Abortion-Keep Legal, Yes or No?

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  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,059
    riley540 said:
    As a pro life person, I am going to give insight on why in pro life. 

    I respect everyones views views and understand why people feel the way they do. So please, no name calling and what not. It’s not useful. 

    I will I’ll preface by saying I am not religious, and I am also against the death penalty. 

    The abortion issue is something that took me a lot of reading and time to fall into my stance. I base it fully on science. 

    From what I can gather, the only point upon the growth of a human that is fully individual is the creation of unique DNA which happens at conception. 

    It is is its own being, growing inside of another being. I know the baby relies on the mother, but I relied on mine until I was almost 20 years old, outside of her belly. 

    I just don’t think any human should have a say in another humans death, from conception to death regardless of any crime committed. 

    I dont think men men or women should have any right to end a life. And based on science I think life begins at conception. 

    Just my input. I have no ill will towards the other side of the argument. I’m not a hate filled person. I just researched and came to a conclusion. 

    I think its also also important to remember that there are millions of pro life people in the US, many of which are women as well. 

    And this is totally friendly. I have been along side many of you at shows and waiting in long lines and I’ve always gotten along great with this community. 
    fair assessment. 
  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 6,481
    riley540 said:
    As a pro life person, I am going to give insight on why in pro life. 

    I respect everyones views views and understand why people feel the way they do. So please, no name calling and what not. It’s not useful. 

    I will I’ll preface by saying I am not religious, and I am also against the death penalty. 

    The abortion issue is something that took me a lot of reading and time to fall into my stance. I base it fully on science. 

    From what I can gather, the only point upon the growth of a human that is fully individual is the creation of unique DNA which happens at conception. 

    It is is its own being, growing inside of another being. I know the baby relies on the mother, but I relied on mine until I was almost 20 years old, outside of her belly. 

    I just don’t think any human should have a say in another humans death, from conception to death regardless of any crime committed. 

    I dont think men men or women should have any right to end a life. And based on science I think life begins at conception. 

    Just my input. I have no ill will towards the other side of the argument. I’m not a hate filled person. I just researched and came to a conclusion. 

    I think its also also important to remember that there are millions of pro life people in the US, many of which are women as well. 

    And this is totally friendly. I have been along side many of you at shows and waiting in long lines and I’ve always gotten along great with this community. 
    Thanks for a thought-out explanation. I couldn't disagree more, but respect your view. I do have a few questions... Are you saying this zygote is a person?


    Does this zygote have rights?
    Is it a citizen?
    Is the father on the hook for child support at this point?
    Whose rights supersede the other's in a conflict, the zygote or the mother? We don't have the same dilemma once the zygote is born, but until then, do they have equal rights?

    The moment of conception stance creates a lot of questions for me, since I certainly don't think that fertilized egg has any rights, but if it is a human, and a citizen with full rights, then we'll need a lot more laws and clarifications about its status as a person.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,059
    I think life starts at the heartbeat. My wife and I decided when we got together, that no matter what, we'd never abort. she even said she wouldn't abort if it meant her life was in danger. we never had to make that decision. but I draw the line at forcing my beliefs onto the lives of others. that's why I'm pro choice. 
  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 1,713
    I can see the argument that life begins at conception.  It just doesn't matter to me.  I care more about sentient beings with hopes and dreams than cell masses coming to life.  The loss of a, say, one-month old embryo is simply not tragic.
    1995 Milwaukee
    1998 Alpine, Alpine
    2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston
    2004 Boston, Boston
    2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)
    2011 Alpine, Alpine
    2013 Wrigley
    2014 St. Paul
    2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley
    2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley
  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 2,413
    riley540 said:
    As a pro life person, I am going to give insight on why in pro life. 

    I respect everyones views views and understand why people feel the way they do. So please, no name calling and what not. It’s not useful. 

    I will I’ll preface by saying I am not religious, and I am also against the death penalty. 

    The abortion issue is something that took me a lot of reading and time to fall into my stance. I base it fully on science. 

