the author.
Dude, fourteen pages ago I said "we're not expecting P to stay gender neutral forever. We're waiting for them to express their gender identity." Was that unclear?
i have read what was written. no point was missed. people here need to come to the realization that just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean a point was missed, or, as dignin so elegantly put it, as usual, is "fucking weak".
So you didn’t miss the part where I explained that gender expression starts around 3 years old?
I remember you pointing that out. As a father of two boys, one who just turned 3 a few months ago, this sounds about right. Also lines up with all my family and friends experiences who have kids around a similar age.
So most kids will be expressing their gender well before they encounter the roving gangs of cruel five-year-olds.
first, the 5 year old thing was talking about identity, not bullying. but that doesn't match up with the attempt at clever quips.
second, i guess we can tell all those people out there transitioning at age 17, 22, 35, 47, and 69, that they are well behind the curve of modern 3 year olds.
I think this and similar posts show a lack of understanding of what ecdanc is proposing. He's not talking about raising the child in a gender neutral fashion forever, just until the child starts to express/generate their own gender identity, at which point they will raise the child congruent with that gender (presumably while trying to avoid gender stereotypes). All the talk about the child or its little compatriots being "confused" by the lack of gender expectations misses the point, which is that infants and toddlers and preschoolers generally aren't confused by this, or more precisely, they are as confused by this as they are by pretty much everything else, because it's all new and they are just trying to absorb it all. There isn't really any bullying at this age, at least for anything other than "I want that toy so I'm going to take it". By the time the kids reach the age where bullying about perceived differences starts, the child will be expressing their gender identity already.
Those people of 17, 22, 35 or 69 that you're using as examples - they're exactly the ones that would have benefited from this approach. They wouldn't have had to struggle for years or decades with incongruencies between their assigned gender and the gender they perceive themselves to be.
you my friend are a far better advocate for these and other issues....
I feel spoken to. Engaged with.
Not spoken at.
thank you.
And he actually read my posts! (username checks out)
Thanks, oftenreading.
Are you this defensive about your general lack of clarity in a classroom setting as well? This has nothing to do with the reading audience, which hasn't changed, and everything to do with the author.
Dude, fourteen pages ago I said "we're not expecting P to stay gender neutral forever. We're waiting for them to express their gender identity." Was that unclear?
my favorite powerup.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,719
edited February 2020
I think some people take this toddler gender business way too seriously. Some parents give their boys toy trucks to play with and girls dolls (I'm a guy and as an infant, I had both)- so what? Some do the opposite. So what? I know a woman who lived next door to a famous drummer who has a son who wanted to wear a pink dress to school the first day he ever went to school. So what? (I though that was funny as hell- cute!) They are infants. They don't give two shits about this stuff. Jesus, just let them be kids.
Post edited by brianlux on
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
I think some of y'all take this toddler gender business way too seriously. Some parents give their boys toy trucks to play with and girls dolls (I'm a guy and as an infant, I had both)- so what? Some do the opposite. So what? I know a woman who lived next door to a famous drummer who has a son who wanted to wear a pink dress to school the first day he ever went to school. So what? (I though that was funny as hell- cute!) They are infants. They don't give two shits about this stuff. Jesus, just let them be kids.
You have a full list of the child-rearing issues we should take seriously and those we shouldn’t?
I think some of y'all take this toddler gender business way too seriously. Some parents give their boys toy trucks to play with and girls dolls (I'm a guy and as an infant, I had both)- so what? Some do the opposite. So what? I know a woman who lived next door to a famous drummer who has a son who wanted to wear a pink dress to school the first day he ever went to school. So what? (I though that was funny as hell- cute!) They are infants. They don't give two shits about this stuff. Jesus, just let them be kids.
Who do you think is taking it too seriously?
The way I see it, the parents being neutral and raising their kids with no pressure to be one or the other are being less serious. Is that how you feel?
I think some of y'all take this toddler gender business way too seriously. Some parents give their boys toy trucks to play with and girls dolls (I'm a guy and as an infant, I had both)- so what? Some do the opposite. So what? I know a woman who lived next door to a famous drummer who has a son who wanted to wear a pink dress to school the first day he ever went to school. So what? (I though that was funny as hell- cute!) They are infants. They don't give two shits about this stuff. Jesus, just let them be kids.
Who do you think is taking it too seriously?
The way I see it, the parents being neutral and raising their kids with no pressure to be one or the other are being less serious. Is that how you feel?
What do you mean by “the parents being neutral....”. The ones using “they” or just the ones willing to go with the flow and have their child ply with whatever they want, etc?
hippiemom = goodness
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,719
I think some of y'all take this toddler gender business way too seriously. Some parents give their boys toy trucks to play with and girls dolls (I'm a guy and as an infant, I had both)- so what? Some do the opposite. So what? I know a woman who lived next door to a famous drummer who has a son who wanted to wear a pink dress to school the first day he ever went to school. So what? (I though that was funny as hell- cute!) They are infants. They don't give two shits about this stuff. Jesus, just let them be kids.
