My story dealing with several horrible entitled “railbirds” in GA at Wrigley 2

Ledbetterman10 said:

bootlegger10 said:

Oh you hung out on the sidewalk by murphy’s The last two days? That’s odd.  

When I saw someone post that they left during YLB on night one to get in line for night two, I thought I misread it because imy brain couldn’t process that anyone would wait two full days. Insane. 

JH6056 said:

PJNB said:

Is this narrative wrong on what happened?

- Night 1 ends and an unofficial line forms. Security moves them to a location that they are allowed to form the line and wait to be moved until 8:00am

- You guys show up, know that there is an unofficial line that was made long before you got there and you still push to get ahead of it knowing they camped out right after the show. 

- Security comes, does not give a shit and moves on

I have a couple of questions. If you knew that people were there way before you, 8:00am lineup time or not, why did you feel the need to get ahead of them? I would never have done that myself official line or not.  I am not defending them just find it ballsy to try and slip in like that. Yes 8:00am is the designated time but these people were moved to a section by security and told to wait there until they would all be moved to the official location. In the meantime you guys come in not waiting nearly as much as the others and take the front spot. I can understand how the other group would not be overjoyed by this but them using the list and confrontational attitude is ridiculous. I am not sure what 10 club thought would happen with the 8:00am but it seemed like they were ok with the unofficial line. Posting vids and pics on social media over this was unnecessary as well by them. To have your faces smeared on a page of over 60,000 people was not fair to you or your group. Fuck them for doing that. 

Are you talking to ascahn?  And if you are, how are you completely misreading what he wrote?

The first show, the Aussies were at the front of the line.  The SECOND SHOW, ascahn and his buddies apparently showed up and started the line where the Aussies started it for the 1st show but this was BEFORE the Aussies showed up.  So when the Aussies showed up and found someone had started the line before them, that is when all the chaos and - from what ascahn said - shockingly awful and verging on abusive behavior began and apparently continued through going into the venue the 1st time.

Where are you getting that the SECOND time, ascahn and his friends cut in front of the Aussies?  How did you read ascahn's very detailed account and get your version out of it?

Hopefully you're not indicating that just because a group of fans started a line one way on one night, when they weren't there to start it the 2nd night somehow they still had a right to be in front because they started it early at the previous show?  Because if that's what you're saying... that is all kinds of bizarre and wrong.  And absurdly unfair.

ForceofNature101 said:

Go Beavers said:

ForceofNature101 said:

Go Beavers said:

bootlegger10 said:

Why would I honor a line that starts before 8am if the official line up is not allowed until 8am?    I can’t help what people chose to do and where with their time before 8am.  

Oh you hung out on the sidewalk by murphy’s The last two days? That’s odd.  

That’s the issue. The 8:00 am line isn’t official, that’s an external rule from the venue. What’s official is the informal line that starts however many days prior. If someone’s sleeping on the sidewalk for two days, hell yes they should have the rail. 

Wouldn't the "official" line be whichever one is considered legitimate by the actual venue?  External rules from the venue automatically supercede all else right?

Which is where the tension comes into play. What is “official”? To me, it would be fan determined because I think we should be able to regulate ourselves and I value rewarding those who put in the commitment. It’s kind of like in ye old days when people would camp out to buy tickets. Just because a venue doesn’t want the hassle of campers out front doesn’t determine norms around who has priority. I say we just view it as the line started away at a certain distance from the door. I think we can handle that. 

The issue with fan determined is - what fans determine it?  And what if other fans disagree? 

That is why to me anything that isn't venue or 10C specified should be thrown out and not considered legitimate.  As we have seen by the number queue debacle, letting fans who camp out make the "rules" of GA lines do not have a peaceful easygoing, agreed upon result.  To me the last thing we should consider legitimate is fan-made rules over those of the venue.

Fans, no matter who got there first, do not have any authority over other fans.  That is why venue rules and 10C supercede it, in order for all of this to work in the first place there needs to be order that does not come from the people in line.   Fans are not the people to tell fans what to do in line, that is up to the venue and 10C

JH6056 said:

iwasthere said:

PJNB said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJNB said:

Is this narrative wrong on what happened?

- Night 1 ends and an unofficial line forms. Security moves them to a location that they are allowed to form the line and wait to be moved until 8:00am

- You guys show up, know that there is an unofficial line that was made long before you got there and you still push to get ahead of it knowing they camped out right after the show. 

- Security comes, does not give a shit and moves on

I have a couple of questions. If you knew that people were there way before you, 8:00am lineup time or not, why did you feel the need to get ahead of them? I would never have done that myself official line or not.  I am not defending them just find it ballsy to try and slip in like that. Yes 8:00am is the designated time but these people were moved to a section by security and told to wait there until they would all be moved to the official location. In the meantime you guys come in not waiting nearly as much as the others and take the front spot. I can understand how the other group would not be overjoyed by this but them using the list and confrontational attitude is ridiculous. I am not sure what 10 club thought would happen with the 8:00am but it seemed like they were ok with the unofficial line. Posting vids and pics on social media over this was unnecessary as well by them. To have your faces smeared on a page of over 60,000 people was not fair to you or your group. Fuck them for doing that. 

IMO, the second that group created a list, they lost their right to that spot in their illegitimate line, as per 10C rules. Technically, all of them should have been sent to the back of the line.

Agree 100% @iwasthere did the list actually happen? Also the line may have been illegitimate but security made it legitimate imo when they moved it to an ok location and told them they would comeback to move them before 8:00am

I was 6th in line and was in middle of all of it. That's how it happened. I think ascahn has a right to be upset with many of the large group at 4am. But their group was 9 hours early showing up 11pm to participate in the unofficial line too. There was less than 20 at that time. We told them what was up. They should have been behind that group. They just didnt have anyone come tell them to move from that spot and we had been that morning.