    From what I can gather, the only point upon the growth of a human that is fully individual is the creation of unique DNA which happens at conception. 

    It is is its own being, growing inside of another being. I know the baby relies on the mother, but I relied on mine until I was almost 20 years old, outside of her belly. 

    I just don’t think any human should have a say in another humans death, from conception to death regardless of any crime committed. 

    I dont think men men or women should have any right to end a life. And based on science I think life begins at conception. 

    Just my input. I have no ill will towards the other side of the argument. I’m not a hate filled person. I just researched and came to a conclusion. 

    I think its also also important to remember that there are millions of pro life people in the US, many of which are women as well. 

    And this is totally friendly. I have been along side many of you at shows and waiting in long lines and I’ve always gotten along great with this community. 
    As an individual I have progressed to believing that it is when there is a heart beating within. But yeah, I held the exact position as you most of my life. 
    Pittsburgh 2013
    Cincinnati 2014
    Greenville 2016
    (Raleigh 2016)
    Columbia 2016
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,189
    edited May 16
    riley540 said:
    As a pro life person, I am going to give insight on why in pro life. 

    I respect everyones views views and understand why people feel the way they do. So please, no name calling and what not. It’s not useful. 

    I will I’ll preface by saying I am not religious, and I am also against the death penalty. 

    The abortion issue is something that took me a lot of reading and time to fall into my stance. I base it fully on science. 

    From what I can gather, the only point upon the growth of a human that is fully individual is the creation of unique DNA which happens at conception. 

    It is is its own being, growing inside of another being. I know the baby relies on the mother, but I relied on mine until I was almost 20 years old, outside of her belly. 

    I just don’t think any human should have a say in another humans death, from conception to death regardless of any crime committed. 

    I dont think men men or women should have any right to end a life. And based on science I think life begins at conception. 

    Just my input. I have no ill will towards the other side of the argument. I’m not a hate filled person. I just researched and came to a conclusion. 

    I think its also also important to remember that there are millions of pro life people in the US, many of which are women as well. 

    And this is totally friendly. I have been along side many of you at shows and waiting in long lines and I’ve always gotten along great with this community. 
    You must feel absolutely devastated about miscarriages then. I mean, women's bodies don't even consider fetuses viable up to 50% of the time. How do you handle that level of tragedy every single day?
    Anyway, there is literally nothing wrong with being pro-life. I think I can gather from your post that you think a woman's body isn't really her own anymore while pregnant? Well, that is a BIG fucking problem, and logically, there is NO moral way to take someone's own body away from them, whether they don't like fetuses dying or not. You relied on your mother after birth outside of her body, and that is not comparable to being inside her body at all, so I'm not sure how that point makes sense. You're free to think that a pregnant woman is murdering a fetus inside of her, but she MUST have the right to do that anyway, and no other person has the right to tell someone what they are allowed to have going on inside of their own internal organs. There is literally no argument or point of view that makes that okay, because the alternative makes slaves out of women.
    (no, I'm not saying this with an angry tone, lol)
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,077
    PJ_Soul said:
    riley540 said:
    As a pro life person, I am going to give insight on why in pro life. 

    I respect everyones views views and understand why people feel the way they do. So please, no name calling and what not. It’s not useful. 

    I will I’ll preface by saying I am not religious, and I am also against the death penalty. 

    The abortion issue is something that took me a lot of reading and time to fall into my stance. I base it fully on science. 

    From what I can gather, the only point upon the growth of a human that is fully individual is the creation of unique DNA which happens at conception. 

    It is is its own being, growing inside of another being. I know the baby relies on the mother, but I relied on mine until I was almost 20 years old, outside of her belly. 

    I just don’t think any human should have a say in another humans death, from conception to death regardless of any crime committed. 

    I dont think men men or women should have any right to end a life. And based on science I think life begins at conception. 

    Just my input. I have no ill will towards the other side of the argument. I’m not a hate filled person. I just researched and came to a conclusion. 

    I think its also also important to remember that there are millions of pro life people in the US, many of which are women as well. 