You have a full list of the child-rearing issues we should take seriously and those we shouldn’t?
For infants, take seriously:
Loving them
Good nutrition
Safe and clean environment
The health of the planet (they will inherit this ailing earth)
For infants, don't take serious:
Gender issues. Infants don't give two shits about gender issues.
I think some of y'all take this toddler gender business way too seriously. Some parents give their boys toy trucks to play with and girls dolls (I'm a guy and as an infant, I had both)- so what? Some do the opposite. So what? I know a woman who lived next door to a famous drummer who has a son who wanted to wear a pink dress to school the first day he ever went to school. So what? (I though that was funny as hell- cute!) They are infants. They don't give two shits about this stuff. Jesus, just let them be kids.
Who do you think is taking it too seriously?
The way I see it, the parents being neutral and raising their kids with no pressure to be one or the other are being less serious. Is that how you feel?
I'm only going to talk about the subject. Not in a hurry to get banned.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Comments
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I think I've learned some things. I also think that my dislike of a certain manner of discussion has been proven closer to a hate. Regarding transgendered, I still have a long way to go if I hope to be a true advocate. Cause I do get annoyed at all the labeling we do to say we shouldn't label. Bottom line I wish people could be who they are and do what they want (so long as it isn't negatively impacting others). I'm thankful that my kid seems to identify with her sex and it has been pretty apparent for a long time. Cause that isn't an easy road to walk if you don't.
I can summon Lucca Brazzi if needed.....
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Grew up dirt poor and super religious in a town renowned for its lack of diversity. Dropped out of HS during my junior year. Ended up going to a super-religious school for my undergrad. That's where my views of things began to shift--almost got thrown out for that very reason. Worked a bunch of shit jobs after that, did some drug trials and sold plasma to pay the very few bills I had. During that time, my politics began to take shape. It wasn't easy, because I didn't encounter many people who would call me on my lingering bullshit. Eventually, I moved to the town where I got my PhD and met my wife. That's the first place I was constantly around people who would say "wtf is wrong with you?" So, the evolution happened quicker then.
Anything else?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I keed I keed.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
For me it wasn't until college when I hung out with someone that was LBGT. Well I should say, openly so. Until it's right in front of you, you tend to take more of a 'head' first approach based on what you were taught. When confronted in your life, you see the bullshit behind some of what you were taught and start to question the rest. You also start to include the "heart" in your decision making. From then on it's a learning experience everyday cause it's a world you don;t really live in and do not touch as often as the world you use to come from. So you have to be purposeful and seeking out information. And it's another big turn the first time you confront someone else for being either ignorant or just an asshole. But it does evolve overtime. And people that care are going to still screw up.
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https://www.yahoo.com/gma/south-dakota-lawmakers-pass-bill-blocking-transgender-minors-162800168--abc-news-topstories.html
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
The article, and probably the bill, seems to conflate a few different things, maybe deliberately so.
Hormonal blockers are used to delay the onset of puberty in trans individuals for exactly the reason that these conservative nutjobs claim to be in favour of - letting the individual gain more cognitive maturity and time to really consider if they want other biological therapies. They are minimally intrusive, as when they are stopped puberty proceeds as it would have at an earlier age. If the proponents of this bill were actually consistent in their ideologies they would be in favour of hormonal blockers in order to delay or possibly even prevent the use of more intrusive measures, so that fact that they want to ban them, too, just highlights the hypocrisy.
I think this and similar posts show a lack of understanding of what ecdanc is proposing. He's not talking about raising the child in a gender neutral fashion forever, just until the child starts to express/generate their own gender identity, at which point they will raise the child congruent with that gender (presumably while trying to avoid gender stereotypes). All the talk about the child or its little compatriots being "confused" by the lack of gender expectations misses the point, which is that infants and toddlers and preschoolers generally aren't confused by this, or more precisely, they are as confused by this as they are by pretty much everything else, because it's all new and they are just trying to absorb it all. There isn't really any bullying at this age, at least for anything other than "I want that toy so I'm going to take it". By the time the kids reach the age where bullying about perceived differences starts, the child will be expressing their gender identity already.
Those people of 17, 22, 35 or 69 that you're using as examples - they're exactly the ones that would have benefited from this approach. They wouldn't have had to struggle for years or decades with incongruencies between their assigned gender and the gender they perceive themselves to be.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Thanks, oftenreading.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I think some people take this toddler gender business way too seriously. Some parents give their boys toy trucks to play with and girls dolls (I'm a guy and as an infant, I had both)- so what? Some do the opposite. So what? I know a woman who lived next door to a famous drummer who has a son who wanted to wear a pink dress to school the first day he ever went to school. So what? (I though that was funny as hell- cute!) They are infants. They don't give two shits about this stuff. Jesus, just let them be kids.
The way I see it, the parents being neutral and raising their kids with no pressure to be one or the other are being less serious. Is that how you feel?
I'm only going to talk about the subject. Not in a hurry to get banned.