So let me see if I understand this: When ascahn and his friends showed up and sat down, there was NO ONE sitting in front of them.  You're saying there were others around, but who'd been told to move, so they were elsewhere, across the street?  But not where ascahn sat.

Is that what you're saying?  And if everyone was breaking the rules, why should ascahn have to get up and give up their seats to others who were around but not seated, regardless of why they weren't seated?  At some point doesn't this whole Lord of the Flies scene amount to whoever is lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time "starts the line"?  

Again, I don't even do GA, but the politics and psychology and rationales of all this is very interesting.  And a bit troubling.

ForceofNature101 said:

Go Beavers said:

Again, the 8:00 am line up rule is set by an outisde authority, why should that take precedent over the group established rule of whoever gets there first is first in line? 

I guess for me, personally all in all I don't see venue rules and policy as "outside authority", I see it as THE authority, so to speak.  And if their line and whoever gets there first is the only line they consider official, the people who get to that line first, in this case ascahn, their place in line is (IMO) as legitimate as anything else

Go Beavers said:

ForceofNature101 said:

Go Beavers said:

ForceofNature101 said:

Go Beavers said:

bootlegger10 said:

Why would I honor a line that starts before 8am if the official line up is not allowed until 8am?    I can’t help what people chose to do and where with their time before 8am.  

Oh you hung out on the sidewalk by murphy’s The last two days? That’s odd.  

That’s the issue. The 8:00 am line isn’t official, that’s an external rule from the venue. What’s official is the informal line that starts however many days prior. If someone’s sleeping on the sidewalk for two days, hell yes they should have the rail. 

Wouldn't the "official" line be whichever one is considered legitimate by the actual venue?  External rules from the venue automatically supercede all else right?

Which is where the tension comes into play. What is “official”? To me, it would be fan determined because I think we should be able to regulate ourselves and I value rewarding those who put in the commitment. It’s kind of like in ye old days when people would camp out to buy tickets. Just because a venue doesn’t want the hassle of campers out front doesn’t determine norms around who has priority. I say we just view it as the line started away at a certain distance from the door. I think we can handle that. 

The issue with fan determined is - what fans determine it?  And what if other fans disagree? 

That is why to me anything that isn't venue or 10C specified should be thrown out and not considered legitimate.  As we have seen by the number queue debacle, letting fans who camp out make the "rules" of GA lines do not have a peaceful easygoing, agreed upon result.  To me the last thing we should consider legitimate is fan-made rules over those of the venue.

Fans, no matter who got there first, do not have any authority over other fans.  That is why venue rules and 10C supercede it, in order for all of this to work in the first place there needs to be order that does not come from the people in line.   Fans are not the people to tell fans what to do in line, that is up to the venue and 10C

Good question about creating rules and who polices the rules. I’m coming at it from the angle of historical norms over time and also the fact that in GA, we’re policing ourselves by and large. If you’re in a mob of several thousand people, security is largly irrelevant (except on the edges). The group manages itself without outside intervention (unless Ed sees you being an aggressive ay hole!) I feel that this should carry over into rules and norms prior to the show. I don’t think I’m being weird. It’s pretty easy: people camped out, so they’re in the front of the line. I’m walking to the ga line at 4:50, I find the end of the line and get in it. We have cultural norms about cueing already, so I don’t I’m too far from that. 

The 10c chiming in on numbered lists is
fine, but I think that was largely determined to be bullshit already. Again, the 8:00 am line up rule is set by an outisde authority, why should that take precedent over the group established rule of whoever gets there first is first in line? 

PJNB said:

ForceofNature101 said:

Go Beavers said:

Again, the 8:00 am line up rule is set by an outisde authority, why should that take precedent over the group established rule of whoever gets there first is first in line? 

I guess for me, personally all in all I don't see venue rules and policy as "outside authority", I see it as THE authority, so to speak.  And if their line and whoever gets there first is the only line they consider official, the people who get to that line first, in this case ascahn, their place in line is (IMO) as legitimate as anything else

I have no clue why I am still talking about this but they were not the first in that line. The first in that line was moved by THE authority to another designated spot. 24 hours later his group claims that spot that was not allowed by group #1 but no security is there to move them. Are they lucky to get it and no authority is moving them or are they dicks for knowing others were in that spot but got moved. This is a question that will haunt us for years to come. 

ForceofNature101 said:

PJNB said:

ForceofNature101 said:

Go Beavers said:

Again, the 8:00 am line up rule is set by an outisde authority, why should that take precedent over the group established rule of whoever gets there first is first in line? 

I guess for me, personally all in all I don't see venue rules and policy as "outside authority", I see it as THE authority, so to speak.  And if their line and whoever gets there first is the only line they consider official, the people who get to that line first, in this case ascahn, their place in line is (IMO) as legitimate as anything else

I have no clue why I am still talking about this but they were not the first in that line. The first in that line was moved by THE authority to another designated spot. 24 hours later his group claims that spot that was not allowed by group #1 but no security is there to move them. Are they lucky to get it and no authority is moving them or are they dicks for knowing others were in that spot but got moved. This is a question that will haunt us for years to come. 

Did the venue specifically tell them "hey you guys are the first in line but we are moving you here" or did they go "we are moving you guys here because there technically is no line until 8am, but you guys are welcome to camp out over here for the chance to be first when the line starts"?

To me, based on the information given, the line did not start until 8am, and whoever physically is first in that 8am line when 8am starts, is first in line.