    And this is totally friendly. I have been along side many of you at shows and waiting in long lines and I’ve always gotten along great with this community. 
    You must feel absolutely devastated about miscarriages then. I mean, women's bodies don't even consider fetuses viable up to 50% of the time. How do you handle that level of tragedy every single day?
    Anyway, there is literally nothing wrong with being pro-life. I think I can gather from your post that you think a woman's body isn't really her own anymore while pregnant? Well, that is a BIG fucking problem, and logically, there is NO moral way to take someone's own body away from them, whether they don't like fetuses dying or not. You relied on your mother after birth outside of her body, and that is not comparable to being inside her body at all, so I'm not sure how that point makes sense. You're free to think that a pregnant woman is murdering a fetus inside of her, but she MUST have the right to do that anyway, and no other person has the right to tell someone what they are allowed to have going on inside of their own internal organs. There is literally no argument or point of view that makes that okay, because the alternative makes slaves out of women.
    (no, I'm not saying this with an angry tone, lol)
    Ah yeah you are. First you were condescending and the angry. I mean, it pretty obvious despite your patented “lol” and edit.

    But, really other than the condescending part its understandable to be angry. Both sides of this are understandably angry cause it really a very different issue for both and easy to see how they cannot understand the other point of view when framed their way.

    I wish we would do all the stuff we should be doing to limit abortions though because that would be actually doable. While having this argument is not doable. 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,189
    PJ_Soul said:
    riley540 said:
    As a pro life person, I am going to give insight on why in pro life. 

    I respect everyones views views and understand why people feel the way they do. So please, no name calling and what not. It’s not useful. 

    I will I’ll preface by saying I am not religious, and I am also against the death penalty. 

    The abortion issue is something that took me a lot of reading and time to fall into my stance. I base it fully on science. 

    From what I can gather, the only point upon the growth of a human that is fully individual is the creation of unique DNA which happens at conception. 

    It is is its own being, growing inside of another being. I know the baby relies on the mother, but I relied on mine until I was almost 20 years old, outside of her belly. 

    I just don’t think any human should have a say in another humans death, from conception to death regardless of any crime committed. 

    I dont think men men or women should have any right to end a life. And based on science I think life begins at conception. 

    Just my input. I have no ill will towards the other side of the argument. I’m not a hate filled person. I just researched and came to a conclusion. 

    I think its also also important to remember that there are millions of pro life people in the US, many of which are women as well. 

    And this is totally friendly. I have been along side many of you at shows and waiting in long lines and I’ve always gotten along great with this community. 
    You must feel absolutely devastated about miscarriages then. I mean, women's bodies don't even consider fetuses viable up to 50% of the time. How do you handle that level of tragedy every single day?
    Anyway, there is literally nothing wrong with being pro-life. I think I can gather from your post that you think a woman's body isn't really her own anymore while pregnant? Well, that is a BIG fucking problem, and logically, there is NO moral way to take someone's own body away from them, whether they don't like fetuses dying or not. You relied on your mother after birth outside of her body, and that is not comparable to being inside her body at all, so I'm not sure how that point makes sense. You're free to think that a pregnant woman is murdering a fetus inside of her, but she MUST have the right to do that anyway, and no other person has the right to tell someone what they are allowed to have going on inside of their own internal organs. There is literally no argument or point of view that makes that okay, because the alternative makes slaves out of women.
    (no, I'm not saying this with an angry tone, lol)
    Ah yeah you are. First you were condescending and the angry. I mean, it pretty obvious despite your patented “lol” and edit.

    But, really other than the condescending part its understandable to be angry. Both sides of this are understandably angry cause it really a very different issue for both and easy to see how they cannot understand the other point of view when framed their way.

    I wish we would do all the stuff we should be doing to limit abortions though because that would be actually doable. While having this argument is not doable. 
    Ah, no I wasn't. I don't lie.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,077
    edited May 16
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    riley540 said:
    As a pro life person, I am going to give insight on why in pro life. 

    I respect everyones views views and understand why people feel the way they do. So please, no name calling and what not. It’s not useful. 

    I will I’ll preface by saying I am not religious, and I am also against the death penalty. 

    The abortion issue is something that took me a lot of reading and time to fall into my stance. I base it fully on science. 

    From what I can gather, the only point upon the growth of a human that is fully individual is the creation of unique DNA which happens at conception. 

    It is is its own being, growing inside of another being. I know the baby relies on the mother, but I relied on mine until I was almost 20 years old, outside of her belly. 

    I just don’t think any human should have a say in another humans death, from conception to death regardless of any crime committed. 

    I dont think men men or women should have any right to end a life. And based on science I think life begins at conception. 

    Just my input. I have no ill will towards the other side of the argument. I’m not a hate filled person. I just researched and came to a conclusion. 

    I think its also also important to remember that there are millions of pro life people in the US, many of which are women as well. 

    And this is totally friendly. I have been along side many of you at shows and waiting in long lines and I’ve always gotten along great with this community. 
    You must feel absolutely devastated about miscarriages then. I mean, women's bodies don't even consider fetuses viable up to 50% of the time. How do you handle that level of tragedy every single day?
    Anyway, there is literally nothing wrong with being pro-life. I think I can gather from your post that you think a woman's body isn't really her own anymore while pregnant? Well, that is a BIG fucking problem, and logically, there is NO moral way to take someone's own body away from them, whether they don't like fetuses dying or not. You relied on your mother after birth outside of her body, and that is not comparable to being inside her body at all, so I'm not sure how that point makes sense. You're free to think that a pregnant woman is murdering a fetus inside of her, but she MUST have the right to do that anyway, and no other person has the right to tell someone what they are allowed to have going on inside of their own internal organs. There is literally no argument or point of view that makes that okay, because the alternative makes slaves out of women.
    (no, I'm not saying this with an angry tone, lol)
    Ah yeah you are. First you were condescending and the angry. I mean, it pretty obvious despite your patented “lol” and edit.

    But, really other than the condescending part its understandable to be angry. Both sides of this are understandably angry cause it really a very different issue for both and easy to see how they cannot understand the other point of view when framed their way.

    I wish we would do all the stuff we should be doing to limit abortions though because that would be actually doable. While having this argument is not doable. 
    Ah, no I wasn't. I don't lie.
    Lol

     Not angry with the poster but you are very clearly angry with the topic, angry with the current trend in the states. 
    Post edited by cincybearcat on
    hippiemom = goodness
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,189
    edited May 16
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    riley540 said:
    As a pro life person, I am going to give insight on why in pro life. 

    I respect everyones views views and understand why people feel the way they do. So please, no name calling and what not. It’s not useful. 

    I will I’ll preface by saying I am not religious, and I am also against the death penalty. 

    The abortion issue is something that took me a lot of reading and time to fall into my stance. I base it fully on science. 

    From what I can gather, the only point upon the growth of a human that is fully individual is the creation of unique DNA which happens at conception. 

    It is is its own being, growing inside of another being. I know the baby relies on the mother, but I relied on mine until I was almost 20 years old, outside of her belly. 

    I just don’t think any human should have a say in another humans death, from conception to death regardless of any crime committed. 

    I dont think men men or women should have any right to end a life. And based on science I think life begins at conception. 

    Just my input. I have no ill will towards the other side of the argument. I’m not a hate filled person. I just researched and came to a conclusion. 

    I think its also also important to remember that there are millions of pro life people in the US, many of which are women as well. 

    And this is totally friendly. I have been along side many of you at shows and waiting in long lines and I’ve always gotten along great with this community. 
    You must feel absolutely devastated about miscarriages then. I mean, women's bodies don't even consider fetuses viable up to 50% of the time. How do you handle that level of tragedy every single day?
    Anyway, there is literally nothing wrong with being pro-life. I think I can gather from your post that you think a woman's body isn't really her own anymore while pregnant? Well, that is a BIG fucking problem, and logically, there is NO moral way to take someone's own body away from them, whether they don't like fetuses dying or not. You relied on your mother after birth outside of her body, and that is not comparable to being inside her body at all, so I'm not sure how that point makes sense. You're free to think that a pregnant woman is murdering a fetus inside of her, but she MUST have the right to do that anyway, and no other person has the right to tell someone what they are allowed to have going on inside of their own internal organs. There is literally no argument or point of view that makes that okay, because the alternative makes slaves out of women.
    (no, I'm not saying this with an angry tone, lol)
    Ah yeah you are. First you were condescending and the angry. I mean, it pretty obvious despite your patented “lol” and edit.

    But, really other than the condescending part its understandable to be angry. Both sides of this are understandably angry cause it really a very different issue for both and easy to see how they cannot understand the other point of view when framed their way.

    I wish we would do all the stuff we should be doing to limit abortions though because that would be actually doable. While having this argument is not doable. 
    Ah, no I wasn't. I don't lie.
    Lol

     Not angry with the poster but you are very clearly angry with the topic, angry with the current trend in the states. 
    Of COURSE I'm angry with the topic and what's going on in the USA right now. I hope everyone is! It all actually makes me completely sick to my stomach, and full of absolute RAGE. And fear. And dismay. Of course.
    (btw, that comment about being devastated by miscarriages.. you mistook it for condescension. It wasn't. I was serious. If someone feels what the poster said, I think that is a legitimate question to ask. The fact that the question also kind of delegitimizes their perspective isn't my fault)
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 2,413
    edited May 16
    It has always amazed me that pro choice is more left leaning. You would think the compassion and progressiveness displayed would carry into this topic. But instead it is turned into a for or against women debate. 

    I wish both genders could have babies. It especially shouldn’t just be the woman who has a say in the discussion to abort or not. It isn’t just your child. (Or child to be ...)
    Post edited by drakeheuer14 on
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  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 47,189
    edited May 16
    It has always amazed me that pro choice is more left leaning. You would think the compassion and progressiveness displayed would carry into this topic. But instead it is turned into a for or against women debate. 

    I wish both genders could have babies. It especially shouldn’t just be the woman who has a say in the discussion to abort or not. It isn’t just your child. (Or child to be ...)
    :confused: I don't understand how a discussion about making abortion illegal could happen without it turning towards a debate for or against women. Huh? Making abortion illegal IS against women, and the vast majority of those driving that change in government are men. So how do you figure the conversation would go any other way? And why does it amaze you that the pro-choice movement is left leaning? Because they get angry when the government tries to take control of women's bodies? I think that is a great reason to get angry and to start fighting ruthlessly. Do you expect the left to have compassion for those who want to hand the government control over women's bodies??
    And yes, whether you wish it weren't the case or not, women are indeed the only ones whose bodies are at risk of being controlled, so obviously they are the only ones who have a say on whether to abort or not. That may not seem fair to some people, but it is what it is, too bad, so sad. Suggesting anything different again only really suggests that women's bodies aren't their own, and I hope it's obvious why that is not an option.
    Post edited by PJ_Soul on
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 6,481
    It has always amazed me that pro choice is more left leaning. You would think the compassion and progressiveness displayed would carry into this topic. But instead it is turned into a for or against women debate. 

    I wish both genders could have babies. It especially shouldn’t just be the woman who has a say in the discussion to abort or not. It isn’t just your child. (Or child to be ...)
    The compassion from me exists, but it is there for the actual human, the woman who deserves the right to self-determination. I can't currently muster compassion for a blob of cells. Women are the focus for the obvious reason. When men start getting pregnant on a recurring basis (there are a few one-offs already), then I'll have compassion for them as well.

    I wish both genders could have babies, too. I wouldn't have any, but it would be a fun exercise to see how quickly some of these laws change.
    https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1129135686160920577

    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,059
    PJ_Soul said:
    It has always amazed me that pro choice is more left leaning. You would think the compassion and progressiveness displayed would carry into this topic. But instead it is turned into a for or against women debate. 

    I wish both genders could have babies. It especially shouldn’t just be the woman who has a say in the discussion to abort or not. It isn’t just your child. (Or child to be ...)
    :confused: I don't understand how a discussion about making abortion illegal could happen without it turning towards a debate for or against women. Huh? Making abortion illegal IS against women, and the vast majority of those driving that change in government are men. So how do you figure the conversation would go any other way? And why does it amaze you that the pro-choice movement is left leaning? Because they get angry when the government tries to take control of women's bodies? I think that is a great reason to get angry and to start fighting ruthlessly. Do you expect the left to have compassion for those who want to hand the government control over women's bodies??
    And yes, whether you wish it weren't the case or not, women are indeed the only ones whose bodies are at risk of being controlled, so obviously they are the only ones who have a say on whether to abort or not. That may not seem fair to some people, but it is what it is, too bad, so sad. Suggesting anything different again only really suggests that women's bodies aren't their own, and I hope it's obvious why that is not an option.
    It's not "against women" for everyone. they just feel that abortion is murdering a human baby, which is a bigger deal to them than their own autonomy. i don't really get this "there is no debate" "it's all black and white" because it's not. 

    i am pro choice because everyone should have their own choice, obviously. but many people believe that abortion is murder, no matter who it is. you can't see that what some perceive as murder to be more serious than having a baby, especially when pregnancy is 100% preventable? i can totally see that side, even though i don't necessarily agree with it.

    now, if it were as a result of rape, then of course, that is a different story. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,059
    and it actually amazes me that republicans are pro life. being 'anti-government making our choices for us' and all. 
  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 1,713
    edited May 16
    PJ_Soul said:
    riley540 said:



    You must feel absolutely devastated about miscarriages then. I mean, women's bodies don't even consider fetuses viable up to 50% of the time. How do you handle that level of tragedy every single day?





    OnWis says:

    stupid quote feature screwed me on the phone...

    ..,,there’s some snark here, it’s still kind of an interesting point; if abortion is murder, then should we be devastated about miscarriage? Should we put all sorts of funding into prevention the way we do for, say, auto safety regulations?  Airbags are required.  May all pre-menopausal women should be required to adhere to a strict health regimen.  OK, now I’m getting snarky. But in all non-snarky earnestness, I’m not going to be as sad about a stranger’s miscarriage as U am a stranger dying in a traffic collision.  And I’m sure as hell not going to be as sad about the “murder” of a fetus as I am the murder of someone with hopes, dreams, and relationships.
    Post edited by OnWis97 on
    1995 Milwaukee
    1998 Alpine, Alpine
    2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston
    2004 Boston, Boston
    2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)
    2011 Alpine, Alpine
    2013 Wrigley
    2014 St. Paul
    2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley
    2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley
  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 6,481
    and it actually amazes me that republicans are pro life. being 'anti-government making our choices for us' and all. 
    Yeah, that whole anti-government thing is silly. They love the government to tell us who we can marry, tell us we can't make the ultimate determination to end our lives, tell us what we can and can't smoke, tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies, etc... Any actual pro-freedom and liberty state looks pretty blue to me. 
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 1,713
    jeffbr said:
    and it actually amazes me that republicans are pro life. being 'anti-government making our choices for us' and all. 
    Yeah, that whole anti-government thing is silly. They love the government to tell us who we can marry, tell us we can't make the ultimate determination to end our lives, tell us what we can and can't smoke, tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies, etc... Any actual pro-freedom and liberty state looks pretty blue to me. 
    Most people don’t like government involvement...until they do.
    1995 Milwaukee
    1998 Alpine, Alpine
    2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston
    2004 Boston, Boston
    2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)
    2011 Alpine, Alpine
    2013 Wrigley
    2014 St. Paul
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    2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley
  • 1ThoughtKnown1ThoughtKnown Calgary ABPosts: 1,269
    I am so thankful to live in a secular country where religious whack jobs who will do anything to impede social progress are unable to elect populist politicians to enact arcane laws such as the criminalization of abortion.
    i remember the Henry Morgantaler news stories from when I was a kid and even as a 10-12 year old I thought it was insane.

    There is a planned parenthood clinic two blocks from our house. Some church outfit spent the past decade out there across the street with signs peacefully protesting abortions.  I’m getting the impression they know they are fighting a losing battle as they haven’t been out there for a while. 

    Don’t allow the religious right to dictate your laws people. If you need historical proof, research what Afghanistan, Syria and Turkey were like in the 70s.  If it can happen there it can happen anywhere. Morons like Trump exist everywhere. 
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    2013 Calgary Seattle
    2014 Amsterdam1 Trieste Vienna Moline St. Paul
    2015 Santiago Buenos Aires
    2018 Prague Kraków Seattle2 Missoula 
    It's egg rollin' thick and heavy...all the past we carry...
    Oh, I could be new...you underestimate me..
  • 1ThoughtKnown1ThoughtKnown Calgary ABPosts: 1,269
    PJ_Soul said:
    It has always amazed me that pro choice is more left leaning. You would think the compassion and progressiveness displayed would carry into this topic. But instead it is turned into a for or against women debate. 

    I wish both genders could have babies. It especially shouldn’t just be the woman who has a say in the discussion to abort or not. It isn’t just your child. (Or child to be ...)
    :confused: I don't understand how a discussion about making abortion illegal could happen without it turning towards a debate for or against women. Huh? Making abortion illegal IS against women, and the vast majority of those driving that change in government are men. So how do you figure the conversation would go any other way? And why does it amaze you that the pro-choice movement is left leaning? Because they get angry when the government tries to take control of women's bodies? I think that is a great reason to get angry and to start fighting ruthlessly. Do you expect the left to have compassion for those who want to hand the government control over women's bodies??
    And yes, whether you wish it weren't the case or not, women are indeed the only ones whose bodies are at risk of being controlled, so obviously they are the only ones who have a say on whether to abort or not. That may not seem fair to some people, but it is what it is, too bad, so sad. Suggesting anything different again only really suggests that women's bodies aren't their own, and I hope it's obvious why that is not an option.
    It's not "against women" for everyone. they just feel that abortion is murdering a human baby, which is a bigger deal to them than their own autonomy. i don't really get this "there is no debate" "it's all black and white" because it's not. 

    i am pro choice because everyone should have their own choice, obviously. but many people believe that abortion is murder, no matter who it is. you can't see that what some perceive as murder to be more serious than having a baby, especially when pregnancy is 100% preventable? i can totally see that side, even though i don't necessarily agree with it.

    now, if it were as a result of rape, then of course, that is a different story. 
    My grandfather was the result of a rape (a good old Saskatchewan gang rape).  He was almost aborted. Obviously he had strong anti-abortionist opinions.  Had he been aborted I would not even exist. 
    Despite all that.... I’m pro-choice.
    Interestingly, the defence lawyer for those rapists? John Diefenbaker (according to gramps). 
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    2013 Calgary Seattle
    2014 Amsterdam1 Trieste Vienna Moline St. Paul
    2015 Santiago Buenos Aires
    2018 Prague Kraków Seattle2 Missoula 
    It's egg rollin' thick and heavy...all the past we carry...
    Oh, I could be new...you underestimate me..
  • SmellymanSmellyman AsiaPosts: 3,693
    s̶h̶a̶r̶i̶a̶ Christian Law is coming
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,077
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    PJ_Soul said:
    riley540 said:
    As a pro life person, I am going to give insight on why in pro life. 

    I respect everyones views views and understand why people feel the way they do. So please, no name calling and what not. It’s not useful. 

    I will I’ll preface by saying I am not religious, and I am also against the death penalty. 

    The abortion issue is something that took me a lot of reading and time to fall into my stance. I base it fully on science. 

    From what I can gather, the only point upon the growth of a human that is fully individual is the creation of unique DNA which happens at conception. 

    It is is its own being, growing inside of another being. I know the baby relies on the mother, but I relied on mine until I was almost 20 years old, outside of her belly. 

    I just don’t think any human should have a say in another humans death, from conception to death regardless of any crime committed. 

    I dont think men men or women should have any right to end a life. And based on science I think life begins at conception. 

    Just my input. I have no ill will towards the other side of the argument. I’m not a hate filled person. I just researched and came to a conclusion. 

    I think its also also important to remember that there are millions of pro life people in the US, many of which are women as well. 

    And this is totally friendly. I have been along side many of you at shows and waiting in long lines and I’ve always gotten along great with this community. 
    You must feel absolutely devastated about miscarriages then. I mean, women's bodies don't even consider fetuses viable up to 50% of the time. How do you handle that level of tragedy every single day?
    Anyway, there is literally nothing wrong with being pro-life. I think I can gather from your post that you think a woman's body isn't really her own anymore while pregnant? Well, that is a BIG fucking problem, and logically, there is NO moral way to take someone's own body away from them, whether they don't like fetuses dying or not. You relied on your mother after birth outside of her body, and that is not comparable to being inside her body at all, so I'm not sure how that point makes sense. You're free to think that a pregnant woman is murdering a fetus inside of her, but she MUST have the right to do that anyway, and no other person has the right to tell someone what they are allowed to have going on inside of their own internal organs. There is literally no argument or point of view that makes that okay, because the alternative makes slaves out of women.
    (no, I'm not saying this with an angry tone, lol)
    Ah yeah you are. First you were condescending and the angry. I mean, it pretty obvious despite your patented “lol” and edit.

    But, really other than the condescending part its understandable to be angry. Both sides of this are understandably angry cause it really a very different issue for both and easy to see how they cannot understand the other point of view when framed their way.

    I wish we would do all the stuff we should be doing to limit abortions though because that would be actually doable. While having this argument is not doable. 
    Ah, no I wasn't. I don't lie.
    Lol

     Not angry with the poster but you are very clearly angry with the topic, angry with the current trend in the states. 
    Of COURSE I'm angry with the topic and what's going on in the USA right now. I hope everyone is! It all actually makes me completely sick to my stomach, and full of absolute RAGE. And fear. And dismay. Of course.
    (btw, that comment about being devastated by miscarriages.. you mistook it for condescension. It wasn't. I was serious. If someone feels what the poster said, I think that is a legitimate question to ask. The fact that the question also kind of delegitimizes their perspective isn't my fault)
    I don’t believe it delegitimizes their opinion. Not sure why you do, other than you simply disagree with them.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,077
    jeffbr said:
    and it actually amazes me that republicans are pro life. being 'anti-government making our choices for us' and all. 
    Yeah, that whole anti-government thing is silly. They love the government to tell us who we can marry, tell us we can't make the ultimate determination to end our lives, tell us what we can and can't smoke, tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies, etc... Any actual pro-freedom and liberty state looks pretty blue to me. 
    Yup. It’s the biggest hypocrisy of the right. I really don’t get it, because getting the government out of more of your life seems to be a good thing and you would have thought they’d let that principle guide the party. But they choose the religious right to define their party. 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,077
    and it actually amazes me that republicans are pro life. being 'anti-government making our choices for us' and all. 
    I certainly don’t thin the pro-life opinion fits the narrative for hypocrisy here though. I mean, all those same people likely support the government locking up murders...and to them it’s a similar result 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 14,858
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


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  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 12,077
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    hippiemom = goodness
  • JPPJ84JPPJ84 Hamburg, Germany Posts: 249
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?
    Main difference is that the choice wasn’t hers
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 9,984
    edited May 17
    mickeyrat said:
    until lungs have developed to oxygenate the blood either on its own or with medical help outside of the womb ,its not life. ..  


    So, honest question, a man causes his girlfriend who is pregnant to lose the baby.  The woman wanted the baby.  Is it just assault?

    Yes, although depends on what you mean by "just assault", as there are varying degrees of assault charges. This could be considered an assault causing bodily harm, thus a higher level of assault. Or assault with a weapon, etc., depending on the circumstances.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
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